Why am I so perverse?

November 18, 2007 10:40 AM

Why do I purposefully choose to go ahead and do what I know is wrong and/or a Bad Idea?

Recently I think I've finally put my finger on why it is that I constantly find myself in bad situations, such as hurting other people, endangering my own and other's health, and just in general acting like a major ass: I like making that bad decision. I have that little voice inside that tells me more or less when things are right or wrong, and after listening well, I then go ahead and choose "wrong."

To give you concrete examples: I frequently have one-night stands with people I don't really like, and who are often emotionally unstable, and/or who are already in relationships with other people. At times I haven't used protection. I've quit using drugs, but until recently, I would smoke that bowl before the test, or do that line and stay up till the wee hours despite that paper due the next day, or having to work the next morning. I'll take that last shot, the one I know is going to send me over the edge to where I'm hitting on friend's girlfriends, getting sick, and just in general making an ass of myself. After these sorts of incidents, the result is invariably feelings of guilt and shame, days of wondering if I'm actually just a "bad guy." I'm leaving a trail of broken relationships and disgusted ex-friends.

Again, it's not that I don't know what I'm doing. I can literally pinpoint when I'm thinking to myself "this is a Bad Idea," and feel the perverse sense of resolve which says "good."

As I said, I've been off drugs for a while now, and furthermore I've been seeing a therapist and taking anti-depressants for even longer. I've discussed this with my doctor, but I haven't gotten anything that's really hit home. I'm hoping that the hive mind might be able to shed some light on why I enjoy being the bad guy, and how I can stop. I'm tired of hurting myself and others, and being unable to get close to people due to my self-sabotage.

Other misc. info: I'm a straight male university student soon to graduate with a good GPA, I'm not from a broken home, and I haven't suffered any sexual abuse (aside from some minor creepy stuff when I was very young, which I barely remember).

Any and all responses appreciated, questions/personal comments can be directed to [e-mail]

posted by anonymous to human relations (30 comments total)

Maybe you do it because it's exciting and, so far, you haven't suffered any major negative consequences because of this behavior. Maybe you lack a normal amount of empathy.
posted by hjo3 at 10:51 AM on November 18, 2007

In all honesty, I go through very similar bouts of complete disrespect for myself and others. I'm young and dumb and sometimes just don't give a fuck. I haven't felt any of the negative side effects and will probably continue until I do. Let's blame it on society.
posted by banannafish at 10:53 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Well, there must be some payoff for you in being a slimeball. Fear of intimacy? Trying to find your bottom? I don't really see what coming from a broken home factors in except in my experience people who are irresponsible jerks tend to have something to fall back on. I suspect that is the case with you, you always have mommie and daddy to run back to when you "ruin" your life. Sounds like middle class suburban angst to me.

You become a grown up when you decide to become a grown up. Grown ups don't screw with other peoples minds or emotions. Unless you are self-disclosing that your intentions are to pork and run or whatever.
posted by 45moore45 at 10:53 AM on November 18, 2007

I have no idea who you are, so it's obviously impossible to tell you why you "enjoy being the bad guy", but these are some questions I'd ask you...

1. Are you spoiled?
2. Are you pessimistic (i.e., do you feel like you don't have a long-term future to look forward to?)
3. Are you afraid of being seen as a "nice guy"? If so, why?
4. Are you emotionally immature? Do you just not realize the effects that your actions have on other people?

Just food for thought.
posted by mpls2 at 10:59 AM on November 18, 2007

Hon, that's called "the sin nature." We all have one.
posted by konolia at 11:05 AM on November 18, 2007

Well, speaking as an adult who is many years ahead of you -- it's a nice feeling to take care of yourself. To say no to that last drink, not to be "responsible," though that's a piece of it, but to be caring to yourself, to keep yourself from feeling like shit the next day. To act appropriately, not just out of civility and empathy, but to protect your place in your social world, to be a welcomed member of your community.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 11:07 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

For me, I needed to get sober before I stopped my self destructive behavior, and I mean the behavior beyond doing inappropriate things while I was drunk - bottles were only a symbol of deeper problems which I needed to be in recovery to address.
posted by shothotbot at 11:08 AM on November 18, 2007

Fear. You're afraid of doing well/poorly on the test, so you smoke a bowl. If you do poorly, you can blame it on drugs. If you do well, then you're a genius (to yourself). You're afraid of having a girlfriend, so you hit on your friends' ladies. You say you consider yourself a good person, but you blame what you're doing on drugs. So, ok, you're scared of growing up. It's understandable. What's scarier than trying to do your best in every situation you're in? To some people, there's not much scarier. As long as you're occasionally a douchetard, and as long as alcohol/drugs are involved, you're giving yourself an out as to why your friends may hate you, or why you may, in the future, fail at something. For instance - you hit on your friend's girlfriend. Friend hates you. That's a lot easier to rationalize and stomach than simply trying to be earnest and respectable and interesting only to find that the people you thought were your friends don't like you very much. You're giving them a reason because you're scared they won't like you even when you're not a douche. So, it's about growing up. Which doesn't happen overnight. Ultimately, it's about not being scared to be earnest and nice and to try hard at something that you might fail at - whether it be school, career, relationships, whatever.
posted by billysumday at 11:12 AM on November 18, 2007 [21 favorites has favorites]

In terms of stopping: I've done my share of your behaviour. It can feel really fun and empowering.

Here's where it gets hard: Some day in the future, you're going to meet the woman of your dreams. Everything you've ever wanted. Funny. fun, nurturing, sexy, all that.

And she's not going to want to have anything to do with you because of your past.
posted by miles1972 at 11:18 AM on November 18, 2007 [6 favorites has favorites]

OP: I can literally pinpoint when I'm thinking to myself "this is a Bad Idea," and feel the perverse sense of resolve which says "good."

That calls to mind Poe's "imp of the perverse":

... through its promptings we act, for the reason that we should not. In theory, no reason can be more unreasonable, but, in fact, there is none more strong. With certain minds, under certain conditions, it becomes absolutely irresistible. I am not more certain that I breathe, than that the assurance of the wrong or error of any action is often the one unconquerable force which impels us, and alone impels us to its prosecution. Nor will this overwhelming tendency to do wrong for the wrong's sake, admit of analysis, or resolution into ulterior elements.

Such impulses are nothing new, and have frustrated stronger men than we - which is not intended to provide an excuse to not fight the impulse, just giving a little context.
posted by wilko at 11:22 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

It's a simple matter of conditioning. You get an immediate payoff from these behaviors, and the penalties are relatively remote. You might find Other People's Habit's to be a useful read. I did (for a different set of behaviors.) Good luck.
posted by Coventry at 11:26 AM on November 18, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

You do this because it keeps you in your comfort zone. This is the difference between cleaning up messes and growing. Growing involves facing the unknown and become someone else. Cleaning up messes is doing the same thing over and over again. It presents a familiar challenge, one you know how to handle. The fact that it is self-destructive is an unfortunate part of it.

You see this in couples who argue a lot --- that's what they do to relate. You're just doing the same thing with yourself.

As far as how to get out of it: it will involve a change of mindset. Rather that tackle the problem directly, you might try taking on some growth oriented routine, something that will get you into habits that are growth-oriented rather than self destructive. Going to the gym or running on a regular schedule are two activities that come to mind. Those can create a flow mindset that you get to know and enjoy. Then, when you are facing one of these bad decisions, you can tap back into that flow mindset and choose to move past the bad decision point.

Good luck!
posted by alms at 11:30 AM on November 18, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

You're bored. Maybe you have a nagging feeling that you are pointing your life towards a 9-5 existance you are going to hate and are sabotaging it. Or maybe you just enjoy drama.
posted by fshgrl at 11:30 AM on November 18, 2007

Or maybe you're a "bad guy" because you dislike yourself in general. You don't respect yourself, so you engage in self-destructive behavior. It sounds like you're taking steps to improve your self-worth, since you're in therapy. Start engaging in behaviors that show respect for yourself and others. Treat yourself well.

Begin loving yourself and tell yourself that you are a good, worthwhile human being, as mushy as that sounds. You are a good, worthwhile person. Best of luck to you.
posted by LoriFLA at 11:41 AM on November 18, 2007

Well, there must be some payoff for you in being a slimeball. / Fear. / It's a simple matter of conditioning. / You do this because it keeps you in your comfort zone. / You're bored.

It's interesting that ALL of the responses here suggest that it's a psychological problem (of the sort best cured by talk therapy or tough love) rather than a chemical/neurological problem.

I don't think those responses are necessarily wrong. You should take each one seriously and think it over to see if it fits. But it sounds like you MIGHT have some sort of "broken brain" problem.

People may not want to suggest that because you mentioned you're on anti-depressants. Which might make them think you've looked into the "chemical imbalance" possibility and found no solution there. Many people are just anti-meds.

I'm pretty neutral when it comes to such solutions. I've seen meds damage people; I've also seen them work as wonder cures. It's VERY specific to the person, and it's very complicated. Most of the people I know who have been helped by meds have spent several years experimenting (under doctor supervision) before finding the right ones and the right dosages.

Are you and your doctor ACTIVELY trying different things? It's his job to try put you on different meds if they ones you're on aren't helping you. It's your job to be completely honest with him. Are you TELLING him about your urge to do bad stuff? Have you gotten a second opinion?

What makes me feel like it might be a chemical problem is that it sounds like some sort of inhibitor in your brain -- the part that stops most of us from constantly doing self-destructive stuff -- is malfunctioning. Beyond that, I can't say much, because I'm not an expert.

Again, I'm not suggesting you just pop a pill and it will be better. And I'm not "pro" medication. But it sounds like this is a really serious problem for you, and I think you should investigate ALL avenues that might help.
posted by grumblebee at 12:10 PM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

This could be your life's work ahead of you, wrestling with your demons. And your work is probably going to consist of baby steps along with big steps from time to time.

It's going to be very challenging, as, when you abstain from your "bad behaviors," you're going to start feeling whatever it is that you've been trying to avoid - the surface of it often resembles things like restlessness, boredom, anxiety, fear, emptiness, whatever - but when you abstain and try to make the "other" choice, you'll feel it and the pressure build up until it feels like you've *got to* slip or you'll go crazy.

To me, it sounds like you've got an active addictive process going on and what you need is recovery. Not just abstaining, though that's important, but recovering your life. It's good that you recognize that there's a problem - it's a first step in the right direction. But this kind of change isn't easy.

Certainly if your therapist understands something about addiction, he or she can be very helpful. I'd guess that the past abuse trauma you mention is important, or how it was dealt with in your family might be even more important. Lots of people find 12 step programs to be helpful too, as they give you a community to help support you when you find yourself buckling under the powerful impulse to do the negative thing.
posted by jasper411 at 12:38 PM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

I'm becoming more aware, as I get older, that I don't learn well through trial and error and have a poor sense of cause and effect. Who knows why? It manifests itself in big, huge ways and little ones.

It was hard for me to learn that making good choices leads to good things, and I'm still amazed. Like, if I practice my musical instrument, I get better! If I study, I do well on a test! These things seem like magic to me, rather than just the way things are. I really had to experiment. Whoa! If I plant a garden, and water it and take care of it, I get vegetables! If I don't, no vegetables. I think it's a deep streak of pessimism that kept me from learning this easily.

Learning how to cook was also an eye-opener. If I made food and it turns out terribly, it's a sign that I'm going to have to tweak things next time. If I experiment and make notes, the dish will improve. Doing the same thing every time and expecting different results doesn't work so well.

It's a good idea to figure out why you are the way you are, and a good therapist will help. But don't wait. Start experimenting, and take notes. If you don't do thirty-seven shots of cheap tequila and puke on the bar, but have one or two beers and then go home and study, will people avoid you the next day? If, instead of climbing that barbed-wire fence, you go through the gate instead, will you end up with ripped clothing and a sprained ankle? No. Sounds obvious, but do it anyway.

Maybe you believe that bad things are going to happen no matter what you do, so you may as well make the dumb choice. Fortunately, that's usually not the way things work.
posted by freshwater_pr0n at 4:33 PM on November 18, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]

Impulsiveness, risk-taking and hypersexuality can be symptoms of mania or hypomania. You mention antidepressants, at least some of which can actually make mania worse. Have you discussed with your doc the possibility that you might be bipolar and not depressed?

(There are plenty of reasons a non-bipolar person might act the way you describe, though. Lots of other good comments here.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:45 PM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

maybe it's time to switch therapists. figuring out why you make these bad decisions is great and all, but it sounds like you are more interested in stopping the behavior than getting to the root of it. hence, a cognitive/behavioral therapist may be able to help you more. you can change your behavior without necessarily uncovering all the causes of it, which you may never know, or not understand until years and years later.

the thing is, there may not be a reason why you do it. it may just be that the behaviors have just reinforced themselves and taken on a life of their own. the intense pleasure of indulging the impulse is stronger than tomorrow's distant regret. do it once, and it's a mistake. do it a hundred times, and it's a habit. so that habit--the habit of choosing immediate pleasure over delayed unhappiness--has to be broken. a c/b therapist can help you with that.

certainly, your meds may be partly to blame, too. you might need to check your dosage or try something else. if you drink a lot, it might be reducing the effectiveness of your meds, or you might be drinking to alleviate some side effects of the meds.

you may have to stop drinking for a while. simply removing that from your life will go a long way towards clarity. i don't mean you have to quit forever, but just for, say, a month. long enough to really get it out of your system and find new ways of a) amusing yourself, and b) understanding why you want to dirnk.

i usually go dry every january myself, partly to take off the holiday pounds, but also partly because it's a good time to do some spiritual housecleaning. i go to the gym, i clean the house, i hang out with my friends but not as much (more movies, fewer bars), i read more and watch less tv. i often go vegetarian, although not always. it's sort of a half-fast, not for any religious reasons, but just to reconnect to the things that i want to do with my life, without interference from others. the holiday letdown time is a good time to start new things. see if that works for you. by the time spring rolls around, you'll be ready for some fun, and more prepared to handle it.
posted by thinkingwoman at 7:20 PM on November 18, 2007

I wonder if you don't believe that you deserve to be happy.

All of the things you are doing are self sabotaging. They cause other people to become angry at you and reject you. They cause you to feel bad about yourself.

This is something worth thinking about. In any case, I think it's important that you try to get to the root of your behavior (probably via therapy). But don't be too hard on yourself. We all do things that we regret. At least you're trying to understand yourself and change.
posted by mintchip at 7:23 PM on November 18, 2007

Um, maybe you're not actually as bad a person as you think you are, but you're excessively self-critical & indulging in a lot of confirmation bias in the process? I think pretty much everybody could come up with dozens of things that they've done that would hardly qualify them for the citizen-of-the-year award, and yet it's a core belief of mine that almost every person on the planet is a fundamentally good & decent person, and you are probably no different.

The fact that you apparently feel a sense of shame over some of your actions pushes me towards that conclusion, because shame is an inwardly-turned feeling, a kind of Catholic guilt at having let yourself down, by not being as good a person as you feel you should otherwise be. If you didn't actually have high standards for yourself, you wouldn't be seeing your actions as problematic.

I'm sure that if you turned your mind to it, you could come up with heaps of examples in which you've made good choices & behaved honourably towards others, and that these would collectively outweigh the things that you're beating yourself up over.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:55 PM on November 18, 2007

While I know what you mean by this -

As I said, I've been off drugs for a while now, and furthermore I've been seeing a therapist and taking anti-depressants for even longer.

- it's a pretty big and perversely funny fucking contradiction in terms.

Oh OK one more thing:

I'm sometimes negligent toward my friends and work and such (e.g. finances, unfortunately), leaving things until the last minute, forcing a confrontation or punishment. I then praise myself for my crisis management skills (and the nigh-irrelevant fact remains that I work really well under such pressures). In movies this called a 'devil-may-care attitude'; in the world it's called 'being irresponsible.' One form this takes is the dangerous belief that talent (which often masquerades as 'luck') should get you through life without extra help from 'skill' or 'craft.' Of course it's laziness and entitlement, nothing more, and knowing that one is this way does basically nothing to remedy it. It's not even the first step toward being better; it's almost part of the pathology.

Fortunately there are things that help (me) (maybe you?).

Do you have a project that you 'own,' something that you do/make that's uniquely and powerfully yours? I find that the more I focus on something I'm making, the more I'm able to approach other things in the world responsibly and generously. This may sound like nothing more complex than 'get a hobby, dickhead,' but really it's sneaky conditioning: you get used to the feeling of responsibility, i.e. benevolent exercise of power, in a controlled environment. You can experience this as a student as well as while working independently or teaching, of course. Learning is powerful. You learn to like that feeling. Then you extrapolate outward into the world. 'Doing things right' is easier when you start small and personal.

Look, the 'personal productivity porn' people might be the dullest goddamn faux-tech narcissist apologists in all of geekland but they've got ahold of one absolutely golden idea: you can organize and structure your life to change many, many things about yourself, starting small and personal, teaching yourself accountability, implementing systems (thereby learning a kind of personal project management), getting to know the natural categories of your imagination and pathologies. This analogizes nicely to creative work. You can acclimate yourself to a new way of being, without knowing it. In many ways that seems to be the secret of personality transformation: tricking yourself, in a way, by starting small and making change inevitable. (Ludological sidebar: This is the appeal of video games, too.)

Become a student of something in a serious way and you'll see a new side of yourself. A lot of the rationalizations given on this page will melt away - you'll have a purpose, and a lot of shit will actually take care of itself. Which is what you seem to want after all you miserable goddamn jerk, so fuck you and good luck!
posted by waxbanks at 9:06 PM on November 18, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

Imagine a parent who constantly yells at his child, ordering him around and calling him names all while telling him that he is a selfish, lazy brat who would never change. That kid would hate and love his father at the same time, rebelling against him whenever possible while simultaneously hating himself for not being the kid his father wants.

You are both the parent and the child. If instead of telling yourself that you're a bad person and you SHOULD NOT sleep with that person, you reason with yourself, you'll feel a lot better and have less of a need to rebel against yourself.

It's important to transform that inner tyrant into a wise advisor. Instead of shouting, "Don't go home with that girl you good-for-nothing asshole!" convince him to say, "Look, you're the boss, so it's your choice and you can do whatever you want, but you should think about whether you'll regret it tomorrow or whether it's really worth it." Then instead of being like "Fuck you, Dad! I'm having sex with her!" and feeling horrible about doing it, you can say either, "Yeah... I still think I'm going to screw her" and you can go ahead and feel less guilty about it, or you can say "Yeah, you know you're right. I don't really even want to do this."
posted by callmejay at 10:35 PM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Maybe your perverse impulses are trying to rescue you from being untrue to yourself in some way.
posted by Coaticass at 3:17 AM on November 19, 2007

... Or: are a symptom thereof.
posted by Coaticass at 3:30 AM on November 19, 2007

Here's something that struck me. You were able to stop using drugs. That's a huge accomplishment. What things made that possible? Examine your mindset, your actions, the voices in your head, your emotions - everything that led to that success.

Now think about how that success might spread. Take another specific behavior, maybe sleeping with people who are already in relationships. Work on quitting that behavior. Eliminate it from your life. Become a person who doesn't do that.

Then pick another behavior that you know is 'wrong.' Say, having that last drink that will put you over the edge. Whatever process you have to go through, put yourself through it so that you no longer make that choice. Maybe instead of examining your personal qualities, examine the individual behaviors that make you see yourself this way, and pare them from your life until you are doing what you feel is right.
posted by bassjump at 7:22 AM on November 19, 2007

Who do you want to be? How does the idealized version of yourself act? In short, ask yourself that question. If you want to, and are ready to be, that person, then you'll know the answer and you'll act accordingly. Otherwise, figure out what it's going to take to get there -- baby steps, if needed -- and work on it.
posted by mikeh at 11:50 AM on November 19, 2007

Nietzsche says there's no free will since there's no unfree will. Rather there's strong and weak wills. And a stronger will is one where your will is unified.

In those moments, when you have that glimmer of desire to do the right thing, it is competing with your desire to engage in the bad behavior. And the bad behavior is winning out.

I'd recommend unifying your will using whatever psychological tricks you can muster. Usually I try to visualize clearly the negative consequences of my behavior. I try to talk to myself and persuade myself to not do the bad behavior. Sometimes this seems futile, but if you're creative, you can say things that really resonate with your true interests and convince not just your mind, but your heart and you body of the right way.
posted by philosophistry at 11:56 AM on November 19, 2007

Why? Look at the way you described what happens:

I've quit using drugs, but until recently, I would smoke that bowl before the test, or do that line and stay up till the wee hours despite that paper due the next day

Tests and papers are something we don't like and create emotions that many of us don't like, that we will do anything not to feel. We believe that we cannot stand to experience the emotion.

Here's how it works--you have a feeling you don't like, from what you describe, maybe anxiety. You try and make it go away by doing something that gives you the emotional rush that will sweep that other emotion away. Some people use anger in the same way. As my mom, someone who used to do this type of thing before says: "you can't feel two emotions at the same time."

So how do you stop? Start paying a lot of attention to what you are feeling at any one time. When you feel the urge to be bad, ask yourself what it was that you were thinking about right before you suddenly decided you wanted to do the bad thing. Ask yourself what was going on right before you decided to do the bad thing. These are going to be big clues for you.

Start meditating--you will get a lot more aware of your feelings that way.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:47 AM on November 20, 2007

Due to circumstances beyond your control, you've grown up in a controlled, safe, risk-free environment, and it's boring. Soul-killing kind of boring. You've need these experiences to define yourself and your boundaries. That's normal, we're all animals at some basic level. But now you're growing up and realizing you're hurting other people. Action plan? Phase out the activities that hurt others. The re-evaluate. You may be the type of person that needs to take risks for your whole life, or you might not. If you can, try to pick a small number of indulgences. While you're indulging remind yourself that this is what you do to feel alive.
posted by lisaici at 8:38 PM on November 20, 2007