¡Help me pronounce reventón!

November 17, 2007 2:31 PM

SpanishPhoneticsFilter: Which gringo pronunciation best approximates [β]?

In a recent LanguageHat blog post, the Hat-man wrote "The fact is that the closest thing to an accurate pronunciation of the Spanish word reventón, unless you're a Spanish speaker, is re-ven-TOHN." In other words, LanguageHat claims that the closest sound English speakers have to the Spanish sound [β] -- represented orthographically as v in reventón -- is [v] (the first sound in a word like "Victor"). The point of the post was to refute an assertion that the "v" in reventón should be pronounced as a "b".

A commenter responded: "I'd say that's less a fact than an opinion; to me the [β] sounds somewhere between an English [b], an English [v], and an English [w], and I'm not at all sure the [v] is the closest".

So, Hive-mind hispanohablantes, which English sound sounds most like [β]? Please mention which regional variety of Spanish you speak, since this might have an effect on your perceptions.

posted by Bizurke to writing & language (25 comments total)

languagehat beatdown! Is this on cable?

I'm by no means a fluent speaker but I think he's right about the best choice for an English speaker to make. If you're going for a technical discussion that's another thing but if you just want to get through your Berlitz phrasebook I don't think you can really go wrong with V.

And given the wide variety of Spanishes there are, I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "correct" answer, just perhaps a predominant one.
posted by dhartung at 2:54 PM on November 17, 2007

Non-native speaker, but I noticed- first in a young man from Ecuador, then later when I was in Venezuela- that it seemed like I could make this sound by starting to make a v-sound and then closing my lips like I would for a b-sound.
It sounds like both sounds at the same time.(didn't notice any w) Where I was in Venezuela (Monagas- it might be different in Caracas or elsewhere) the b and the v were not pronounced the same.
posted by MtDewd at 2:55 PM on November 17, 2007

On second thought, I guess it's starting out with the b lip-shape and then making the v-sound.
posted by MtDewd at 2:56 PM on November 17, 2007

I think the Hatman is right. I enunciate the sound in question as a fricative, whereas the [b] in English is a labial stop.

My first Spanish teacher was Cuban; many of my native-Spanish-speaking patients have remarked that they find my accent to be similar to that of a Castilian Spaniard.
posted by ikkyu2 at 3:05 PM on November 17, 2007

I am a Spanish-speaker from Puerto Rico.

In my experience it's somewhere in between "b" and "v". That is how I pronounce it. When I pronounce a "v", my teeth fall more to the inside of my lower lip, rather than almost right on my lower lip, which is more common in English. I have heard some people - Cubans, for example - who say "v" even softer, going into "w" territory. This confuses my Cuban-music-enjoying American husband.

However. In my opinion, these nuances are best reserved for either native speakers. Otherwise, it's just not going to sound right (example: my husband trying to pronounce words from Cuban songs the way the Cuban singers do: it's jarring and distracting from his otherwise good Spanish accent). In that case, I think a regular "v" sounds works best, and is not, in fact, a "wrong" pronounciation.
posted by DrGirlfriend at 3:09 PM on November 17, 2007

Not a speaker of Spanish at all, but the sound that LH is referring to, [β], is in linguistic terms a voiced bilabial fricative. That means the sound is produced by positioning the two lips together and expelling air continuously while vibrating the vocal cords. We don't have any bilabial fricatives in English, but a bunch of English share similar features with [β]: [b] is a voiced labiodental (teeth against the lips), but not a fricative; [v] is a voiced labiodental fricative, but again, not bilabial. [w] is a bit of a hybrid, a labiovelar approximant, which is almost like [β] except that the back of the tongue is raised and the lips are rounded more.

I guess in linguistic terms, the question might be asked as, "Which English sound shares the most features with [β]?" It's hard to pin it down.
posted by greatgefilte at 3:13 PM on November 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Voiced bilabial approximant. Two lips, voiced (so "buzzy" like the difference between t and d), and not as much contact as a fricative. It has the voicing of a [v], the bilabial of a [b] and the approximant of a [w].

So yeah. Hard to explain relative to English sounds.

On preview...unless it's actually a fricative? It doesn't sound like one to me, though. I'll stand by my judgment that Spanish has that sound as an approximant in most cases, with a regional variant being fricative.
posted by Stewriffic at 3:22 PM on November 17, 2007

(linguist and not-quite-native spanish speaker...why do I feel like I have to state my qualifications...damn insecurity!)
posted by Stewriffic at 3:23 PM on November 17, 2007

I concur with MtDewd's second answer: commence by starting toward a b-sound, and resolve it with a v-sound. I've been told that the sound is somewhere between the English b and v sounds, but this method comes very close to approximating it.

While studying abroad in Mexico, I'd often (as one might expect) come across new words that I'd need to write down, which required spelling clarification. I believe it's an idiomatic phrase (my grammar professor taught it to me), but whenever I wasn't sure of whether a word contained a b or a v, I would ask:

"B como en burro,
o v como en vaca?"


Anecdotally, once I realized how to properly make the [β] sound, I noticed how impressed the locals were with my accent (or rather lack thereof, to their ears).
posted by numinous at 3:24 PM on November 17, 2007

I'm an advanced Spanish speaker. When I saw a kids' spelling contest on Spanish TV, the most common mistake was to use B instead of V.

If your goal is simply to communicate, I think a Spanish speaker will understand you if you use a standard English V sound, but I doubt a B sound would confuse them much, either.

I make the sound by making a V and B at the same time. I think it helps to have slightly buck teeth like mine.
posted by PatoPata at 3:32 PM on November 17, 2007

Stewriffic, you're probably right about it being an approximant; fricative was the first thing that came to my mind, but on second thought (and a look at Wikipedia), it looks to be more along the lines of what you're saying.
posted by greatgefilte at 3:33 PM on November 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Let's settle this. Here is a .wav file of a Native Spanish speaker (from Mexico) pronouncing reventon.

Before the controversy starts about how Bolivians or Paraguayans pronounce it, I have to say that the word is barely used outside of Mexico.
posted by micayetoca at 3:36 PM on November 17, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

One Spanish language course I have describes it as a very soft b. The other course says "listen carefully" and admonishes the listener to just do the best as possible in sounding the same. My best efforts have been similar to other posters, a "b" mouth shape but a "v" in other respects.
posted by TeatimeGrommit at 3:53 PM on November 17, 2007

According to my Spanish phonetics professor from Argentina, and the text, it's between a [b] and a [v].
posted by fructose at 4:05 PM on November 17, 2007

To my ears, I make a very soft "b" sound mixed with an airy "v". I'd advise non-native speakers to go with a standard English "v", never use a hard "b" unless it's at the beginning of a word, and don't try to do the whistley "v/w" because it makes you sound ridiculous. (My family speaks Mexican Spanish, for the record.)
posted by lychee at 5:29 PM on November 17, 2007

If you use a 'v' sound, you'll be fine.

If you're worried about your American accent, your time is better spent working on your 'R' (soft roll) or your vowels (short) than on this.

That is to say, this suffers from some regional variation whereas stuff like Rs and nasal vowels betrays you as a non-native speaker.
posted by vacapinta at 5:30 PM on November 17, 2007

Thanks for the link micayetoca -- hearing an authentic native pronunciation would usually be very usefull -- but that actually doesn't answer my question in this case. Similarly, answers that take the form of "try to combine English sound X with English sound Y with a little of English sound Z thrown in" are not responsive.
Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. I meant to ask "Out of the inventory of American English phones I learned to produce as a baby and small child, which one is the best to use in place of [β] when speaking (or at least attempting to speak) Spanish?" Henceforth, please limit your responses to answers to this question.
The posters that have provided answers to that question tend to agree with LanguageHat that [v] is the best choice.
posted by Bizurke at 6:26 PM on November 17, 2007

Thanks for asking the question; the response you quoted from my thread made me a little nervous, so I'm glad so many Spanish speakers agree with me!
posted by languagehat at 6:36 PM on November 17, 2007

I generally pronounce it as somewhere between b and v, softer than either.

My accent is a mix - family from Puerto Rico, friends from other countries, teachers from South America, and time spent living in Madrid. But I've kept it closer to Spain than Latin America.
posted by cmgonzalez at 8:28 PM on November 17, 2007

Well, I'm a native speaker, and I would say the v sound just like I say it in English. The only difference is that I make the contact between tooth and lip a little shorter than in English.

Granted, I always made sure to pronounce those two letters distinctly. I suspect that's not the norm, because my wife spent several months in Bolivia and said she couldn't tell the difference between b, v and p.

But to answer your question: just say "v" and it will not be the big deal you're making it out to be.
posted by O9scar at 8:59 PM on November 17, 2007

I pass for a native speaker in Castilla/Leon. No sound in English compares.
When I say reventón, my lips form up as if for a B, but they do not meet in the middle at the crucial point, while my tongue and rest of my mouth are clearly forming up for a V but my teeth don't go out to the lower lip to complete it. (for people who don't understand bilabial fricatives)

I never found a good way of teaching this sound but in Spain actually pronouncing it as a V or distinctly as a B is what sets you out as a foreigner.
posted by Wilder at 1:30 AM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Costa Rica...

Halfway between a B and a V.... at least to my almost-gringo (Canadian) ears... and the ticos generally tell me I have excellent pronunciation.
That said, it's different everywhere you go in the Spanish speaking world...
.
posted by TravellingDen at 5:55 AM on November 18, 2007

Why do you have to limit it to one phone when most people say it's a combination? Is there a reason for this? Trying to settle a debate?
posted by fructose at 7:35 AM on November 18, 2007

I don't think you're getting either the question or the answers. The question was "Which gringo pronunciation best approximates [β]?" (emphasis added); the answer is pretty unambiguously [v]. And the talk about "combination" is an attempt to convey what the Spanish pronunciation is like; it's not actually a combination at all, it's a bilabial fricative, but since that sound is not common to many languages and doesn't exist in English, it gets explained as a "combination of b and v" or the like.
posted by languagehat at 8:00 AM on November 18, 2007

I have to say that the word is barely used outside of Mexico.

Not true. It's used in Chile, which is as far from Mexico as you can get. Not with the same meaning, of course, but the word is used.
posted by signal at 7:19 AM on November 20, 2007