Beaten wife upstair or just rough relationship ?

October 26, 2007 1:13 AM

Beaten wife upstair or just rough relationship ?

I am in the basic, polite, "hello, how are you ?" terms with the couple of Italian origin that lives upstairs.

On some occasions (not daily) I can't help but hear loud steps and cries and shouts indicating some kind of conflicts going on. They happen on a regular basis but dot not follow a pattern. As far as I can tell not every monday night or such pattern.

I've started to wonder if I am one these "Now that you ask me about it officer, yes, they did fight sometimes. How much time in prison will he get for what he just did?" witnesses.

I'd like to now if I need to call a beaten wife charity and alert them but I would hate to waste their time with a false alarm.

So, dear hive, what are the external ways of knowing if this is just the (rough) way this relationship is working right now or if the woman in this relationship needs some kind of help ?

Is there any sure fire way to tell a beaten wife situation from a "in this relationship, we like to argue from time to time and we like our arguments with spicy drama in it" ?

posted by Baud to human relations (25 comments total)

You would not call a shelter, you would call your local police station or 911 with a domestic disturbance call and let the police make an assessment. Which, if in doubt, you should.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:24 AM on October 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

Seconding DarlingBri. Call your local police while it's happening and report a domestic disturbance. They'll respond and assess the situation. Sometimes these things are just verbal (I'm not excusing them by using the word "just") but the police are trained to recognize the signs and symptoms of physical abuse, and will respond accordingly (most state laws require a mandatory arrest for the perpetrator if there is evidence of physical abuse).
posted by amyms at 1:34 AM on October 26, 2007

There is no really good way to approach this, but I think the best idea is to call the police with an anonymous noise complaint the next time you hear the fighting.
posted by Brittanie at 1:35 AM on October 26, 2007

Or what they all said.
posted by Brittanie at 1:35 AM on October 26, 2007

This is always a difficult one. We have a house near us where the mother is often heard having screaming arguments with her young child. There is nothing, however, to suggest physical violence. It's bad parenting, but is it abuse?

You say you hear "loud steps and cries and shouts" but you don't mention anything that sounds particularly physically violent. From personal experience, I can say there is some truth to the stereotype of a "latin" temperament. Arguments tend to be bigger and louder (but not necessarily more violent) than those between people of a more "northern" character. Even simple discussions can seem overwrought by anglo-saxon standards.

Also, at the risk of being pedantic, bear in mind that it could just as well be a beaten husband situation...
posted by oclipa at 1:49 AM on October 26, 2007

If things actually sound dangerous, the police are who you'd call. But also keep in mind if they are italian that it might be a cultural issue. Certain cultures communicate in a louder and more open way, and italians are definitely one of those.

I lived next to an Armenian couple for years and they would scream at eachother at the dinner table just to ask their spouse to pass the butter. It was annoying, but I grew to understand that they were actually a very happy family in the context of their own culture and relationship. They were just freakin' loud in the process. That was their particular comfort level.
posted by miss lynnster at 2:14 AM on October 26, 2007

yeah, call the police when it happens again. they might just be loud and passionate, but if there is thumping and banging going along with the yelliing and crying, there might be problems.

after you call the police--your neighbors will probably know it was you--i would see if you can catch the wife alone and say, "i'm sorry about calling the police, but it really sounded like you were in danger. if you ever need to get away from him for a while, please knock on my door anytime, day or night."
posted by thinkingwoman at 4:10 AM on October 26, 2007 [2 favorites]

I like how you assume the husband's beating her up just because they're loud. I have a couple next door who are forever screaming at each other but as far as I can see they're just an argumentative couple. Me and the mrs occasionally have barnies and she can get very loud and histrionic but I'd be very annoyed if the neighbours assumed I was smacking her around.

Do you ever speak to your neighbours? Could you not ask one or other of the couple if everything is OK before you call the police?
posted by ComfySofa at 4:27 AM on October 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

stay out of it. you could be misinterpreting the situation. they are bound to have friends/family who are more fit to make this judgment than you are.

on the other hand, if you want to make a noise complaint simply because the noise is irritating, then go nuts on that front.
posted by ascullion at 6:15 AM on October 26, 2007

I have been in a similar situation and I called the police and explained that I wasn't sure exactly what was going on. They responded with what they call a welfare check. They stopped by the house to assess the situation. If you think that there is a possibility that someone might be in danger, call the police and explain the situation. They handle this type of call on a regular basis and are in a much better position to find out what is really going on.
posted by calumet43 at 7:03 AM on October 26, 2007

Either way they shouldn't be screaming down the apartment house, so call the cops. Besides, if things are heading in a bad direction, maybe a quick visit from the civil authorities could turn them around: if the relationship is in the process of escalating up the usual continuum from screaming and pacing to screaming and throwing things to screaming and slapping to screaming and punching to screaming and murdering, well, you might just head it off at the pass and return this couple to a healthy, "we remember the neighbors and the human community and social contract where we don't commit violence" kind of status.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:32 AM on October 26, 2007

ComfySofa, the thing is, if there is badness going on behind the door, neither of them is likely to fess up to a random neighbour. "Oh, yeah, I'm smacking my husband with a broom when he doesn't pick up his socks, what of it?" is a very unlikely outcome.

Ascullion, sure, the OP could be misinterpreting what is going on. Or, equally, may not be misinterpreting. In a situation where someone may need help, and especially in a situation where he or she may not be in a position to ask for that help, it has to be better to be safe than sorry.

This is why a domestic violence call/welfare check is a good thing - the police, as calumet43 points out, are trained to asses these situations. It isn't invasive and it isn't humiliating. They don't turn up and announce that the neighbours think someone is being abused. They are stopping by to make sure "everything is OK" and generally they will tactfully finagle their way into actually laying eyes on and talking to everyone in residence. It's all pretty low key in my experience.

And on preview, what Don Pepino said.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:41 AM on October 26, 2007

Furthermore, I sympathize with people who fight recreationally and consider it a buzzkill when their neighbors call the cops, but I nevertheless think they deserve a visit from the cops whenever they make violence-implying noise their neighbors can hear. If you like to yell, chain-smoke, keep yappy puppies, rev your Harley, clog, play the drums, then get the hell out of the building. Get a house and yard. If you can't get a house and yard, then you can't pursue loud avocations at home. Having to restrain oneself and be quiet and closed off from much that is fun in life is the lot of the poor, along with substandard health care, "ice" beer, and usury.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:55 AM on October 26, 2007 [6 favorites]

do you ever see these people, do they have bruises, black eyes, a limp?

what exactly do you hear?

if it is loud just make a call to the cops and say you think someone is getting beat up upstairs

then read the police report a few days later to find out what happened

you could also go up and say "is everything alright up here" or even "please quiet down" and see how that works
posted by Salvatorparadise at 9:01 AM on October 26, 2007

So, dear hive, what are the external ways of knowing if this is just the (rough) way this relationship is working right now or if the woman in this relationship needs some kind of help ?

Is there any sure fire way to tell a beaten wife situation from a "in this relationship, we like to argue from time to time and we like our arguments with spicy drama in it" ?

When you see her, does she look all beat up, or does she look like she's covering up injuries? When you hear them fight, do you hear someone crying out in pain, or is it just a constant back-and-forth loud angry mess?

If you're going to call the cops, please keep all your theories to yourself, because it doesn't seem like there's any evidence to substantiate them. Yes, a loud angry man might be beating his wife. So might a quiet angry man. Call the cops about the noise, not about your theories.
posted by 23skidoo at 9:02 AM on October 26, 2007

Please call the police. I used to call in a wife beater almost nightly. One night, I didn't call. The next morning, the authorities hauled away a body. Please call the police every time.
posted by acoutu at 9:37 AM on October 26, 2007

I would first talk to a neighbor and see if they've heard anything suspicious. If they're home at different times, or live closer, or whatever, they may have better data.

(I understand what you're going through, as we've vacillated on calling the cops about our "dramatic" neighbors in the building one over, mostly because we've heard things like "You son of a bitch, I'll kill you!" from the woman, and heard things being thrown. But we've recanted every time because it ends in the couple having incredibly loud and apparently passionate sex.)
posted by klangklangston at 9:42 AM on October 26, 2007

Calling the police can actually be dangerous in an abusive situation, as abusers are often savvy in dealing with police officers and survivors may often feel the brunt of an abusers anger that the police have been called in. I volunteer at a hotline for survivors of abuse, and we have been trained not to encourage a survivor to call the police. The survivor's safety is of the utmost concern, and sometimes bringing the police into the situation can make things less safe -- especially if (and this is often the case) the police are not well trained in dealing with a domestic abuse situation. When someone calls into the hotline, we talk with them to find out what they really want to do and what would make them safer. Maybe they are ready to call the police, maybe they need to get out of the house until their parter calms down, maybe they need to leave the house for good. Some people are ready to leave the relationship, many are not, and until they are ready then they have to do everything they can to stay safe in the relationship. Many survivors of abuse do not believe and are not ready to believe that they are in an abusive relationship. Calling the police in such a situation may not help much at all. Still, as acoutu notes, if the situation is truly critical the police may be the only option.

As an outsider, you need to make choices for your own well being also. If the noises are bothering you, maybe you should call the police. If you truly care about your neighbor, a much more effective but certainly more difficult tactic may be to reach out to this woman and cultivate a friendship to find out whats really going on. This may take a long time, since it can be difficult for survivors to admit to themselves that they are being abused, let alone to other people. This is a lot to ask of yourself and so may not be a good option. You might also consider finding a local domestic violence hotline and calling them for advice, or possibly discreetly and tactfully sharing information about domestic violence resources with your neighbor. This is a tough situation, and I appreciate your concern for this person.
posted by cubby at 9:59 AM on October 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

The National Domestic Violence Hotline could be a useful resource for you.
posted by cubby at 10:01 AM on October 26, 2007 [1 favorite]

DarlingBri, that's true, but he may be able to gauge better what's going on if he actually speaks to them, he doesn't have to outright ask them if they're getting beaten up every night. As cubby says, perhaps try and get to know them better.

Maybe he should talk to the cops, but it just seems to me that people are allowed to argue and it doesn't automatically mean one is abusing the other. If he can do it anonymously and be assured that the couple upstairs will be dealt with tactfully, then perhaps that is the best thing to do.
posted by ComfySofa at 10:39 AM on October 26, 2007

Years ago, I had a similar problem with neighbors the next apartment over. I called the cops after the 4th or 5th incident. Turned out they were just dramatic, er, lovers. To excuse the hassle and embarrassment they had to go through, I told them it sounded like there was an intruder (which it did, vaguely). Later, the guy told me that was sorta the point. They moved on to tamer scenarios or a different location, though. Problem solved.
posted by the christopher hundreds at 12:39 PM on October 26, 2007

"Calling the police can actually be dangerous in an abusive situation" seems pretty obvious. Of course it can be dangerous and I'm sure it frequently is. But "trained not to encourage the survivor to call the police?" That's surprising.

Has your shelter done a review of the research? This issue has obviously been researched and we don't need to rely on anecdotal evidence. The best I've got is a conversation with a friend who read an abstract or heard a talk or something but the impression I got contradicts the position of your shelter. My recollection is that in general the risks of calling the police are smaller than the risks of not calling the police. (But that this was not true in some demographics.)

So I would suggest that you consider reaching out to your neighbor. Look out for signs of physical abuse. Get advice from a local shelter. But the next time that you hear something which makes you suspect an actual attack is in progress you should call the police.
posted by stuart_s at 1:20 PM on October 26, 2007

The worst advice here is to try to look at her/talk to her and based on that information, guess whether or not she is being abused.

He could be perpetrating several kinds of dangerous physical assault leave no marks that you would be able to easily identify on a clothed person, such as:

--Punching or kicking her in the back or stomach;
--Holding a pillow over her head until she passes out;
--Burning her with hot water on the chest, back, or genitals;
--Raping her with an object, anally or vaginally.

All of these are dangerous and possibly fatal and none of them would be easy for you to see.

It is winter in Belgium, so even bruises on her arms or legs could be covered easily with clothes.

Please call the police if there is any question. They can provide resources and experience that you cannot, especially during an actual assault.
posted by sondrialiac at 3:06 PM on October 26, 2007

All of these are dangerous and possibly fatal and none of them would be easy for you to see.

Right, but then every single woman you pass on the street could be being abused. Is "often can be heard having what might be loud angry arguments" a good benchmark for signifying abuse on anything other than the "Better Safe than Sorry" scale?
posted by 23skidoo at 3:32 PM on October 26, 2007

stuart, we are a survivor lead organization whose policies are based on research and on the experiences of survivors. Many survivors experience judgement and shame from those who should be helping them, including the police and their doctors. They get a lot of pressure from these and even their friends to get out of the relationship or to do something about their position. This can be difficult and isolating, especially when the survivor is experiencing conflicting emotions (an abusive relationship is still a relationship and may involve love and other positive emotions). Our hotline seeks to meet survivors where they are -- we do not bring an agenda. Therefore, we will not tell a caller "you need to call the police." We try to find out what is going on. Is the person safe right now? If not, how can they get safe? Do they want to call the police? If they call the police, they may have to file formal charges against their partner. Are they prepared to do that? If they call and do not file charges, are they prepared to face the consequences of those actions? If the caller does want to call the police, flee to a shelter, or some other course of action, then we will assist them in making the necessary arrangements. There are so many choices involved, and often callers need a significant amount of time to figure things out. They may just need a plan for the next ten minutes, or maybe they are ready to think about a longer term solution.

Again, my advice is to get some resources from a local or national domestic violence prevention center, and then possibly use that information to reach out to this person. A simple and impersonal way could be simply to post flyers for a domestic violence hotline in the stairwells of the building. A more personal way would be to invite this person out for coffee and a chat. A last resort, emergency way would be to call the police during an actual or supposed assault. Can you find a way to intervene before that happens again?
posted by cubby at 5:25 PM on October 26, 2007