What happens when Sotheby's London changes their mind?
October 14, 2007 6:32 PM Subscribe
I sent my supposedly authentic Italian music manuscripts to Sotheby's of London (after their music manuscripts expert authenticated them in person in NYC) to be auctioned. After they received them in London, they told me they weren't sure if they were authentic and they wouldn't auction them. Problem is, it's going to cost me a lot to get them back, and it already cost quite a bit to mail them to London. More details within.
A dilemma for all you thoughtful people: over a year ago, I realized that I had in my possession some old, handwritten music manuscripts (http://flickr.com/photos/amalkoff/sets/72057594096354317/). Many years ago, while in grad school, I worked at one of the libraries (this was a music conservatory), where people would often leave old sheet music as donations to the students. (No, they were not meant to stay at the school, lest you think I was taking something meant to be part of the school’s permanent libraries). I would pick through them and take what looked nice. I hadn’t thought about them much. But I started doing some research on these pieces in April 06. The pieces are by Italian composer Francesco Paolo Tosti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Paolo_Tosti).
I first sent them to an expert in New Jersey, who authenticated them and suggested I speak with Sotheby’s of London. I reached the head of music manuscripts at Sotheby’s and we agreed to meet in NYC when he would be there. He looked over the pieces and said they were the real thing. He suggested I send them to him if I wanted to auction them. He further told me that they’d likely be worth approximately $3000 total (there are 3 of them). After some thought, I decided to send them, and mailed them to Sotheby’s. It cost a little over $100 to mail them. I planned to use the proceeds of the sales as a downpayment on a car. Several months went by and I would check in with Sotheby’s periodically. Eventually, I was told that upon further review, they weren’t absolutely SURE that the pieces had been written out by Tosti himself. It was absolutely his music and it was absolutely of that time period, but there’s a chance that a music copyist did the writing, though the writing style matches Tosti’s own handwriting (several examples of which are available online). They told me they could NOT auction the pieces and they could send them back to me. So now, not only have I paid money to send them to London, it will cost approximately $250 US to get them BACK, with shipping and export fees. I asked them to cover the cost, since I sent them there only after their expert authenticated them in person and agreed to auction them, but they said absolutely not. I’ve let them stay there for several months, because I haven’t had the money to do this. I now have the money, but so many other things should take precedence, especially if ultimately they are worth nothing. There’s a chance another auction house would be interested in them, but that’s a gamble, and I need to have them back in order to show them to anyone and determine that. $250 is not a small amount to me, so I’m really struggling with what to do here. The only way I can get them back is to pay that amount, but I may be paying for something that’s of little to no value, but IS my property.
Perhaps the only options really ARE 1.) pay to get them back or 2.) leave them with Sotheby’s for good, but you guys might have other ideas. Thoughts? Suggestions?
A dilemma for all you thoughtful people: over a year ago, I realized that I had in my possession some old, handwritten music manuscripts (http://flickr.com/photos/amalkoff/sets/72057594096354317/). Many years ago, while in grad school, I worked at one of the libraries (this was a music conservatory), where people would often leave old sheet music as donations to the students. (No, they were not meant to stay at the school, lest you think I was taking something meant to be part of the school’s permanent libraries). I would pick through them and take what looked nice. I hadn’t thought about them much. But I started doing some research on these pieces in April 06. The pieces are by Italian composer Francesco Paolo Tosti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Paolo_Tosti).
I first sent them to an expert in New Jersey, who authenticated them and suggested I speak with Sotheby’s of London. I reached the head of music manuscripts at Sotheby’s and we agreed to meet in NYC when he would be there. He looked over the pieces and said they were the real thing. He suggested I send them to him if I wanted to auction them. He further told me that they’d likely be worth approximately $3000 total (there are 3 of them). After some thought, I decided to send them, and mailed them to Sotheby’s. It cost a little over $100 to mail them. I planned to use the proceeds of the sales as a downpayment on a car. Several months went by and I would check in with Sotheby’s periodically. Eventually, I was told that upon further review, they weren’t absolutely SURE that the pieces had been written out by Tosti himself. It was absolutely his music and it was absolutely of that time period, but there’s a chance that a music copyist did the writing, though the writing style matches Tosti’s own handwriting (several examples of which are available online). They told me they could NOT auction the pieces and they could send them back to me. So now, not only have I paid money to send them to London, it will cost approximately $250 US to get them BACK, with shipping and export fees. I asked them to cover the cost, since I sent them there only after their expert authenticated them in person and agreed to auction them, but they said absolutely not. I’ve let them stay there for several months, because I haven’t had the money to do this. I now have the money, but so many other things should take precedence, especially if ultimately they are worth nothing. There’s a chance another auction house would be interested in them, but that’s a gamble, and I need to have them back in order to show them to anyone and determine that. $250 is not a small amount to me, so I’m really struggling with what to do here. The only way I can get them back is to pay that amount, but I may be paying for something that’s of little to no value, but IS my property.
Perhaps the only options really ARE 1.) pay to get them back or 2.) leave them with Sotheby’s for good, but you guys might have other ideas. Thoughts? Suggestions?
Your description is a little muddled, but some questions jump to mind:
Do you have any documentation (a receipt for example?) from the initial Sotheby's inspection in NYC? Are they disputing that their representative ever saw them in NYC, or confirmed their authenticity? Have you had any contact with the original Sotheby's rep from NYC? Did you sign any contracts at any point during the exchange?
It seems to me that the person who originaly said they were real and encouraged you to send them to London should be able to make some phone calls on your behalf and have them returned to you at no cost.
On the face of it this all seems like really half ass treatment from Sotheby's, but if you signed anything or agreed to foot the costs in the event the documents turned out not to be the real thing then you're probably SOL.
Still, you should fight to have your documents returned. Unfortunately because you've waited so long your bargaining stance is greatly reduced (after all, if you really cared about how you were being mistreated, why are you just not seeking a resolution?) but in the great American tradition of whining until someone does something on your behalf I'd say that if you bitch and moan enough they should at least help you out with the shipping...
Get your stuff back and let someone locally handle their sale...
posted by wfrgms at 7:07 PM on October 14, 2007
Do you have any documentation (a receipt for example?) from the initial Sotheby's inspection in NYC? Are they disputing that their representative ever saw them in NYC, or confirmed their authenticity? Have you had any contact with the original Sotheby's rep from NYC? Did you sign any contracts at any point during the exchange?
It seems to me that the person who originaly said they were real and encouraged you to send them to London should be able to make some phone calls on your behalf and have them returned to you at no cost.
On the face of it this all seems like really half ass treatment from Sotheby's, but if you signed anything or agreed to foot the costs in the event the documents turned out not to be the real thing then you're probably SOL.
Still, you should fight to have your documents returned. Unfortunately because you've waited so long your bargaining stance is greatly reduced (after all, if you really cared about how you were being mistreated, why are you just not seeking a resolution?) but in the great American tradition of whining until someone does something on your behalf I'd say that if you bitch and moan enough they should at least help you out with the shipping...
Get your stuff back and let someone locally handle their sale...
posted by wfrgms at 7:07 PM on October 14, 2007
Sorry, sucky situation (auction houses suck); these are thoughts wrapped as questions rather than suggestions as I know nothing at all about the value or selling of music manuscripts:
What are they worth to you to have and keep?
Or will you be able to recoup any of the costs of shipping them back?
Have you any contacts in England who could ship in a less expensive way?
Fwiw I'm from England, not many contacts there now, but you can email me (per profile) if you're stuck.
posted by anadem at 7:09 PM on October 14, 2007
What are they worth to you to have and keep?
Or will you be able to recoup any of the costs of shipping them back?
Have you any contacts in England who could ship in a less expensive way?
Fwiw I'm from England, not many contacts there now, but you can email me (per profile) if you're stuck.
posted by anadem at 7:09 PM on October 14, 2007
Response by poster: lilithim:
Great idea - if anyone out there is willing, please let me know!
wfrgms:
The only documentation that I have are the business card of the man I met with in NYC (who is the head of music manuscripts at Sotheby's London), and all the documentation from sending the manuscripts to London (which are considerable), which includes a letter that goes over the amount he'd suggested, and that they'd agreed to auction them.
They are not disputing that we met in NYC, but that when he received them in London and apparently looked at them again with colleagues, they collectively decided they might not be in Tosti's hand.
I followed up with them periodically and then was fairly aggressive in asking that they cover costs when they said they wouldn't auction them and that I'd need to pay to get them back, but then I let it go because I had to move and get a new car and simply didn't have the money or the time to deal with it, and they were not budging.
posted by FlyByDay at 7:21 PM on October 14, 2007
Great idea - if anyone out there is willing, please let me know!
wfrgms:
The only documentation that I have are the business card of the man I met with in NYC (who is the head of music manuscripts at Sotheby's London), and all the documentation from sending the manuscripts to London (which are considerable), which includes a letter that goes over the amount he'd suggested, and that they'd agreed to auction them.
They are not disputing that we met in NYC, but that when he received them in London and apparently looked at them again with colleagues, they collectively decided they might not be in Tosti's hand.
I followed up with them periodically and then was fairly aggressive in asking that they cover costs when they said they wouldn't auction them and that I'd need to pay to get them back, but then I let it go because I had to move and get a new car and simply didn't have the money or the time to deal with it, and they were not budging.
posted by FlyByDay at 7:21 PM on October 14, 2007
Response by poster: anadem:
They are only valuable to me if I can auction them, and then, less so, that they do belong to me, and I'd rather not let them sit indefinitely at Sotheby's, even if I can't sell them.
I could only recoup the costs if I could ultimately sell them.
And I know noone in London, so I will email you - thanks!
posted by FlyByDay at 7:24 PM on October 14, 2007 [1 favorite]
They are only valuable to me if I can auction them, and then, less so, that they do belong to me, and I'd rather not let them sit indefinitely at Sotheby's, even if I can't sell them.
I could only recoup the costs if I could ultimately sell them.
And I know noone in London, so I will email you - thanks!
posted by FlyByDay at 7:24 PM on October 14, 2007 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Auction houses like Sotheby's and Christie's will basically run from anything that could even possibly not be real, especially something that low value, so this doesn't really surprise me. Ultimately an expert just has a very educated opinion, other experts in the department no doubt check everything again and if there wasn't a consensus it's out. I'd give Christie's a call, however word tends to get around, so if Christie's find out that Sotheby's has called in question their authenticity your screwed (and they are very competitive and love to raise doubts of authenticity).
What I would do if I were you is see if they can essentially be sold for decorative value. Sotheby's has a second showroom/gallery in London, where they sell the cheap stuff. It is generally old, but not famous art that cannot be authenticated in any fashion. Think I went to Venice in 1850 and all I brought back was this picture of a boat. Your manuscripts are pretty and I imagine someone interested in music would be interested in them for the right price, even if Sotheby's out and out said "In the style of Tosti, but not authenticated" I bet you could make at least a couple hundred. I would run that idea by them.
posted by whoaali at 7:28 PM on October 14, 2007
What I would do if I were you is see if they can essentially be sold for decorative value. Sotheby's has a second showroom/gallery in London, where they sell the cheap stuff. It is generally old, but not famous art that cannot be authenticated in any fashion. Think I went to Venice in 1850 and all I brought back was this picture of a boat. Your manuscripts are pretty and I imagine someone interested in music would be interested in them for the right price, even if Sotheby's out and out said "In the style of Tosti, but not authenticated" I bet you could make at least a couple hundred. I would run that idea by them.
posted by whoaali at 7:28 PM on October 14, 2007
One question- if they are written by a copyist are they then valueless? It would seem to be that there would be some value to the sheets. Maybe not as much as if they were written by the composer himself but possibly something more than the $250 to get them back.
Personally, I would think someone is trying to screw you out of your find. They might believe you are poor enough to leave them there. I'd get them back.
posted by bkeene12 at 7:31 PM on October 14, 2007
Personally, I would think someone is trying to screw you out of your find. They might believe you are poor enough to leave them there. I'd get them back.
posted by bkeene12 at 7:31 PM on October 14, 2007
There was recently a meetup in London. You might take a look at this thread to identify mefites who could help you.
Good luck.
posted by thinman at 7:32 PM on October 14, 2007
Good luck.
posted by thinman at 7:32 PM on October 14, 2007
Response by poster: whoaali - Very good suggestions. They had not mentioned that, but I will ask.
bkeeene12 - I don't know if they are valueless if they can't be authenticated or were done by a copyist. I'd assume they still have some monetary value.
thinman - Thanks, will do.
posted by FlyByDay at 7:38 PM on October 14, 2007
bkeeene12 - I don't know if they are valueless if they can't be authenticated or were done by a copyist. I'd assume they still have some monetary value.
thinman - Thanks, will do.
posted by FlyByDay at 7:38 PM on October 14, 2007
I'm in London, happy to run an errand for you if it'll help. Email's in profile.
I have no idea of the cost of reliable, insured shipping for this kind of thing, though. Sotheby's may well be quoting a fair price, for all I know. But my hunch is there'll be cheaper options somewhere.
posted by chrismear at 7:41 PM on October 14, 2007
I have no idea of the cost of reliable, insured shipping for this kind of thing, though. Sotheby's may well be quoting a fair price, for all I know. But my hunch is there'll be cheaper options somewhere.
posted by chrismear at 7:41 PM on October 14, 2007
I'm fairly sure Sotheby's wouldn't overcharge you in the sense they are making a profit by mailing them back to you, but these are also the people that get a courier to take something 4 blocks, so they don't do anything on the cheap. Also, for liability reasons they probably won't send it any other way than what is the absolutely safest for the art.
Also, I doubt they are ripping you off in the they are taking it and running sense. $3,000 is about as low as the price goes as Sotheby's, I'm actually a little surprised they took it in at that price. I thought the minimum was 5,000 pounds or more for the main auction house, but it might vary by department.
posted by whoaali at 7:52 PM on October 14, 2007
Also, I doubt they are ripping you off in the they are taking it and running sense. $3,000 is about as low as the price goes as Sotheby's, I'm actually a little surprised they took it in at that price. I thought the minimum was 5,000 pounds or more for the main auction house, but it might vary by department.
posted by whoaali at 7:52 PM on October 14, 2007
a letter that goes over the amount he'd suggested, and that they'd agreed to auction them.
You have a letter from this man that flat-out unconditionally said that they agreed to auction them?
posted by trevyn at 7:55 PM on October 14, 2007
You have a letter from this man that flat-out unconditionally said that they agreed to auction them?
posted by trevyn at 7:55 PM on October 14, 2007
Response by poster: whoaali: The charges are for shipping and export fees - that's what's jacking the price up. I don't think they're ripping me off. I just never expected to have to pay to get them back.
And yes, it varies by dept. For example, $5000 IS the minimum for Sotheby's NYC.
trevyn: I have a letter that I wrote him that went along with the manuscripts that says that we met and what he quoted me and that they'd agreed to auction them. But it's from me, to them.
posted by FlyByDay at 8:01 PM on October 14, 2007
And yes, it varies by dept. For example, $5000 IS the minimum for Sotheby's NYC.
trevyn: I have a letter that I wrote him that went along with the manuscripts that says that we met and what he quoted me and that they'd agreed to auction them. But it's from me, to them.
posted by FlyByDay at 8:01 PM on October 14, 2007
Yeah to be honest they get masses of stuff sent to them and a lot of it is just sent back, so while I agree its pretty shitty they didn't warn you in advance this could happen, I'm not particularly surprised. I oddly know absolutely nothing about the legal aspects of this (even though I really kind of should). People routinely send in photos and the experts give their opinions and then they send in the real thing and then obviously what happened to you can happen.
But then again they do give valuations by some of the best art experts in the world for free (you can literally walk in to Sotheby's off the street with a piece of art and an expert will evaluate it almost on the spot, well you might have to wait an hour but even so, even if it looks like you photocopied a Picasso as kinko's they'll look at it) so I guess it's a bit of give and take.
posted by whoaali at 8:17 PM on October 14, 2007
But then again they do give valuations by some of the best art experts in the world for free (you can literally walk in to Sotheby's off the street with a piece of art and an expert will evaluate it almost on the spot, well you might have to wait an hour but even so, even if it looks like you photocopied a Picasso as kinko's they'll look at it) so I guess it's a bit of give and take.
posted by whoaali at 8:17 PM on October 14, 2007
Option 1: make contact with someone in the shipping department at Sotheby's, and see if they can reduce the shipping costs. They will probably waive the insurance if you are prepared to have the items sent at your own risk. I'm slightly puzzled by the mention of 'export fees' and it might be worth seeking clarification on these; it's possible that someone at Sotheby's hasn't read the paperwork properly and thinks an export licence is required to send these items abroad.
Option 2: try to transfer the manuscripts to another London saleroom, e.g. Bonhams, Christie's South Kensington, or Bloomsbury Book Auctions, all of which have regular sales of mid-price manuscript items. If you are lucky, you might be able to find a friendly London MeFite who could pick the items up from Sotheby's in New Bond Street and take them to Bonhams further up the street, or Bloomsbury round the corner in Maddox Street.
Option 3: get in touch with a UK-based antiquarian music dealer, e.g. Lisa Cox, explain the situation, and see what they say. A specialist dealer will be able to give you a reliable opinion on whether the manuscript is in the composer's hand or not (which obviously makes a big difference to the price) and will probably be happy to take the item 'on consignment' (i.e. they don't pay you any money up front, but they try to sell it on your behalf, and take a commission when it is sold). This is the option I'd recommend.
posted by verstegan at 2:34 AM on October 15, 2007 [1 favorite]
Option 2: try to transfer the manuscripts to another London saleroom, e.g. Bonhams, Christie's South Kensington, or Bloomsbury Book Auctions, all of which have regular sales of mid-price manuscript items. If you are lucky, you might be able to find a friendly London MeFite who could pick the items up from Sotheby's in New Bond Street and take them to Bonhams further up the street, or Bloomsbury round the corner in Maddox Street.
Option 3: get in touch with a UK-based antiquarian music dealer, e.g. Lisa Cox, explain the situation, and see what they say. A specialist dealer will be able to give you a reliable opinion on whether the manuscript is in the composer's hand or not (which obviously makes a big difference to the price) and will probably be happy to take the item 'on consignment' (i.e. they don't pay you any money up front, but they try to sell it on your behalf, and take a commission when it is sold). This is the option I'd recommend.
posted by verstegan at 2:34 AM on October 15, 2007 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: verstegan: great advice, thanks. I will check into all of those. When I first met with the guy in NYC, he told me to make sure I wanted to sell before I sent them to him in London, because if I changed my mind and wanted them back before auction, I would be exporting them, and they'd incur export fees. Now that's what's happened, though it obviously wasn't my choice. They're saying insurance is only 10 pounds. The rest of the charges are export fees, shipping and handling.
posted by FlyByDay at 5:56 AM on October 15, 2007
posted by FlyByDay at 5:56 AM on October 15, 2007
Given the hassles of selling them... One way to make some profit off of them might be to donate them to a conservatory library that collects manuscripts and get a tax deduction.
posted by Jahaza at 7:15 AM on October 15, 2007
posted by Jahaza at 7:15 AM on October 15, 2007
Why are they charging export fees? They're yours. Had you purchased them from the auction house and asked them to ship them to the US, export fees would be appropriate. I don't see where they come in to play in this situation. Ten years ago, I shipped something of similar value from the UK to the US (it was mine, purchased in the US, taken to the UK, and shipped back to myself in the US). I called customs offices in both countries. Both sides told me there would be no fees.
I wonder if whatever application they use to ship stuff just tacks export fees on to everything that goes overseas given that the vast majority of things shipped are actual sales and not just "here's your stuff back."
posted by the christopher hundreds at 10:01 AM on October 15, 2007
I wonder if whatever application they use to ship stuff just tacks export fees on to everything that goes overseas given that the vast majority of things shipped are actual sales and not just "here's your stuff back."
posted by the christopher hundreds at 10:01 AM on October 15, 2007
Response by poster: christopher: I really have no idea, other than he told me that once they come into the country (UK), they've been "imported" from the US, so to go out again, they have to be "exported" and they tack fees onto that.
posted by FlyByDay at 11:09 AM on October 15, 2007
posted by FlyByDay at 11:09 AM on October 15, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by lilithim at 7:05 PM on October 14, 2007