Boyfriend comments on bodies of other women -- makes me feel like crap

September 22, 2007 10:13 PM

Why would guy I'm seeing continually bring up the level of attractiveness of former flames and why does it make me feel like sh*t?

I'm in a casual relationship with this guy but we've been monogamous and gone out enough that we've referred to each other as girlfriend/boyfriend. We get along well and enjoy one another's intelligence and sense of humor. However, he will occasionally talk about the hot bod(ies) of his former love(s) or how going to the beach or pool is the best place to check out the great looking women proliferate in this area. I'm no slouch in the attractiveness area but when he makes these kind of comments, I feel like a big zero. Yes, I've told him (although not how much it bothers me) and he has basically dismissed my concerns saying all straight men check out women's bodies he's just not afraid to say it out loud. Even more disturbing, he recently described a good friend's new girlfriend to me and told me how, although she was our age (late 30s), she had a model's body and face. Then, at several other points in the conversation, he referred to her as "very attractive," "extremely attractive," and "disgustingly attractive." I couldn't help myself; I asked him how he described me to his friends. His response, "Thin, athletic, attractive, smart as a whip." All very nice, but, due to our prior conversation, I noticed the absence of "very" or any other descriptive word in front of the attractive. When I called him on it (yes, I ashamed to admit it, but I did), he just said, "(My name) ... . Please."

So, my list of questions: 1) Why do I give a damn what he thinks about my looks in comparison to another woman? Why can't I just reassure myself with the "he's coming home with me mantra"? ; 2) Why would a guy who seemingly puts looks at the top of his list of "must haves" in a girlfriend, continue to go out with a woman he doesn't consider to be at the top level; 3) If I decide to continue going out with him, is there a way I can unemotionally explain my discomfiture regarding his comments without coming off as completely insecure (or am I completely insecure)? Any personal anecdotes similar to this experience would be greatly appreciated.

posted by notcomputersavvy06 to human relations (60 comments total)

He sounds like a jerk. Of course men check out other women's bodies, but for him to throw it in your face (and then respond dismissively when you feel uncomfortable) does not bode well for a healthy relationship.
posted by amyms at 10:19 PM on September 22, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

1) Because it's disrespectful of him to say that sort of thing to you, especially when you've brought it up that it bothers you, and he hasn't stopped.
2) Because you're the best he can get.
3) Not unless you squash your sense of dignity and self-worth.

Please, please--give him one more chance to apologize for what is a real slight, and if he patronizingly says "Please, notcomputersavv06," dump him immediately.

What this guy is doing to you is really, really uncool IMO. I don't care what his other redeeming qualities are. I suggest you dump him before he makes you question yourself anymore.

Good luck.
posted by tk at 10:20 PM on September 22, 2007

1.) You care because he's constantly throwing it your face.
2.) He may consider you top level, either in looks or something else important to him, or he is unable reach the top and you are a good consolation.
3.) Probably not without him claiming you are being "too emotional" or some other nonsense.

Personal anecdote: From this, he seems like a jerk and you might want to consider taking your thin, athletic, attractive, smart as a whip self and find someone who truly appreciates it.
posted by milarepa at 10:22 PM on September 22, 2007

He's trying to neg you, in a dimwitted hamfisted way. DTMFA.
posted by flabdablet at 10:24 PM on September 22, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]

Shoulda previewed because tk and amyms got it right, but previews for wimps. I like to live on the wildside of metafilter.
posted by milarepa at 10:24 PM on September 22, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

I say this as a not terribly sensitive man - what an arsehole. If you were married or really committed, it would be worth bringing up - "I don't like it when you X. Please stop." - but frankly I wouldn't bother.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:29 PM on September 22, 2007

My last sentence disappeared.

i wouldn't bother. You can do better than this manipulative jerk, and you should.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:31 PM on September 22, 2007

Honestly, this sounds like some kind of Leykis 101 bullshit, with the intention being to keep you just insecure enough that you never stray and always feel obligated to make up for your perceived shortcomings by being extra sure to satisfy him sexually. Or he's just really insecure and wants you to be insecure too so you don't realize what a loser he is and take off for greener pastures.
posted by The Gooch at 10:33 PM on September 22, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

you know, I was just thinking of what an insensitive jerk of a boyfriend I was, when I was 18. I had nothing on your boyfriend.
posted by Good Brain at 10:42 PM on September 22, 2007

I hate to be in lockstep with everybody else here, but yes, this guy is a complete asshole.

This sentence really knocks the ball out of the park in terms of being a major league asshole:

However, he will occasionally talk about the hot bod(ies) of his former love(s) or how going to the beach or pool is the best place to check out the great looking women proliferate in this area.

Dump his ass.
posted by jayder at 10:57 PM on September 22, 2007

In my ideal world, next time you bring this up, the conversation goes something like this:

"All straight men check out women's bodies! I'm just not afraid to say it out loud!"

"You ought to be. Now I'm dumping your sorry ass." That's when you turn and stalk away.
posted by sculpin at 11:11 PM on September 22, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]

When you leave him (and you will, if you're smart as a whip) and end up with a better-looking, smarter, nicer, sexier, funnier, more confident guy who thinks you are "disgustingly" attractive and doesn't try to erode your confidence to boost his own, you will look back and laugh - and be ever so grateful you'll never have to listen to that bullshit again.

Been there, done that.
posted by taz at 11:21 PM on September 22, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Why would guy I'm seeing continually bring up the level of attractiveness of former flames?

Because he's a jerk.

Why does it make me feel like shit?

Because you're dating a jerk. Don't do that. You'll feel better.
posted by Reggie Digest at 11:28 PM on September 22, 2007 [5 favorites has favorites]

Contrary voice here. I'm a bit like your boyfriend. This is occasional material for conversation, and I've shared it with girls I was seeing.

I will limit myself to answering question #2. He might very well like looking at and making occasional remarks about hot chicks (it's not exactly the latest thing) while being perfectly satisfied with you. I can also understand why he wouldn't talk about you in the same terms as the other women he comments on. If he did it would be putting you all in the same category and then the insensitivity would be more apparent. I was told straight out that she wasn't sure I found her attractive and we had a long conversation about it.

I can see that it's a pretty poor choice of topic but it's also easy for me to imagine someone being blind to it without being a completely malicious jerk. And there are also women out there who are perfectly comfortable in talking about how hot other women are. Since that's not you, showing some vulnerability might be an effective way to bring about a change in his behavior. Asking him how he described you is probably too 'subtle' in terms of showing vulnerability.

The part about former lovers just registered with me. That is out of line and the above is probably too generous in his favor.
posted by BigSky at 11:50 PM on September 22, 2007

What an ass. You feel like shit because he's trying to make you feel like shit. It's got nothing to do with the fact that many/most/all straight men check out other women, and everything to do with the fact that he's constantly trying to keep one up on you. I don't care if you have complementary senses of humor and enjoy each other's intelligence; he is treating you unkindly and disrespectfully. And you can bet he's not gonna get any nicer or more empathetic as things carry on, either.

There are plenty of men out there who do not treat women like this, regardless of how much they may happen to appreciate other women's attractiveness. You can do so much better. He's the one with the problem here, not you.
posted by scody at 11:51 PM on September 22, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

Ditto everyone else.

When someone cares about you and loves you, they don't repeatedly and callously engage in a behavior that upsets or hurts you.

Even a guy who is deeply in love with a woman and who thinks that she is incredibly, amazingly attractive, will (gross generalization to follow; my apologies) most likely still pay attention when a supermodel walks by. It happens. Decent guys might (if and only if their girlfriend is okay with such a thing) pass comment on such an occurrence. It happens. It's happened to me, and I wink and nudge him in the ribs a little, 'cause yeah, she was hot.

Decent guys do not harp on how amazingly hot that woman was, I mean dayum, did you see the knockers on her? And those LEGS, they just went on for DAYS. And decent guys will especially not do this when their girlfriend is uncomfortable with this behavior.

I do not think it would be reasonable for you to insist that he put on blinders to every other woman in the world. And I don't think it would be reasonable for you to insist that he never observe that a woman is particularly attractive, and possibly not even to insist that he never comment on it.

But it is damn reasonable for you to not have the exact level of hotness of your friends, acquaintances, and passersby described to you, in a ten-point scale, especially when you have told him that it makes you uncomfortable. If you haven't told him, flat out, "It makes me uncomfortable when you describe other women like that. Please stop." you probably should. And if he blows you off, or if it happens after that...you know where you stand.
posted by fuzzbean at 11:53 PM on September 22, 2007

Here's what you say to him. "You shut up about former lovers, hot bodies, and disgustingly attractive females, and I think that's great." Then he'll get huffy, and that's when you triumphantly dump his insensitive brainless ass.
posted by user92371 at 11:56 PM on September 22, 2007

And there are also women out there who are perfectly comfortable in talking about how hot other women are.

(Sorry, missed this on preview)

BigSky, you're making a false dichotomy here. The division is not between women who can handle the acknowledgment of other women's attractiveness vs. women who are insecure. The dichotomy is between men who can be considerate of their partners' feelings vs. those who can't.

Look, my boyfriend is perfectly aware of other women (in public, in the media, in porn, etc.). I'm perfectly comfortable with that fact (and am perfectly comfortable talking about how hot other women may be, to the point that we've gone to strip clubs together to check out women) precisely because he never compares me negatively to them -- in fact, just the opposite: he makes it clear that, at the end of the day, I'm the women he finds most attractive.

That, however, is diametrically opposed to the way the OP's boyfriend is treating her. So I'll say it again: the problem does not appear to be insecurity on her part; it appears to be callousness on his.
posted by scody at 12:04 AM on September 23, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]

I'm the women
Heh. I may be many things, but multiple-personality is not one of them.
posted by scody at 12:13 AM on September 23, 2007

i don't think he's an insensitive asshole--i think he's insensitive and doesn't realize how much he's bugging you. there's a difference. you can't drop hints to boys--you said you haven't told him how much it bothers you, and you have to. because otherwise he's going to dismiss it, as he has. you can't just point out the bad behavior to a boy, you also have to follow up with what it means to you. otherwise, they don't get it.

so sit down with him and talk to him and let him know that you don't mind if he appreciates the beauty of other women, but it bothers you that he doesn't speak as admiringly about you as he does about them. that's the crux of the problem, it seems to me. if he gushed about your earth-shattering sexiness every morning, you probably wouldn't give a crap if he drooled over the next tart to walk past him at the pub.

now, if he then continues to do this without giving you your due, then he crosses the line from being insensitive to being an asshole.

for what it's worth, it seems like a guy who spends this much time talking about other women must not spend much time talking about anything else. does he have anything else to offer to you, anyway? i don't know, he may be brilliant and talented, but from the information given, he doesn't sound like much of a catch.
posted by thinkingwoman at 12:14 AM on September 23, 2007

God, your boyfriend is a dick.

I say this as someone who not only regularly checks out women with her boyfriend, but engages in brutally honest discussions with him about the relative attractiveness of me and other women, my relative attractiveness to his ex-girlfriends and crushes, his relative attractiveness to other men, and how attracted I am to him relative to other women (as I'm mostly attracted to women and he's the only guy I've ever been attracted to). And you know the only reason this behavior is cool? Ultimately, whether or not it's cool is not dependent on high-minded, unrealistic notions of "security" or "coming home to dinner" or some shit. It's only cool because we're both find with it. Otherwise, if it was making one of us uncomfortable it would be a shitty, shitty, shitty thing to do.

Your boyfriend's doing that shitty thing. Of course people are attracted to people that aren't their partner. But if it's making their partner uncomfortable you don't rub it in your partner's face, repeatedly, and then act condescending when they protest. He's a fucking asshole and you should drop him like a bad habit.
posted by schroedinger at 12:21 AM on September 23, 2007

Two can play at that game. Make candid remarks about other men and their virility. "Wow, I bet that guy's packing heat. He probably fucks like an animal, too. Wow. ...oh, you? Yeah, you're...good. Yeah, don't worry about it. ....God, that guy must make his girlfriend wet just by walking into the room." Continue until you see that bare, insecure look on his face, then have the conversation.

Only if push comes to shove, though. Just tell him straight up that it makes you feel like shit when he talks about other women glowingly. If he doesn't stop, then cut it off. (I don't understand why everyone is pining for you to drop him before even really talking to him about it.)
posted by Mach3avelli at 12:47 AM on September 23, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

And there are also women out there who are perfectly comfortable in talking about how hot other women are.

Yes... I should add to my earlier comment: I think most(?) happy, kind, loving couples do talk about the attractiveness of other people - we do... and my husband works with beautiful young actresses every day (and I'm neither beautiful nor young any more) - and often comments to me that they are lovely, sweet, funny (or bitchy, batshitinsane, whatever). Not ever mentioning these things would feel weird and creepy to me.

But there's a huge difference between sharing observations and admiration regarding other people and using those sorts of comments as a bludgeon to keep one's partner off balance and insecure. There's no mistaking the two things. If his comments make you feel like crap, there is every chance that this is because they're meant to do just that. I guess the goal is to make you feel like you're "lucky" to get him even though you don't really measure up to his usual standards, looks-wise. Ho, ho!

My ex-husband used to rave about his high school girlfriend (as well as doing the other stuff you describe)... and one day, she contacted him to tell him that she was divorced and would like to see him (she lived in another state). I told him to go ahead and see her... and it was the funniest thing ever. Big (dyed) hair, fake boobs, fake nails, piles of makeup, loud, tacky... think ... gem sweater. omg, it was hilarious. When I left him shortly afterwards, she came back to haunt him, determined to net her next (third? fourth?) husband, and he was reduced to a quivering, weeping, jellylike puddle of a man, begging me to come back and trying to shake the faahbulous ex-girlfriend. Sometimes life is good.
posted by taz at 1:04 AM on September 23, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]

Your "boyfriend" (hopefully he's not by now...) sounds "very insensitive," "extremely insensitive," and "disgustingly insensitive." He also sounds a lot like the guy I dated when I was 18 (and I neither know nor care what became of him).

"...all straight men check out women's bodies" = true; "he's just not afraid to say it out loud" = he's too selfish to use a little bit of impulse control (which you have suggested you'd appreciate). Worse, he then guilts you into taking the blame for his refusal to do so ("if only I weren't so sensitive...it's my fault I feel bad about this"). He's also taking advantage of your feelings for him (and not very cleverly, I might add).

People who love us do not intentionally hurt us. When they unintentionally hurt us and we tell them about it, they do whatever they can to stop hurting us. In short, people who love us show us that they love us.
posted by splendid animal at 1:10 AM on September 23, 2007

you can't drop hints to boys--you said you haven't told him how much it bothers you, and you have to. because otherwise he's going to dismiss it, as he has. you can't just point out the bad behavior to a boy, you also have to follow up with what it means to you. otherwise, they don't get it.

Thing is - he's not a boy. He's a man, and men don't (shouldn't) act like this.
posted by tristeza at 1:13 AM on September 23, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]

Even more disturbing to me than the fact that he says these things -- a fact which alone would signal a level of ignorance a man in his late 30s should have long grown out of by now -- is the fact that he defends it by insisting it's an ethical principle (everyone else is dishonest, I'm being honest). That, to me, shows a warped view of personal relations that would scare me a little bit. I think saying DTMFA is totally callous and even worse, mindless aping, but I think you should evaluate whether this is a person whose values are compatible with yours. I can say based on what I know, they aren't compatible with mine.

I've dated men who have this "you can't censor me, woman"/"you can't tell me what to do" antagonistic, defensive approach to their partner and now when I come across it I stay well clear. It demonstrates a chip on their shoulder a mile wide, one that none of my love or time or effort will ever break down. It's a thankless job -- don't try to do it.
posted by loiseau at 1:19 AM on September 23, 2007 [5 favorites has favorites]

Why do I give a damn what he thinks about my looks in comparison to another woman? Why can't I just reassure myself with the "he's coming home with me mantra"?

Perhaps you care about him more than you're willing to admit? Considering that you haven't actually told him how much it's bothering you, it's not too surprising that he continues to do and you can continue to be hurt by.

Why would a guy who seemingly puts looks at the top of his list of "must haves" in a girlfriend, continue to go out with a woman he doesn't consider to be at the top level

It would be easy to say that he can't get those top level woman, but it might also be that it's just a fantasy for him.

is there a way I can unemotionally explain my discomfiture regarding his comments without coming off as completely insecure (or am I completely insecure)?

Well, that depends, are you usually like this in relationships or is this one guy pushing this button for some reason and really throwing you for a loop? It sounds like you care more for him than he does for you.

You need to figure out why this is getting under your skin so much, so you can FINALLY articulate to him that it bothers you and why.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:25 AM on September 23, 2007

This is basically a repeat of the other comments, but just to drive the point home for you...

I'm a jerk, so believe me when I say this guy is a fucking jerk. Dump his socially-inept, insensitive ass. He sounds like a horny teenager, and you're a grown ass woman who probably doesn't need his shit.
posted by Roman Graves at 3:26 AM on September 23, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

1) Because you’re human. Because you might be a bit insecure. Who isn’t?

2) Because those types of girls will probably have nothing to do with him.

3) Difficult to say—depends on the type of person you are, but I wouldn’t want to be with someone who felt the need to constantly remind me how “good” his former flames were. Seriously, you sound like a VERY attractive person yourself, so don’t let this fool bother you.
posted by hadjiboy at 3:41 AM on September 23, 2007

I wonder if this behavior is his way of saying to you that you're not really a serious couple and he doesn't see you as a life partner in the long term. By acting like a dick, he's trying to send you a message that he's not going to be there for the rest of your life, so don't get too attached. He would argue that this is fairer than pretending to care deeply about you, and he might have a point. If you're looking for more, I think it's time for you to find someone more mature.
posted by tomcooke at 4:14 AM on September 23, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

As to why it bothers you so much, I think it's because part of you is interpreting this the same way I am.
posted by tomcooke at 4:15 AM on September 23, 2007

Ahh, he has asperger's or something. I wouldn't say he's a total jerk, as far as that means bad or evil. He's just got a big area of dumb. Like someone with body odor, he doesn't know, and will never ever know, until someone tells him -one way or another.

Although... if he really says he's "not afraid" to say it out loud, maybe the best way to bring him around to reality would be to throw a bucket of cold water in his face.

btw, I don't think he seemingly puts looks at the top of his list of "must haves" in a girlfriend, as you put it. I think it only indicates that he puts looks at the top of his list of things to ogle. Most guys can recognize when a beautiful woman would make a lousy girlfriend.
posted by Rich Smorgasbord at 4:33 AM on September 23, 2007

Oh, and the posters who speculated that it's some kind of manipulation strategy, don't take them too seriously.
posted by Rich Smorgasbord at 4:41 AM on September 23, 2007

I predict that if you continue to tolerate this inappropriate behavior, the day will come when he does something really nuts, as opposed to just crass, and you will be so beaten down that you won't be able to see it, defend yourself or respond reasonably. It's the frog in the boiling pot theory of relationships. Don't stick around until you're cooked.

You're actually lucky: you've got the opportunity to take a great deal of your confidence back in the way you handle breaking up with Mr. Mouth. Are you going to do that, or let him hurt you into the indefinite future?
posted by Scram at 5:20 AM on September 23, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

oh, just leave him if you can. he's entitled to think what he likes, but to say those things to you is horrid, cruel, rude, insensitive and so, whatever his 'intelligence' or other qualities, he ain't worth it.
posted by londongeezer at 5:53 AM on September 23, 2007

What everyone else said, and especially what taz said:

When you leave him (and you will, if you're smart as a whip) and end up with a better-looking, smarter, nicer, sexier, funnier, more confident guy who thinks you are "disgustingly" attractive and doesn't try to erode your confidence to boost his own, you will look back and laugh - and be ever so grateful you'll never have to listen to that bullshit again.

Too many women spend too many years with guys who make them feel like shit. Don't be one of them.
posted by languagehat at 6:09 AM on September 23, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

What he's doing is emotional abuse. DTMFA
posted by brujita at 6:20 AM on September 23, 2007

Oh, and the posters who speculated that it's some kind of manipulation strategy, don't take them too seriously.

You are feeling very sleepy... watch the pendulum... you are not being manipulated...

Of course he is being manipulative. I'm a guy, and I've done this sort of thing before. By making her unsure of her attractiveness, and worried that she is less sexy than the girls you regularly date, she then thinks she has to try extra hard and be extra nice and not comment on any of your glaringly obvious flaws. Win-win, right?

Clearly, it's not behavior to be proud of, and either he needs to stop it or you need to end the relationship. Telling him that it bothers you is a good place to start, although I predict that his answer will be "but all my really hot and sexy girlfriends were totally cool with me talking about other chicks" (because if I were trying to be a manipulative pig that is how I would answer). There is always the classic technique of mirroring his behavior -- making sure to talk about other men in ways that emphasize his lacks. If he isn't convinced that he has the biggest penis in the world, then talking about size with a dreamy look in your eyes can do it -- you just need to do what he is doing, which is finding your areas of vulnerability and working at them. Is he balding? Doesn't have a six-pack abdomen? Can't always get it up? Doesn't earn in the six figures? No matter who he is or how awesome he is, any person will have vulnerabilities and insecurities that other people can manipulate, sad as that is.

The hope would be that by you turning the tables on him, he would see the error of his ways and reform his behavior. Might work, or maybe you would turn into as manipulative and miserable a person as he is, and that isn't a great outcome. So approach the fight fire with fire technique with caution. Ideally, you tell him, "you doing this bothers me, please stop," and he says, "oh, ok, lets look at other women together but then I will emphasize how awesome you are," or "I will look but not talk," and everyone is happy. You do deserve to be treated with respect, and you are entitled to define the boundaries of what that means. But it is also your responsibility to ensure that you are indeed being treated with respect, and to change things if you are not. He won't magically change just because you want him to -- whatever the change is, it will be slow and difficult and painful.
posted by Forktine at 6:34 AM on September 23, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

I don't think you're crazy to have this sort of thing bother you, and I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with who he's coming home to or being "threatened."

There was a short time after my boyfriend and I started watching Project Runway that he got really into evaluating other women's outfits, and making comments to me--"Wow, look at how tight that skirt is! That's really unattractive," blah blah blah. And it bugged the shit out of me--but it was hard to figure out why. After all, he wasn't commenting on how hot they were, and it wasn't like I was actually freaked out that he wanted to start banging them. It was making me really upset, but it really wasn't stemming from jealousy.

But the thing is, I have dealt with my fair share of assholes on the street that felt it was their god-given right to comment on my clothes, my body, my attractiveness level, because they had a penis and that somehow meant I was supposed to care. I mean, starting when I was 12, with the little comments some jerk would make when he walked past you. And that mix of fear and anger and not being able to say anything but wanting to disappear--well, it made an impression. What was really bugging me about my boyfriend's later comments was it fed right back into that retrograde idea that women, solely by virtue of showing up in a public place, deserve to be rated. That our bodies are somehow up for grabs in the public discourse, as an appropriate piece of conversation.

So, if any of your anger about this stems from that sort of place--that by putting himself up as the ultimate arbitrar of women's attractiveness, he's really making a comment about how he sees himself in relation to all women--I think you need to look long and hard about his other attitudes about women. (And I don't think that making your own comments about men are going to really make him realize how awful what he's doing are, because for better or for worse the same cultural ideas about men's worth being tied to their attractiveness is just not there.)
posted by iminurmefi at 6:53 AM on September 23, 2007 [10 favorites has favorites]

flabdablet, and everyone else, has this nailed.
posted by fatllama at 7:48 AM on September 23, 2007

Because you’re human. Because you might be a bit insecure. Who isn’t?

hadjiboy gives good advice, except for this one little point. Insecure or not, who would want to associate with this creep? Not only does he sound like a pathetic asshole, he sounds boring and drippy as well. These kinds of pathetic and asshole-ish comments are a filter and a red flag. Like sexist jokes or braggadocio, these comments are an instant turn- off.

My husband and I appreciate beautiful people just as much as the next person, but this kind of behavior your boyfriend is exhibiting is warped.

You sound like an intelligent woman. Be the better woman and break up with him with dignity. No wonder he has so many "attractive ex-loves" They all dumped his ass too.
posted by LoriFLA at 8:14 AM on September 23, 2007

I wouldn't say he's a total jerk, as far as that means bad or evil.

I would actually say he is bad and evil, because when you think about it, if a person can't be considerate of the feelings of their romantic partner, how good a person can he be? Romantic relationships should be a refuge from assholes ... so when someone habitually treats you like shit within a romantic relationship, yes, that means they're bad and evil.
posted by jayder at 8:23 AM on September 23, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

I wouldn't say he's a total jerk, as far as that means bad or evil. He's just got a big area of dumb. Like someone with body odor, he doesn't know, and will never ever know, until someone tells him -one way or another.

Oh, but he totally knows his behavior is not acceptable. He says that most guys think about women's bodies, he's just not afraid to say it out loud. He's acknowledging that he is aware that he is behaving differently from most men, and he goes as far to say that he thinks that men who behave differently than him are doing so out of fear. That's the response of someone who knows what he is doing and is comfortable enough with it to defend it.
posted by 23skidoo at 8:24 AM on September 23, 2007

I'm caught up on the same aspect of the post as Loiseau. The guy justifies his behavior by saying he's just being honest. It's like he's figured out the one true, good way for people to interact and will hardheadedly defend it against all complaints.

So, when you have a conversation with him, he's likely to pull out little tidbits of wisdom like, "Oh, come on! Don't be unenlightened!" or "It doesn't mean anything! Don't be one of those women who care about how they look."

Try not to be caught off guard by it, if he does. Don't get fooled into accepting his premises about how people ought to behave towards each other. He hasn't figured out the secret to human interactions, and you don't have to justify your feelings in light of his warped view. Like all others have said, he's a jerk and that's all.
posted by Ms. Saint at 8:32 AM on September 23, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Everyone's an amateur psychologist. I still think it's simpler than all these theories: he needs direct, unequivocal negative reinforcement.
posted by Rich Smorgasbord at 8:34 AM on September 23, 2007

Insecure or not, who would want to associate with this creep?

Oh, absolutely, I wasn't implying that notcomputersavvy06 should tolerate his behaviour at all. It sounds like she's already told him (although not outright as she's mentioned) that it makes her feel like a "big zero" anyone who even cared an iota for their girlfriend would not behave in this way.
posted by hadjiboy at 8:49 AM on September 23, 2007

Most guys definitely notice other women, and have fond memories of past lovers, but have the decency to not talk incessantly about it to their current lover. What your guy is doing is an unacceptable and disrespectful form of machismo.

It sounds like he is doing this to control you, and to knock your self-esteem off balance a little bit in order to get you to be a more submissive girlfriend. Either that, or he is fishing to see if you'd be interested in a menage trois.

If you want to continue dating, you're going to have to directly and firmly communicate how much his behavior angers you. Immediately after he makes a comment that hurts you, you need raise your voice and express your anger. Let him see that you are a fierce, powerful force to be reckoned with. Don't play any games with him. Let him know that what he is doing really pisses you off and is unacceptable. Don't let him give you the condescending brush off. If he does not nip this behavior in the bud, you should end the relationship. Don't let this dude crush your spirit and drag your self esteem through the dirt.

Take control.
posted by pluckysparrow at 8:59 AM on September 23, 2007

Passive Agression: Not for Amateurs has some other thoughts on this sort of thing.
posted by occhiblu at 10:06 AM on September 23, 2007

The bottom line is that if it bothers you and he isn't willing to stop it or won't stop it, dump him. It isn't worth the damage to your self-esteem. Later on, when you are with someone who doesn't do that kind of stuff, you will look back on this relationship, and wonder what you were thinking. Maybe he will find someone else that it doesn't bother.
posted by rcavett at 10:44 AM on September 23, 2007

Now it could be that he is a nasty bit of work, but it sounds to me like you are seeing a semi-romantic relationship, and he is seeing something a hair's breadth from friends-with-benefits, resulting in you each having different expectations of the other's place, and where to draw the line.

1. Because you like him. A lot.
2a. He considers you top level, and/or
2b. He considers you a good friend and greatly enjoys time with you, regardless of whether he considers you his love.
3. I think you are being insecure, but that doesn't mean his actions are ok - most secure people would consider some of those examples to be way out of line, regardless of whether it did or didn't make them feel bad about themselves.
The tack I would take is "Even if you don't respect the reason why some of your comments hurt me, you should respect me enough to avoid behaviour that we both know will hurt me."

The gist of it is that you are allowed to be imperfect - the situation is making you miserable and so something has to change, because both of you care about you not being miserable. And if you've honestly tried, but can't change your reactions to his comments, then because he's your friend and partner and a decent person, he should choose to honestly try to just keep that stuff to himself when you're around, and save it for his mates.
If he doesn't think he has any to make allowances for the things that you cannot change, well, he's right. He doesn't have to - he should choose to - because it's the decent thing to do for someone you care about.
posted by -harlequin- at 11:31 AM on September 23, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

As a guy who hasn't always been the most sensitive boyfriend, I want to venture a contrary perspective.

Like many guys in his late 30s, he's experiencing angst over the fact that he's never going to have it all. Namely, he will never be able to have the stable relationship with the mature, smart girl, while simultaneously being able to fuck a never-ending stream of perky young hotties.

This tears him up, and he feels the pressing need to somehow bring his two halves together, to have one validate the other. And his way of doing that is telling you, the validator of him as a stable mature man, about his other side. But he's not bragging. He's confessing.

Let's go out on a limb and suppose that, in spite of all that's been said upthread, there's more to your relationship with this guy than was expressed by your question, and you actually want to work things out with him. Let's suppose that we're going to let go of popular notions of what relationships ought to be like, and just talk about how to solve the problem at hand. Okay, here's what you do.

Tell him that you know he could sleep with all those beautiful younger women if he wanted to. Tell him that you'll always be as sexy for him as you can. And tell him that you're so glad that he has chosen to be with you, and the many things you offer, physical and otherwise, instead of going out with a different 19 year-old every night, which you know he could.

And then - here's the clincher - tell him that, when he goes on about other women's bodies, it makes you feel like he hasn't really decided to be with you instead of them. And tell him that part of being with you means making you feel valued above girls like that. You want to walk around on his arm, past all the other girls that he could be with, and for those girls to look at him and see that he's devoted to you, that he's into you completely, that you're obviously satisfying him. And that you want those girls to see that, and be burning with jealousy. And that this idea totally turns you on.

Here's the reality: he wants you to have this conversation with him. He probably couldn't, or wouldn't, articulate it this way, but that's what's going on. He desperately wants your help in creating an inner life for himself in which he can be with a mother in her late 30s, and still feel like he's a stud. Maybe, based on your more extensive knowledge of him, yourself, and your relationship, you can tweak the above paragraph a bit to fit your situation. But that's the essence of it.
posted by bingo at 12:20 PM on September 23, 2007

Asshole plays petty power game and disguises it as "keepin' it real." You hate it because you're not abnormal. He knows it bothers you yet persists? Dump him.
posted by nanojath at 12:23 PM on September 23, 2007

You are being somewhat insecure, but, conversely, he is being a classless jerk.
posted by WCityMike at 12:43 PM on September 23, 2007

Seems like some folks are advising you to go about the same sort of passive-aggressive game-playing he's been indulging in. Making up some big dialog that isn't true for you and presenting it to him in an effort to change his behavior is a recipe for lots of trouble down the road. I'd suggest just taking the high ground and telling him that you aren't interested in hearing what he thinks about other women's physical appearance, whether he thinks it's the more honest thing to do or not. If he has a problem with that, wish him luck and move on.
posted by Nabubrush at 1:36 PM on September 23, 2007

Maybe this story will help one or both of you.
posted by JanetLand at 1:43 PM on September 23, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

I think people talk about what's important to them, and physical attractiveness is important to him, as well as other guys thinking his gf is attractive. He sounds shallow, and he sounds mean. You deserve much better.
posted by theora55 at 3:21 PM on September 23, 2007

iminurmefi: Well said. Something like that would never have occurred to me, but I can really see it.

Us guys are dumb sometimes.
posted by Chris4d at 4:30 PM on September 23, 2007

Now it could be that he is a nasty bit of work, but it sounds to me like you are seeing a semi-romantic relationship, and he is seeing something a hair's breadth from friends-with-benefits, resulting in you each having different expectations of the other's place, and where to draw the line.

Seconding that bit of analysis from harlequin, because I think it needs to be thought of as a distinct possibility.

Only a total jerk would carry on like that with a girlfriend, so it might be that what he's doing is regularly reminding you that you are only friends-with-benefits, and that he doesn't need to treat you as he would treat a girlfriend.

This could be seen as shitty & manipulative, or you might interpret it in the sense that he sees you as a one-of-the-boys sort of friend. If he's not comparing you disfavourably to other women, it really might be the latter, especially if he's not actually aware that it hurts you (which is actually how I interpret your description of the situation).

Now, I'm not saying that it's a great & ideal way to behave, but he also mightn't be as much of a jerk as people are saying.

(Playing devil's advocate a bit here)
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:20 PM on September 23, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

He reads too much macho crap and thinks that this is "honesty." (Also, he's kind of hoping for a threesome.) Gods, he sounds like an old friend of mine.

Your response is just egging him on, though -- you're giving him a lot of power to define you, you know?
posted by desuetude at 6:54 AM on September 24, 2007

I say DTMFA, but please read Mach3avelli's advice and do that first. His post had me laughing out loud, and your bf certainly deserves a little payback.

What an insensitive, self-centered jerk this guy is. You can do better.
posted by misha at 9:26 AM on September 24, 2007