Help me help my brother.
September 4, 2007 11:33 PM Subscribe
My brother has his head up his butt and I want to help him remove it. As his sibling and one of his only friends, I wish to provide him the best advice possible. So my questions are these: 1) What is a constructive thing to say to a sibling who wants a divorce for all the wrong reasons, 2) How do you get someone into counseling when they don't believe in it? and 3) How does one go about finding a very specific kind of counselor? He'd be best served and less apt to argue with a strong, smart father-figure.
My brother is on the verge of divorce, in part because he resents his wife for "not appreciating how much he sacrificed when he married her and took on stepdad duties to her children." He apparently didn't believe his life as a 30-something bachelor would change all that much. And now they have a child together. And sex only monthly (not his choice). The obvious next step is counseling, something he has little faith in (says they're all just out there to take his money). My best effort to persuade him thus far has been to suggest that he'll want to be able to tell his child that he did everything he could to keep their family together. Including counseling.
My brother is on the verge of divorce, in part because he resents his wife for "not appreciating how much he sacrificed when he married her and took on stepdad duties to her children." He apparently didn't believe his life as a 30-something bachelor would change all that much. And now they have a child together. And sex only monthly (not his choice). The obvious next step is counseling, something he has little faith in (says they're all just out there to take his money). My best effort to persuade him thus far has been to suggest that he'll want to be able to tell his child that he did everything he could to keep their family together. Including counseling.
It sounds like your brother just doesn't have what it takes to be both a father and husband. It's his choice to make. I am glad you are willing to care so much for his family. It sounds though that you might be a better anchor to gather round than he is.
You are misplacing your support. Where are the children in this thought? Where is the mother? Is there someone they can talk to if the father cannot or is not willing? Would that help?
posted by parmanparman at 12:37 AM on September 5, 2007
You are misplacing your support. Where are the children in this thought? Where is the mother? Is there someone they can talk to if the father cannot or is not willing? Would that help?
posted by parmanparman at 12:37 AM on September 5, 2007
I think sometimes you can say stuff baldly to some people and it may get through. But most of the time, it just irritates them and they end up not liking you for it.
You can't change him, particularly if he thinks he's in the right.
posted by b33j at 12:43 AM on September 5, 2007
You can't change him, particularly if he thinks he's in the right.
posted by b33j at 12:43 AM on September 5, 2007
Seconding Plutarch.
posted by lucia__is__dada at 3:13 AM on September 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by lucia__is__dada at 3:13 AM on September 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Just because he's your brother, don't assume you know what's really going on in his marriage. You don't, I assure you.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:41 AM on September 5, 2007
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:41 AM on September 5, 2007
What fourcheesemac said.
Tell him what you think, and then butt out if you can't support him and respect his decisions. It's his life, not yours, and you don't know better than he does what he needs to do to be happy.
posted by biscotti at 3:55 AM on September 5, 2007
Tell him what you think, and then butt out if you can't support him and respect his decisions. It's his life, not yours, and you don't know better than he does what he needs to do to be happy.
posted by biscotti at 3:55 AM on September 5, 2007
maybe his mistake was marrying that woman in the first place. he's obviously too immature to take on fatherhood--perhaps they would be better off without him in the house. at least that way she can be free to find a more suitable partner and co-parent.
he might be throwing away a treasure, but it really doesn't matter if he didn't deserve it in the first place.
you might suggest he try a separation before filing for divorce...the time apart might give him some perspective.
posted by thinkingwoman at 4:28 AM on September 5, 2007
he might be throwing away a treasure, but it really doesn't matter if he didn't deserve it in the first place.
you might suggest he try a separation before filing for divorce...the time apart might give him some perspective.
posted by thinkingwoman at 4:28 AM on September 5, 2007
I think your job as a brother is to:
- give *solicited* advice.
- stick by him, regardless of you feelings about his choice.
As for your quest for a "strong, smart father-figure" type counsellor who, presumably, you hope will instruct your brother on a course of action, I think you are way out of line.
posted by SpacemanRed at 4:51 AM on September 5, 2007
- give *solicited* advice.
- stick by him, regardless of you feelings about his choice.
As for your quest for a "strong, smart father-figure" type counsellor who, presumably, you hope will instruct your brother on a course of action, I think you are way out of line.
posted by SpacemanRed at 4:51 AM on September 5, 2007
The answer to how can I make [person] do [this thing they don't want to do] is generally thus: You can't.
That said, you do have the advantage of not being a random friend, but being a sibling. Classically, this often permits a level of frankness that would be unacceptable from others.
Since you feel that he's being selfish, perhaps try to frame your concerns in a way that jibes with his selfishness. For example, one tactic would be to point out the very real possibility that she's going to take him to the cleaners for alimony/child support and he's going to look like an asshole, which will negatively impact that swinging bachelor lifestyle he's imagining.
Meanwhile, seconding the advice to urge toward a separation before a divorce. Maybe he and his wife both need to cool off and get some perspective.
posted by desuetude at 6:13 AM on September 5, 2007
That said, you do have the advantage of not being a random friend, but being a sibling. Classically, this often permits a level of frankness that would be unacceptable from others.
Since you feel that he's being selfish, perhaps try to frame your concerns in a way that jibes with his selfishness. For example, one tactic would be to point out the very real possibility that she's going to take him to the cleaners for alimony/child support and he's going to look like an asshole, which will negatively impact that swinging bachelor lifestyle he's imagining.
Meanwhile, seconding the advice to urge toward a separation before a divorce. Maybe he and his wife both need to cool off and get some perspective.
posted by desuetude at 6:13 AM on September 5, 2007
Agree that your brother didn't have a clear picture of what marriage, stepparenthood, and parenthood would entail when he embarked... agree that you have to draw the line at pushing him into counseling yourself or selecting his counselor (??).
Disagree that you have to only offer solicited advice, or generally butt out. This is family, not some acquaintance or co-worker. Those children are your nieces/nephews, and I believe that you have a right to want what's best for them, and to talk to your brother about it frankly if you truly believe he's experiencing recto-cranial inversion.
It wouldn't be a good idea to ruin your relationship with him in the process though, or to push him away completely.
If this were my brother, I'd have a tough love conversation with him, with the theme that counseling is The Right Thing to Do. I'd bring up the following points for his consideration:
- Once he brings up divorce, there's no unringing that bell. Even if they don't go through with it, his wife will never trust him again. Something irrevocably changes in a marriage when one partner says, "I want a divorce." So before he makes that statement, he better be 100% absolutely no-take-backs positive.
- Divorce is expensive, both emotionally and financially. Would a few sessions with a good therapist who specializes in relationships really be that high a price to pay? What's to lose? If he spends a few hundred bucks, and then still wants a divorce, then at least he's positive and he can sleep at night knowing he did the right thing. If he spends a few hundred bucks and changes his mind, he's saved thousands and also kept from breaking some very tiny hearts.
- If I were that wife and mom, I can guarantee that the second husband who leaves my children will never see them again. Divorce is hard on a kid, but even harder on a kid twice; children take divorce very personally, and blame themselves: "It's our fault that the daddies leave." As the mother in that situation, you can guaran-godda**-tee that my first children will never see that second dad again... there would simply be too much pain and confusion for them. Is he ready for that? That if he gets divorced, he'll see his own kid again as ordered by the courts, but likely be kept at arm's length from the stepchildren -- the ones who are his own child's half-siblings?
- Your brother needs to grow up. It's harsh, but it's true. Marriage is work. Parenthood is work. It would be immature and selfish to leave a bird in the hand for two in the bush. Especially if, as you can demonstrate to him, he hasn't even taken the time or energy to find out if the problem is with him, and his outlooks and his perspective. He seems to be assuming that his wife and kids are the problem, and that he could leave them, sow some more wild oats, and eventually find Version 2.0, which will be better -- his idealized vision of a domestic life which requires no work on his part.
But what if he's the problem, and he jumps out of this frying pan into another fire? Is he prepared to accept that risk?
- Marriage is work, parenthood is work, Part 2: I would play the honorable-man card with my brother. It might not be right for everyone, but he and I have the relationship where I can say to him, "I was standing up there with you, and you stood on that altar and you gave your word. And you gave your word to that baby you made. Did you not mean it? If you meant it, then don't you owe it to your family to honor your commitment and try every possible option to keep your word?" (I realize this approach might not be for everyone)
You're a good egg for trying to help your brother's family. Good luck, I hope it all works out for the best.
posted by pineapple at 6:31 AM on September 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
Disagree that you have to only offer solicited advice, or generally butt out. This is family, not some acquaintance or co-worker. Those children are your nieces/nephews, and I believe that you have a right to want what's best for them, and to talk to your brother about it frankly if you truly believe he's experiencing recto-cranial inversion.
It wouldn't be a good idea to ruin your relationship with him in the process though, or to push him away completely.
If this were my brother, I'd have a tough love conversation with him, with the theme that counseling is The Right Thing to Do. I'd bring up the following points for his consideration:
- Once he brings up divorce, there's no unringing that bell. Even if they don't go through with it, his wife will never trust him again. Something irrevocably changes in a marriage when one partner says, "I want a divorce." So before he makes that statement, he better be 100% absolutely no-take-backs positive.
- Divorce is expensive, both emotionally and financially. Would a few sessions with a good therapist who specializes in relationships really be that high a price to pay? What's to lose? If he spends a few hundred bucks, and then still wants a divorce, then at least he's positive and he can sleep at night knowing he did the right thing. If he spends a few hundred bucks and changes his mind, he's saved thousands and also kept from breaking some very tiny hearts.
- If I were that wife and mom, I can guarantee that the second husband who leaves my children will never see them again. Divorce is hard on a kid, but even harder on a kid twice; children take divorce very personally, and blame themselves: "It's our fault that the daddies leave." As the mother in that situation, you can guaran-godda**-tee that my first children will never see that second dad again... there would simply be too much pain and confusion for them. Is he ready for that? That if he gets divorced, he'll see his own kid again as ordered by the courts, but likely be kept at arm's length from the stepchildren -- the ones who are his own child's half-siblings?
- Your brother needs to grow up. It's harsh, but it's true. Marriage is work. Parenthood is work. It would be immature and selfish to leave a bird in the hand for two in the bush. Especially if, as you can demonstrate to him, he hasn't even taken the time or energy to find out if the problem is with him, and his outlooks and his perspective. He seems to be assuming that his wife and kids are the problem, and that he could leave them, sow some more wild oats, and eventually find Version 2.0, which will be better -- his idealized vision of a domestic life which requires no work on his part.
But what if he's the problem, and he jumps out of this frying pan into another fire? Is he prepared to accept that risk?
- Marriage is work, parenthood is work, Part 2: I would play the honorable-man card with my brother. It might not be right for everyone, but he and I have the relationship where I can say to him, "I was standing up there with you, and you stood on that altar and you gave your word. And you gave your word to that baby you made. Did you not mean it? If you meant it, then don't you owe it to your family to honor your commitment and try every possible option to keep your word?" (I realize this approach might not be for everyone)
You're a good egg for trying to help your brother's family. Good luck, I hope it all works out for the best.
posted by pineapple at 6:31 AM on September 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
I'd highly recommend His Needs, Her Needs by Willard Harley. His approach to couples therapy is nothing short of genius. No hocus pocus, just honesty and a genuine attempt to understand what makes a marriage work.
I agree with pineapple, you're a good brother for trying to help - even if your advice is unsolicited.
Best of luck to your brother and his family.
posted by stuboo at 6:57 AM on September 5, 2007
I agree with pineapple, you're a good brother for trying to help - even if your advice is unsolicited.
Best of luck to your brother and his family.
posted by stuboo at 6:57 AM on September 5, 2007
My only input is that decisions like divorce are huge, life-changing ones, and should be made over a long period of time with lots of checking in with everyone involved. Feelings change over time too, so if he's hasty he might find he really regrets rushing into anything a few years down the line. Life with small kids is hard and people forget about the good times past and future.
It might be helpful if you could get him to SLOW down. Encourage him not to get involved with a new woman, not to burn any bridges, just take time for himself, and not just a big chunk all at once - consistent time over a long time, at least a year. Counseling can be helpful but also frustrating if it's not what he's looking for. You can help him find out what he needs by talking to him and encouraging him to find time to think about things.
Hope that helps.
posted by MiffyCLB at 8:06 AM on September 5, 2007
It might be helpful if you could get him to SLOW down. Encourage him not to get involved with a new woman, not to burn any bridges, just take time for himself, and not just a big chunk all at once - consistent time over a long time, at least a year. Counseling can be helpful but also frustrating if it's not what he's looking for. You can help him find out what he needs by talking to him and encouraging him to find time to think about things.
Hope that helps.
posted by MiffyCLB at 8:06 AM on September 5, 2007
I can sympathize with your position. Your brother has created a mess by taking on someone else's children and then having one of his own. Now he's going to bolt now that things have gotten tough and a lot of innocent kids are left in his wake. As his brother, you want to see him do the right thing and at least try to make it work. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem like a man floundering unsure what to do, he just wants out. I don't think you can make him be the man he needs to be and I don't think therapy will do it either.
Really if I were you, I'd give him your opinion on what you think he's doing (you're his brother he is your business to a certain extent and you are allowed to tell him what you think of what he is doing) and then if the situation allows for it I would try to be there for his soon to be ex-wife and children in anyway you can.
posted by whoaali at 8:49 AM on September 5, 2007
Really if I were you, I'd give him your opinion on what you think he's doing (you're his brother he is your business to a certain extent and you are allowed to tell him what you think of what he is doing) and then if the situation allows for it I would try to be there for his soon to be ex-wife and children in anyway you can.
posted by whoaali at 8:49 AM on September 5, 2007
My best effort to persuade him thus far has been to suggest that he'll want to be able to tell his child that he did everything he could to keep their family together. Including counseling.
This phenomenon needs a name. Something like self-answering, but funnier. The poster already has the proper answer.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:51 AM on September 5, 2007
This phenomenon needs a name. Something like self-answering, but funnier. The poster already has the proper answer.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:51 AM on September 5, 2007
Whatever happens, you keep in touch with your brother's kids. They'll appreciate it.
posted by JimN2TAW at 11:40 AM on September 5, 2007
posted by JimN2TAW at 11:40 AM on September 5, 2007
If your brother wants out, he's going to go.
When people are frightened of counseling, I always suggest that they consider it like consultation or like coaching. That takes away some of the fear of visiting a "mind doctor" and puts it in the frame of visiting an accountant or something - i.e., you're going to consult with an expert in a matter of importance to you.
I also suggest that they go into it with a clear expectation that they only want a limited term, say 6 sessions. The outer time limit seems to help alleviate anxiety about it "taking forever." If this helps, be sure to find a counselor/therapist who is familiar with working like this. Many therapists are trained in long term models and will be uncomfortable approaching a client with a time limit. But if you find someone who's familiar with this kind of approach, 6 sessions or so should be enough time that your brother could come away with a good sense of what he might be dealing with if he were to divorce or not, and what kind of work he might benefit from doing on on himself.
As far as how to find the therapist/couselor, there have been many ask.mf questions about this in the past, and you could review those.
posted by jasper411 at 12:20 PM on September 5, 2007
When people are frightened of counseling, I always suggest that they consider it like consultation or like coaching. That takes away some of the fear of visiting a "mind doctor" and puts it in the frame of visiting an accountant or something - i.e., you're going to consult with an expert in a matter of importance to you.
I also suggest that they go into it with a clear expectation that they only want a limited term, say 6 sessions. The outer time limit seems to help alleviate anxiety about it "taking forever." If this helps, be sure to find a counselor/therapist who is familiar with working like this. Many therapists are trained in long term models and will be uncomfortable approaching a client with a time limit. But if you find someone who's familiar with this kind of approach, 6 sessions or so should be enough time that your brother could come away with a good sense of what he might be dealing with if he were to divorce or not, and what kind of work he might benefit from doing on on himself.
As far as how to find the therapist/couselor, there have been many ask.mf questions about this in the past, and you could review those.
posted by jasper411 at 12:20 PM on September 5, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
It sounds like your brother has already expressed an unwillingness to take your concern for him into consideration, so I tend to doubt there is anything you can do other than let him make his own choices.
If you've said as diplomatically (without being condescending) as possible something along the lines of, "I care about your future and I want to help and here is what I think..." and he is still unwilling to alter his course then there really isn't anything you can do other than standing by and continuing to be there for him even as he is "messing up."
Maybe divorce is the best thing for him? How would you really know otherwise? You presumably don't live with his wife or really know what their marriage is like... on the surface it may seem like a bad thing, but who can say for sure?
At the end of the day he is an adult, he can make his own choices. Maybe he is making a mistake... that's life. Maybe he'll look around a few years from now and say, "Woah, I should have listened to you back then..." So what if he does? Or doesn't? All you can hope is that your brother does what is right for himself and learns from his mistakes...
posted by wfrgms at 12:01 AM on September 5, 2007 [1 favorite]