The King of California?

May 4, 2004 4:50 PM

Law question. The Constitution prohibits the United States awarding titles of nobility, right? So is it illegal if a Congressman holds a ceremony crowning someone king? What if it's part of a religious ceremony? What cases have explored this area?
posted by inksyndicate to law & government (16 comments total)

As you can see, there are very few annotations...Art. 1 §10 cl. 1 also prevents States from granting titles of nobility.

Sec. 9, Cl 8.  Titles of nobility--Presents from foreign state.

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, Office, or Title of any kind whatever from any King, Prince, or foreign State.


INTERPRETIVE NOTES AND DECISIONS

1. Titles of nobility
2. Acceptance of emolument
 
1. Titles of nobility
   Congress and state equally are expressly prohibited from granting any title of nobility. Legal Tender Case (1884) 110 US 421, 28 L Ed 204, 4 S Ct 122.
   When Constitution declares that no title of nobility shall be granted by United States, it goes to competency of Congress to pass bill of that description. Downes v Bidwell (1901) 182 US 244, 45 L Ed 1088, 21 S Ct 770.
 
2. Acceptance of emolument
   Members of uniform services who receive retirement pay must obtain consent of Congress before accepting employment in civil work force of foreign nation, and failure to do so justifies withholding of retirement pay in amount of foreign emolument received. (1979) 58 Op Comp Gen p. 487.
   Prohibition against employment of federal officers or employees by foreign government without consent of Congress under Article 1, § 9, clause 8 of Constitution and approvals required under 37 USCS § 801 note in order to permit such employment do not apply to retired members of uniform services employed by foreign corporation if corporation maintains separate identity and does not become mere agent or instrumentality of foreign government. (1983) 62 Op Comp Gen p 432.
posted by anathema at 5:01 PM on May 4, 2004

Referring to this I assume? Or are you referring to a different congressional coronation in a federal building of the next Messiah?
posted by spacehug at 5:13 PM on May 4, 2004

Referring to this I assume?

That link definitely deserves a post to the blue.
posted by kickingtheground at 5:27 PM on May 4, 2004

it's not official, though, so it doesn't matter. i could grant any titles of nobility i want, though they wouldn't hold weight.

this is seriously the most fucked up thing that's happened on federal property. others can bandy about worrying about carved rocks on government property, and i hope you choke on your rhetoric. but this is....man, it's nuts.
posted by taumeson at 5:37 PM on May 4, 2004

Holy crap! That is weird.
posted by anathema at 5:58 PM on May 4, 2004

Weird, but Constitutional.
posted by anathema at 6:00 PM on May 4, 2004

Okay. I'm freaking out. What the fuck is this? I've read the linked article twice.

"After members of Congress invited Sun Myung Moon into the Dirksen Senate Office Building where he was crowned the Messiah"

What happened here?
posted by y6y6y6 at 6:02 PM on May 4, 2004

That is perhaps the most disturbing thing I've yet read on the Internet. No one -- no one! -- should be giving that freaking fruitcake cultist any sort of legitimacy. It's dangerous, it's stupid, it's creepy, it's insane.

All hell should have been breaking loose about it.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:20 PM on May 4, 2004

"After members of Congress invited Sun Myung Moon into the Dirksen Senate Office Building where he was crowned the Messiah"

Eh, I've seen worse.

I blame it on the near impossibility of getting taxpayer standing to litigate Establishment Clause cases.
posted by PrinceValium at 6:27 PM on May 4, 2004

it's not official, though, so it doesn't matter. i could grant any titles of nobility i want, though they wouldn't hold weight.

Right, this is what I'm curious about. If I named you the Prince of America, it wouldn't be official. Let's say I'm an elected official and I do it. Better yet, let's say there are a bunch of us. What conditions have to be met for it to be an official declaration of the United States, and not just fluff?
Would it have to pass through both houses of Congress to count? I'll go read Legal Tender (18--).
posted by inksyndicate at 6:47 PM on May 4, 2004

That link definitely deserves a post to the blue.

Done!
posted by PrinceValium at 8:01 PM on May 4, 2004

What conditions have to be met for it to be an official declaration of the United States, and not just fluff?
Would it have to pass through both houses of Congress to count?

Presumably. Though it would presumably also bar the President from issuing an executive order naming me Count of Chocula or the Duke of Earl.

Probably, though, all that it means is that even if both houses of Congress passed and the President signed a bill naming me the Ayatollah of Rock-and-Rollah, I would still not have all of the rights and privileges thereunto pertaining.

That is, that provision in the Constitution is saying that no matter what you do, it ain't never official. Unless you get a constitutional amendment ratified to proclaim me King Vit-A-Man.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:11 PM on May 4, 2004

ROU_Xenophobe - Is that a dare ?
posted by troutfishing at 10:06 PM on May 4, 2004

Oh, okay. So it just means that while it wouldn't be illegal for Congress to name you the Thin White Duke, it would be illegal for you to receive special status because of it.
posted by inksyndicate at 11:25 PM on May 4, 2004

ROU_Xenophobe - Is that a dare ?

If you wanna use your piscine influence to get me proclaimed the Count of Chocula or the Ayatollah of Rock and Rollah, go right ahead. I'd even settle for being named Kool-Aid if doing so gave me the power and right to burst through the walls of any who dared speak my name*.

I wouldn't want to be King Vit-A-Man though. Only a complete tool would willingly be featured on the box of a "healthy" but sweet kid's cereal. Real men get onto the box of Choco-Frosted Sugar Bombs.

*A friend in college had a poser: what it you said "Hey, K***-A**" in a moving vehicle? Would that fat bastard just chase after you, huffing and puffing until his heart exploded? Are you safe in an air- or space-craft, or does he have mad jumping skillz?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:14 AM on May 5, 2004

Though it would presumably also bar the President from issuing an executive order naming me Count of Chocula

Been done (well, kinda)
posted by MrMoonPie at 11:07 AM on May 5, 2004