Advice Sought on Yet Another Speeding Ticket Questions

August 8, 2007 12:29 PM

SpeedingTicketFilter: I just got a ticket for going 85 at a limited highway (70mph speed limit), outside of Detroit, MI (on I275). The problem is I had my cruise set at 74, so I know for a fact that I couldn't be going that fast. How do I fight it?

Ok, here are more facts:

1) Not my first speeding ticket, I've gotten others before: never on a highway, usually for going 30 on a 25mph road (none of my tickets are more than 5 over the limit, which has no points associated with it in Michigan). I seem to average about a ticket per year, not all speeding but all very minor - failure to yield at a stop sign, etc. I've never been involved in accidents. I always pay the tickets, because I know I'm guilty, but this time it's different.

2) I had my 10-month old baby in the car and I was in no hurry, so I was going at the speed of the traffic and not doing any aggressive stuff like changing lanes, etc. I know that Michigan is an absolute-speed-limit state, so "going at the speed of traffic" is not a valid reason (at least not one you argue in the court). But, the fact of the matter is I was going at a safe speed, with other cars on the traffic. As part of the normal traffic flow, I passed some cars, and other cars passed me. In fact, just 30 seconds before I got stopped, a car passed me on the left, and two other cars zoomed passed me on the right, so I know I wasn't going THAT fast, nor was I the fastest on the road.

3) When I saw the sirens at my back, I looked at my speedometer and indeed it was at 74. I had my foot of the gas pedal too, so I couldn't have accidentally been speeding either.

4) The cop told me that he clocked me first at 88 and then at 85. Very respectfully, I told him that I didn't see how it was possible, and explained to him everything above (cruise set, baby in the back, in no hurry, checked speedometer, cars passed me 30 seconds ago). He said he didn't care and that I could argue that in court if I wanted to, and wrote me a ticket for 85; so 15 over the speed limit.

This was on the 29th of the month, so I am convinced that he was trying to meet his quota and was on the hunt (again, I know this isn't something I could use in the court). It was also dusk, so it is quite possible that he confused me with one of the other cars that passed me moments before.

However, even though I'm convinced that I wasn't going that fast, all of the above arguments is "you said - he said", obviously I have no documentation to prove anything I said and I wouldn't be surprised for the judge to believe the officer's word over mine.

I don't mind paying the fee, but 15 over also comes with 2 points. So if I was able to have it reduced to 5 over, I get no points and thus no impact on my insurance (plus that was really what my speed was, so it would be fair).

I read the dozen or so AskMF threads on the topic, and did some Googling. As usual, there is more misinformation on the Internets than real info, but there was some good stuff on ExpertLaw, and WorldLawDirect and Nolo, among others.

I called the court and they gave me two options: "appear before a magistrate with the officer present and argue your case; It's all-or-nothing. Or, appear before a prosecutor and the judge, and try to negotiate a lesser fine". I chose the latter.

What should my strategy be at the court? I know I need to dress nicely and be humble that I shouldn't piss off the judge, the prosecutor, or the officer. But, do I tell the truth and hope that they listen to me to negotiate a lesser penalty? Or, do I follow some of the harsher --and time consuming-- tactics of reading up on the case law and questioning things like the calibration and maintenance records of the device, the training of the officer, etc. to try to find a technical way to have the case dismissed? I don't have a lawyer training, nor necessarily the time to become a self-designated lawyer in the 15 days I have before appearing at the court. I could read some of the stuff but obviously will never be as knowledgeable as the prosecutor.

So, to summarize the questions are:

1) Does anybody have experience with the 35th District Court in Plymouth to give me an idea how things go at that court?

2) Is it worth getting a lawyer for this and how much would it cost?

3) Do any of those e-books sold on the Internet for fighting speeding tickets worth buying (personally they all look like scam, but I would be interested to hear if anyone tried them)? (1) (2) (3) (4) etc.

4) How do you negotiate with a prosecutor? Before, the date of the court? Early that morning? During the court? What do you say? How do you approach him? Is this the same everywhere, or does it change from state to state, court to court?

5) If I should argue it myself, what should my strategy be? Go for the honest truth and hope for justice, or try to win on a technicality, or a third strategy?

Thanks, if you've patiently read so far :)

posted by tuxster to law & government (28 comments total)

If you could prove that your speedometer is out of adjustment (reading low) you might be able to get some leniency.
posted by jeblis at 12:34 PM on August 8, 2007

It is not worth getting a lawyer.

If you actually think it could related to your speedometer, take it into a shop and have them run a quick (and probably free or at most $20 check) on your car's computer to see if there is something wonky with your speedometer. If so, take the findings to court and it'll probably be thrown out.

I know when I argue tickets I go before the judge, he asks how I plea, I say "Not Guilty" and then he gives me a new court date when the officer will be there. Ohio here.
posted by banannafish at 12:37 PM on August 8, 2007

Conversely, if you can't prove it's correct (when was the last time you had it calibrated?) you can't use it to say "I wasn't going 85."

Well, you can try, but the prosecutor can ask when you calibrated it... "never" isn't a very strong response.
posted by jeffamaphone at 12:38 PM on August 8, 2007

Thanks for the responses so far. But again, I know I was going AT the speed of traffic, so unless everyone was going 85 the theory that my speedometer is wrong wouldn't hold. And if that were the case, the three cars that passed me 30 seconds before I was stopped must have been going 95-100. So I doubt that's the reason. (However, it's probably worth the effort so I'll take it to a mechanic to see if they find a problem with it. And if not, at the very least, as jeffamaphone suggested I could say "I was so shocked that I took my car to a mechanic to see if the speedometer could have been wrong, and here is the mechanic's report" So perhaps that might add some more believability to my argument that I wasn't going as fast??)

banannafish: As I understand it, I already pleaded "Not Guilty" by asking for a court date (I could have just paid the fine if I thought I was guilty). My understanding from the clerk is that the day given to me is when the officer and the prosecutor and the judge will be ready to discuss the case. So, things must be running differently in Michigan than in Ohio.
posted by tuxster at 12:47 PM on August 8, 2007

Even if your speedometer was not correct, that doesn't mean they will throw the ticket out. I was in traffic court (in TN) a couple of years ago and witnessed the following. A young man got a ticket for going 15 miles over the speed limit, but was positive his speedometer only showed him going 5 over. He was so confident, that later he asked his dad to pace him in another car to see if his speedometer was off. Ironically, while his dad was pacing him, he managed to get another speeding ticket. They took the car into the shop, got a note from the mechanic that the speedometer was indeed off by x amount, and the guy and his dad came to court together. The judge, while sympathetic, did not throw out the tickets (although he may have reduced them). The judge said that having a faulty car doesn't let you off the hook.

Your best bet is to hope that the cop doesn't to show up to court. I don't know about MI, but in many states, if the cop isn't in court (which isn't uncommon), then the ticket gets thrown out.
posted by kimdog at 12:55 PM on August 8, 2007

Other people were going faster is not a valid defense. Have your speedometer checked and calibrated, explain this to the judge and try to get PBJ. You can also contact the officer that gave you the ticket and find out when the radar gun he used to clock you was calibrated. If he was moving when he clocked you, you could get the calibration records for his speedometer as well.
posted by electroboy at 12:55 PM on August 8, 2007

You can usually get an attorney to handle a simple speeding ticket for something like $50.

You should get one. It will be worth it.
posted by dios at 1:05 PM on August 8, 2007

I once got a ticket in a similar circumstance. I argued (in MD) that I was safely moving with the flow of traffic and in fact I found myself in a dangerous situation near aggressive drivers, and felt the need to accelerate out of that pocket of traffic when the officer stopped me. The key is, the officer did not remember the specifics of my case, and it was my first ticket, so I got off by paying court costs.

You have a right, though I don't know how to formally request this, to review the certification and accuracy of the device the officer used to assess you were speeding, since that's the evidence that's being used against you. Ie- if it's a laser, it need to be periodically inspected and calibrated. If it hasn't been, or is almost due to be... boom, dismissed. Also, if there is an error in the ticket about make or color of the car, you can argue the officer confused you with another of the high speed cars that had passed you.

Remember, the burden of proof is not on you, it's on the state. By showing up, being respectful and clearly hitting two or three salient points that bring doubt into the officer's case, you should be able to get at least a reduction. Good luck. (Oh, IANAL.)
posted by raconteur at 1:08 PM on August 8, 2007

It's unfortunate that "I was going with the flow of traffic" isn't a valid excuse. I lived in the Detroit area for a few years, and I know that not keeping up with the flow of traffic can be more dangerous than speeding.

The other thing that struck me about driving on the highways of Detroit is the level of tailgating that goes on. Not to start a flame war, but Holy Cow, people in Detroit tailgate! You could always try to play the "I was just trying to protect my baby from the tailgater behind me" card.

All that said, "calibration" is a two-way street. Not only should you have your speedometer tested, but when you go to court, you should ask the court to check the calibration records for the device the cop was using. If the device has not been calibrated within a certain period of time, its readings may not be admissable.

Standard disclaimers apply... Good luck in court.
posted by jknecht at 1:09 PM on August 8, 2007

Just one more point

4) How do you negotiate with a prosecutor? Before, the date of the court? Early that morning? During the court? What do you say? How do you approach him? Is this the same everywhere, or does it change from state to state, court to court?

5) If I should argue it myself, what should my strategy be? Go for the honest truth and hope for justice, or try to win on a technicality, or a third strategy?

Thanks, if you've patiently read so far :)
posted by tuxster to law & government (7 comments total)

These two questions ask for specific legal advice. No licensed attorney can ethically answer them without creating an attorney-client relationship. Anyone not a lawyer giving you that advice is engaged in the unauthorized practice of law which is a crime in most states.
posted by dios at 1:10 PM on August 8, 2007

Since noone seems to have asked, you didn't recently (or ever) replace your tires with a diameter that isn't the same as the manufacturer's, did you?

If the change is substantial, you would have an inaccurate speedometer.
posted by saeculorum at 1:21 PM on August 8, 2007

Hi dios, thanks for your point: Let me clarify -- I'm asking for "personal opinions" and not legal advice. Sorry if the language I used in wording the questions was misleading.
posted by tuxster at 1:21 PM on August 8, 2007

Show up in court, the cops rarely do.

Secondly, tell the judge the cop wouldn't let you see his radar gun when you told the cop you thought he was wrong.
posted by four panels at 1:38 PM on August 8, 2007

I've gotten speeding tickets (all in Michigan) before and have gone to court to fight all of them. Even though I was definitely guilty and usually given a break by the officer anyway (once I was doing approximately 21 over on I96 and he only wrote me for ten over). The best advice I ever got was the first time I went to court, and a guy I was waiting with told me I should talk to the officer. Take him aside (outside of the courtroom) and tell him, I'm not trying to deny responsibility, and I'll pay a fine, but I had my cruise control set at 74. I'm not trying to wiggle out of this, but is there anything else we can do? All they really want is your money anyway, they could care less about the points you have. The officer in my first ticket situation stopped me when I said "I'm not trying to deny responsibility, but-" and he said, "But you don't want the points." I said "Exactly." He had the judge change the ticket to defective equipment, I paid 80 bucks and was home free. It sounds like you could definitely use that in this case, because maybe your cruise IS defective.
Or, you can always hope the officer doesn't show up to court that day, and you walk away scot-free.
Good luck!!!!
By the way, were you pulled over by a MI state trooper or a local guy?
(Also, I don't know if anyone else can attest to this, but I've heard from several police friends that those quotas are not real.)
posted by slyboots421 at 1:42 PM on August 8, 2007

To get a feel for how court works, you might find out when traffic court is in session prior to your scheduled appearance and spend a few hours watching other cases go through.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 1:54 PM on August 8, 2007

Conversely, if you can't prove it's correct (when was the last time you had it calibrated?) you can't use it to say "I wasn't going 85."

Well, you can try, but the prosecutor can ask when you calibrated it... "never" isn't a very strong response.

Okay first of all speedometers are designed to 'fail slow', meaning that if they don't work properly they should say you are going faster then you are.

You should request, and then supena a copy of the police officers camera. They should have videotaped everything from their dashboard camera. If the tape shows someone passing you earlier on, that should be helpful.

Show up in court, the cops rarely do.

Depends on where you live. Some cops are busier then others.
posted by delmoi at 1:54 PM on August 8, 2007

I got a parking ticket a few years ago that I challenged. When I showed up for court, I spoke to the prosecutor before the court appearance and we talked through the situation. She basically said that technically I was in the wrong, but they would dismiss the ticket anyway. She told me that I could have/should have called her office ahead of time, and could have avoided the time and expense of setting a court date.

So call the DA office and ask to speak to the prosecutor assigned to your case. Even if they don't dismiss the ticket, it will give you a sense of what their arguments are, so you can prepare for court.
posted by jpdoane at 2:19 PM on August 8, 2007

>I know I was going AT the speed of traffic, so unless everyone was going 85 the theory that my speedometer is wrong wouldn't hold

I used to live in Detroit. The ambient speed of traffic on Detroit freeways is very often 85.
posted by yclipse at 2:28 PM on August 8, 2007

Get a lawyer. Get a lawyer who does a lot of traffic work in that court. He/she will know the judge and the prosecutor and probably the cop. Also what tack to take with each one, and what rubs each the wrong way.
The small amount of $$ you will invest in this representation will be well worth it.
posted by mmf at 3:12 PM on August 8, 2007

Which court would you be going to? The District court in Downtown Detroit? If this is the case, just show up and fight it. I have had a handful of tickets (for various things including speeding) and all have been tossed no matter how much I deserved them. Generally the cops simply do not show up in Detroit.
posted by nameless.k at 3:57 PM on August 8, 2007

I'd recommend a traffic lawyer.

I have a family member who is under 21 who got two tickets within two months, one for speeding and one for turning on a red or something (he was in the intersection on the yellow, completed his turn, was hit by a car). According to Illinois law two tickets under 21 means automatic license suspension for two years. They got a lawyer who does a lot of traffic work in that court (I think it cost them around $100). My family member didn't even have to go to court - the lawyer got both tickets dropped and he doesn't even have supervision or have to go to traffic school or anything. I was pretty amazed. And now am convinced that it's worth getting a lawyer to handle traffic tickets.
posted by la petite marie at 4:27 PM on August 8, 2007

If you want advice on WHEN to negotiate with the prosecutor... call his/her office. They will be able to tell you their local policies and practices. Some other points, IANAL, IANYL, TINLA:

1. Admitting that you were speeding for ANY REASON is a very dangerous gambit. Speeding in most states is a "strict liability" offense, meaning that it doesn't matter WHY you were speeding. In some places if your speedometer is off, you get your ticket tossed. Here, you get sympathy from the judge along with your guilty verdict.

2. Seriously, get a lawyer who does a lot of traffic cases. They'll know what they're doing.

3. Not every cop has a camera, not every cop runs it all the time.

4. If you did not ask to see the speedometer reading, do not say that you did in court, and do not say that the officer "wouldn't let you" see it. On top of this being perjury, If you get caught in even one lie in traffic court, you can kiss your chances of winning goodbye.

5. Get a lawyer.
posted by toomuchpete at 5:36 PM on August 8, 2007

Show up in court, the cops rarely do.

Don't be so sure. I was once stopped and the cop literally told me "Hey, you can challenge the ticket, I don't care. I get overtime for going to court." I actually think that's why he stopped me, for the OT.
posted by vignettist at 5:40 PM on August 8, 2007

1 - No, sorry.
2 - Yes. Call around, it probably won't be much.
3 - Following the advice in those books is likely to piss off the judge.
4 - Let the lawyer do it.
5 - That depends on the court. Either go and watch before your court date to formulate a strategy, or let a lawyer do it for you.

Traffic court (in general) isn't a big deal when you are just talking about minor speeding offenses. But it really helps to prepare, or pay someone that already knows the process.
posted by bh at 7:29 PM on August 8, 2007

This happened to me. I had to go and get my speed-o-meter caliburated. They gave me a little print out detailing what they recorded. I brought it to court. The judge looked at it, reduced the fine. I still had to pay something but it was less. I didn't get any points. This was in Georgia.
posted by bkeene12 at 8:25 PM on August 8, 2007

A faulty speedo can get you off one hook and onto another. In VA, I'm told that there's some other offense you get convicted off (operating an unsafe vehicle/faulty equipment, etc.) that may be more expensive than speeding but carries fewer points.

Still, I think presenting the certified results of a speedo test in court would help you, even if your speedo does not underreport. The judge could see it as an upright citizen move to check out this possible problem with your car, and proving your equipment right could make the judge more inclined to your position that the cop is just plain wrong.

A suggested quick check method for the speedo (not what you want to use in court!) is to borrow a GPS unit and compare it's speed result while cruise-controlling on a good strecth of flat road. Be sure to test near the speed that your speedo reported in this incident; my speedo starts to overreport above 50, by nearly 5%. I believe it's intentional.
posted by NortonDC at 9:37 PM on August 8, 2007

slyboots421 writes "I don't know if anyone else can attest to this, but I've heard from several police friends that those quotas are not real."

Traffic cops, like everyone else, under go performance reviews. Pretend for a minute you are a traffic cop. If the average ticket rate is 4 per hour and you're only getting 3 how do you suppose that review is going to go? Assuming you don't go around clubbing people number of citations per time unit is essentially the only hard metric they have to judge your performance. So ya there probably aren't hard limits in most jurisdictions but the cops know what is expected.
posted by Mitheral at 10:10 PM on August 8, 2007

Adding to Mitheral... can you imagine the hell a cop would have to deal with in court if he ever DID admit to quotas? Any ticket given (esp. at the end of a month) would be highly suspect.

Giving cops a reason to lie does nothing to help their credibility... so even if there was a hard-and-fast quota in a particular department, you'd never hear about it from anyone inside.
posted by toomuchpete at 8:30 AM on August 9, 2007