Comments on: Please Help Me Get Some Files Off a Prehistoric Macintosh

Question: Please Help Me Get Some Files Off a Prehistoric Macintosh

interrobang — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:35:08 -0800

Please help me get the contents of an Apple 7300/200 Power Macintosh off of it and onto... well, anything else.

It's my dad's old work computer and he wants the files that are on its harddrive. It's running System 8. It has a network cord connection, but no FireWire and no USB ports. It is extremely slow—I'm pretty sure it only has something like 65MB of RAM, and it's constantly showing me the little "watch" symbol. At one point yesterday, it was running at a reasonable speed, so I'm hoping I can get that back.

I turned on AppleTalk and made sure that it's communicating via ethernet cord. I turned on file-sharing. Then I plugged it into the back of my G5 with an Ethernet cable, and it seemed like it was going to work—I could see my G5's name in the Chooser.

I clicked the button to connect to that "server", and it asked for my password. I typed that in and pressed return. Then it said something like "the connection was interrupted unexpectedly".

All the rest of the hookups in the back are the old-timey circular kind, and the only thing I have that will plug into those is its keyboard and its mouse.

I have been unable to load anything higher than System 8 onto it, because it thinks it needs to initialize any CDs I put into it. I don't have a floppy drive or any floppy disks. I have also been unable to connect the computer to the internet through the network cable feeding off my Airport connection on my G5 or my iBook like I can on my OS9 computer.

I plugged it into my working (and good) OS9 computer, made everything match, turned on AppleTalk on both (via Ethernet) and neither computer appears on either computer's Chooser. I'm out of ideas. Any help? Thank you!

By: Deathalicious

Deathalicious — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:38:12 -0800

You could try a zip disk. Maybe you have some friends that have some old ones. Of course, you'd need one SCSI for the Powermac and one USB for the G5.

You might also be able to get a USB adaptor, although that's not exactly a cheap or fast solution.

By: Sticherbeast

Sticherbeast — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:39:09 -0800

Could you hook it up to the Internet and email the files away?

Could you grab a SCSI-to-USB adapter and hook it up to a thumb drive?

By: interrobang

interrobang — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:41:21 -0800

Is there a way to force the computer to be online through the Ethernet cable? I know when I tried to do this with my OS9 computer, I couldn't get it online because it was convinced that it needed a phone number to dial. Maybe I could just plug it into the modem?

I might be able to find a zip drive, but the disks would be a lot harder to find.

By: adamrice

adamrice — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:49:26 -0800

You say you turned on file sharing on the 7300, and then mounted your G5 there.

Did you try mounting the 7300 on your G5? If Appletalk and file-sharing are turned on on the 7300, you might be able to get at it that way.

Also, it's been a long time since I messed with OS <X, but perhaps you need to do something to specifically enable Appletalk over Ethernet (as opposed to Localtalk).

If none of that works, you can start messing with the hardware: maybe get a PCI USB card and plug a thumb drive into that, or maybe just pull the hard drive out (I think it's an IDE drive) and hook it up to some kind of adapter.

By: interrobang

interrobang — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:51:41 -0800

Oh, and it will boot from a G3 OS8 restore CD that I have (and runs at a decent speed when you do it), but I can't figure out how to get it to network from there.

By: chairface

chairface — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:52:05 -0800

Given the age of the machine it's like the Ethernet port might need to be plugged into a switch, not a host computer. It also might not grasp 100M. Try plugging both machines into a 10/100 Ethernet switch.

By: interrobang

interrobang — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:52:36 -0800

adamrice, I have been unable to get its hard drive to mount on my G5's desktop, and I can't figure out why. I have file-sharing turned on on this end.

By: interrobang

interrobang — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:53:54 -0800

Try plugging both machines into a 10/100 Ethernet switch.

I don't think I have one of those.

By: Gungho

Gungho — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 17:54:37 -0800

It is pretty easy to remove the drive and pop it into an enclosure. Beg borrow or steal a 2.5" enclosure.

By: the painkiller

the painkiller — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:00:07 -0800

sure, you can get this computer online without using a modem. iirc, you open up the TCP/IP control panel and select "Ethernet" - you also use this control panel to set the IP connection to use DHCP. it's been a while since i used system 8, though...

i think you're on the right track trying to network these machines together to get the files off. you may need a crossover cable to get the ethernet connection to work if you're trying to connect the G5 and Power Mac directly. you might also want to try turning on file sharing on the G5 instead of the Power Mac and see if that works. if none of the file sharing stuff works but you're successful getting the Power Mac to use TCP/IP over Ethernet, you might also want to consider using FTP to transfer the files off, assuming you can still find an FTP client for OS 8 out there somewhere - Fetch is still available for OS 8.

By: D.C.

D.C. — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:09:19 -0800

I remember some wonkyness with file sharing between the old Mac OS and OS X. I think mounting an OS X-served volume under OS 9 failed as it did for you, but the other end worked. Try setting up file sharing in OS 8 and then mount that volume on the G5.

By: interrobang

interrobang — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:12:43 -0800

Try setting up file sharing in OS 8 and then mount that volume on the G5.

See, I'd prefer to do this, but I can't figure out how. I have everything it seems like I should turned on on the G5, but it's not appearing in the network.

By: interrobang

interrobang — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:20:59 -0800

you might also want to consider using FTP to transfer the files off, assuming you can still find an FTP client for OS 8 out there somewhere - Fetch is still available for OS 8.

I don't currently have any way to put files or programs onto the 7300, that's the problem.

By: The Deej

The Deej — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:23:28 -0800

Sounds like you have plenty of networking advice here, so I won't add to that.

I think an Ethernet solution should work, but...

... if you need to try something else, and you can track down a serial/scsi-to-usb converter, I'll donate a USB Zip drive and disks to the cause. I think I also have a USB CD burner. They are collecting dust in the closet, and you are welcome to use either one if you just want to pay the postage.

You'll have to figure out what drivers you might need, etc.

E-mail is in profile.

By: spock

spock — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:28:18 -0800

the painkiller is on the right track: Connecting two Macs with a crossover cable. A crossover cable is not a normal ethernet cable but is wired like this. If you know somebody that works in networking they can make you one for next to nothing.

By: Rock Steady

Rock Steady — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:35:34 -0800

I may have an OS8-compatible modem floating around here somewhere from my Performa 6300 (I am taking offers, BTW. Low End Mac calls it one of the "Macs to be avoided at all costs"!). That plus a free 1000 hours AOL CD will get you email, asuming you've got Eudora or something on there. Let me know if you want it (or the Performa -- For A Limited Time Only, 300 lb. 15" CRT included FREE*).

* plus shipping & handling

By: evil holiday magic

evil holiday magic — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:36:43 -0800

Just FYI: I migrated from a beige G3 to a G5, and IIRC, if you're running anything greater than 10.3.x on the G5, you need to be running Mac OS 9.2.2 on the old world Mac. After I upgraded the G3, everything sort of worked, but trying to copy over large folders would stall, and I had to copy smaller folders over one at a time.

By: paradroid

paradroid — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:38:55 -0800

if you saw the G5's name in the chooser, then you don't need a crossover cable.

i bet that old mac uses "legacy ethernet". try to force your G5 to use 10 megabit and half duplex. i googled some instructions.

By: evil holiday magic

evil holiday magic — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:39:54 -0800

Does the machine have SCSI? I have a CD burner lying around somewhere you could have.

By: oaf

oaf — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:41:28 -0800

Given the age of the machine it's like the Ethernet port might need to be plugged into a switch, not a host computer.

This shouldn't be an issue; the G5 should autodetect. You also shouldn't need a crossover cable.

It is pretty easy to remove the drive and pop it into an enclosure. Beg borrow or steal a 2.5" enclosure.

Given that it's not an IDE drive, this could be difficult.

Why can't you connect it to the Internet and download Fetch onto it?

By: oaf

oaf — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:42:46 -0800

Does the machine have SCSI?

Yes.

By: interrobang

interrobang — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:44:03 -0800

Turns out the machine already has Fetch on it. But if I could connect it to the internet with the ethernet cable, I'd just plug it into the modem and access it on my local network.

By: oaf

oaf — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:50:39 -0800

You may need to set up your computers to use static IP addresses for the moment, and then try FTP.

By: The Deej

The Deej — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:56:05 -0800

Hey, interrobang, take everyone up on their free* offers, and you could start your own Old Mac Store.

*plus shipping

By: interrobang

interrobang — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 19:08:10 -0800

Thanks for all the help so far, everyone. I'm confident that we can get this to work somehow.

And thanks for the kind offers to send me old-time Mac stuff*, but I have enough junk around here as it is.

*Plus shipping

By: tomierna

tomierna — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 19:19:31 -0800

Some bits and pieces of why what you're trying isn't working are up there, but there are a couple more.

First, I don't think that newer versions of MacOS X (which would be what's on the G5) understand regular old Appletalk. They only understand AppletalkIP.

The default for Appletalk on OS8 may have been to have AppletalkIP turned off.

You definitely don't need a Crossover cable - the boxes are seeing each other, it's just a question of compatibility of networking protocols between the two.

You'll need to manually assign an IP address to the G5. Pick something like 192.168.2.10, and a subnet mask of 255.255.255.0.

You'll need to assign an IP address to the OS8 box in the TCP/IP control panel. Pick something like 192.168.2.11, and the same subnet as above. You'll need to make sure that the Network control panel has Ethernet selected. When you turn on Appleshare, there should be a box labeled "Enable file sharing clients to connect over TCP/IP". Check it.

Here's the appropriate article from Apple's Knowledgebase.

I've done this recently with a machine of similar age and OS - an 8500/180.

The reverse is also very possible (as noted in other comments above) you can share out the G5 and pick it in the Chooser on the MacOS 8 machine and then copy things over from that box. If you choose to do it that way, you'll need to assign IP addresses for both machines. Then, turn on Personal File Sharing in the G5's Sharing System Preference Pane. You should be able to connect to the G5 using the Chooser on the 7300, but you'll need to type in the G5's IP address unless you turn on the G5's Appletalk in the Network Preference Pane. If you turn Appletalk on on the G5, it should publish it's name so the Chooser will see it on the 7300.

By: Kadin2048

Kadin2048 — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 19:25:04 -0800

Interrobang, since I'm not sure which of the other suggestions you've been given have worked, I'll give you my thoughts assuming that none of them have.

Getting two Macs networked directly without a hub or a switch in between them can be a PITA. I would seriously consider buying a 10/100 hub or switch, if I were you. It would only cost a few bucks and would avoid a lot of issues. (I remember trying to network an iMac and a Performa to each other with a crossover cable, once upon a time, and it was very hard to get working. You had to enable networking on both of them at the same time for it to work.) Alternately, if you have an internet router with an integrated 4 or 5-port switch, plug them both in there. (This has the added bonus of letting you verify the old Mac's connection by pulling up a web page.)

But anyway, you're going to first want to set the TCP/IP networking on the OS9 Mac to "Ethernet" (instead of Modem or whatever it's set up to use). You probably also want to set it to have a static IP address. It doesn't really matter what it is, as long as it's different than what the G5 has.

Then on the G5, you're going to want to set its TCP/IP settings to Manual as well, give it a different IP address, etc. (You could set the G5 up to act as a DHCP server, but it's more complex than you really need for this.)

Then, enable AppleTalk on the older mac, and make sure Sharing is enabled, and make sure you check the "Allow TCP/IP connections" if it's an option. You also want to enable Guest access. (I can't remember what this control panel looked like in OS8 very well, and all the TILs are for OS9 ... but I think it was pretty similar.)

Then, and here's where I think you're falling short right now, you need to go back out into the Finder on the old Mac, click on the hard drive, choose Get Info, and enable sharing for that volume. Check "Share this Volume and its Contents" and change the settings so that Guests have read access. (This was one of the really neat features of the Mac OS, pre OS X; you could share any volume or folder pretty much effortlessly.)

Then, on the G5, you should be able to bring up the "Connect to" dialog box, and type "afp://[ip address of old mac]", press return, and get a list of possible shares to connect to. Don't bother trying to 'browse' for the computer, frankly IMO browsing sucks and is flaky in OS X, particularly with Classic Mac servers.

That should let you mount the old Mac's hard drive and copy files off of it.

Alternately, you could get a SCSI card for your newer Mac (easy if you have a G5 with PCI, harder if you have one with PCI-X or PCI Express) and connect up the old computer's hard drive more directly. But you might as well give the network a shot first.

This TIL might also be helpful: Creating a small Ethernet network

By: interrobang

interrobang — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 19:26:00 -0800

All right, it's online in the other room right now. What now?

By: interrobang

interrobang — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 19:41:14 -0800

Kadin2048, the hard drive on the old computer is currently shared, and it's read/write by everyone. I found out its IP address by going to an online thingy, then on my G5, I tried connecting to it by going to Finder > Go > Connect to server, and typed in the address. What am I doing wrong? It said that it couldn't connect. The computer still doesn't appear in my network list.

By: Gungho

Gungho — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:19:14 -0800

IIRCC, There is an additional Mac OS extension that you need to put the OS8 on Appletalk over IP. It may only have become available in later versions of 8. I think you need Appleshare client 3.8.6
AppleTalk can still be used for discovery, but the actual connection must be over TCP/IP

By: interrobang

interrobang — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:57:43 -0800

Got it online, used a crossover cable and "Fetch". Thank you very much, everyone!

By: Kadin2048

Kadin2048 — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:46:04 -0800

Great! I don't know why I didn't think about just using FTP...defintely a good solution. Just make sure to put extensions onto the file names of any documents before you transfer them over; e.g., ".xls" for Excel, ".cwk" for ClarisWorks, etc. ... FTP won't preserve the specific metadata that lets Macs determine file types in the absence of filename extensions.

For the record / others who might come later, I think that Gungho is right; stock OS 8 may not include the capability of doing AppleShare over IP (it wants to do AppleShare over AppleTalk, which was Apple's old/proprietary networking protocol, and is now deprecated and seldom used -- in fact OS X machines won't deal with it at all).

You can download AppleShare Client 3.8.6 (OS 8.1 to 9.0.4) here.

By: interrobang

interrobang — Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:39:22 -0800

...aaand the comic.