Community college to med school?

July 18, 2007 12:23 AM

Guy has dream to be a doctor. Will most likely attend community college or similar. Screwed? Y/N?

Brother wants to become a doctor. He's highly intelligent but can't afford the tuition of Stanford and was not accepted to UCLA or UC Berkeley because of out of state residency (we foolhardily assume).

He will most likely go to a community college or a state-run university that's closer to home, cheaper and embraced him with open arms (like UC Merced or SFSU).

He will probably end up transferring to UCLA or UC Berkeley or similar after two years. Does he stand a chance at gaining entrance to med school? Is there another school he should consider transferring to?

posted by thehmmhmm to education (29 answers total)

If he hasn't already, definitely look here for an answer to this question (and the many, many others he likely has).
posted by splendid animal at 12:51 AM on July 18, 2007

Fellow I know's mother went to CC, got a scholarship to a four year college, went to med school after that (and after majoring in English because her advisor told her a divorced women with little kids should aim for a job teaching elementary school, not an MD), and now has her own successful practice. Your (brother's) mileage may vary; she got into med school some years ago (albeit when entrance requirements were harder and doctors stood to earn more), and this woman is quite bright (3 SD or more, I suspect), did well on her MCATs, and is something of a hardass.
posted by orthogonality at 1:04 AM on July 18, 2007

(Note she went to CC because that's all she could afford before she got the scholarship; had she had the money, her SATs and GPA would have gotten her into a good four-year.)
posted by orthogonality at 1:06 AM on July 18, 2007

I don't know too many docs who went to community college. Can't think of one offhand, in fact.

I know several folks, in fact, who went to Harvard and got rejected from all 20 med schools they applied to; one graduated with high honors in chemistry. (Boggles me to think of this guy, with his 3.5 GPA and his lifelong dream to become a doc. He went on to get a Ph.D. in chemistry instead and now works for a big pharma firm.)

It's very hard to get into med school from, for example, UC Berkeley. Although many students go to med school from UCB every year, if every UCB freshman who declared him or herself pre-med were to go on to med school, they would fill every med school spot nationwide and there would be students left over. In the context of this information, getting rejected from UCB and UCLA is not a very good sign, especially since they have nearly automatic admission for people who got good grades in high school.

Med school is not extremely difficult - it is not on the same intellectual level as theoretical astrophysics, say - but there is more to it than just getting in and punching a time clock. Someone who struggled to get A's in high school is not going to be able to deal with mastering the enormous amount of technical information that being a doc does require.

What I do know is that admissions committes prize diversity. Most committees that I've been on or dealt with state that they like to see someone who took full advantage of the opportunities that were available to them. In the context of community college this would mean a perfect GPA for two years - all As, no A-minuses - and a transfer into a more prestigious college where a higher level of work (research, maybe) was done. Tall order, but maybe he's the guy to do it.

Check out number 4 on this list for an eye toward the competition.
posted by ikkyu2 at 1:14 AM on July 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Not screwed at all. That's not even a mark against him. However, there's a lot that needs to happen first:

Getting into medical school is a numbers game, not a name-dropping game.

GPA and MCAT scores are 85% of the way there. The remaining 15% is showing dedication through volunteering and one or two extracurriculars (with leadership responsibilities to show for it) to round yourself out.

Your brother needs to do excellent academic work in jr. college and then do the same when he transfers to a top tier (i.e. top 100 - yes top HUNDRED) university. You don't need to be from a top 10 school to get into med school. The quantity of the U.S.'s exceptional universities is more than a layperson may realize, but not an admissions officer.

If he does the above he will most likely get an interview at a couple med schools. At that point, its his opportunity to lose if he fails to impress on the interview. If he doesn't score an interview during his senior year - no biggie. He can do something interesting (non-profit work, peace corp, etc.) for a year and reapply. Given that, he'd be a shoe-in.
posted by dendrite at 1:54 AM on July 18, 2007

No problem at the smaller state university, just get really good grades.
posted by caddis at 3:14 AM on July 18, 2007

Your brother got into Stanford but not UCLA? Weird. (But not impossible.)

Personally, I think there is a world of difference between community college and a second-tier state university. Getting a 4.0 at the latter would be much more impressive than the former for transferring to a top university. And why transfer after two years? He could try after one. Apply to more universities next time to reduce the likelihood of getting cut due to chance.
posted by grouse at 3:20 AM on July 18, 2007

I worked for a dentist who went to community college first. In fact, he took some time off after high school to screw around and then dedicated himself to becoming a dentist. For the money.
posted by bilabial at 4:29 AM on July 18, 2007

I worked as an EMT for a number of years and a fair number of my coworkers had aspirations to further their careers in healthcare. Most were working on undergrads at local colleges and universities at the time.

Fast forward four years; I spent the last few months dealing with some serious medical issues in the family. At every stop from the ER to the ICU, I was running into former partners who are now RN's, respiratory therapists and MD's. A few are still in school on the MD side, continuing to catch a great deal in education from UMass Med. So yes, your brother is going to be fine as long as he has a plan and sticks to it.
posted by paxton at 5:18 AM on July 18, 2007

As others have stated, as long as he gets good grades (3.8 or higher) and excellent scores on the MCAT, it doesn't matter so much where he goes to school. It's still a crapshoot, though.
posted by emd3737 at 5:40 AM on July 18, 2007

I have a friend who went to a california CC, transfered to Berkeley, and is now in med school in another English speaking country (because of family, not because she couldn't get accepted in the US).

Something to keep in mind is that some California CCs have very good reputations and established transfer programs. It may be easier to transfer from a california CC to Berkeley or UCLA than to transfer there from a california state U.
posted by footnote at 5:53 AM on July 18, 2007

No, he's totally not screwed. My brother-in-law did his undergrad at a small, mediocre Midwestern college; now he's a resident at a prestigious hospital.

I wouldn't read too much into the UC Berkeley/UCLA rejections either; the 2007 UCB admissions statistics are comparable to those at many of the Ivies.
posted by myeviltwin at 5:56 AM on July 18, 2007

There are a variety of paths to becoming a physician and where you go to college is only one component. What state you reside in can make a big difference as state med schools give preferences to state residents. Also, different med schools have different priorities in terms of emphasizing grades/MCAT scores/extracurricular activities and so on. Many people who have difficulty getting into traditional medical schools go to offshore medical schools and transfer to the US for the last 2 years of school (and end up with a US degree, which is important) or get a US residency program (more difficult in terms of licensure and credentialling but still doable); offshore schools are not the best option, but there are many successful physicians who have done it that way. DO schools are another overlooked option for many aspiring physicians. There are also many people who go to work in another career (either medical or not) after college and after a few years return to medical school. The key is staying involved with people in the medical field who can write recommendations and give good career advice; if your brother does that and is persistent, he has a good chance of getting into med school no matter what college he goes to. Here is a list of the current surgery residents at our medical school; I think you will see a pretty diverse group in terms of undergraduate education. Many other schools/departments have similar information available about the educational backgrounds of their residents that should help ease your brother's mind.
posted by TedW at 6:07 AM on July 18, 2007

It's definitely doable. My friend and I are both in med school right now and we did a lot in comm. college. She did her whole first year there. But will probably want to take the basics there, leaving the science and "harder" classes for the major university. (i.e. i did my general chems in a comm. college and got blown away with the major university organic chem classes.) But it's definitely possible!
posted by uncballzer at 6:13 AM on July 18, 2007

If he's not a California resident, at least for tuition purposes, why is he so gung-go to go to school in California? Why not do undergraduate work in whatever state he is a resident of for tuition purposes? Or apply to a bunch of private schools and see who gives him the best financial aid package?

What financial aid package did Stanford offer? I'd be astonished if Stanford didn't work out *cheaper* than UC out of state, unless you have dickhead parents who make pots of money but won't pay for college. The tuition and fees listed at Stanford is a bullshit price for fools and very rich people.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:36 AM on July 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Having worked in higher ed for a long time, I'd add this: about half of all freshmen enter wanting to be doctors or lawyers. It's all they know. In the end, most of them find their passions, and their not med or law. That's a good thing, because not everyone is cut out for the doc or law life. Not to sound touchy-feelie or anything, but the important thing to do in college is to find out what you like to do and begin doing it. It might be medicine, but it might just be shoe design. It's a big, big world, and there's lots to do.

As for schools, that's just window dressing. Serious people are recognized as serious no matter where they go to school.
posted by MarshallPoe at 7:09 AM on July 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Ah, here's some more info on the best California CCs. Diablo Valley Community College has an excellent transfer rate. So do Cabrillo College and De Anza College.
posted by footnote at 7:18 AM on July 18, 2007

I've worked at a top research university for several years, including in admissions, as well as working for Kaplan. I was also a transfer student (though from a small college). Despite having a reasonably large med school, we don't even have a specific pre-med major.

The important things for med school are grades, classes and outside activity. It shouldn't matter where he goes to school as long as he has the classes he needs (including both subject matter and rigor) and does well in them. Going to a community college or second-tier university can allow him to get the attention or class sizes that can help him get top grades and great preparation for higher-level study at a better university.

Most importantly, success at a smaller college or CC will allow him to develop the focus and study habits that will lead to success in later study. The transition alone can be a big deal for lots of freshmen.

Finally, don't overlook the possibility of taking a little time off -- a "gap year" -- to gain a little more maturity, a little more responsibility, some money for school and possibly even residency.

Again, the important thing is for him to demonstrate that he is responsible, successful and a hard worker. Any path that will show him off to his best advantage is a good path to take.

Good luck!
posted by Madamina at 7:37 AM on July 18, 2007

Take gen-eds in CC and the important pre-med classes the two years in university. Some med schools won't accept the pre-med classes if they are from CC.
posted by melissam at 8:58 AM on July 18, 2007

City Colleges in California have automatic transfers to UC. City colleges to Cal State isn't as easy.

As someone who teaches at a UC, I will remark that some transfers have trouble making the adjustment to a UC. They may have been at the top of their game at city college but come into a major where there have already been "weeder" courses and the students have already been acculturated to what the department wants. Also the switch from semester to quarter is tough.

I end up having to fail CC transfers quite often. (There are some exceptions to this rule, but not as often as I'd like.) Their papers aren't as good as the students who have already spent 2 years in the major learning how to (for example) write in APA social science style or understand that we (and many UCs) make the B-/C+ line the median.

But if your brother goes into his CC knowing that he is planning to transfer and really pushing through his classes, he should be alright.

Another plus is (once he is a resident), CC is CHEAP here! ~$20/credit!!

Additionally, I'm not sure if everyone understands how California college admissions works. Basically, the UCs distribute the top students, then the Cal State system. It isn't surprising to me that your brother had trouble getting into UCLA and Berkeley.
posted by k8t at 8:59 AM on July 18, 2007

SFSU is a great school, and I think there would be people there who could help him plan out his path to med school.

One thing to think about is that a lot of folks (I can think of 4 that I've known in the past year) get their undergrad degree, but don't have perfect MCAT scores the first time, so they get a job for a while during the time they're working on better scores. A great job during that time would be in research, either in a lab or in clinical research (Stanford has tons of those jobs, and we love fresh meat). That research job will give him a good idea of what working in medicine is like, and will keep him learning and on his toes for med school.
posted by sarahnade at 9:14 AM on July 18, 2007

Transferring to the UC system may be easier from a CA community college. Many students actually do this - including myself, because it's just so affordable. A good CC should be able to provide a comparable education. I flunked my CC organic chemistry, retook it at a UC - and found it to be a dozer compared to my CC.

Also look into other UC's: UCSD, UC Irvine, etc. They're probably a notch lower on the prestige level ... but they're still very competitive.

The danger of the community college system is in the remedial system, and the other students. Test into remedial math, and it may take an entire year to get out of it and into Calculus I. Also, lots of CC students work and don't see life as no college degree = end of life. Which is an excellent mindset, but can cause a student to go astray.
posted by Xere at 9:36 AM on July 18, 2007

I personally have met a woman who did her undergraduate degree at Kennesaw State (near the small town where I grew up in Georgia) and is now a doctor here in NC. I believe she went to Duke Med School.
posted by amtho at 9:39 AM on July 18, 2007

A girlfriend of a friend of mine went to CC, then UCLA and then Naval med school.

Going from 30 people to a class to 400 people to a class was the biggest shock, but otherwise by the end of her undergrad no would have known she only spent 2 years at UCLA.

All the real hardcore classes happen the third and forth year so I wouldn't worry about doing two years at CC.
posted by sideshow at 1:59 PM on July 18, 2007

don't forget medical schools in Costa Rica, Grenada and the likes which will take in just about anyone and their tuition
posted by kanemano at 3:00 PM on July 18, 2007

Whoa. I just reread the question and it looks like your bro 1) wants to go to med school, 2) got accepted by Stanford (I missed that on the first run through) and 3) is considering going to UC Merced or SFSU instead because of money?

There's something wrong with this story and it may be your bro's ignorance about how doctors finance their education. Doctors make enough money to pay off student loans, and principal payments can be deferred all through med school and residency. If your bro wants to do research after that, there exist Federal programs that will pay off his student loans on his behalf (and pay the tax liability incurred by these payments too.)

The average doc graduates with $225,000 or so in educational debt. It's not unheard of to accrue $400K of debt. This is not like racking up $400K in credit card debt on luxury items; one of the things you're buying is earning potential. My friends in neurosurgery make enough to pay off all $400K of that debt in one year and still have enough money for the house and boat payment and all other expenses.

If your bro really wants to be a doctor - if that's goal #1 - he'd be a fool to turn down Stanford in favor of UC Merced. Stanford is where you go to college in California if you want to be a doctor. Period. Your Stanford diploma opens doors that you can't otherwise open.

Also, "I couldn't afford the tuition" is very rapidly going to stop being a valid excuse for folks like your bro. Harvard, Stanford and other top tier universities are beginning to offer aid packages that allow nearly anyone to attend, if they're motivated enough to succeed in life that education debt doesn't frighten them. Four years from now a med school admissions interviewer is going to hear "I couldn't afford the tuition" and parse it as "I wasn't motivated enough to take the opportunity I was offered." That is the kiss of death.
posted by ikkyu2 at 3:06 PM on July 18, 2007 [4 favorites]

I was accepted to Stanford, but did not believe that the Stanford name was worth that much money (and hence, did not go). I was buying an education, not a name.

Of course, I may have been wrong.

As for not being "motivated enough to take the opportunity I was offered", that may have been true. I suspect, though, that "not understanding/believing the magnitude of the opportunity I was offered" would be closer to the truth.

While I may think this is not that big a deal, it is very likely that the med school admissions interviewer, as described above, will think otherwise.

Interesting to think about how different one's life would be, given a different choice of college...
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 10:41 PM on July 18, 2007

ikkyu2 is correct. An education from an elite university, Stanford or say a top Ivy School, opens many doors, especially if you plan on going into a profession such as medicine or law, or into something like finance. I wouldn't say these doors would otherwise be closed, but it really helps.
posted by caddis at 8:37 AM on July 19, 2007

Sciences at community colleges aren't usually as breathtakingly easy as other community college classes. They're usually just as rigorous as the same course at a four-year college, if not harder.

If your brother decides to go the community college route, it may be a good idea to look into a community college close to a major UC. At my CC (5 minutes away from a UC), about half the teachers split their time between both schools.

As a matter of fact, one of my chem professors was head of the chem department at the UC - and he taught a small class of us CC students, ran our labs (cc's almost never have TA's), etc. Obviously, a recommendation letter from him would've looked very attractive to an admissions committee.

Some (not all!) professional schools tend to frown on community college coursework. But those two community college years can be made up by proving one's worth at junior and senior courses at a four-year college.

So, for community college: Get good grades, preferably A's. If popular opinion of community college coursework is "easy", then an A is a must. Join the honors program for increasing transfer chances to UCLA or Berkeley. (Honors programs at some cc's have guaranteed transfer for these schools.) The honors program is usually dead at most cc's, and only requires a good incoming (and maintained) GPA, and taking honors versions of some classes. So no worries about weekends and evenings being taken up by the honor society.
posted by Xere at 12:34 AM on July 20, 2007