Is it me? Is it NYC? Help Mr. Freeze win friends and influence people!!!

July 9, 2007 11:57 PM

I'm smart, attractive, have interests and passions, am often told I'm easy/comfortable to be around, am a good listener (heh, irony), etc. So why am I alone? Why can't I talk to people at will (beyond the rare times of random fluke I've yet to unravel the formula to) and leave a "not boring" impression on them?

I've read Dale Carnegie (meh). On top of that, my job is pretty unpredictable schedule-wise (though getting better), so the typical advice of join a group catering to your interests or some such is a little harder to fit in when I'm not sure if I'm going to be done at 4pm or 2am. I've also tried to replicate how I am online in person, or tried to make mental notes of how my more gregarious friends interact with people, but so far I just end up back to being Mr. Freeze. I don't have a fear of walking up to anyone and starting a conversation with them, it just seems to be the keeping it going part I'm unable to do. I've read suggestions of taking public speaking classes, but I'm not so sure it's a fear of talking to people (maybe it is?). Is it NYC? Is it me? The latter amplified by the former? Are there classes for conversation? Should I look into therapy to unravel 25 years of . . whatever therapy unravels. Should I just find an apartment that will allow me to have cats and take up knitting at the old age of 33 and unlist my phone number and wait for the day some long lost friend comes calling to find me long dead and half-devoured by my starving cats?

I'll try to keep this relatively short, but I'm not sure what's relevant and what's not anymore frankly, so apologies in advance if it comes off a bit rambling and disjointed . . .

I've always been known as the "quiet" one, the "man of few words". While it's not something I've ever particularly took pride in, I grew comfortable in the sense that it just "was" and always seemed to find a few good/true friends that didn't mind or even liked that about me. I think some of that stems from the fact that when I was a teenager I had a tooth grow in oddly, cutting the root of another in front which was rectified with bridgework. Later that bridge failed and I spent a year with a flipper and ultimately got implants. It's undetectable unless I tell someone, and even then they wouldn't know unless I pointed to where specifically, but I think it's always left me a bit self-conscious about opening my mouth for too long for fear something will come loose and fall out. And while I'm no Brad Pitt (or chose your poison) I guess my looks fall along the "pretty boy" lines and I've never had a big issue finding long term girlfriends over the course of the gpre-NYC years, nor simply getting laid. In a business related situation I can walk into most clients offices, new or old, and while I'm not overly gregarious it often turns out the they love me and ask for me by name from that point on. Of course, being a consultant I'm saved from having to do much more than the quip and finger-gun "how's the wife and kids Bob?!?!" (note: I don't really do this, lol, but you get the idea), do what I came to do and go.

The problem is in social situations, whether that's making friends or dating or . . . I just freeze up. My mind goes blank, and while people tend to err on the side of nice I think, I get the impression that overall I come off a bit boring, or even "snobby" (this is laughable as I'm far from it, but I've been told as much before). I can understand that, but I'm loathe what to do about it. I "know" I should just jump in to the conversation at hand, but as I sit there drowning my mind tries to grab whatever is floating by in the stream of consciousness and typically it's wildly inappropriate, irrelevant, or incoherent in general so there I sit. Silent. The times I do come up with something, I usually seem to get ignored or get a blank nod, maybe a chuckle, and the conversation continues on around and without me. Over the years I've managed to play that to my advantage to some extent in the "mysterious" or "deep" sense. I mean, I'm not a mentally deficient (as far as I know, heh) and given the chance to get to know me, people do tend to like or love me (you can't win 'em all of course).

Further confounding is that online, whether IM or email, I tend to be pretty chatty unless distracted, and conversation flows pretty easily. That's a plus in the sense that my job entails being on the computer a lot so I can direct "conversation" to that medium, but that only lasts so long as a lot of people still prefer face-to-face or at least the phone (and of course I understand and empathize with this). I've given online dating a fair shake, and have done "ok", but sometimes I feel like girls expect the cute, witty, funny guy they talked to online and end up with this wet rag (still cute!) that says very little. Futher maddening is that guy IS me, but in person . . .again, I just freeze. The times I do find a girl that doesn't seem to mind, I find a reason to not be interested, usually along the lines of Groucho Marx's "not joining any club that would have me as a member". Also, beyond business use (talking to clients, co-workers, etc) I have a borderline phobia of the phone and send pretty much everyone to voicemail if I suspect they're just calling to "chat". I know the basics: "how's it going?", "what's new?" "oh yeah?" and am fairly good at prodding someone on with their own stories, which we all know is what people want to tell anyway, but I dread random "chats" as I know it will soon turn into that point just past the "intro stuff" and some weird silence will ensue and whoever was calling will get off the phone with "boooooring" or "too cool to talk to me" in the back of their head and a mental note to call less often from then on. Then I start thinking maybe I should check into therapy and make a half-assed search of CBT (cognitive therapy) and resolve to check into finding a good therapist later . . . sometime.

Sometimes I console myself that it's just NYC and people are colder, more closed off, and have less attention span or a reason to have one. If you can't captivate them in an instant, they're not willing to explore any deeper - there's 8+ million other options anyway. Other times I think I'm just kidding myself and wonder why anyone would want to get to know me anyway and travel down some never-ending self analysis rabbit hole ending up at some nonsense like . . . it's probably because I've bothered to put up any art on my walls and they somehow instinctively know this, though they've never been to my apartment, and it shines through that I'm a total bore. Then I vacillate back to it being NYC and I can't find a long term (more than a month or so, tops) relationship because, again, girls here don't want to bother when there's just so many damn options.

Now, on the one hand, I've always been a loner and have grown somewhat comfortable in that role. I like my "me" time to geek off on the computer or make music or do whatever whimsy strikes, but it would also be nice to share that whimsy with someone sometimes. I have one friend that I spend most of my time with when not working, but while he's a great guy in a lot of ways, he has some social phobias that aren't really yangin my yin. I don't mind going to a random club, or movie, or . . just something random in general, I don't need a grand plan to have a good time. I actually enjoy being around people and just watching them do what people do. Theaters freak him out for some reason unarticulated to me though, and going to clubs the same, and we usually end up at some local (boring) bar in his neighborhood and I watch him play pool with his bar friends, again. He's not had a girlfriend since I've known him (years), let alone made more than a half-hearted move towards acting on a girl he might be interested in. The irony here is that I'm known to him as dating an endless series of girls, yet I consider him to be the social one. Before NYC, my best friend on the west coast (who I still hang out with when we're in the same city) is very gregarious and has a knack for chatting up just about anyone and making a friend out of it. I would tend to just tag along and be my quiet self and things seemed to be ok, and I would end up making a few friends of my own now and then. Though even then, there were plenty of times I felt kinda off in my own orbit.

I suppose I could keep going, but hopefully you have a general idea of where I'm going with this. I don't have the want or need to be the guy who won't shut up, but . . . my head is done in and dizzy.

Thanks in advance for reading (sorry for the length) and any advice you may have.

posted by teemo to human relations (57 comments total)

Join a club.
posted by Krrrlson at 12:02 AM on July 10, 2007

Re a new job: if your schedule is so erratic that your whole life is determined by it, look for something with a more stable schedule.
posted by mdonley at 12:29 AM on July 10, 2007

Start with an image consultant. As uncomfortable as you think that might be, what you learn about updating your appearance can be a powerful, quick turnaround in a place like NYC. Next, explore options for personal social coaching and critique. If you could pay some people for candid views of how you actually act on dates, perhaps with some role playing opportunities, and maybe even video taping of yourself in typical situations, you might quickly get a handle on things you could do to improve the impression you make, and the results you have in early phases of new relationships. You'd probably learn things about yourself it might take still more years to understand from situations with women who are trying to be polite.

Long term, however, no one can be anyone but themselves, convincingly. Ideally, you'll adopt a plan for formal continuing education, spiritual growth, and personal accomplishment that will give you an interesting life, regardless of your relationship status at any given point in time. Perhaps you've always wanted to learn photography, or how to play the violin. Maybe it's been awhile since you've read any book on the NYT best seller lists. Maybe you don't find museums interesting but would like to, or you recognize that you don't know as much as you'd like to know about art. Interesting people invest some time and money in developing their own minds and skills, so they'll have better things to do than go watch an old friend play pool in a bar. Give yourself 6 months of effort on a new hobby, or renewed effort in new directions with your current interests, as appropriate, and see if that commitment doesn't make you a more confident, interesting person, innately.

There's no luck involved in gettin' more than lucky. Being wingman to a guy who mainly likes to play pool in bars is going to make it tough to even keep cats. You have to put forth some effort in the direction of a life plan, that includes developing a family for yourself, if you want the rewards, responsibilities, sorrows, aggravations and love of family life. If family isn't something you want, you at least need to be a worthy enough person to attract interesting friends, if you want a more interesting life. Whatever it is you want, you have to want it enough, to do things differently than you have been.
posted by paulsc at 12:33 AM on July 10, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Why can't I talk to people at will and leave a "not boring" impression on them?

Good Lord, man, did you even look at what you just did here? I clicked on the [more inside] fully aware that it was going to be a long, drawn out slog, hoping to read it and come up with a helpful solution - and even so, my interest flagged about a third of the way down.

The worst of it, as I see it, is that you framed the problem perfectly in the third sentence of your question. You're boring. You know people find you boring, yet you're clearly not able to overcome your need to prattle on endlessly about yourself. If this is the kind of thing you do when you talk "at will" with the person you've been dating for a month, it's no wonder that it never gets to month #2.

You've got to stop doing this. No one cares. No one will ever care until you cultivate some interests and gin up some conversations that are genuinely interesting.

Being boring, incidentally, creates guilt in the person who's being bored. I feel guilty posting this, because it feels mean. I wouldn't mind half so much being bored to death by you or someone like you, if it didn't make me feel like a bad person. That is another reason to stop being boring as fast as you can.
posted by ikkyu2 at 12:45 AM on July 10, 2007 [21 favorites has favorites]

If the phrasing and structure of your question are any indication of your speech patterns; then you have answered your own question.

Never talk for more than 30 seconds and when the person you're speaking to is talking, listen openly and honestly - don't just get ready for your next barrage of verbosity.
posted by trashcan at 12:51 AM on July 10, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]

Well, I'm the same way. I solved the problem the same way I would solve any programming problem.

The solution: Ask people questions, and when they answer, ask follow up questions. Then even more questions. People talk a lot, learn to listen and people want to talk to you.

For example, ask: What do you do? He says: Electrician. You ask: Is that not a bit dangerous, what with electricity and all? He says, naw, but I know of a guy who got killed once. You say: Oh yeah, what happened? He proceeds to tell you a long story. You say: Oh yes, I once heard of this guy who tried chewing an electric cord over in Uganda. He says, oh yea, you been in Uganda. You say: yes, you ever travelled to Africa? etc.

If you have a short funny story prepared, it's easy to guide conversation where you want it to go.

Oh, and one more thing. Most people have enough friends, and don't really want to be friends with you unless you sort of bring value to their lives. So it's not enough to be nice.
posted by markesh at 2:12 AM on July 10, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

I really wanted to finish reading your predicament. You do sound like a cool person, who seems to be aware of the irony of being cool but yet alone. But take a look at the six paragraphs you've written on the subject--don't read it, just look how much you wrote.

I'm gonna do an armchair analysis for you at no charge--excessive navelgazing. Quit thinking about yourself so much and get out there and live life. What are your interests? Not to get all New Agey on you, but if you are doing what your heart tells you to--whether that be work or play or whatever--then the universe will open up a way for friendships to happen. (That said, NYC is a notoriously difficult place to find friends, so you're not alone on that one.)

Get yourself out of your head. Think about ideas, other people, events, things. Not you.
posted by zardoz at 2:17 AM on July 10, 2007

I agree with Zardoz. Plus, you're overthinking things to a degree which comes across as somewhat creepy, if you ask me.
posted by doctorpiorno at 2:44 AM on July 10, 2007

I too freaked at the length of the more inside, but when I read a few answers I thought I would read it to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I've got to agree, that the post was long, rambling and kind of pointless. I even checked your profile to see if this was a troll.
Markesh gives some good advice for winning friends and influencing people, even if you found Carnegie meh.
Maybe make yourself a challenge to try listening and focusing on who you are talking to, directing the conversation a bit, being witty etc. for the next month and see how it goes?
posted by bystander at 3:21 AM on July 10, 2007

Therapy couldn't hurt.
posted by sneakin at 4:29 AM on July 10, 2007

I agree on the rambling thing...if you do this while having a conversation, people's eyes will glaze over and they will lose interest. One key in conversation is get to the point. People have short attention spans, especially when they're the ones talking.

A suggestion I do have is to consciously make the goal of your conversations to learn about the other person. People are happiest when they're talking about themselves. Take a genuine interest in what they are talking about and ask questions.

One of the biggest mistakes in conversation (and I'm guilty of it, too) is to always shift the topic back to yourself...your feelings, your opinion, your experiences. Instead of saying "OMG yeah that happened to me, too!" say "That must have been really exciting!"

When you keep people talking by asking non-creepy questions, they will think you are brilliant and they will really enjoy talking to you.
posted by tastybrains at 4:39 AM on July 10, 2007

Sounds like social anxiety to me. I suffer from the same thing. My solution? I went to the same place over and over again until I was really comfortable. Some days I talked to people, some days I didn't. One day, I was there sick off my ass with strep throat -- to the point where my ex had actually driven there because I couldn't -- and I met a WONDERFUL woman who I've been dating for two months now, and who matches me in every way, including a lot of social anxiety.
posted by SpecialK at 5:49 AM on July 10, 2007

The advice to focus on the other person when having conversations is really great for when you're out with one person, or if you're at a party where people are circulating.

One of the social situations you describe above, though, appears to be when there's a group conversation going on, which happens at dinner parties or when a smallish group goes out. Everybody is joining in talking about some common topic - the local sports team, the weather, a TV show or movie, etc. Obviously it's really hard to be a part of such conversations if you haven't seen the TV show people are ragging on, or didn't know the local pro sports team just made it to the playoffs. Saying one doesn't watch TV or doesn't pay attention to sports in such contexts can come off as snobbish. Trying to come up with something clever to say doesn't quite work, either it's likely to be something awkward that people will ignore. The only thing you have to do in such situations is show that you are engaged in that group activity, and thus are part of the group. This can be through audible interjections of statements along the line of "No, really?" "I want to hear more!" "I have to agree with Bob here." But, to have this work, you have to have been listening to the conversation, and not worrying about what clever or witty thing you're going to say.

It also really helps if there are certain topics you do know something about, because you have seen that movie, or went to that concert in Central Park, or read the newspaper regularly. What are you doing in that respect?
posted by needled at 5:50 AM on July 10, 2007

I was going to come in and say something like, "Perhaps your having a hard time meeting people because the circles you run in are filled with narcissistic types who only view others as a means to an end."

But having read about a 1/4 down I gave up and decided that perhaps the problem is with you.

Are you genuinely interested in people around you or are you just looking to make yourself "feel more complete"?

If its the later then you seriously need to reevaluate your motivations. People perhaps aren't interested in you because they sense that you're completely self absorbed. The fact that you phrased the title of this question in the narcissistic cliche of "win friends and influence people" (essentially viewing friends as a commodity for which you compete, and fellow human beings as objects of subjectification) doesn't inspire hope.

I hope that this isn't the case, maybe it is social anxiety, or your work life sucks, or maybe it is NYC... but given that your options for the later are either changing jobs or changing cities its maybe easier to work on your own personally first.
posted by wfrgms at 6:16 AM on July 10, 2007

Wow. I have to laugh at myself, if not the responses so far. I mean, I agree with what's been said to some extent and it stings a little . . ., but I apparently pretty much missed the mark altogether or at least over shot it and a result gave people the wrong impression.

I also agree, this was way too long and tried to toss that disclaimer in there at the top. Ultimately though, no, I don't EVER talk this much (I suspect that's some of the issue). Economy of words equals "F -". I was trying to "kitchen sink" it in the hope that I could get to the actual heart of the matter. Also, the title was meant to be a bit of a play on the derision lobbed at Dale Carnegie's infamous book more than anything.

So, in short, here's an example, that will hopefully shed a better light:

I was a at a friend of a friend's birthday a few weeks ago at a bar. I knew a few of the people, but not many of them. At one point his wife asked me "how's the apartment?" which seemed a bit of a random/odd question, but I said "good". Queue lull. Then her husband piped in as people looked on "he's a man of few words", and people kind of chuckled and moved on. I mean, what do you say to a random question about your apartment? Sure, you can extend that a million ways, but in the moment . . ."good" was all I could come up with. It's situations like that ad infinitum that I find myself in and really is more the crux of the issue.
posted by teemo at 6:38 AM on July 10, 2007

While your post IS quite long, I think folks are coming down a bit too hard on you for it... it's your life and obviously you've given a lot of thought to your predicament and obviously you like writing and feel comfortable in this medium.

And weirdly, I was going to give you the exact opposite advice of what others have been suggesting. You write that you're a good listener and are known as the quiet one... this sounds like droning on in a boring way about your boring thoughts is likely not the culprit.

I had been going to suggest talking MORE about yourself, or at least about what makes you tick, what your interests are. It seems like you've got the ask-people-about-themselves bit down... but you also need to be able to give something OF yourself or else no one will be interested in you. I'm not suggesting talking about yourself in an emo navel-gazing self-focused way, but in a way that says "Hey, here's the stuff that I'm into, and I think it's really great, and you might think so too."

ikkyu2 is right about cultivating interesting things to talk about. I admit to doing this myself and that a part of the reason I keep up on current events, politics, books, movies, etc, is so that I'll have some cocktail party convo. Of course, it's only PART of the reason (I am genuinely interested in these things)... but this motivation helps keep me from turning lazy.
posted by tentacle at 6:49 AM on July 10, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Also, I'm clear on the "have a good story" and ask people leading questions about themselves and all of those general conversation rules, but again, in the moment I just freeze up and am left with the odd silence (which is not always a bad thing) struggling for something . . . ANYTHING . . . to say. What seems like and is common sense/obvious just fails me when I need it most. I look around for objects or goings on in the current environment to comment on, but nothing seems right or just seems stupid to verbalize.
posted by teemo at 6:52 AM on July 10, 2007

Okay, you're not playing the conversational game. People will lob what appear to be random/odd questions to see what ends up getting "returned." In your example, what you did was the conversational equivalent of her serving you the ball, and you just stood there, unaware you were supposed to return it. So, end of game.

What could have kept the game going is if you'd followed up "good" with some kind of hook that they can then latch on to continue the conversation:
"Good. How about yours?"
"Good, it's a cool neighborhood."
"Good, except for the loud upstairs neighbor."

And this may sound strange, but try not to overthink questions people you've just met ask you in social situations. The questions are intended to ascertain common ground, get a feel for the territory, and so may sometimes seem random to you.
posted by needled at 7:01 AM on July 10, 2007

Man, some of you guys are mean!

It seems to me that you have trouble thinking quickly in a social situation -- it's not that you don't have things to say, it's that you can't figure out how to say them when you're on the spot. The fact that you can do this online suggests to me that there might be a bit of social anxiety that's freezing you up in the moment.

The good news is, this is a skill like any other, and it can be learned. Have you thought about improv classes? It seems like they'd be a good way to practice getting some words out even if you feel uncomfortable, tense, or awkward.
posted by myeviltwin at 7:05 AM on July 10, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Teemo, the key to this is simply preparation. Have 5 stories ready before you go out, and when there is a lull, ask something you think may lead to you being able to tell the story. Just in the general direction, don't force it.

Another trick is this: Listen to what the person is saying, and pay attention to the things said in the middle of a sentence. Most stories have a context, for example, a City, a Person, a Time, that is not directly related to the point of the story. If the story itself is difficult to follow up on, go with something from the middle of the sentence. Like if a City is mentioned, ask : So how did you City?

This is where it is important to have some stories in your mind. So when you hear "New York" in the middle of a sentence, it does not matter how the sentence ends, you can then add your story which happened in New York as soon as the person finished telling it.

But be very careful with two things:

1. Don't complain. Speaking about how bad things are seems to be the easiest thing to talk about - avoid it. Many people do not like people who complain a lot.

2. Do not always talk about the same thing. Let's say you come from Texas and are living in New York. Don't always find a way of talking about how different things are in Texas compared to New York. Many people do this, particularly when they travel. It's annoying to go out with people who always talk about one particular thing over and over again.

3. Don't smile or laugh much. It comes across like a lack of self confidence, particularly when you are not saying much.

They key to conversation is to pique peoples interest. To do that, you need to have a set of opinions and stories to tell. Gather about 20 of those in a notebook, and you'll find the conversational act a lot easier.
posted by markesh at 7:09 AM on July 10, 2007 [6 favorites has favorites]

You remind me a little bit of my brother, who tends to freeze up in social situations and have trouble picking up conversational cues -- even with me, who he's pretty comfortable with. He's enjoys chatting online, but in person, he gets awkward.

I've found that there's a simple way to get him to talk fluidly and comfortably. The secret? He needs to be doing something with his hands.

It could be a Rubik's cube, a video game, assembling a puzzle, doodling on a pad of paper -- any simple task that he does with his hands. I think it gets him just distracted enough to be able to stop worrying so much about what comes out of his mouth.

I think that this kind of approach may work better for you than a lot of self-examination about how you're presenting yourself, or whether you've been talking for 30 seconds or 45, or trying to self-censor or memorize funny anecdotes. I suspect that what's sinking you is that you're already thinking too much about what you're saying. So, try distracting yourself with some kind of simple task that you do with your hands -- like taking a pen apart and putting it back together, drawing a picture of the person you're talking to --whatever you can think of that won't seem too weird in your social context.
posted by ourobouros at 7:28 AM on July 10, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

It seems it you have difficult saying anything if you cannot say everything. Practice being succinct. Let me try:

Wow. I have to laugh at myself, if not the responses so far. I mean, I agree with what's been said to some extent and it stings a little . . ., but I apparently pretty much missed the mark altogether or at least over shot it and a result gave people the wrong impression.

I also agree, this was way too long and tried to toss that disclaimer in there at the top. Ultimately though, no, I don't EVER talk this much (I suspect that's some of the issue). Economy of words equals "F -". I was trying to "kitchen sink" it in the hope that I could get to the actual heart of the matter. Also, the title was meant to be a bit of a play on the derision lobbed at Dale Carnegie's infamous book more than anything.

So, in short, here's an example, that will hopefully shed a better light:

I was a at a friend of a friend's birthday a few weeks ago at a bar. I knew a few of the people, but not many of them. At one point his wife asked me "how's the apartment?" which seemed a bit of a random/odd question, but I said "good". Queue lull. Then her husband piped in as people looked on "he's a man of few words", and people kind of chuckled and moved on. I mean, what do you say to a random question about your apartment? Sure, you can extend that a million ways, but in the moment . . ."good" was all I could come up with. It's situations like that ad infinitum that I find myself in and really is more the crux of the issue.

Becomes:

It's interesting to see what's been written, perhaps I'm giving the wrong impression. For example, when I was at a bar the other night, an acquaintance started a conversation with "How's the apartment?" I couldn't think of a response other than "Good."

It's OK if 75% of the possible words to speak on a given subject are left unsaid. Stop talking. People want the minimum amount of words necessary to get the point.. voicing every nuance just confuses things, as evidenced here. You have verbal diarrhea.

Practice by thinking about what the ultimate point is that you are trying to communicate, then slowly add details only as necessary to get to that point. How is the apartment? Pick one interesting thing about it and relate that, as said above. You were thrown a random open question in order to easily entertain the asker with *any* anecdote about it.
posted by kcm at 7:30 AM on July 10, 2007

Just thinking further about things you can do with your hands in a social context:

- appoint yourself bartender -- get drinks, mix drinks, etc.
- be the iPod DJ
- learn to play pool

There are probably plenty of other unremarkable things that you can do at a party or bar to distract yourself just enough to stop worrying.

Also, I want to say that I strongly disagree that you're boring, or that you need to learn how to be more interesting. It's true, you do go on a bit in your question, but I think it stems from anxiety -- that we're not going to understand you, that you're not saying it right, that you need to include as much as possible or we won't get it. It sounds like this same anxiety makes you clam up completely in social situations. So, again: don't solve your worrying problem by worrying more. Instead, learn how to distract yourself just enough to stop watching yourself.
posted by ourobouros at 7:50 AM on July 10, 2007

What needled said. "How's the apartment?" isn't really a request for information. It's an invitation to interact. You could answer that dozens of ways. The main thing is to give an answer that allows the interaction to proceed.
posted by Robert Angelo at 7:54 AM on July 10, 2007

I mean, what do you say to a random question about your apartment?

The secret no one is telling you is that conversing is hard for everyone, thus these little questions. He's not asking you about your apartment, he's opening the door for conversation. A better reply would be:

An anecdote:

"Nice. We have a spider problem and I have to keep catching them while my girlfriend screams in the corner. You know what that's like right?"

A sequeue:

"Things are pretty good. Parking is terrible though. How's parking out here?"

A joke

"The downside is that it smells like mold, but the upside is that its really small."

You should see these questions as attempts to get further information and you should usually end them with a question to continue conversation.


If youre like me you might take things too literally or too seriously, thus the response that is little more than "fine." Conversation and socializing is like a game. One guy serves, you hit the ball back, try to find common ground, laugh, etc. Start putting yourself in the "I want to get to know you and I want you to get to know me" frame of mind when getting in a conversation. Be less serious. Be more whimsical. This isnt easy to learn, but its learnable.

Lastly, if you are freezing up during this you should really ask yourself if you are suffering from any type of anxiety. If so you need to learn to relax in these situations first.

length of this post? you guys read 25 pages of mindless relationship questions without ever complaining
posted by damn dirty ape at 7:55 AM on July 10, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Q: How's the apartment?

Your answer: It's getting there. Hey, I haven't had you guys over yet - how about you come over this weekend and I make you some dinner?
posted by iconomy at 8:14 AM on July 10, 2007

Hmmm.... do you unilaterally freeze in every RL social situation? Or is it just at parties?

I find I'm a bit shy in social situations with people I don't know. But I do alright one on one. So what works for me is to try to re-create the situation I do well in in the one I have more difficulty with.

At a party, I'll find the one person I know and have a conversation with that person. Lo and behold! While I'm talking with that one someone else will join us, I get introduced and now I'm talking to two people in a situation I feel comfortable.

So under what circumstances do YOU feel comfortable? I assume you don't freeze up with family, all your ex-girlfriends, the guy friend you describe above... duplicate those circumstances in situations where you are uncomfortable.

Another strategy is that of a friend of mine. He is a very shy guy and doesnt like talking to or approaching new people. So he has two very compatible strategies: 1. He befriends (in circumstances he finds comfortable) very gregorious people - and they use him as their wing man (sort of how you described your west coast friend). One friend like that will get you into all kinds of social situations, and you won't have to do much talking while you act as your friend's wingman. 2. He stands at the side of a room (say at a party) and looks dark and mysterious (ok ifyou are blond you can look blond and mysterious). Sometimes he takes a camera and takes interesting pictures, or drinks to have something in his hand. Invariably women approach him because he has made himself at least minimally approachable and because he is attractive. He too is a man of few words, but by looking mysterious and dark, I think they almost expect it when they go up to him.

One last thing - you mentioned that when a woman doesn't mind that you are very quiet you tend to dismiss her. All I can say is NO NO NO! At least spend time with her - she can be a bridge to other people. If she is chatting with you (and you are standing there silent), then other people will come up and talk with you both as well, and you can be the quiet one in the conversation, contributing a word here and there.
posted by zia at 8:15 AM on July 10, 2007

I'll suggest that your problem may in fact be at least partially the vicious competition for the attention of women in New York City, and present myself as a control group of one, since I'm another attractive-but-lonely single NYC guy - but where you're reticent and laconic I'm glib and garrulous and could talk about my apartment for an hour. Also, I own both the companies I work for and travel a lot and am out all the time with my cool friends.

It isn't enough! The smart confident women we're attracted to don't generally move to NYC to meet cute affable computer nerds, however conversationally engaging we might be - they move here to test their ambitions, professional, social, and romantic. They're happy to have a drink and a laugh with fellows like us, but they're not likely to give up all the opportunities that being a single young woman in the city affords just for a good time's sake.

You can console yourself with two thoughts, one mean and one noble. First, most such women end up disappointed and alone, if not dead and full of laudanum like poor Lily Bart. Second, there are also a few weird cool hot women out there and if you stop worrying about it so much and do your own thing well maybe one will fall in love with you.

Or, get a cat, they're nice too.
posted by nicwolff at 8:18 AM on July 10, 2007

I look around for objects or goings on in the current environment to comment on, but nothing seems right or just seems stupid to verbalize.

I totally feel you on this, and the main thing that's helped me is to give myself the freedom to sound stupid:

"How's the apartment?"
"Good. My cat scratches."
"What?"
"The walls, my cat scratches the walls. She scratches. The walls. That is less good."
"Oh. You have a cat?"
"Yes, I do. She scratches the walls. It makes these little furrows in the wood. Little furrows, due to my cat."
"Oh. I had a cat that did the same thing once."
"Tell me about your cat, please."

Conversation: STARTED!
posted by Greg Nog at 8:56 AM on July 10, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

At one point his wife asked me "how's the apartment?" which seemed a bit of a random/odd question, but I said "good". Queue lull.
You need bounceback. I used to suck at this as well, until I started working with some real investigative journalists. Those guys are completely able to have a 20-minute conversation with you, and at the end of it they know your entire life story, and you know nothing but their name.

Instead of thinking of what you'll say next, trying continually thinking of what you'll ask next.
posted by bonaldi at 8:56 AM on July 10, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

It's interesting that you give the example of the question about your apartment, having upthread mentioned that you haven't put any art work up yet. You will definitely have more things to say (and feel less boring to yourself) if you are really LIVING.

Living is putting art up, if you really want to. So do that, and the next time someone asks you about your apartment, you can say that you've just hung art (they'll then ask you what you decided to put up and why) or that you're looking for art to put up (what do you like, where might it be found).

You don't have to have done lots of fascinating things in order to live. Have an active mind and notice things outside of yourself. This habit will give you things that you want to share with others, even if it's, "Has anyone else noticed there are a lot of reality shows about chefs right now? Chefs must be the new rock star." Or, "I was noticing that Brooklyn feels more like the 'country' than the suburbs, because the buildings seem to catch and channel breezes."
posted by xo at 9:22 AM on July 10, 2007

I was a at a friend of a friend's birthday a few weeks ago at a bar. I knew a few of the people, but not many of them. At one point his wife asked me "how's the apartment?" which seemed a bit of a random/odd question, but I said "good". Queue lull. Then her husband piped in as people looked on "he's a man of few words", and people kind of chuckled and moved on. I mean, what do you say to a random question about your apartment? Sure, you can extend that a million ways, but in the moment . . ."good" was all I could come up with. It's situations like that ad infinitum that I find myself in and really is more the crux of the issue.

AHA!

I, too, read your original post and thought OH GOOD LORD!!!! but now I think I understand what you were trying to get at.

Do you know about improv? (I'm not trying to get you to take a class.) A good improvisational comedian doesn't say no. Your answer must always be "Yes, and--"

"How's the apartment?"

"Good." ("No.")

"...oh."

vs.

"How's the apartment?"

"Good! I really feel like I'm settling in. It's such a relief to have everything unpacked, you know?" ("Yes, and--")

"I hear you. When Karen and I moved...."

And you're off and running.

This is a super-simple fix! Don't panic! Don't be convinced that there's something wrong with you! Just try the "Yes, and--" technique for a few weeks and see how that works.

This isn't an issue of coming up with huge witticisms on the spot, either. You're just trying to make an open statement as opposed to a closed one. That's it. You can do it!
posted by thehmsbeagle at 9:59 AM on July 10, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

Okay, you're not playing the conversational game.

I agree with this! The situation you described in the comments made me think of trying to speak with some guys who use very few words and don't say much about themselves. After a while, I started to feel like the guy was snobby/standoffish and basically expected me to entertain him, because he didn't try to contribute anything to the conversation. Nothing to give, you know? Of course, I do this too when I draw a blank as to what to throw back. Something to work on.

It takes practice... Don't be afraid to say something stupid or uninteresting as long as you don't go on forever about it, it's more about keeping things going.. For instance, instead of saying your apartment is "good," you could say "Good, I am thinking about painting, I am trying to decide what color" or "Good, but my neighbor are driving me crazy" or "Good, I really love my neighborhood, I live in ___" (don't New Yorkers have endless things to say based on the precise block you live on, after all?)
posted by citron at 10:13 AM on July 10, 2007

I totally feel you on this, and the main thing that's helped me is to give myself the freedom to sound stupid

Seconding this. I'm no master of this, by any means, but I'm getting better at it. Instead of considering and rejecting five possible responses as stupid, just go ahead and say the stupid thing. For me, it helps to remember that conversation is not a formal debate. If you start telling some story that has only the vaguest connection to a story someone else just finished, no one's going to call you on the borderline non sequitur.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 10:29 AM on July 10, 2007

If you start telling some story that has only the vaguest connection to a story someone else just finished, no one's going to call you on the borderline non sequitur.

I actually got over a great deal of this same problem myself when I started listening to other people talking and realized that the better you know someone, the more random the conversational shifts generally are. That is, strangers who are just getting to know each other stay very close to the original topic and introducing new topics is often difficult (which is why those conversations can seem so stilted), whereas friends will often totally switch gears every other sentence or so ("Oh! I forgot to tell you about this thing that happened yesterday!").

So I just gave myself permission to bring up more random things with people I wanted to put into the category of "friend," and while I occasionally got weird looks on some of the topic shifts, in general it was fine.
posted by occhiblu at 11:13 AM on July 10, 2007

Oh, to the above I should have added: You do, however, have to have a decent sense of conversational rhythms. Don't switch topics while everyone else is still going strong on something else.

Maybe just go someplace where you can eavesdrop on other conversations for a while? (That's actually one of my favorite things to do in NYC, anyway.) It's amazing to notice how often people say inane things, how often those inane things really don't bother anyone or even attract notice, and how functional many of those inane utterances are in keeping the conversation going, and to get a feel for the general ebb and flow of different conversations.

You might also, if this is something that interests you, look into some of the language work by people like Deborah Tannen; the articles I've read have all dealt with gender differences, and I'm about to put you in the gendered-female role here so bear with me, but many of them talk about how women's language tends to be filled with questions, affirmations that show they're listening, emotional expressions of reactions ("Oh, how funny!"), and other various more or less content-free utterances that serve the important function of keeping a conversation going. These sorts of things aren't exclusive to women, and I think that most of the men that I really enjoy talking with are pretty good at using them as well. It might be something to study up on a bit -- It might help you to think of yourself as serving a social function in a conversation rather than simply being required to pass along content, since it seems like worrying about the content is tripping you up.
posted by occhiblu at 11:20 AM on July 10, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Come to the next NYC MeFi meetup. Seriously, do it.
posted by spec80 at 11:21 AM on July 10, 2007

Practice, practice, practice. I think what's happening here is that in Real Life, you're bombarded with so many non-verbal cues that if you're not used to dealing with them, you freeze up. It's kinda like playing Defender for the first time -- you're just saturated with SO MUCH INFORMATION that you can't process it all and still function effectively on a conscious level.

So practice. On everybody. Easy wins are service people (waiters/waitresses, bartenders, etc.), because they're essentially paid to be social, and they're a short-term, no-strings-attached, captive audience. (mwuhaha!!) You can extend these practice conversations to grocery checkout clerks, bank cashiers, etc. Just a simple "how's your day goin?" will do.

But don't stop there. Start chatting up regular people you come across in your everyday life. Your neighbors, the lady in line in front of you at the grocery store, your sister's friend. Over time, you'll get better at processing the non-verbal information to where it's no longer overwhelming, and build up a repertoire of small talk and conversational strategies.

Once you become competant, you become confident, and you'll no longer freeze up. Then, one day, you'll realize that you're that Friendly Guy you always wanted to be.
.
.
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So... Just a quick couple things: essentially think of conversation as tennis. (lots of people basically saying this above) They say something to you, you answer + add on a question/topic for them. They answer + question/topic for you. Back and forth. (Note that even if you're a good conversationalist, it's a little hard doing this with somebody if THEY are nervous -- now the shoe's on the other foot!! heh) Don't make them do all the work, but don't hog the ball, either. Crap, that's basketball. Oh well...

Finally, eye contact (via) is probably the most powerful communication you have, verbal or non-verbal, and you may not even be aware of what you've been "saying" all these years. Master your non-verbal communication, and you will literally be (universally perceived to be) a different person. And you'll gain a new awareness of how others perceive themselves, a glimpse into their very souls, which will help you know how to relate to them.
posted by LordSludge at 11:40 AM on July 10, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

The times I do find a girl that doesn't seem to mind, I find a reason to not be interested, usually along the lines of Groucho Marx's "not joining any club that would have me as a member".

I suspect this is the crux of your problem.
posted by astruc at 11:51 AM on July 10, 2007

Ok, we're on a better track now. While I'll cop to being a bit of a freak, I'm not that much of one. (note to self: don't write long drawn out MeFi posts at 3 in the morning, dolt).

More than anything, as I said before, I was just trying to throw all the variables out there that go around in my head. . .but yeah, I suppose it's just a matter of practice, speaking up (I get yelled at for mumbling) and not being in my own head so much. My internal dialogue is less "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how I awesome I am" and more like "Ok man, be cool, be cool here it comes . .conversation is coming your way . . don't choke . . . you got big bear claws . . . (silence) . . . YOU FOOKIN' CHOKED!!! IDIOT!!!".

Ultimately I guess it does come down to practice, or lack thereof, a bit of self-consciousness developed over the years (I do need to get out of my head more and I know this) and start a new career in improvisational investigative journalism. Oh, and a new hobby of tennis ba. . erm, basket b. . weaving? Somethin'. = ]

If you have more tips, anecdotes, or derision to heap on me . . .I'm all eyes. Thanks so far.
posted by teemo at 12:13 PM on July 10, 2007

Oh, and another note, though I don't know how much it plays into it (I think it wouldn't, but who knows). I have a baby face and people often mistake me for about 21-25. I bring it up because I'm at a new client and we're doing the whole "NO WAY OMG YOU"RE 33?!?! YOU ARE NOT!!! YOU LOOK 15!!!" thing right now . . . which is awesome.




For me to poop on.
posted by teemo at 12:19 PM on July 10, 2007

I have this problem. I freeze up in the middle of conversations, usually when someone asks me a trivial or non sequitur question.

It's worse than that. If i'm standing in an elevator, and someone says to me, "It sure is hot today, isn't it?", the first thing that pops into my head is, "Duh! Why would you say something so obvious and pointless?" I am totally ashamed of this thought and I NEVER act on it. I always try to answer and be really friendly. And I don't really think the asker is stupid or mundane or anything bad. But that IS the first thought that enters my head.

Since I don't do chit-chat -- since on a hot day I would never think to mention what I feel is obvious --- I can't help having that thought. I wish I didn't have it, but I've gotten to the point where I'm not beating myself up about it as long as I ACT friendly.

But the problem is, I apply the same standard to myself. Sometimes, I'm frozen mid-conversation, and a triviality or non sequitur actually occurs to me, but I don't say it because I can't stop imagine everyone else staring at me and saying, "Why the fuck did you just say something so mundane and self-evident?"

I KNOW they won't say that. I KNOW that most conversation is a game. I KNOW it's 99% not about what you say but how much you connect with another human being. That's the problem. I know these things but I don't FEEL them. I don't feel them in my guy. So my in-the-moment impulse is to censor all my chit-chat.

But I've made some progress and here's how: first, I recognized all of the above. Second, I asked myself what was worse, small talk or loneliness? Personally, I'd rather talk about the weather than have no one to talk to at all.

There's a game I now play in which I MUST inject a non sequitur or triviality in all conversations. Just one, but I have to do it, even if the conversation is going well. Just one, "man it's hot today" or "I once had this cat named Tibbles." You might not need to do this, but I need to prove to myself that saying this stuff doesn't lead to a social disaster. To my shock, it often leads to an easier conversation! Anyway, making it into an explicit game -- a self-challenge -- helps me. I even have a whole point-system worked out, but that's too geeky to go into here.

Finally, I watch other people -- especially my wife. She jumps into any conversation, willy-nilly, and says pretty much anything, regardless of how much it has to do with the conversation at hand. And she always makes tons of friends.
posted by grumblebee at 12:35 PM on July 10, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

You certainly do often ramble in your post and in your follow up responses. Sometimes it's hard to follow what you're saying. In my opinion, the way you write makes it seems as though you are much younger than 33, perhaps in your teens. Maybe this is a turn off to people you talk to and that is why you don't have friends. Example:

Oh, and another note, though I don't know how much it plays into it (I think it wouldn't, but who knows). I have a baby face and people often mistake me for about 21-25. I bring it up because I'm at a new client and we're doing the whole "NO WAY OMG YOU"RE 33?!?! YOU ARE NOT!!! YOU LOOK 15!!!" thing right now . . . which is awesome.

For me to poop on.


Well that was a non sequitur. Most of what you say is completely off topic to what you previously wrote. I was so confused. The problem seems to be your verbosity. Tone it a down a little. You are all over the place and it's difficult to understand you.
posted by koshka at 1:44 PM on July 10, 2007

Sorry, I'm trying not to be confusing, but again as previously stated I'm trying to cull together variables that may or may not be relevant. Apologies if that or they are hard to understand.
posted by teemo at 2:42 PM on July 10, 2007

teemo -- I think you come across very differently in person than online, and that all the advice on handing the conversational ball off to others is headed in the wrong direction. It sounds like you are too good at giving others the chance to talk.

I tend to do this myself, and while it is terrific for giving people a good first impression, in a closer relationship it gets to be an obstacle after a while. Someone eventually pointed out to me that people feel like you are holding yourself apart from them if you don't talk about yourself. This can manifest as anywhere from them thinking that you don't like them or are a snob to thinking you are boring. The usual advice to not hog the conversation is great for most people, but you have gone to far the other way -- you need to take your turn too.

I've been trying to keep a few topics in mind to talk about with people where I can do a few tricks with my turn on the conversational footbag. Usually I structure these as "I've been up to (or planning for) X", and continue into how I feel about X, it is interesting because I started to think about this other thing, whether I will continue with X, etc. X should be something you feel comfortable sharing most of your thoughts on, that other people you will be talking to can relate to (so travel/sports/hobbies/pets are good, combinatorics usually less so). Avoid bragging, but don't be overly negative either.

If you want to develop deeper friendships, you need to avoid sounding like one of the investigative journalists that bonaldi refers to. People love to talk about themselves, but only up to a point.
posted by yohko at 2:48 PM on July 10, 2007

Here's the question: what DO you want to talk about with others in social situations?

Suppose it's movies.

Someone asks you how your apartment is. It can be great, because it's near the subway (for going to the movies!) or maybe it's too far (for going to the movies much). Or maybe you are hoping to get a flat TV for watching movies on. Hey, it's hot today. You know what I love to do on a hot day? Go to a matinee at the movies. Oh really, what would you see that's out right now? Ah, Ratatouille! Yeah, the fur does look amazing.

Someone mentions you have a baby face. You know who else has a baby face? Mandy Moore/Elijah Wood... seen them in movies? Is it going to be hard for them to get roles as they age because their face doesn't match their personalities? I wonder how they're going to age? Get old-looking all of a sudden, or retain that baby-face into their 60s? I guess Betty White sorta did...

Anyway, the point is that people are just starting off with whatever springs to mind. I get people asking me if I "still live in the same place," a question that could conceivably recur for 30 years. What you can do to turn that into a conversation is just to link it to a topic that interests you, that has some details that your conversation partner can grab on to.
posted by xo at 3:04 PM on July 10, 2007

I just want to say...wow metafilter, way to be a dick. If you don't understand the question, maybe you shouldn't try to answer it...

I too, freeze up in many social situations...it's really horrible. I'm sure you understand how conversation works, but it's the comming up with even remotely relavent/interesting things to say on the spot that's the tough part, right? I guess if you've never had such a problem, it's probably hard to give advice, but damn if they don't try anyhow.

So, I dunno, I don't really have any suggestions, but it seems like grumblebee's got it about right. Sometimes you've just got to say the only thing that comes to mind, even if it seems completely useless to the conversation. Good luck!
posted by gueneverey at 7:50 PM on July 10, 2007

When someone asks how the apartment is, they really don't care with earnest sincerity *how your apartment is*. They're throwing out an easy question to get you to say something that reveals something about your personality.

If you asked 20 people, you would get 20 different answers. One person would mention it has hardwood floors good for their pilates. Another will say the kitchen has a gas stove, which is great since they love to cook. Another can mention the balcony where they enjoy lighting a doobie at sunset.

It's like a Rorschach inkblot test. An interesting person will provide an interesting answer. Of course, as others have said, you can't hog the question. You need to answer it and throw back the potato with a question of your own.

This also reminds me. You cannot think of what someone says as wholly indicative of what they want or what they mean. How often have you not said the utter truth for some etiquette or shyness or other protocol reason? You are perceiving the conversation literally, and at the face value of the words.

Understand that small talk is dull, but its safe. It is why people talk about the weather. No one gives a shit that it's humid outside. Any cretin can tell you its humid outside, but that conversation gives you a common ground, however dull it may be.
posted by umlaut at 9:16 PM on July 10, 2007

Haha, way to be a dick indeed gueneverey. Nah, I think they mean well, or some maybe don't, or maybe they don't give a shit in general. It's not something to dwell on though, and if anything it's helpful simply in the sense that . . people don't give a shit. Or in other words: "Get the hell out of your head man and get on with it 'cos you're over thinking it and it's boring the hell out of me."

Of course one's interpretive mileage may vary. = ]

I must say I had a pretty "on" day. The weather was nice (ok, it was really disgustingly humid, heh) but even still, the night cooled off and NYC had one of it's seemingly rare "alive" evenings. I went and saw a few random people I hadn't seen in a while, met some Italian friend of theirs I chatted with, and overall was social instead of feeling like the deaf-mute red-headed step child in the corner. It just kinda flowed. No deep conversations, but none required either. It was nice.

I attribute some of that to the small assortment of dicks above (thanks bag of dicks!) and some of the more helpful people that read through all my gibberish as well, and saw through what I was prattling on about and offered some good advice. I knew it was a bit unfocused when I started, but then I also offered that disclaimer at the beginning. = ]

Anyway gueneverey, I don't feign to know what triggers it for you, but maybe something posted in here can help you as well if it bothers you enough. It seems that a fair amount of the gamut of potential cause and effect was covered, and while some of it is "duh" (in your best Napoleon Dynamite voice) review to be sure, I think it helped just to read it again anyway. I know first hand that quiet can be better than ok, and sometimes it can be the loneliest feeling in the world. I also think this . . . affliction, for lack of a better word . . . is more common than people let on if 14 people favoriting this is any indication (or maybe they just thought it was a hilarious train wreck, or maybe people just enjoy favoriting shit here, who knows, hehe).

Anyway, I think I needed to just kinda barf it all out there and take my lumps with the sugar. Hopefully this helps someone else too from a fragmented perspective. Of course I don't suspect I'm cured of my affliction in one fell swoop, but fuck it . . .

It sure was humid today, jesus! Though I gotta say driving with some good music and the windows down at 80 mph . . . there's something to be said for that feeling. Or maybe there's nothing to be said at all.

Either way, how are you? How's your apartment? = ]
posted by teemo at 10:59 PM on July 10, 2007

What I noticed here is that you're able to engage in this stuff in a business environment. Do you freeze when you're talking to colleagues? Work associates? Customers? What do you talk to them about? Can you adapt that to your non-work conversations?

I think you're just overthinking it all. My example - making small talk with strangers drains my energy and I don't enjoy it, particularly with the chatty seatmate I always seem to get seated next to during business trips. However, I just kind of go with those default leading responses that were mentioned above, that lead them into additional conversation. People ask me, "how's the apartment?" all the time. I say, "oh great, we just painted it" or "awesome, the park on the next block is so beautiful this time of year." And then I get a response: "oh yeah? what color?" or "which park? does it have a dog run?" and blammo, instant conversation.

Also, just go to the MeFi meetup already.
posted by bedhead at 11:33 PM on July 10, 2007

Seconding the personal social coach---I attended a program in LA run by Bart Ellis, the guy who wrote the Date Doctor (I'm having problems with the Amazon link) book (not for difficulties with my romantic life; I had been given an ultimatum to either attend this or get out of the house--though Bart and the other counselors were the first ones to take a holistic view of the family situation: that I wasn't the only one with the problems and it was in my best interests to get my own place) which I think helped me more than any of my other years of therapy.

I freeze up/ go blank in groups too; what I was told is that if something comes to mind after the conversation passes on to another subject is to preface my comment with "just to get back to what we were saying..."

Much of what is in the book is what was practiced within the program--the attendees ranged from people who had been hospitalized to a man who had been an undercover cop.
posted by brujita at 11:52 PM on July 10, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

I don't think you absolutely need a social coach, but you could benefit from one ( as could most people I suspect ). I have some social issues that trace back to being an introvert, and I solve them by trying to involve myself in social situations where I feel comfortable. This usually means small get togethers with close friends. However, I suspect you would benefit from engaging in some kind of activity that is partly social and partly active or analytical. A book club, dance class, running or cycling club, etc... I know you can't manage a 'regular' schedule, but perhaps you can find some kind of activity that is drop in.

You seem a little Asperger-ish, but I'm not comfortable pigeonholing you there without knowing you better. Regardless, I think you will be able to polish your social skills to succeed in NYC if you keep at it, and maybe get a little help (you can maybe enlist your friends in this endeavor). I don't think there's any profit in thinking NYC is any harder than anywhere else for social interaction. It is different from the west coast, and requires some adjustment, but I was just there from CA this weekend, and I found people to be charming, polite and easy to talk to (excepting the guy who bitched at me on LIRR for not stepping off quickly enough, but no biggie).
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:28 AM on July 12, 2007

OK, teemo, your story's becoming somewhat clearer to me. Some key points for me: you're 33; you want help with talking to and relating to people; you "lob derision" on Dale Carnegie's "infamous" book; and in at least one case you asked a group of people for help and then when they tried to help you you rewarded them by publically saying "thanks bag of dicks" to them.

I think what's going to help you, at this point in your life, is drastically lowering your expectations of other people. You need to fit those expectations to better match the way you explicitly choose to treat others.
posted by ikkyu2 at 3:00 PM on July 12, 2007

As contradictory as the behaviors might seem, the way you've presented yourself on this thread fully explains why you choke in real-life interaction.

You're not good at being concise, and you present information in a chaotic, anxious manner. Alone at a computer, it's possible to construct these thoughts into something reasonably coherent. Real-time interaction requires immediacy, and your mind seems to scattered to do that successfully. It gets overloaded and freezes.

Most likely you do well in a work environment because the context has more structure than casual social interaction. There are guidelines you can follow, and that makes you less vulnerable to your internal noise.
posted by yorick at 5:05 PM on July 12, 2007

ikyu2,

Now this may be where you and I differ, but if I was that bored and insulted by something I read on the internets, I'd just click my back button and be on with it. I think somewhere deep down you're trying to be helpful in your own way, but so far . . . what was it you said again?

"Being boring, incidentally, creates guilt in the person who's being bored. I feel guilty posting this, because it feels mean."

Interesting. What did I say?

"I'll try to keep this relatively short, but I'm not sure what's relevant and what's not anymore frankly, so apologies in advance if it comes off a bit rambling and disjointed . . .". All the same some people felt a need to point out the length and rambling and throw little more than digs my way. Even then I offered a back-handed compliment to them and a sincere one to those comments that I did find helpful. Bag of dicks is apparently an oblique reference (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMy6wVNdllI) and meant merely in playful jest.

Anyway, I suspect if I could write it all out neatly articulated, then I may just know where to start looking at the problem and fix it logically myself. I'm sure you've done that. Sat down to write something out and then sat back and read it and went "ohhhh, wow, duh!!". Or maybe not. Maybe you just bang on assured of your position at all times. That's great and I aspire. However, this not being the case for me, I wrote everything out that I had been mulling over in my head for some time as it came to me and tried to make it as cohesive as I could. Was it great? Nope. In hindsight some of it was definitely overkill, sure. So were some of the comments, as a few people noted.

I don't mind looking a little or a lot stupid if it's necessary. Sometimes it is. In this instance I was honestly flummoxed and just put it out there for some help sorting and interpreting. If you feel like you can offer some of either, it'd be great to hear it.
posted by teemo at 7:07 PM on July 13, 2007

OK! Here goes.

I think your first problem is that you're wrong about your goal. You think this is a case of "I'm alone, I don't want to be alone, I need to do something to fix this. What do I need to do." I think that this is part of your story, but not all of it.

Your whole story is not that simple; I think you're deeply ambivalent. When I say ambivalent, I mean that you are ambivalent in your desire to bring people closer, and you may in fact at the same time desire the opposite. You have demonstrated three, maybe four well-developed ways of keeping people at arms' length just in this thread, as well as telling about a few others that you've noticed yourself doing. You probably can do even more in this regard. In other words, you're a black belt in keeping people away from you, fending them off actively; even while you're feeling alone and wanting more human intimacy. Why is this? I don't know.

Unfortunately, I don't think you have much insight into this. I think you may not even be fully aware of it, as is quite usual in such cases.

My guess is that you're so unhappy to be lonely this late in your life, that those feelings loom very large. And for this and other reasons, I suspect you're not really very aware of the other side of the story, whatever it is.

I doubt you'll agree with me right off - I'd almost say that if you did, you were being glib - and I have no idea what could help you see this about yourself. (I don't think I'm wrong, but that's always possible too.) Insight is hard and I don't know any short cuts. For example, I am about your age and still quite capable of learning things about myself that leave me aghast at how poor my insight was, even if in hindsight they are obvious.

I am inclined to say that therapy would probably be of some value to you, but I have hardly met anyone of whom that is not true, so that is perhaps not very useful as a specific recommendation. What I do think is that your plan to fix this by yourself is not a very good one. In matters like this, I find, we lead ourselves astray more often than not.

For what it's worth, I haven't meant to contradict or insult you. Nor do I think you have anything to be ashamed of. I feel for you - your problems are not unfamiliar to me - and I wish you well.
posted by ikkyu2 at 10:09 PM on July 13, 2007

Thanks Ikkyu2. I think as much as I came off as a rambling semi-coherent mess, you were coming off as . . .well, a bit of a troll. I appreciate that you took the time to expand where you're coming from, I knew it was in there somewhere. = ]

And actually, I don't exactly disagree with you. I'm sure there's another component to it, and again, this was part of why I threw everything in there in hopes someone might go "wow, you're a babbling idiot right now, but I see where you're at, here's what I did in a situation similar to yours". Or at least offer up some thoughts that could help me piece this together. It may well come down to some therapy (what's the joke about everyone in NYC having a therapist?) or in the end it may just be a case of me being too much in my head. I also think it's a combination of some of the ideas above as well. That's what I'm trying to figure out though. I know for sure I don't come off in person like I have here, but I must give off some vibe right? I also forget that sarcasm/dry wit comes off wrong in writing sometimes.

One thing I did note tonight though, my mother is visiting me for a few days and the woman talks non-stop. So does my father for that matter. Kinda like the way I've been writing here ironically. After a while I just have to tune her out to maintain some sanity, though I have the attentive body language and guiding questions down pat. Either way they just keep on talking, lol. So maybe growing up, I just never had the opportunity to really do/learn any of the talking as one or the other was always running their mouthpiece and from there I just got into a pattern of being the quiet one.

Or maybe that's nonsense. Again, I don't know. I just know that it's something that bothers me enough that I'd like to change it and I've decided to figure out how to do so. If that starts with a babbling post on the internets, so be it. I'm not desperate or friendless or a shut-in, I just feel like I could do more to connect with people . . . I'm just not sure how, though I think a lot of what people said is a good start (even the bag of dicks, heh).

So thank you again for taking the time. I honestly do appreciate it. It's all to easy to dismiss people from an outside perspective, whether one has been there or not, and especially when they're babbling on about god knows what exactly.
posted by teemo at 12:43 AM on July 14, 2007