Hypothetical software developer hiring situation
July 4, 2007 3:35 PM Subscribe
A software development specific question regarding the age old experience vs. education argument.
Here's the hypothetical scenario:
An individual has 5 years of experience in software QA, and 5 years experience prior to that in systems administration. In the 5 years of software QA, this person worked intensely as a software developer in their spare time on various open source projects which produced tangible results. One of the most important things to know is that this person has no post-secondary degree.
Is it reasonable to think that this person could apply to an average North American tech-based company as a software developer and land the job? I know this is largely based on the company, so if it's not possible to imagine an "average company", put yourself into the shoes of the hiring manager. With all else equal, would you seriously consider hiring this person?
All answers are welcome and appreciated.
Here's the hypothetical scenario:
An individual has 5 years of experience in software QA, and 5 years experience prior to that in systems administration. In the 5 years of software QA, this person worked intensely as a software developer in their spare time on various open source projects which produced tangible results. One of the most important things to know is that this person has no post-secondary degree.
Is it reasonable to think that this person could apply to an average North American tech-based company as a software developer and land the job? I know this is largely based on the company, so if it's not possible to imagine an "average company", put yourself into the shoes of the hiring manager. With all else equal, would you seriously consider hiring this person?
All answers are welcome and appreciated.
No. At least not where I work. Both experience and education enhance employability, but in different ways. As for other companies, or in general, then you're right, it depends on the employer and the position.
posted by normy at 3:56 PM on July 4, 2007
posted by normy at 3:56 PM on July 4, 2007
I'd say, no matter what the person has been doing for the past ten years, they have a shot of being hired if they can show that they know their stuff.
It would help if the person knows somebody in the company and can land the interview on recommendation alone, or if the person were looking for work during a tech boom, but even without those things, it's certainly possible to imagine and it does happen.
(Similarly, I've known people with sub 2.0 GPAs who have been hired, etc.)
posted by iguanapolitico at 3:59 PM on July 4, 2007
It would help if the person knows somebody in the company and can land the interview on recommendation alone, or if the person were looking for work during a tech boom, but even without those things, it's certainly possible to imagine and it does happen.
(Similarly, I've known people with sub 2.0 GPAs who have been hired, etc.)
posted by iguanapolitico at 3:59 PM on July 4, 2007
Yes. Most right-thinking tech companies will require code samples, working example projects and practical tests during the interview process.
That being said, the education line-item will certainly help a candidate's resume float to the top of the stack. But a lack of formal training will not exclude most candidates that make it to the interview stage.
The trick is, then, to make it into the interview stage. Best way to do that is to have a well-designed Web site available featuring small downloadable projects that display your practical skills.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:12 PM on July 4, 2007
That being said, the education line-item will certainly help a candidate's resume float to the top of the stack. But a lack of formal training will not exclude most candidates that make it to the interview stage.
The trick is, then, to make it into the interview stage. Best way to do that is to have a well-designed Web site available featuring small downloadable projects that display your practical skills.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:12 PM on July 4, 2007
I think at most places, unfortunately no. I think most companies have HR screening resumes before the manager looks at them. The manager probably realizes that real world development experience is more important than formal education, but that's only relevant if the manager actually knows about the candidate. So I'd say this person's best bet is to try to send resumes to managers directly in addition to generic HR contacts.
I'm a web developer with a degree in International Studies. It took me a while to get a full time job based solely on open source and small freelance project experience, but it is possible.
posted by scottreynen at 4:13 PM on July 4, 2007
I'm a web developer with a degree in International Studies. It took me a while to get a full time job based solely on open source and small freelance project experience, but it is possible.
posted by scottreynen at 4:13 PM on July 4, 2007
I had a 25 year career as a software engineer and I have no degree.
But things were a lot looser when I first started working (1976).
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 5:09 PM on July 4, 2007
But things were a lot looser when I first started working (1976).
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 5:09 PM on July 4, 2007
At two of the three companies I've worked in, there were plenty of people who had pretty a tenuous grasp on programming. These were very large companies whose business was highly dependent on software development. If you are fluent in the language they care about, you've got a pretty good chance at the average company.
posted by jewzilla at 5:13 PM on July 4, 2007
posted by jewzilla at 5:13 PM on July 4, 2007
Is it reasonable to think that this person could apply to an average North American tech-based company as a software developer and land the job?
Pretty much no, if you mean the US and if you need sponsorship to get work permission. It's possible to get a work visa for such a job without a college degree but harder, and the options aren't generally as good. (For Canada, I no idea.)
posted by caitlinb at 5:25 PM on July 4, 2007
Pretty much no, if you mean the US and if you need sponsorship to get work permission. It's possible to get a work visa for such a job without a college degree but harder, and the options aren't generally as good. (For Canada, I no idea.)
posted by caitlinb at 5:25 PM on July 4, 2007
yes, ten years of related work experience (plus open-source work you can reference) is much more important then a ten-year-old degree, in my experience. but networking is the most important factor in getting past the resume circular-filing system.
posted by jimw at 7:50 PM on July 4, 2007
posted by jimw at 7:50 PM on July 4, 2007
It is absolutely possible, just not at every single company. More companies than not, though.
posted by LairBob at 8:03 PM on July 4, 2007
posted by LairBob at 8:03 PM on July 4, 2007
How large is the company? If there is a formal HR pre-screening, then probably not. The hiring manager won't ever see this candidate. It's not fair, but it's frequently the way it is.
Some companies do allow experience to replace formal education. Usually 2 years of experience can sub for 1 year of college. Of course, that's going to hurt the candidate in terms of hiring title and starting salary. This person will get the same title/rank/salary as a someone two years out of college.
It might be worthwhile for the person to enroll in a university that allows academic credit for experience. That would put him substantially toward a formal degree.
posted by 26.2 at 8:29 PM on July 4, 2007
Some companies do allow experience to replace formal education. Usually 2 years of experience can sub for 1 year of college. Of course, that's going to hurt the candidate in terms of hiring title and starting salary. This person will get the same title/rank/salary as a someone two years out of college.
It might be worthwhile for the person to enroll in a university that allows academic credit for experience. That would put him substantially toward a formal degree.
posted by 26.2 at 8:29 PM on July 4, 2007
Without a degree, this person will be skipped over during the screening process. If at all possible, this person should find a connection -- even a weak connection -- who can provide a referral. HR and the hiring manager are much more likely to offer an interview to a referred candidate.
posted by acoutu at 9:17 PM on July 4, 2007
posted by acoutu at 9:17 PM on July 4, 2007
Results speak for themselves. If a candidate can show competency in his/her particular field of programming then why not hire him/her ?
posted by chrisranjana.com at 11:33 PM on July 4, 2007
posted by chrisranjana.com at 11:33 PM on July 4, 2007
Another data point on the "yes" side here. But I suspect the other commenters are right too: if the company is large enough to have an HR department staffed by people who don't really understand the work you'd be doing, then your chances plummet. (Too bad for them.)
From a practical perspective, IMHO, having no degree but ten years of experience is no worse than having a degree in an unrelated field (foreign literature or something) and the same ten years of experience.
If I were screening this hypothetical resume, my concern would be that the person doesn't have enough grounding in the theoretical aspects of CS. (Complexity theory, algorithms & data structures, and that kind of thing.) But a passion for programming outweighs a sheepskin any day of the week. I'd certainly consider interviewing such a person for an entry level type of job.
(My company has a few programmers who don't even have high school diplomas. But: one, they were hired during the dot-com boom; two, they went to college anyway (but didn't graduate...); and three, they're the kind of people who read Knuth for fun.)
posted by hattifattener at 1:28 AM on July 5, 2007
From a practical perspective, IMHO, having no degree but ten years of experience is no worse than having a degree in an unrelated field (foreign literature or something) and the same ten years of experience.
If I were screening this hypothetical resume, my concern would be that the person doesn't have enough grounding in the theoretical aspects of CS. (Complexity theory, algorithms & data structures, and that kind of thing.) But a passion for programming outweighs a sheepskin any day of the week. I'd certainly consider interviewing such a person for an entry level type of job.
(My company has a few programmers who don't even have high school diplomas. But: one, they were hired during the dot-com boom; two, they went to college anyway (but didn't graduate...); and three, they're the kind of people who read Knuth for fun.)
posted by hattifattener at 1:28 AM on July 5, 2007
Depends on the company. Some put way more value on a degree than any other factor (eg: Google, and it has to be from certain schools. Yes, they are assholes). Others only experience matters and a degree doesn't mean squat.
In my experience with hiring I have found that no amount of education or hobbyist work can ever give the same results as work experience at a good company. However, there are times when it is better to grab a particuarly bright canidate right out of school (eg: working on a new technology or one where the majority of people in the field are morons. Like Flash Developers until recently).
If you are applying at a company that generally does most of its direct hiring with either very experiences canidates or direct-from-graduation / interns then one good way to get a foot in the door is to do contract work for them through an agency. EG: Excel, Volt, Greythorn etc...
posted by Riemann at 11:25 PM on July 5, 2007
In my experience with hiring I have found that no amount of education or hobbyist work can ever give the same results as work experience at a good company. However, there are times when it is better to grab a particuarly bright canidate right out of school (eg: working on a new technology or one where the majority of people in the field are morons. Like Flash Developers until recently).
If you are applying at a company that generally does most of its direct hiring with either very experiences canidates or direct-from-graduation / interns then one good way to get a foot in the door is to do contract work for them through an agency. EG: Excel, Volt, Greythorn etc...
posted by Riemann at 11:25 PM on July 5, 2007
BTW: For most programming fields I would consider a 4-year degree roughly equivalent to 1 year of work experience. Maybe less depending on the canidate.
posted by Riemann at 11:26 PM on July 5, 2007
posted by Riemann at 11:26 PM on July 5, 2007
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posted by sien at 3:54 PM on July 4, 2007