How do I not get screwed on a used car?

July 1, 2007 12:15 AM

I have a halfway-decent car that I'm looking to sell, and I'd like to buy a beater and drive it into the ground. Looking for a little advice.

This is all very long and overdone, so forgive me, but here is the situation:

I own a '97 Nissan Maxima that I obtained many years ago in mint condition for $1000. It drove wonderfully for years and years, and still drives very well, but I feel like the repairs are hurting these days. Thousands have gone into it over the years to replace various things, no enormous repairs, but lots of oxygen sensors and other bits.

My most recent repair was new ac/serpentine belts, a tension rod, and a vehicle speed sensor; the mechanic charged almost $700CDN for the repair, most of it was labour. He's a good mechanic, I think (maybe I'm wrong) but there was a lot of labour on this job. He's told me repeatedly that all the bolts are frozen, usually things have to be torched off, and everything is a bitch to replace. I live in Toronto and salt is hell on cars here.

Finally, my question. I'd love a small car that fits the following criteria:

1) Great on gas, or diesel. Even though I live in Toronto I'd invariably try and make biodisel in the summer, but regular gas is fine. The stupid Maxima is like $65 to fill each time.

2) Fairly cheap repairs-wise, or simple to repair myself. I don't have many tools, but I have endless patience to learn how to fix things, and I can always rent the tools. I just don't want to get bogged down with expensive parts that are hard to find.

I keep going through classifieds and seeing $500 cars, and it doesn't take a lot of driving for $500 to be worthwhile. What brands, models, or other recommendations are out there? Should I ignore this plan and buy something newer? Is anything still made that I can fix with a handful of tools?

This is such a broad and open question, I hate to even ask it; but if anybody has some advice, helpful or not, I'd love to hear it. Tell me about your experiences buying crappy, sub-thousand-dollar cars.

posted by geodave to travel & transportation (26 comments total)

You can buy lots of $500 cars, that might move for a while, and that you can dump when they quit, if you're willing to do so. But it's hard to buy a $500 car that won't need several thousand dollars in repairs over 2 or 3 years, if you keep driving it.

Sometimes, you can find someone who is trying to dump a vehicle with a minor problem, that they think of as major, but to do so, you've got to be pretty savvy in diagnosing cars on visual inspection and test drive, and you've got to be enough of a poker player to be still buying a $500 car, when you think you're getting a $3000 car for the money. It's not as easy as it seems. If your budget can go up to $2000-2500, you'd stand to get a decent selection of worthwhile, serviceable 6 or 7 year old GM, Chrysler or Ford vehicles, with plenty of miles left in them. If you can move up 3 model years for $1500 - 2000, and keep doing so every 3 years, you're spending $500-700 a year for transportation, which is pretty reasonable.

And you won't generally be doing much beyond battery, brakes, tires, belts, and fluids, to keep these kinds of vehicles on the road. Insurance will be less, because it's hardly worth carrying collision, and for all practical purposes, you won't have depreciation expense, in the normal sense of the term. Essentially, if you excercise a little discipline, you can be driving decent 6 to 8 year old GM and Ford sedans for the equivalent of 1 or 2 car payments a year, for as long as they keep building them.

I've done this for years. I get these cars, and immediately put a battery in them, change the wipers, check the brakes, change all the fluids, put a set of belts on them, and tires if they need it. Alignment and tune-up as needed, check all the lights and replace tail light and headlight bulbs. Clean 'em thoroughly, and in 5 or 6 Saturdays, I've generally got nice running, decent looking cars that are reliable transportation. I try to buy between 80,000 and 100,000 miles, from a first or second owner in private sales, and I sell between 150,000 and 175,000 miles. I've not put a transmission or major mechanical component on one of these cars in 20 years. But I have replaced 1 starter motor, one muffler, and an airconditioner condenser in all that time.

I drive 15,000 to 18,000 miles a year.
posted by paulsc at 12:43 AM on July 1, 2007 [9 favorites]

What kind of tools and equipment have you got, paulsc? Can I do that with minimal tools and some jackstands?
posted by geodave at 12:58 AM on July 1, 2007

I've heard Ford & Chevy truck parts are really cheap and that they're really easy to fix. (This was in the US southwest when I was asking.) They do only get around 20-24 mpg, unleaded, though they surely make them in diesel. And they're a truck, so I don't know if you'd go for that. If you would, for better gas mileage, you might check into those 2WD diesel Toyota trucks and find out whether parts/repairs are easy for them.
posted by salvia at 1:12 AM on July 1, 2007

I used to be a mechanic, so I've got a full selection of hand tools. But you don't need too many specialized tools to do basics - sockets, combination wrenches, screwdrivers, pliers, hammers, pry bars, jacks and jack stands, maybe a creeper and a good trouble light. If you're going to do brakes, there are some specialized brake tools that come in handy, and you may want things like a hand drill, orbital buffer, or other small power tools, from time to time. Maybe measurement tools like feeler guages, micrometers, vernier calipers, digital multimeter, anti-freeze tester, battery acid float tester, as you need them for specific jobs.

$200 in tools goes a long way, if you buy good tools on sale, or find them at garage or estate sales. Spend $20 on a Haynes manual for any car you own, and have a look ahead of time for any procedures you're going to attempt. The Haynes manuals will often have lists of special tools you'll need for specific things like air-conditioner service, and photos of the procedure.

But don't go hog wild on tools at the outset. Get good ones, and shop.
posted by paulsc at 1:22 AM on July 1, 2007

I drove a fourteen-year-old champagne beige 1985 Toyota Camry (with AC and moonroof!) in high school, and it ran *perfectly* until I moved to college a few years later. We spent about US$1500 on it, plus about $200 to fix it up a bit (tires, radio, brakes, etc), but this was in Southern California, with no salt or snow or rust to deal with, so I imagine you'd pay less. It's not sub-thousand, but was perfect for a cheap commuter car that had oodles of parts lying around (apparently junkyards are a way to get used parts cheap), and it only died when I totaled it on my dad's birthday making a boneheaded left turn a few years after we bought it. Literally no problems up to that point!

Also, Volvo 240s are supposed to have unreal lifespans, and come in a diesel version too. Here's a 240 in Toronto for C$750.
posted by mdonley at 1:29 AM on July 1, 2007

Holy Gods, that volvo would be the ugliest and most awesome car I'd ever own.

I may just have to.
posted by geodave at 1:45 AM on July 1, 2007

The best part about it are the stickers telling you which way to pass. I haven't seen those since Indonesia.
posted by mdonley at 2:18 AM on July 1, 2007

Volvo 240. For now. For life. 4 Evah.

I'm logging over a million miles between two--and have spent less the $300 among them in repairs.

These days I'm rocking 850 (S70) series in addition to the 240 wagon. As fast and as cheap as I choose to go.
posted by sourwookie at 2:41 AM on July 1, 2007

I think Paulsc has it nailed for how to drive older vehicles for cheap. I've done much the same thing, but avoiding US car companies, and it's way cheaper than buying new.

But I don't see how selling a $1000 car, with most of its known issues fixed, and buying a $500 car which will need some money put in from the beginning (battery, or tires, or wipers, etc) will save you any money. There are transactional costs to this -- you have to pay licensing and registration fees; there is the time you spend on the buying and selling of the vehicles -- that need to be part of your analysis as well. You already have a fuel efficient vehicle which has reliable major components. Unless you buy from someone who is importing cars from the southwest of the US, your $500 new car will have the same issues of rusted bolts, etc, that your current car does.

And not many $500 cars are going to get stunningly better gas mileage than your current vehicle, either. Certainly not if you follow Paulsc's approach and buy US-made vehicles -- those generally (with some exceptions) got distinctly worse mileage than Japanese cars. There are some diesels that will do somewhat better, and you could do your own biodiesel, but with the added cost of the setup to do the biodiesel -- again, the payback time may be quite long.

So I think you have the right approach for saving money on transportation -- I just think that selling selling your current car now is a mistake. The way you make this sort of system work is to drive each beater until it has an expensive problem, and then sell it for parts or give it away, and buy a new one. Until then, you aren't coming out ahead by doing this, I don't think.
posted by Forktine at 5:12 AM on July 1, 2007

I think Forktine is on the right track.
I've owned two Maximas and it sounds like you've been doing the usual repairs. Repairs which, btw, occur with any used car. It simply makes no sense to sell the Maxima to buy a beater which is guaranteed to have to have a whole slew of similar repairs made.
The only way to avoid having to make repairs on whatever car you buy is to buy a new car with a warranty.

The 97 Maxima is relatively easy to perform basic maintenance on. The big plus is that the VQ engine in those cars is one of the best 6-cylinder engines ever made. Pretty much bullet-proof with proper maintenance.

Personally, I'd keep the Maxima and drive it into the ground. Which should take a good long time. We drove our '91 Maxima for 314,000 miles. And then we sold it for $1000 and it was still running/driving great. We have about 250k on out '01 Maxima now.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:00 AM on July 1, 2007

But ya know... sometimes you just want a change, and it's not all about the money. There are intangibles to think about. No matter how much you like your car, sometimes you just get tired of it.
posted by The Deej at 7:55 AM on July 1, 2007

The Deej is absolutely right about change for change's sake, and the nice thing about $500 cars is that you can leave it on the side of the road and buy another without feeling the pinch.

But what I wanted to add is that driving beaters makes the most financial sense when you do at least a bit of the work yourself -- the things, like replacing belts, that take labor but not a lot of tools, skill, or expensive parts. As you are discovering, paying someone to do these things is really expensive, relative to the value of the car. (Of course, it is at least as expensive to pay someone to do those things on a newer car, but the cost represents a smaller fraction of the car's value, and for some reason that makes it hurt less.)

The best way to avoid the problem of needing a part that you can't find is to buy a really common car -- one that they sold millions of, and that every junkyard will have lots. So a Ford F150 is great, and a Honda Civic isn't bad, but an ultra-rare European model could be deadly. Cars (like old Volvos and VWs, say) that have a rabid fan-base are also great, because there are plenty of specialized parts supplier and online forums who can tell you the difference between the 1983 and 1984 muffler bearings and why you want one over the other, or how you can use a $5 NAPA relay instead of the $150 Toyota part.

And Paulsc is right about not needing much in the way of tools to get started. The majority of common repairs on most cars can be done with nothing more than a socket set and some wrenches, plus pliers, a multimeter, and a couple of other cheap items. As long as you buy tools as needed, and factor them into the cost of the repairs (or borrow from friends, rent, or otherwise get temporary use of them), you won't have to have any huge outlay at once. And if you limit yourself to smaller, easier to accomplish repairs, you have no need for large and pricey items like engine hoists, transmission jacks, or lathes.
posted by Forktine at 8:23 AM on July 1, 2007

Everybody has good advice here (and, aside from my preference for Japanese cars, it sounds like paulsc and I are very much on the same page), but Forktine's onto something--you want to 1)buy a beater car and 2) drive it until it becomes cheaper to scrap it than to fix it, or until finding parts is literally impossible. The thing is, though, you've already completed step one, which is, by far, the more difficult and expensive half. You've already got the cheap beater car--the next step, at this point, I think, is to drive it into the ground, and to take the good advice about Volvos and F150s and Civics and Toyota pickups and file it away until you need it.

One more tip: many public libraries have access to Chilton's website (they're one of the big repair-manual publishers). Failing that, nearly all public libraries have a large selection of Chilton and Haynes repair manuals. Failing that, Amazon resellers often have very good deals on used copies. And if you buy one of those, it'll probably come pre-grease-stained--it's a time-saver.
posted by box at 8:49 AM on July 1, 2007

Oops, let me clarify:

I'm on my third Volvo (currently driving two). Each one over 350,000 miles--totalling over a million. Still drive a 240 wagon (cargo cruiser) and a stick 850 (daily driver luxo-sedan). Sold my old wagon but it never gave me any grief either. I'm not kidding, no major repairs on any of them yet.

In my experience Volvos don't die very often, however this town is blessed with a non-dealer Volvo guru who has done nothing but become an expert on about five models of cars for over 30 years.
posted by sourwookie at 10:58 AM on July 1, 2007

If it's possible invest in a new car. It will save you money in the long run.

If it's a Japanese car better, something like a Honda or a Toyota.
posted by WizKid at 11:23 AM on July 1, 2007

If it's possible invest in a new car.

Ouch. "Invest" and "new car" are 2 words that should never be in the same sentence. A car of any kind is not an investment, but a depreciating asset. A new car, much more so.

I have bought a number of inexpensive but workable vehicles, driven them for a year or 2, then sold them for as much or more than I paid, without sinking a lot into repairs. It can be done.

My current vehicle, a 1992 Saab convertible which I love, cost me $3400, and I have driven it over 3 years. I've done under $1000 in repairs, including an expensive-because-it's-a-Saab muffler. It's getting to the place where, like the OP, I am deciding whether to drop money into it, or get something else. If I dropped it off a cliff today, I would consider that I have gotten my money's worth. A new car can lose $4000 in value in 6 months.

I want a new car. A new Saab convertible, or a VW Eos. But I want it because I like it, not because it will save me money in the long run. For now... my finances dictate that a new car is not in my immediate future.

Maybe a late-model used car could save money in the long run, but a new car, certainly not.
posted by The Deej at 12:02 PM on July 1, 2007

I didn't do a great job of enunciating my underlying philosophy in my previous posts, so let me correct that, now. Very simply, it's this:

It's better to sell beaters, than to buy and drive beaters.

There is always a ready market for cheap cars, simply because a lot of people can afford nothing else. It's not hard to get $1000 for a $500 car that looks only a little better than the rest of the $500 cars that are always around. Just a little cosmetic effort can be worth $500 at the bottom of the scale, even to the point of just wiping down the engine compartment a bit. I typically sell a car within 1 or 2 days of parking it on a busy corner with a "For Sale" sign in the window. Selling beaters is becoming something of an art form for me.

But $500 cars get no love in their last months, from people that are selling them for $500, generally. That leaking transmission seal? Wasn't worth a fluid change, and maybe hasn't always been topped up when fluid was low, leading to damaged friction linings on the automatic transmission clutches. Oil changes? Who really does 3,000 mile oil changes on $500 beaters, or even bothers to fix something as minor as a leaking valve cover gasket? So, buying beaters, if you intend to drive them for any length of time, is a money pit 90% of the time, even if you do your own work.

On the other hand, if you can buy cars for $2000, and sell them for $1500, you're still driving, what are to you, $500 cars. They're just substantially nicer, safer, more dependable $500 cars, than the real $500 beaters. And that's what I aim to do, because there is a tremendous quality difference between $2500 cars, and $500 cars, where ever I've lived. Basically, I'm using $2000 of saved capital, constantly invested in changing, newer rolling stock, and some discipline, to keep from having to drive real $500 cars. And in my experience, I'm spending a lot less money and effort than I would, if I were really trying to keep $500 cars reliable and safe.

As for the mileage issues, one of my current cars is a 2 owner 1997 Dodge Intrepid (I'm the third owner), with 174,000 miles. I just took it on 1800 mile road trip a few weeks ago, and got 26 mpg, with its 6 cylinder engine. Unless I were doing way more than the 15-18,000 miles a year I currently drive, restricting myself to 30+ mpg vehicles would make no economic, and very little environmental sense. I tend to think that keeping serviceable cars on the road, the way I do, is generally better environmentally, than artificially driving the new car sales machine.
posted by paulsc at 12:21 PM on July 1, 2007

Great points paulsc. I think I bought one literal $500 car when my car suddenly gave up the ghost. All I could scrape together was $500, and I bought an old Datsun 700 series poop-brown car. It was over 20 years old when I bought it, and it showed every year. It constantly smelled of gasoline due to leaky injectors, and had plenty of rust, which here in Montana is rare for a car of any age. I got a years worth of commuting out of it before it died. My only repair was to have the radiator rebuilt. I did the removal and re-install myself, and a radiator shop did the rebuild. About $200.

If I had a choice at all, no, I wouldn't buy another $500 car. You are right, there is a huge difference for another $1500.
posted by The Deej at 12:47 PM on July 1, 2007

okay, permit me to jump in here: if you have $2000 or $2500 to purchase a little bit better of a car ... which one? still a volvo?
posted by krautland at 2:31 PM on July 1, 2007

In general, Japanese cars are a good bet. Volvos and Saabs are very reliable too. They can be more expensive to repair, and a bit quirky, but they don't need repair often.

Having said that, the older a car is, the more important the individual vehicle's condition and maintenance becomes. I would rather have a $2000 Ford, which has been immaculately maintained, than a $2000 Honda which has been run into the ground.

In that price range, some of the absolute best cars are older Cadillacs and Lincolns. They are not attractive to most kids, they have usually been owned by older people who have maintained them obsessively, and they have features and comforts that other cars only dream of. And they are whisper quiet on long trips. You will pay more for gas (another reason they go for less money) but for what you get it can be worth it.
posted by The Deej at 2:42 PM on July 1, 2007

In Detroit zip code 48234, Kelly Blue Book thinks a 1999 Chevrolet Lumina in fair condition with 90,000 miles should go from from $2550 to $3000. That's a 4 door sedan, with a fairly economical 3.1 liter V6 engine, unlikely to have been hot rodded much, that can be expected to reach 150,000 miles with minimal maintenance. You could easily drive that car for 2 years, and sell or trade it for $2000.

A battery, tires, and maybe brakes, plus fluid changes, is about all I'd expect to have to do, as maintenance, for a car like that. Maybe, windshield wiper blades, and light bulbs, even a tune-up, if it had never had one. A lot of cars like that are pretty well maintained by previous owners, and have had good maintenance all their lives, with receipts.

They're all over.
posted by paulsc at 4:00 PM on July 1, 2007

My Volvo 240 has 289,000+ miles, and it's still going strong. And it's not ugly. (Ok, it's a '91, I like that style a little better than the '84 mentioned.) The only thing to consider is that you'll want to have a reliable Volvo mechanic close by, or be able to follow the advice of online boards (like BrickBoard) yourself.

BTW, my dad got it for me for $100 (one-hundred bucks) at an auto auction. I doubt you can duplicate his cunning, but there's lots of excellent condition Volvos coming up for sale on eBay every week or so.

Sourwookie, let me know when you sell the wagon...:)
posted by Liosliath at 4:57 PM on July 1, 2007

If you're going to follow paulsc's advice (which I think is really great advice for anyone), I think you should be looking towards a very common car. My personal experience tends towards Ford and GM -- my S.O. drove a 95 Taurus until several months ago, and it's still kicking around in her family, racking up miles -- just get something that no 16-year-old boy would be caught dead in, and looks like it's been taken care of, somewhere in the mileage ranges paul noted. The parts will be dirt cheap, you'll never have to look for metric tools, and they'll be a ton of mechanics who are familiar with them. The Japanese cars may have a slight reliability edge, but I'm not sure it outweighs the parts-and-tool availability in N America. (Including junkyards for body and non-wearing used parts.) If you do go for a Japanese car, be sure to get one that's been in production for a while. If it's not something you see on the road constantly, keep looking. Same for US models that are new; you want something that they've been making 'forever.'

I would honestly stay away from European cars unless you know a mechanic or parts source, on the off chance that you have to replace some odd part, even in a common make like a Volvo, you are going to be looking at more difficulty in finding it than in a Ford/GM or a Datsun. (Although exceptions might be 'enthusiast vehicles' if you get plugged into the community early.) I love my VWs, but even knowing all the VW garages around, if I had a gun to my head and had to find a part for my VW, or for a Ford Taurus ... there's no contest there.

Ultimately the best choice is going to depend on what's around you and what's popular; the popularity of car brands and models vary pretty wildly by region. A dirt-common car in San Diego might be the wrong choice in Ontario, etc.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:31 PM on July 1, 2007

The thing about beaters (or most cars, really) is that you generally don't want to spend more on repairing the car than it could be sold for repaired. If you paid $1000 for your car several years ago, and spend $700 on getting it repaired, you are probably not making the best decision. This is the time you sell the car for whatever you can get and buy another beater.

You need to treat your $500 car as a semi-disposable item. Eventually it will need an expensive repair. This is a sign that it is time to go car shopping.
posted by yohko at 9:04 AM on July 2, 2007

I had a car worth maybe 500, and ended up giving it away when I bought a newer used car because it was a pain in the butt to own it. Great engine, broken brake light cover (inspection issue) and it was costing me car insurance. Nice kid needed a car to fix up. Everybody wins. A frind got a nearly free car worth 1000+ because she emailed all her friends and family looking for an affordable car for sale. Run a notice on craigslist for what you want. At 500, there are cars out three that need homes.
posted by theora55 at 3:46 PM on July 2, 2007

I've got to quote the Bottle Rocket's song on this one, although they're talking about a thousand-dollar car, not a sub-thousand-dollar car...

A thousand dollar car ain't even gonna roll
until you put at least another thousand in the hole

You sink your money in it, and there you are,
The owner of a two thousand dollar thousand dollar car

I may be more risk averse than you, but I'm thinking your Maxima is the devil you know, and while there's some upkeep involved with driving it, its a known quantity which, to me, has some significant value. You may feel differently, and it's probably good to be more objective.

One question to ask yourself is, if you buy a $500 car and have to put money in it, will you kick yourself for it, or feel OK that you made a decent move and had to spend a little?
posted by altcountryman at 11:38 AM on July 7, 2007