Working for the long weekend.

June 8, 2007 7:47 PM

A job was offered to me, I quit my current job, and a week before I was supposed to start the new place said oops, they didnt want to hire me after all. Do I have any legal recourse against them?

I work in a professional capacity as an engineer.

I have been at job A for 2 years and have been looking for a new job for a couple months. I recently was offered a seemingly great new job B and accepted the offer. I was supposed to start in 2 weeks so that I could give notice at my current job. I gave notice, but 1 week before I was supposed to start at the new job they said that oops, they really didnt want to hire me after all. I have emails where we discussed a start date as well as them offering me the job. Now I am screwed because I already told my current job I am leaving, but have no new job to go to.

I cant stay at my current job now, there was some flak with me giving notice and if I was to stay on my position in the company would be significantly worse than it was before.

I have basically resigned myself that if the new place would fuck someone over like this that its not such a great place to work, and that I need to look for a new job, but do I have any legal standing against the firm who offered me a job and then recinded? Lost wages until I can find a new job?

I am in california if that makes any difference.

posted by outsider to work & money (26 comments total)

Define 'offer'.
posted by Jairus at 7:48 PM on June 8, 2007

Their offer says we want to hire you, here is your salary, can you start in two weeks?

I say yes, there are more emails discussing the logistics.

Nothing was signed, but I made it clear that I was going to quit my current job to start at their firm in two weeks, and they reply wonderful see you then.
posted by outsider at 7:51 PM on June 8, 2007

If it was a written formal offer of employment from HR, you have legal recourse.

If it was an email saying "hey want to come work", you don't.
posted by Jairus at 7:55 PM on June 8, 2007

I think you need to talk to a lawyer to get a proper answer to this question.
posted by winston at 7:56 PM on June 8, 2007

Let's see if I can be the first to say -- call a lawyer. Specifically, a lawyer with employment expertise in the state of California. It sounds like you may have a claim for having acted in reliance on the job offer, but an employment lawyer will know the ins and outs of local law, which varies widely from state to state.
So, I don't think you're necessarily SOL, but a lawyer should be able to talk to you during a free consultation and give you an idea of where you stand and what your potential remedies are.
posted by katemonster at 7:58 PM on June 8, 2007

Dammit, winston, you beat me!
posted by katemonster at 7:59 PM on June 8, 2007

My job offer experiences are like this:

1) Interview
2) Get callback
3) Get Pre-offer
4) Accept pre-offer
5) Get Real Paper Offer from HR
6) Give Two Weeks

I don't jump forward to the next step until the previous step is completed. If they didn't send you a paper offer on HR letterhead (if it's a bigger company, at least), then you might be SOL. Still, if you are going to pursue this, obviously, counsel is what you need.
posted by Geckwoistmeinauto at 7:59 PM on June 8, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

The firm is are small (6 people) and dont have HR departments. The principal is the one I interviewed with and the one who offered me the job / writes the paychecks every month.
posted by outsider at 8:02 PM on June 8, 2007

the key question is if do you have a formal offer or a signed job contract.

regardless, talk to a lawyer.
posted by krautland at 8:13 PM on June 8, 2007

Did you fail a drug test? (Don't answer here, but it is one of the first questions your lawyer will ask.) It sounds like offer and acceptance which could lead to some damages you could pursue, but you will only know if you provide all the fine details to an employment lawyer in CA.
posted by caddis at 8:13 PM on June 8, 2007

You've got 'em where you want 'em, probably. Hire a lawyer and shoot to maim. er, figuratively

The key question is probably not whether you have a 'formal' signed offer; the importance of that kind of formality seems to be overstated in the popular imagination. The key meta-question here (as I think in many legal AskMe's) is whether your grievance is of the sort it's likely to be worthwhile to discuss with a lawbot. The answer seems to be yes.

(Really a curiosity or sidenote more than anything else, but we read a case in my contracts class that shared some facts with this: Grouse v. Group Health Plan. The issues are not all the same, and I don't think it's a major case or anything, but it does seem to be widely taught.)
posted by grobstein at 8:53 PM on June 8, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

"If it was a written formal offer of employment from HR, you have legal recourse. If it was an email saying 'hey want to come work', you don't." and "the key question is if do you have a formal offer or a signed job contract."

Is there some unique provision of California law that lists these requirements for enforceability? You're almost never required to have something "written" and "formal" to have legal recourse. (on preview: ditto grobstein) Even if your emails do not add up to the classic "contract" this situation sounds very similar to the kind envisioned by the formulation of promissory (or otherwise) estopple.

So, get a lawyer. They'll probably want to know whether you can remain at job A (even if it is a bit unpleasant). If you can stay there, you may not have any damages to pursue against job B. On the other hand, if you can show some kind of damage to goodwill and can put a dollar amount on it, you might try for that. Of course, if you're out of a job for awhile, your damages are pretty obvious.
posted by the christopher hundreds at 8:57 PM on June 8, 2007

This happened to me more than 10 years ago, but not in California. Several lawyers told me that I didn't even need the signed contract -- my emails were enough to show that an offer was in place and that I had, in effect, been lured away from my existing position. However, I was in my first job after university and very junior. Lawyers told me that my best bet was small claims, since I didn't have enough experience (or earning power) to make it worth pursuing regular court action. I'd only been with my previous employer 1.5 years. However, I couldn't go back and I was without an income.

So I pursued the matter in court. I first sent a demand letter via a lawyer, which used "without prejudice" to request specific damages by a specific date, after which time court action would ensue. When that didn't work, I filed in small claims. The lawyers had suggested I put together a big binder and timeline outlining all contact with the prospective employer, communications and so on. They told me to come up with a list of objections and note replies in the margin. They told me to look up employment law and reference appropriate parts.

When it came to court, we had to go to mediation first, as is the law here. They offered me a little less than one month of salary. I balked. They countered with a month's salary and the lawyer (they didn't show up) said that was all he was authorized to do. He talked to them on the phone and said he was not allowed to give more. The mediator (who was also a judge) told me that it was probably better than going through court and risking getting nothing. So I took it.

As a result of the court action, I was also able to file for employment insurance under "wrongful dismissal". So I also got employment insurance for the time I had been without work.

So, it will depend on how much experience you have, how long you were with your previous employer, how much you earn and the laws in your state.
posted by acoutu at 9:40 PM on June 8, 2007 [5 favorites has favorites]

Wow. There is already some excellent advice here. If you haven't already, print up your emails and as acoutu suggests start building a time line of interactions.

Then go to a lawyer.

But to that I will say that since you're dealing with a such a tiny company I would put together all of the info you have and try to approach the owner who offered you the job. Maybe meet him for lunch and say, "Look at all this evidence I have..." (chuck the emails out there in a binder along with all of your typed and printed notes... implying that this is the same thing you're going to turn over to your lawyer) and then ask for whatever you think is reasonable for your loss of employment.

Since it is such a small firm they are probably reluctant to bring in a lawyer or go to court, so they may just as soon settle personally with you. On the upside this will save you any lawyers fees and some hassle.

Anyway, its worth a try and if it doesn't work out then sue their asses into oblivion. Good luck!
posted by wfrgms at 10:31 PM on June 8, 2007

Toscano v. Greene Music, 124 Cal. App. 4th 685 (December 2, 2004). Court held that a person who quits a job (even if it was at-will) in reliance on a job offer may collect lost wages against an employer who subsequently withdraws the offer.

California Labor Code section 970: No person, or agent or officer thereof, directly or indirectly, shall influence, persuade, or engage any person to change from one place to another in this State or from any place outside to any place within the State, or from any place within the State to any place outside, for the purpose of working in any branch of labor, through or by means of knowingly false representations, whether spoken, written, or advertised in printed form, concerning either: (a) The kind, character, or existence of such work; (b) The length of time such work will last, or the compensation therefor; (c) The sanitary or housing conditions relating to or surrounding the work; (d) The existence or nonexistence of any strike, lockout, or other labor dispute affecting it and pending between the proposed employer and the persons then or last engaged in the performance of the labor for which the employee is sought.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 10:38 PM on June 8, 2007

Oh, yeah...I also tried going to the (small) company via email and in person before sending the demand letter. It didn't work, but it shows you're doing your due diligence.

The employer's law firm accidentally sent their invoice to me. The company had spent as much defending the matter as they ended up paying out to me. And that's just based on the one invoice that was erroneously addressed to me. It was way overdue and I've always wondered if the lawyer sent it to me "accidentally" to show me what losers I had been dealing with. :)
posted by acoutu at 10:43 PM on June 8, 2007

I'm an employment lawyer. You need to talk to one of your own.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:57 PM on June 8, 2007

Just as an aside, if mediation doesn't work and you decide to go to small claims, they won't be able to use a lawyer. Engineering might take it up past the small claims limit, in which case they will be able to use a lawyer, but if it stays in small claims you may get some visceral satisfaction from dragging the bossman into court personally.
posted by rhizome at 11:28 PM on June 8, 2007

you need to mitigate your losses, so don't just sit back an d think they will have to pay me for this. go to interviews, collect snippets from the job pages, keep a diary of your efforts and note why jobs aren't suitable if they truly aren't.

sorry for the cliche but don't be a victim, get out and try and find a job - in the UK you would definitely have recourse so long as you showed there was an irretrievable breakdown at your current place and that you had tried to mitigate.

i agree you need to get a local lawyer too.
posted by trashcan at 12:11 AM on June 9, 2007

I understand that I am not going to win some huge lawsuit and be set for life off of this. I am looking for other jobs, this is just a shitty situation to be in, and if I am out of work for a month or so without pay I would expect to be compensated for that time because I SHOULD have had a job then. If I find another job tommorow

I wouldnt pursue any action against the firm, other than telling people in the engineering community how much they suck.
posted by outsider at 5:18 AM on June 9, 2007

re: claudia, thats another facet of this, all of the jobs here are "at will" which basically means they can fire you at any time and you can quit at any time. The 2 weeks notice when you leave is a courtesy to your employer but not a requirement. I know they have to have a valid reason to fire you however, not on a whim.
posted by outsider at 5:20 AM on June 9, 2007

Have you had a long, serious chat with the owner of company B? Find out what actually happened and why. Maybe they just changed plans and are in a holding pattern for a few months. Once you impress upon them how serious the situation could become maybe they'll be able to get creative with options. And I don't mean an email chat - this needs face to face stuff. You could come out of this better than you would have been going in.
posted by Umhlangan at 8:18 AM on June 9, 2007

Given that the costs of getting real satsifaction here are high. Maybe you should step back and reconsider.

Why did the withdraw the offer? Is it

1) Offering guy didn't have authority to offer
2) Company is subject to sudden reversal of fortune
3) Bad faith on their part

If you know, let that guide your responses. If it is 1 or 2 you might want to consider letting the company know the costs of what they did, make sure they know you are being a nice guy and take the karma bonus and future networking value of being "that awesome guy we tried to hire but couldn't."

And consider yourself lucky that you aren't working someplace so screwed up!
posted by mrbugsentry at 8:20 AM on June 9, 2007

I disagree with mrbugsentry. I personally think you should pursue this at least on principle. Write an email or make a phone call and find out their side, but honestly it's just such a shitty thing to do to somebody (and do they really know the gravity of your situation?) that I feel like they should know it (and they'd better have a damn good excuse).
posted by atomly at 11:50 AM on June 9, 2007

The question is: how much of your life are you willing to give up in the pursuit of "satisfaction?" Are you really willing to burn 200-500 hours of your life and $X in legal fees over the next nine months just out of spite? Every time you meet friends for a beer, do you really want conversations to start: "hey man, how's the big lawsuit going..."

What happens when, after spending weeks preparing your case, the judge agrees with you but gives you $250 in damages?

We have been on the other side of this, where we had a possibly actionable breach of contract when someone accepted an offer, waited a week, then backed out. We didn't even consider "striking a blow for principle." We thought ourselves lucky that we wouldn't have to work with anyone that flaky, delayed the project she was supposed to work on, wrote off the costs of advertising and interviewing, and started the search again. A better person came along.

By all means let them know what they did, but you have almost nothing to gain by being vindictive about it.

And you probably dodged a bullet here by not having to work for these guys.
posted by mrbugsentry at 12:50 PM on June 9, 2007

Mr. BS: "vindictive?" You make it sound like we're talking about slashing someone's tires. Getting compensated for lost work is not something to be ashamed of. You can bet your ass that your company would have gone after some jerk for costing it at least 1/12 of its annual income

Unless he's paid millions, it's incredibly unlikely that he'll spend the amount of time you're claiming. No company is going to fight this kind of claim hard enough to require three months plus of full time effort on outsider's part.
posted by the christopher hundreds at 5:00 PM on June 9, 2007