Magical thinking not so magical.

June 4, 2007 7:58 AM

Newlywed analytical atheist dealing with tarot taking, palm reading, horoscope reading wife.

My wife looks at horoscopes and tarot readings and whilst you may not think this would be a significant problem I am finding it increasingly so. She is very very intelligent in some respects but I find this reliance on superstition to be worrying. I am not sure how best to deal with it and am not sure if it even requires any action on my part other than just accepting the situation.

The problem is as much as she states she pays no credence, I know from observation that if a horoscope says something negative that she actually takes this on board and it can ruin her day - and as such have a knock on effect on mine. She has also used 'playful calculators' e.g. love calculator where you enter two names and it gives a randomly generated percentage score for compatibility. I am aware she has put my name in against hers and other people she knows names and that it has been higher for me with other people. I know this plays on her mind and I don't know quite how to deal with the absurdity of the situation. I have tried gently discussing the logical holes in magical thinking but it is clearly a pattern she has ingrained over many years. Do I just need to accept this quirk and be thankful for the minor idiosyncrasy or is this going to cause further problems later in our lives.

posted by anonymous to human relations (41 answers total)

Well, only the runes can predict whether this will cause problems later in your relationship, but one would hope you'd have known about this before you got married, yes?
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 8:10 AM on June 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'm an atheist. I also once threw out a perfectly good shirt that I really liked because my hockey team lost a crucial game 6 while I was wearing it. I gave it another chance the next season, but, no, it had to go.

The human mind likes to try to find these little patterns in life, and will impose them even in areas where it's manifestly silly. It's perfectly natural and I wouldn't worry about it unless it's costing you money.
posted by shadow vector at 8:12 AM on June 4, 2007 [2 favorites]

I think shadow vector's got it. There's a difference between someone who is convinced that astrology has a sound scientific basis and really works and someone who treats it in their head the same way as someone who avoids stepping on the cracks in pavements.

If I were in your situation I'd start writing her a horoscope every day instead with what I wanted her day to be like, and rig up an online love calculator that has special exceptions when her name and yours are put in. It won't solve the problem but it might make you both laugh a bit about it all.
posted by edd at 8:16 AM on June 4, 2007 [5 favorites]

Magic 8-ball says "Reply hazy, try again"

Seriously, no two people are ever going to be on exactly the same page on every issue. In some ways this will grate on you, in some ways it will benefit you. Hopefully your new bride is different in ways that benefit you more than in ways than grate on you. Look at this as the small cost of those benefits.

Just set it aside and don't bring it up; if she brings it up, just say something like "you know how much that stuff bugs me."
posted by adamrice at 8:18 AM on June 4, 2007

My relationship is a lot like yours in this area, with me being the cuckoo and my partner being the concerned voice of reason. He feels sorry for me because I am clearly soft-headed and inequipped to deal with "reality". I feel sorry for him because I think the constraints of reality are a comfortable excuse to let one's imagination languish, and because I believe that reality is an illusion that exists nowhere nearly as concretely as our senses perceive.

It's been kind of great; most of our biggest fights and arguments have been about philosophy, politics, and our beliefs, all because of this schism. Utlimately it is our constant irreconcilable difference, but it's an interesting one and ultimately it has not kept us from loving and trusting each other's judgment.

Chalk it up to idiosyncracy, keep an open mind, stand up for what you believe, be respectful even when you kid, choose your battles wisely, learn to speak to someone using the language they understand, see how it goes. More than anything you need to beware cultivating an ingrown sense of superiority in yourself because of this difference, because it is inappropriate in a marriage. There is so much we don't understand about life, but if you have the option, you should choose to let love teach you.
posted by hermitosis at 8:26 AM on June 4, 2007 [14 favorites]

You married her for a reason, I presume, with full knowledge of her superstitious habits. At the time, you judged that the good things you shared outweighed your distaste for her belief system (or whatever you want to call it). What changed? Identify that, and you may be close to figuring out what you can do to comfort.

Or, on preview, what what Shadow Vector said.
posted by Alterscape at 8:35 AM on June 4, 2007

I suggest a meeting of the minds somewhere in the middle:

I Ching this is the version by Wilhelm/Baynes, but the part I want to recommend is the forward by C.G. Jung.

Here is the forward in its entiriety, though I would recommend reading it from the book so you can look at what he is referencing.

He does an amazing job of working through the psychology/'science' of how such methods of divination work on, with, and through the Mind.
posted by iurodivii at 8:37 AM on June 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

For me, it was a deal breaker in a relationship that I had. But then again - it seemed to me in that case it was a cover for a very severe case of obsessive compulsive disorder. I think for me the key criteria were:
1. The depth of belief - in my case: very high
2. Degree to which it ruled his life and changed his behavior: very high
3. Degree to which it formed an alternative, nonlogical casual explanation for life
4. Strength of belief - very high
YMMV, just be aware that there is a scale on these things, at the high end it can be difficult to live with.
posted by zia at 8:48 AM on June 4, 2007

There is a book I read a while back that might be good for you. It is called, "Why People Believe Weird Things." Not the most exciting book ever written but really interesting. It could give you a bit of insight into this matter.
posted by magikker at 9:00 AM on June 4, 2007

To echo others, ShadowVector summed it up very well.

My SO and I (btw, me Atheist, her, loose Catholic) are in similar circumstances to yours and hermitosis'. When it comes right down to it though, how much does it really matter? If there was a life or death situation in front of you that you both needed to deal with, would she be able to deal with the situation at hand or consult (insert famous national horoscope column writer of choice here)'s daily charts first?

T'were me, I'd say nothing and enjoy the idiosyncracy. Before I embraced my analytical atheist self, I was a lot like your wife, reading horoscopes and trying to find some meaning in words and numbers and "magical thinking" before I started believing in human beings. I wouldn't trade that part of my past in for all the revenue in Google - it's what makes me a better (and more open-minded, accepting) analytical atheist.

Your relationship and love will evolve - enjoy the ride!
posted by jim.christian at 9:03 AM on June 4, 2007

eh, i would get over it. unless she consults these things to make major decisions, it's harmless.

if it does seem to start taking over her decision-making capacity, though, something else might be going on. indecisiveness is a symptom of depression and anxiety disorder, and if she's leaning on this stuff to take the pressure off having to make her own decisions, she may need some help. (i would say that of people who rely excessively on the bible, or any other external influence. it's one thing to seek guidance and insight; it's another to abandon your own judgment.)

however, let's also make sure you're not going to let this turn you into a control freak. it's hard to let people act on impulses we don't understand and are unable to reason with. if it makes her feel better about her world, then leave it alone.
posted by thinkingwoman at 9:04 AM on June 4, 2007

I think everyone else covered this well, but just a note on tarot.

I read tarot (a little bit for myself, more for others), and I've definitely struggled with the whole "frack this, little bits of cardboard can't tell me a damn thing". Except every reading I've ever given has been spot-on, even for people I've never met. I'm torn between "there is more on heaven and earth..." and "wow, self-fulfilling prophecy is amazing", honestly.

One way to look at is that tarot is also a method for self-analysis and reflection. You pick out what rings true for you in a reading instinctively, and the symbols and ideas lead to thinking about yourself, and thinking about your life. I firmly believe this is a positive thing -- it's just using a different method to examine your life.

(I'm leaving out the other part of this, which is my belief that using the symbols of/on the cards makes it easier for Spirit to speak through me, as it's irrelevent to your issues. Just throwing that out there, though.)
posted by kalimac at 9:28 AM on June 4, 2007 [3 favorites]

I think that everyone who believes something irrational is crazy. You know what they say about crazy...

If you are committed to this particular crazy, then fight fire with fire.

1. Write her horrorscope daily yourself. Post it on the fridge. Make them typically vague, but essentially useless. She’ll add value.

2. Pursue training and certification in horrorscope writing and such. Hold these credentials against her.

3. Come up with your own novel tarot card reading style.

Don't take her too seriously, yourself too seriously, or rationality too seriously and ruin it for everyone
posted by ewkpates at 9:44 AM on June 4, 2007

Seconding kalimac's experience with the Tarot. I tend to think divination tools are convenient templates upon which the subconscious can project -- that can be a useful and beneficial process, and doesn't require belief in metaphysical mumbo jumbo.

The only thing that sounds concerning to me is that she'll let a bad horoscope ruin her day. That does sound unhealthy. Rather than belittle her kooky (to you) beliefs, perhaps you could address just this one aspect of her behavior. E.g., something like, "Look, I don't care whether or not you read horoscopes -- if you get something out of them, I'm happy for you -- but when you let them ruin your day, it affects me too."
posted by treepour at 10:24 AM on June 4, 2007

Sounds like you have a pretty patient wife. Your notion that your belief system is "better" than your wife's is pretty telling about how you feel about her. I wouldn't put up with that for a second.
posted by n9 at 10:24 AM on June 4, 2007

This is a problem?

Just bookmark a dozen horoscope sites. Every day, go read them, and look for the best one. When she says "oh this said such and such" show her the best one.

She'll catch on eventually, that you're showing her only the good. Since this will likely be random-ish, when she confronts you, point out that ten different 'horoscopes' give you ten different answers. Then tell her how much you love her.

And then if you want to take a dig at her (a little, perhaps?) find the ones where yours say a new romance is in the air. Explain to her that you're married and that's not going to cause you to 'fall' for someone else. Then tell her how much you love her.
posted by filmgeek at 10:27 AM on June 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

This might become a problem or it might not. The people I've dealt with who just tell me they do such things because "they're fun" are usually lying and believe that there's quite a bit of magic and prophesy here. The "its fun" is an excuse for things people dont want to admit to. Like "sure I watch Fox News and O'Reilly, but because its hilarious" means you're dealing with someone who has bought the ideology but not to the point of admiting it to certain people.

You can do whatever you do whenever you two have a disagreement. Decide on how serious it is and go from there. It sounds pretty harmless. There's no shortage of couples like this.
posted by damn dirty ape at 10:42 AM on June 4, 2007

Also, I think the "write your own horoscope" and post it on the fridge (or wherever) is a pretty lousy idea. Its essentially passive-aggressive behavior that's borderline mocking. Either address it or let it go, don't half-ass it.
posted by damn dirty ape at 10:43 AM on June 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

Let me appeal to your sense of reason, since you say you're the analytical type.

1. You chose to marry this woman, therefore the good you see in her clearly outweighs her flaws. Likewise, the good she sees in you outweighs your flaws.

2. If she was in a bad mood, and you didn't know that she had read a negative horoscope that day, what would you do? People have bad moods for all kinds of irrational reasons. Why does her reading a horoscope affect your reaction to her mood? Isn't it possible that if her horoscope is negative, it creates a placebo effect in you, whereby you look for negative behavior on her part, thus "proving" to you that horoscopes affect her mood? Also, in my experience, horoscopes are almost always positive, or at the very worst, cautionary (e.g., "It is not advisable to take financial risks.") Therefore, she must nearly always be in a good mood, by your logic.

3. A "love calculator" may indicate that another person is a better match for her than you, but clearly she does not actually believe this, since she married you anyway.
posted by desjardins at 10:51 AM on June 4, 2007

I tend to think of these things as windows onto the subconscious. As such, they can be helpful in a number of ways.

1. Confronting your fears. If you're worried about something, it can bring it out into the open.
2. Planning and thinking about things. A lot of the time, events that happen are predictable, but we prefer not to think about them. If you get sacked, it may be obvious in hindsight that your company was planning layoffs, but you may deny it or just not see it at the time. If it comes up in a Tarot reading, then you might start looking around you more.
3. Discovering what it is that really matters to you.

So, the "love calculator" things seems more like a symptom than a cause. If she has some (maybe very minor) worry that you're not compatible, stopping her using "love calculators" isn't going to help.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 11:00 AM on June 4, 2007

Was this an arranged marriage? Was she a mail-order bride? How could you not know something like this until now?

I would be very much taken aback to learn that anyone I cared about held her own reason so cheap. You want to find out why she needs to superimpose pretend patterns where none exist. What could the day hold that is so scary she wants to feel that she has warning? Why would she so distrust the evidence of her own eyes regarding your compatibility that the number of letters in your name seems to offer greater certainty?

Belief in things like astrology and numerology is not a harmless quirk; it speaks to an insecurity that you want to address with her, and you are the very person who can do it. You love her. What is she so afraid of?
posted by Methylviolet at 11:01 AM on June 4, 2007

It's something to do, some way to believe that we can actually understand why things happen. Maybe you could get her interested in some other system of prediction/understanding. I wonder if that's why people get interested in weather?

Of course, the nice thing about horoscopes and other supernatural systems is that there's always a chance that you will be blessed, that something unexpected and good will happen to you. Maybe you could make a deal in which she gives up the supernatural for a week or two, and you guys work out "superstitious" behaviour between yourselves... i.e., you suprise her with little gifts or blessings or exciting experiences. This is a long shot, and requires better creative thinking than I've contributed here, but that's my free idea.
posted by amtho at 11:03 AM on June 4, 2007

While letting a horoscope ruin your day is worrying, I wouldn't assume that a person with an otherwise minor interest in magic is dangerously irrational.

I'm a fairly devout skeptic and I enjoy reading tarot cards. I don't really believe that a supernatural force is speaking through the cards (although I do think it's possible). Instead, I use the cards as a tool to tell a story that triggers answers, or at least interesting ideas, in my mind. I also think they're pretty.

I get the feeling that your wife is minimizing her interest in these things because she knows that you think her beliefs are stupid and dangerous. Try listening to her with as little judgment as you can, and maybe when you get the whole story this will seem like less of a big deal.
posted by lemuria at 11:28 AM on June 4, 2007

"...am not sure if it even requires any action on my part other than just accepting the situation."

Answered on the first try.

This is your issue, not hers. The most you should involve her is possibly (and only if it's making you throw huge tantrums) ask her to not mention it to you. Otherwise let it go.

As an atheist with many practicing, religious and even evangelical loved ones you can just let it go with no ill effect to either of you.
posted by Ookseer at 11:51 AM on June 4, 2007

Echoing the "dont worry about it" theme, I might also suggest that you approach the subject as a sort of study to understand whats going on in your loved ones head. Joseph Campbell had plenty to say on the subject. As did Alan Watts. And many others.
posted by elendil71 at 1:52 PM on June 4, 2007

a deal in which she gives up the supernatural for a week or two

If this was a religious belief such as Christianity, would you ask that someone "give it up" for a couple weeks?
posted by hermitosis at 3:08 PM on June 4, 2007

Believing in the positivist right of every individual to determine their own system of meaning also includes allowing them that system of meaning that you deem totally fucking retarded.
posted by klangklangston at 3:32 PM on June 4, 2007 [2 favorites]

It is entirely possible that she will end up wasting time and money on more and more stupid things. If you are really unlucky, somebody will convince her that she is psychic and she will start acting like her every hunch is gospel. She may even accuse you of cheating and use a quartz pendant to judge you guilt or innocence.

I have seen it happen with my friend and his wife. (BTW, Yes the rock said he was cheating)

She went from casual horoscope reader to professional phone psychic in a few years and thousands of my friends money
posted by Megafly at 3:36 PM on June 4, 2007

There are more things going on in the world, and your life, and your own mind, than you will ever understand. Logic is a closed system. You actually don't know for sure whether horoscopes or tarot readings could every have any validity.

Your wife likes to experiment with systems that purport to explore those aspects of life that science and logic cannot explain to her satisfaction. That is not strange or crazy at all. In fact, it's been the de facto method of dealing with human life for a lot longer than science or logic have existed as such, and it's not going away any time soon. People need to keep their minds open to the inexplicalbe in order to be psychologically healthy. Your wife is probably attracted to you partly because you're so grounded in logic, and she likes having that balance in her life. If you show her the same appreciation, you'll probably be happier (and healthier) yourself.
posted by bingo at 3:38 PM on June 4, 2007

>You actually don't know for sure whether horoscopes or tarot readings could every have any validity.

This is untrue. A simple test can be made for all of these claims. Divinition produces claims. These claims can be tested. Historically they have failed showing nothing but wishful thinking. Start here.
posted by damn dirty ape at 3:50 PM on June 4, 2007

damn dirty ape: Only individual claims can be tested, not the principle of divination itself. Individual statements made by scientists and logicians often turn out to be wrong as well, and this doesn't meant that the school of thought from which their professions are derived are invalid; it means that they made a mistake.

As far as you know, magic is real, but there have only been two real magicians, both long dead. As far as you know, astrology is real, but there are only a hundred people on earth who know how to do it properly, and that hundred don't whore themselves out to newspapers. As far as you know, there are vampires walking the earth, and aliens among us, but they hide themselves well, and have many clumsy imitators. As far as you know, you're a brain in a vat, or today was actually a dream, or your wife isn't the right woman for you. But we all have to take little leaps of faith in order to get anything done, and in order to believe that our lives have meaning. Some of us pretend that science can explain everything, and some of us read the horoscope once in a while.
posted by bingo at 4:11 PM on June 4, 2007 [3 favorites]

I've had the same problem with a boyfriend in the past who used tarot cards to make some desicions in his life (although thankfully nothing too major) and as frustrating as it is I think you just have to accept the situation. If it really annoys you it might be best just to ask her not to talk about it with you, and not check her horoscope in front of you.
You can try pointing out that her beliefs are illogical, but in my experience this just opens up a discussion about it which can lead to more frustration.
As to whether it will cause problems for you later in life, I think that depends on how much an important part of her life her beliefs are. As other people have pointed out, the fact the she is with you despite the love calculator suggests that she is not controlled by them. I suppose it may become an issue if you have children one day if either of you feel strongly that they shouldn't be exposed to the other's belliefs. If not then you could each agree to tell them what you believe and let them decide for themselves.
It sounds like this is a minor annoyance rather than a major problem in your relationship and unless her beliefs get more extreme I don't think it's going to cause any major problems.
posted by Laura_J at 4:22 PM on June 4, 2007

Whilst as people will gather from my earlier reply I think there's a middle ground where people can let irrational thinking creep into their lives and affect themselves whilst still knowing the thinking is irrational, I can't really let ideas like bingo's go unchallenged, as it's there that irrational thinking goes unrecognised, and that's where it's most problematic.

Your wife likes to experiment with systems that purport to explore those aspects of life that science and logic cannot explain to her satisfaction. That is not strange or crazy at all.

It's unfortunate it's not strange, and unfortunate it's not considered crazy.

In fact, it's been the de facto method of dealing with human life for a lot longer than science or logic have existed as such, and it's not going away any time soon.

This a) does not make it right, and b) mean we shouldn't hope that it goes away soon.

People need to keep their minds open to the inexplicalbe in order to be psychologically healthy.

There is a difference between the inexplicable and that which does not need explaining. There is plenty in science that is, currently at least, inexplicable. Astrology is not inexplicable because there is nothing real there to explain. It's about as inexplicable as a Star Trek transporter and for the same reasons - it's entirely imaginary.

To go back to bingo's first line:

There are more things going on in the world, and your life, and your own mind, than you will ever understand.

There are also an awful lot of things that are not going on in the world, and astrology is one of them.
posted by edd at 4:27 PM on June 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

Listening to you talk about divination like this is like listening to Ray Comfort talking about evolution: latching onto very specific details of a very broad subject and then acting as if all one's opinions on the matter can be based on those details.

As with anything subject, the more you know learn about divination (and it doesn't take much reading to dive beyond the superficial impressions harbored by laymen) the more you understand the logic behind it and the purpose it serves, as well as what can be accomplished with it and what can't. Not your thing? Okay, great. The only point you've proven beyond that is that you don't really know very much about it, except what you might read in scientific studies. That's like only learning about religion by way of military history: fascinating, but totally hamstrung.

If you want to discuss it further, I'd be happy to move this into email.
posted by hermitosis at 8:38 PM on June 4, 2007

People don't understand the value of Tarot and other irrational things. They give indeterminate answers which cause people to examine their own lives for evidence those answers are true. In other words, they induce self-reflection.

Understanding these phenomena allows you to go with the flow.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:29 PM on June 4, 2007 [1 favorite]

Dump her. She's a loon.
posted by pompomtom at 9:30 PM on June 4, 2007

[while magic may or may not exist, METATALK definitely exists and is avaiable for discussions that are not on the topic of the original question]
posted by jessamyn at 10:04 PM on June 4, 2007

Honestly? If my partner was mocking my beliefs like this, I'd dump them. Cuckoo or not, if it's not hurting you (this is where the horoscope thing may be a problem), then why judge? People believe different things. That should be respected, not villified.

If there are things that are hurting you, like the horoscopes and such, talk to her about that - about how her behaviour affects yours negatively. But don't mock what she believes in.
posted by divabat at 12:09 AM on June 5, 2007

I pretty much agree with everyone who says "If it's not hurting anything or anyone, or spending bazillions of dollars on phone 'psychics,' then let it go. And whatever you do, don't get all superior about it." There are cultures-- China and Japan, for example-- where superstition pervades daily life much more than in ours, and it is seen as completely normal. Entirely rational people will plan a business meeting or an apartment purchase for an "auspicious" day, for example.

That said, some of the things you mention may point to a bit of insecurity on her part. For example, if she's feeling a bit vulnerable in the morning, reading a horoscope with something negative in it might serve to cement the bad mood. "I had a bad horoscope" might simply mean "I'm sorry, I'm feeling crappy today; there's no rational reason, but I'd like a hug." Telling her how strong, brave and lovely she is will improve her day (and therefore yours) much more than "You know it's all bullshit, right?" Similarly, the "love calculator" thing might mean that she needs reassurance from you that you'll love her till the day you die, planets be damned.

I am not particularly religious of any stripe-- call me an agnostic with an appreciation for comparative mythology-- and I read Tarot. My take on it is that all the cards are basically sound advice, and seeing how they fall can help a person look at their situation in new ways. As long as you take it more as a snapshot of how things are at the moment rather than a set-in-stone map of your DOOOOM, I don't think there's any harm in it.

In fact, some Tarot decks are quite beautiful as works of art. (Yes, some others are unutterably cheesy.) If and when you make your peace with her worldview, a nice Tarot deck by Luigi Scapini (, stained glass, Shakespeare) might make a good gift, to let her know.
posted by Pallas Athena at 4:33 AM on June 5, 2007

I could see the idea of writing a horoscope for her working. I'm thinking including something along the lines of "a surprise communication brightens your day", and leaving a sweet note where she will find it later. You could take this as far as you want.

Obviously, this should not be presented as a way of discrediting horoscopes to her.
posted by yohko at 9:30 AM on June 5, 2007

Unfortunately superstitions can't be reasoned away, even when exposed. Sad to face as an atheist and a materialist who wishes religion, etc, would just disappear for good, but "Magical thinking" is a normal human cognitive bias - even among otherwise secular educated ivy league students with test scores much higher than mine. (read the article)

Disagree with your wife, in a calm and reasoned manner when appropriate, but don't expect much if any change in her default beliefs, no matter how devastating your arguments. On the other hand if her superstitions do eventually get out of hand and start hurting your household (e.g. from crazy expenditures, hurtful accusations, or dangerous charlatans allowed in your house), deal with those issues with appropriate seriousness when they come, as you would drug habits or other addictions that can spiral into messiness. If "magical thinking" is an unfortunate human bias, it should at least be moderated like other potentially destructive human urges.

This probably won't happen, and unless your wife has more serious problems like selfishness or mental illness, she would be more likely to see such behavior as obviously problematic and work to work through it. But everyday magical thinking like you describe absolutely does not, by itself, suggest things will ever spiral out of control like this.
posted by dgaicun at 7:31 PM on June 6, 2007