How important is ethnicity still?
May 31, 2007 7:23 AM Subscribe
Casually speaking, what is the current state of interracial dating in the United States?
Quite apart from the statistics, what is the current _impression_ of interracial dating in America? For example, I sometimes see these Craigslist postings, and almost all the time, women specify that they are looking for "white" men. Would this be the same in the street?
If you picked an average white girl, between 18 and 25, single, and she was approached by a non-white person, would she view this differently from being approached by a white person? If she started dating this person, would she be branded as having a "type", with the "type" she likes being the ethnic group she is with?
If you are in a club, and you observe a white girl being picked up by a black man, he kisses her and then leaves the club with her, would your internal reaction be the same as if the man were not black? Would you assume that this girl "prefers" black men?
Do you make the distinction between shades of black? For example, would it make a difference if a friend of yours is dating a slender light skinned black girl (like Tyra Banks) as opposed to a darker woman (like this: http://proofmagazine.i8.com/images/door_of_kush_woman.jpg)
If your 15 year old daughter tended to hang out with a bunch of black guys her age, would that bother you?
If Bill Clinton had a black wife, would this change your perception of him?
Quite apart from the statistics, what is the current _impression_ of interracial dating in America? For example, I sometimes see these Craigslist postings, and almost all the time, women specify that they are looking for "white" men. Would this be the same in the street?
If you picked an average white girl, between 18 and 25, single, and she was approached by a non-white person, would she view this differently from being approached by a white person? If she started dating this person, would she be branded as having a "type", with the "type" she likes being the ethnic group she is with?
If you are in a club, and you observe a white girl being picked up by a black man, he kisses her and then leaves the club with her, would your internal reaction be the same as if the man were not black? Would you assume that this girl "prefers" black men?
Do you make the distinction between shades of black? For example, would it make a difference if a friend of yours is dating a slender light skinned black girl (like Tyra Banks) as opposed to a darker woman (like this: http://proofmagazine.i8.com/images/door_of_kush_woman.jpg)
If your 15 year old daughter tended to hang out with a bunch of black guys her age, would that bother you?
If Bill Clinton had a black wife, would this change your perception of him?
This post was deleted for the following reason: chatfilter -- this is sort of an open-ended essay topic, not really a problem to be solved.
Since most of your questions are phrased in the second person, no, it wouldn't make a difference to me, personally. But then, I'm the child of an interracial couple.
To most people? I would guess it's hard to generalize across different ages and across the entire US. From my experience being a college student and living in the Northeast, interracial pairs do "stand out" in that they're unusual, but it doesn't seem to change outside perceptions of the couple in any meaningful sense.
posted by danb at 7:31 AM on May 31, 2007
To most people? I would guess it's hard to generalize across different ages and across the entire US. From my experience being a college student and living in the Northeast, interracial pairs do "stand out" in that they're unusual, but it doesn't seem to change outside perceptions of the couple in any meaningful sense.
posted by danb at 7:31 AM on May 31, 2007
If Bill Clinton had a black wife, would this change your perception of him?
In addition to Hillary, or as a replacement?
The former would be awesome, the latter merely everyday serial polygamy.
posted by GuyZero at 7:35 AM on May 31, 2007 [2 favorites]
In addition to Hillary, or as a replacement?
The former would be awesome, the latter merely everyday serial polygamy.
posted by GuyZero at 7:35 AM on May 31, 2007 [2 favorites]
If your 15 year old daughter tended to hang out with a bunch of black guys her age, would that bother you?
A question like this could be reworded to sound less chatfiltery, but as a whole this post is really just inappropriate for AskMe.
Everyone here has opinions on this stuff, and are from various locations with their own cultural views. Even if there really is some sort of answer you're looking for, you're not going to find it on here.
posted by hermitosis at 7:42 AM on May 31, 2007
A question like this could be reworded to sound less chatfiltery, but as a whole this post is really just inappropriate for AskMe.
Everyone here has opinions on this stuff, and are from various locations with their own cultural views. Even if there really is some sort of answer you're looking for, you're not going to find it on here.
posted by hermitosis at 7:42 AM on May 31, 2007
I think this is chatfilter too.
But, the answer to this would vary GREATLY by region and by person. I mean, I'm a crazy liberal and I have no problem seeing an interracial relationship. But, for instance, my grandparents most likely would have just because of the time period they were raised in. A more conservative area might have more of a problem with an interracial relationship than, say, NYC.
But, I've already given more of an answer than I think this question is worth.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 7:48 AM on May 31, 2007
But, the answer to this would vary GREATLY by region and by person. I mean, I'm a crazy liberal and I have no problem seeing an interracial relationship. But, for instance, my grandparents most likely would have just because of the time period they were raised in. A more conservative area might have more of a problem with an interracial relationship than, say, NYC.
But, I've already given more of an answer than I think this question is worth.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 7:48 AM on May 31, 2007
All I know is that Asian women are the most requested from callgirl services. I read that somewhere.
posted by dios at 7:53 AM on May 31, 2007
posted by dios at 7:53 AM on May 31, 2007
Response by poster: The reason for the sub questions is to get a feeling for the state of racial relationships when it comes to this issue. People usually say a different thing when they do not have a concrete scenario before them.
And there is a reason I said "you" and not "your grandpa". I'm looking for a general impression, and since you are part of the culture, you are part of the general impression.
posted by markesh at 7:58 AM on May 31, 2007
And there is a reason I said "you" and not "your grandpa". I'm looking for a general impression, and since you are part of the culture, you are part of the general impression.
posted by markesh at 7:58 AM on May 31, 2007
First, it's important to make a distinction between negative reactions, perceptions, assumptions, and ones that are just different. There are cases when race or ethnicity does and should matter due to all the baggage historically related to it. Then there are times when we make it matter when it really shouldn't. I assume you mean mostly the latter.
I think people's initial perceptions to interracial couples, overwhelmingly, are negative. However, that is extremely difficult to avoid completely. A good number of people at least recognize that they shouldn't have those reactions, and that they are not rational. That's still not ideal, but better than trusting those reactions and not admitting that they are wrong. Everyone, myself included, sometimes, has negative reactions due to race or ethnicity.
I guess the case is similar with assumptions and perceptions, just that I think those have different connotations as far as how conscious we are of these, and how much control we have over them. So the more conscious we are of them and the more control over them we have, the less likely they are to be negative with regard to race and ethnicity.
Another important question I think should be asked, is simply to what extent people notice and acknowledge the fact that there are really quite a lot of interracial and inter-ethnic relationships there are. If you ask someone, I think they would admit that there are, but as a mixed person, my perception is that people's actions are less likely to show it than their words. So probably, subconsciously, many or most people go about living as if mixed relationships are rare, though when they consciously think about it, they probably admit that there are plenty of people and couples with mixed racial, ethnic, and cultural backgrounds.
posted by gauchodaspampas at 7:59 AM on May 31, 2007
I think people's initial perceptions to interracial couples, overwhelmingly, are negative. However, that is extremely difficult to avoid completely. A good number of people at least recognize that they shouldn't have those reactions, and that they are not rational. That's still not ideal, but better than trusting those reactions and not admitting that they are wrong. Everyone, myself included, sometimes, has negative reactions due to race or ethnicity.
I guess the case is similar with assumptions and perceptions, just that I think those have different connotations as far as how conscious we are of these, and how much control we have over them. So the more conscious we are of them and the more control over them we have, the less likely they are to be negative with regard to race and ethnicity.
Another important question I think should be asked, is simply to what extent people notice and acknowledge the fact that there are really quite a lot of interracial and inter-ethnic relationships there are. If you ask someone, I think they would admit that there are, but as a mixed person, my perception is that people's actions are less likely to show it than their words. So probably, subconsciously, many or most people go about living as if mixed relationships are rare, though when they consciously think about it, they probably admit that there are plenty of people and couples with mixed racial, ethnic, and cultural backgrounds.
posted by gauchodaspampas at 7:59 AM on May 31, 2007
There are way too many variables here. Location, culture, age, etc.
In my church, no biggie. (We're in a military town. ) My white daughter is married to a black guy, and no one there has said a word. Her grandparents are a different story. (We're in North Carolina btw.)
There are parts of the south where I think the default position is that interracial dating is Not Done. Period. And this from people who otherwise don't seem to be all that racist. OTOH my daughter tells me that folks her age don't give it a second thought.
posted by konolia at 8:04 AM on May 31, 2007
In my church, no biggie. (We're in a military town. ) My white daughter is married to a black guy, and no one there has said a word. Her grandparents are a different story. (We're in North Carolina btw.)
There are parts of the south where I think the default position is that interracial dating is Not Done. Period. And this from people who otherwise don't seem to be all that racist. OTOH my daughter tells me that folks her age don't give it a second thought.
posted by konolia at 8:04 AM on May 31, 2007
To answer all your specific question as to my perceptions, reactions, etc, in every case, the answer is yes. I think that's true for most people. I would try not to act on those reactions, perceptions, etc. In some occasional cases, it's likely that I wouldn't even notice my negative thoughts, or would recognize them but still be unable to overcome them, and thus would act on them still. And FWIW, I think not admitting to these things makes it harder to change them.
posted by gauchodaspampas at 8:05 AM on May 31, 2007
posted by gauchodaspampas at 8:05 AM on May 31, 2007
A good and reasonable question, and one which requires a bit of a chatty wording, due to the delicate nature of the question itself. And I'm curious about the answers myself.
It is said, by people who know and understand, that all American white people are racist, to some degree. How they deal with that is the real issue. I know I have some of it, and I abhor racism.
posted by Goofyy at 8:07 AM on May 31, 2007
It is said, by people who know and understand, that all American white people are racist, to some degree. How they deal with that is the real issue. I know I have some of it, and I abhor racism.
posted by Goofyy at 8:07 AM on May 31, 2007
And there is a reason I said "you" and not "your grandpa". I'm looking for a general impression, and since you are part of the culture, you are part of the general impression.
You are taking a very skewed sample of the general culture here. I can't imagine that polling MF would give you an accurate impression of the culture as a whole. On anything.
posted by yohko at 8:09 AM on May 31, 2007
You are taking a very skewed sample of the general culture here. I can't imagine that polling MF would give you an accurate impression of the culture as a whole. On anything.
posted by yohko at 8:09 AM on May 31, 2007
In the small Tennessee town where I grew up, things have changed DRAMATICALLY over the last ten years. When I was in school (1992-1996), there were lots of good-looking, popular, athletically talented Black kids who were friends with the popular, good-looking, athletically talented White kids during school hours, but with very few exceptions, these friendships didn't spill over into out-of-school hours. The only White girls who dated Black guys tended to be overweight, poor, rather unattractive, and they were even more ostracized because of their interracial relationship than they would have been otherwise. This is sad and disgusting, but absolutely true (the males involved in these relationships didn't see a huge loss of status or popularity because of their relationships, but the smartest, most "together" Black guys only dated Black girls). I never once saw a romantic or dating relationship between a White guy and a Black girl, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen below my radar. I, personally, was madly attracted to a smart, funny Black guy I'd known since eighth grade, and he to me, but he was the son of the leader of the largest Black Baptist church in town, and I was the granddaughter of one of the leaders in the largest White Baptist church in town, and we never even considered trying to date, not even in secret. We both knew we'd be in huge trouble both socially and with our parents.
Now, everything is different. I'm sure lots of parents still don't approve, but according to my younger cousins and the kid brothers and sisters of my friends, interracial dating is accepted and even considered something of a status symbol. They've even done away with racially separated class favorites elections, and the "Mr. XXX County High School" title has been won by a Black guy for the last three years (they used to have "Mr. and Ms. xxx County High School" and "Mr. and Ms. Black xxx County High School"). I think it's mainly still Black guys/White Girls, though. According to my sources, only a couple of conventionally pretty mixed-race girls with long, straight hair and light skin seem to get any attention from White guys.
This is all anecdotal, of course, but I thought you might find it interesting.
posted by cilantro at 8:11 AM on May 31, 2007
Now, everything is different. I'm sure lots of parents still don't approve, but according to my younger cousins and the kid brothers and sisters of my friends, interracial dating is accepted and even considered something of a status symbol. They've even done away with racially separated class favorites elections, and the "Mr. XXX County High School" title has been won by a Black guy for the last three years (they used to have "Mr. and Ms. xxx County High School" and "Mr. and Ms. Black xxx County High School"). I think it's mainly still Black guys/White Girls, though. According to my sources, only a couple of conventionally pretty mixed-race girls with long, straight hair and light skin seem to get any attention from White guys.
This is all anecdotal, of course, but I thought you might find it interesting.
posted by cilantro at 8:11 AM on May 31, 2007
Oh, except I wouldn't think that a white woman prefers black men just because she left the club with one.
posted by gauchodaspampas at 8:11 AM on May 31, 2007
posted by gauchodaspampas at 8:11 AM on May 31, 2007
I think we still have by and large a "Why is Jesse Jackson running for president?" syndrome.
When Jackson ran in 88, commentators would always be asking him, why are you running - is it for some advantage as spokesman for the black community? He would answer, I want to be president. That answer was never "good enough."
Obama aside, when there is an interracial couple they are defined as an interracial couple, not primarily as a couple. I was watching Veronica Mars (first season on DVD) and I reflexively asked why two main characters, one black and one white, were having a relationship. Were the producers trying to make a statement? What statement? Of course in fiction, you do have control and people do make statements. Still, I was asking that only because of the interracial aspect of the relationship.
Color defines America - and still defines its prejudices.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:12 AM on May 31, 2007
When Jackson ran in 88, commentators would always be asking him, why are you running - is it for some advantage as spokesman for the black community? He would answer, I want to be president. That answer was never "good enough."
Obama aside, when there is an interracial couple they are defined as an interracial couple, not primarily as a couple. I was watching Veronica Mars (first season on DVD) and I reflexively asked why two main characters, one black and one white, were having a relationship. Were the producers trying to make a statement? What statement? Of course in fiction, you do have control and people do make statements. Still, I was asking that only because of the interracial aspect of the relationship.
Color defines America - and still defines its prejudices.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:12 AM on May 31, 2007
This USAtoday article might interest you, or rather the studies it cites might point you toward some real research about folks' perceptions of interracial relationships. Real studies (of perception--not just statistics and opinion polls) might give you more of the information you're looking for. Self-selecting respondents on something like an AskMe question won't give you much of an accurate view. I'm in an interracial relationship, and I'm not exactly sure how to answer your specific questions for myself.
posted by lampoil at 8:13 AM on May 31, 2007
posted by lampoil at 8:13 AM on May 31, 2007
To address one specific point of your question: people who post Craigslist personal ads are about as representative of greater American society as oatmeal is representative of "food you can get from a cow".
posted by Benjy at 8:23 AM on May 31, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Benjy at 8:23 AM on May 31, 2007 [1 favorite]
When I was a kid in Mississippi, half white, half Korean, we had a discussion about this in our church's youth group. One of the older (white) kids told me he thought interracial dating was "wrong," as in morally and ethically wrong. For instance, he said, if his brother ever dated me he'd take him out back and beat the crap out of him. (He really did say this.)
About two years later his younger brother confessed very publicly that he had a huge crush on me. Fortunately, I left the state shortly thereafter and thus never had a chance to date the boy, so he didn't get whupped by his older brother.
In New York, I have had Korean friends whose parents very strongly disapproved of their children dating black girls/boys. They weren't so fond of the white boys, either, but they didn't forbid it.
As for me, I've dated people of just about every color in the rainbow, but I must admit I have a prediliction for scrawny white boys with floppy hair that I can run my fingers through.
And I don't have negative reactions when my friends date people of other races, but I did have one white female friend who only dated muscular black guys. She claimed she didn't have a "type," but her choices led me to believe she did.
posted by brina at 8:27 AM on May 31, 2007
About two years later his younger brother confessed very publicly that he had a huge crush on me. Fortunately, I left the state shortly thereafter and thus never had a chance to date the boy, so he didn't get whupped by his older brother.
In New York, I have had Korean friends whose parents very strongly disapproved of their children dating black girls/boys. They weren't so fond of the white boys, either, but they didn't forbid it.
As for me, I've dated people of just about every color in the rainbow, but I must admit I have a prediliction for scrawny white boys with floppy hair that I can run my fingers through.
And I don't have negative reactions when my friends date people of other races, but I did have one white female friend who only dated muscular black guys. She claimed she didn't have a "type," but her choices led me to believe she did.
posted by brina at 8:27 AM on May 31, 2007
I'm not sure why the fixation in the question on black-white as the main interracial coupling, since white-asian seems much more common.
posted by smackfu at 8:30 AM on May 31, 2007
posted by smackfu at 8:30 AM on May 31, 2007
I see quite a few intercultural and interracial couples here in south central Texas - black women with white men, white women with black men, hispanic or latino men and women with white men or women, asian men or women with hispanic or latino men or women, and so on. It seems much more prevalent here than when I lived in LA (where I'd see a lot of hipster men with asian girlfriends, but never the reverse).
A friend of mine IS dating a "darker woman", although I've only met her once or twice. I didn't really think anything of it, besides the fact that she has an unusual and rather old-fashioned first name.
If your 15 year old daughter tended to hang out with a bunch of black guys her age, would that bother you?
I'd probably be bothered if my daughter hung out with a bunch of guys her age, period. I know what guys want!
posted by muddgirl at 8:31 AM on May 31, 2007
A friend of mine IS dating a "darker woman", although I've only met her once or twice. I didn't really think anything of it, besides the fact that she has an unusual and rather old-fashioned first name.
If your 15 year old daughter tended to hang out with a bunch of black guys her age, would that bother you?
I'd probably be bothered if my daughter hung out with a bunch of guys her age, period. I know what guys want!
posted by muddgirl at 8:31 AM on May 31, 2007
There are 300 million people in the United States and their views and experiences run the gamut, as you might expect. So what do you want to know, exactly? What I think? There's no way to answer your question in any meaningful way.
Has the legacy of racial fearmongering regarding black men and white women left a slow fading stain on our national consciousness and does that stain affect even the liberalest of the liberal, the understandingest of the understanding? Yes. Is it getting better? Absolutely.
Are you as likely to encounter funny looks and derision in New York City as you are in Mobile, Alabama? Probably, although the tone will be different. At the end of the day, we are only forty years away from Loving v. Virginia. That is not an especially long time.
posted by kosem at 8:33 AM on May 31, 2007
Has the legacy of racial fearmongering regarding black men and white women left a slow fading stain on our national consciousness and does that stain affect even the liberalest of the liberal, the understandingest of the understanding? Yes. Is it getting better? Absolutely.
Are you as likely to encounter funny looks and derision in New York City as you are in Mobile, Alabama? Probably, although the tone will be different. At the end of the day, we are only forty years away from Loving v. Virginia. That is not an especially long time.
posted by kosem at 8:33 AM on May 31, 2007
If you picked an average white girl, between 18 and 25, single, and she was approached by a non-white person, would she view this differently from being approached by a white person? If she started dating this person, would she be branded as having a "type", with the "type" she likes being the ethnic group she is with?
I guess I'm an average white girl, though I'm outside your age range (I'm 32). It would depend on the approach, not on the race of the person. "Hey baby, want some of what I got?" wouldn't get a guy anywhere. It would also depend on the context. I don't want anyone approaching me at 11 pm on a bus stop. My friends wouldn't brand me in any way.
If you are in a club, and you observe a white girl being picked up by a black man, he kisses her and then leaves the club with her, would your internal reaction be the same as if the man were not black? Would you assume that this girl "prefers" black men?
As long as she leaves my fiance alone (who's white, btw), I don't give a rat's ass.
Do you make the distinction between shades of black?
No, this is ridiculous.
If your 15 year old daughter tended to hang out with a bunch of black guys her age, would that bother you?
If I had a 15 year old daughter, she wouldn't be hanging out with "a bunch of guys" of any race.
If Bill Clinton had a black wife, would this change your perception of him?
Do you mean if Hillary were black, or if his new wife had a different personality? If the former, then no, but if the latter, I'd say his taste in women had improved.
posted by desjardins at 8:35 AM on May 31, 2007
I guess I'm an average white girl, though I'm outside your age range (I'm 32). It would depend on the approach, not on the race of the person. "Hey baby, want some of what I got?" wouldn't get a guy anywhere. It would also depend on the context. I don't want anyone approaching me at 11 pm on a bus stop. My friends wouldn't brand me in any way.
If you are in a club, and you observe a white girl being picked up by a black man, he kisses her and then leaves the club with her, would your internal reaction be the same as if the man were not black? Would you assume that this girl "prefers" black men?
As long as she leaves my fiance alone (who's white, btw), I don't give a rat's ass.
Do you make the distinction between shades of black?
No, this is ridiculous.
If your 15 year old daughter tended to hang out with a bunch of black guys her age, would that bother you?
If I had a 15 year old daughter, she wouldn't be hanging out with "a bunch of guys" of any race.
If Bill Clinton had a black wife, would this change your perception of him?
Do you mean if Hillary were black, or if his new wife had a different personality? If the former, then no, but if the latter, I'd say his taste in women had improved.
posted by desjardins at 8:35 AM on May 31, 2007
I will say this. 10 years ago, seeing an interracial couple on the street would provoke a "huh, that's interesting. good for them." reaction from me. Seeing such a couple today barely registers in my consciousness.
posted by desjardins at 8:37 AM on May 31, 2007
posted by desjardins at 8:37 AM on May 31, 2007
can't really officially comment on the dating scene today, as i am currently involved in an interracial marriage. my wife and i did have a bartender ignore us once. kinda annoying, but it appears to be an isolated incident.
posted by lester at 8:47 AM on May 31, 2007
posted by lester at 8:47 AM on May 31, 2007
I think it depends where you live. In southern california I see it extremely regularly. But I understand its a bigger deal elsewhere.
Also personal preference will work in there somewhere too. Im white and I have nothing against black women, BUT Im very rarely attracted to them. Hispanic, Asian, Indian, Middle Eastern, and of course white women all work for me. My buddies and I have talked about this and we all seem to have a difference mix.
posted by Tinen at 8:47 AM on May 31, 2007
Also personal preference will work in there somewhere too. Im white and I have nothing against black women, BUT Im very rarely attracted to them. Hispanic, Asian, Indian, Middle Eastern, and of course white women all work for me. My buddies and I have talked about this and we all seem to have a difference mix.
posted by Tinen at 8:47 AM on May 31, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
In my experience people date interracially for all kinds of reasons, so it's kind of unfair to assume anyone's motivations.
posted by jonmc at 7:29 AM on May 31, 2007