Trouble pronouncing some Hindi characters.

May 24, 2007 10:27 AM

Devanagari / Hindi pronunciation question: help an (American) English speaker figure out some of the dental consonants.

(Examples with unicode characters follow. If you’re not set up for them, I’ve put an image of this question online here). Even after reading two different text descriptions and listening to a CD guide, I’m having trouble hacking the characters त/ थ (“ta / tha”) and द/ ध (“da / dha”). My understanding of the “dental” tongue positioning would lead me to believe that त(“ta”) sounds like English th in “thing” or “think,” and द (“da”) sounds like English th in “this” or “that” (where “tha” and “dha” are just more forcefully aspirated versions of the two).

Each of these suspicions gets some support from one text but not the other, and the CD I have is rather muddled (and I’m fresh out of native Hindi speakers at the moment). So, is my understanding about either of these, or both, correct? And if not, does either of the English “th” sounds exist in Devanagari? Which letter spells it?

posted by rkent to writing & language (15 comments total)

I am not a native speaker, but I know that English words are usually rendered using the retroflex versions of ta and tha for t or th.
posted by Methylviolet at 10:45 AM on May 24, 2007

Actually, all four a true stops. If it helps, the voiceless, unaspirated, dental stop (त) is probably more similar to Spanish "t". Your tongue should be a bit further forward than an AmEng "t" but not completely between your teeth.

The interdental fricatives ("th"an and "th"in) don't really exist in Hindi.

Methyviolet is right, English /t/ and /d/ sound more like the retroflex consonants.
posted by robabroad at 11:28 AM on May 24, 2007

you're on the right track about the ta and the tha sound.

The ta sound is the normal english "t" sound. The "tha" sound is the exact same thing, except start with your tongue touching your teeth.

It's a little more forceful than the "th" in thing, but the tongue positioning when you say "thing" is correct.

The da sound is the regular d sound.

The dha sound is the regular d sound, except more forceful, and you open your throat to create the "ha" ending.

Hope this helps.
posted by unexpected at 11:29 AM on May 24, 2007

Are you in Cambridge at the moment? Then you're hardly fresh out of native speakers, and FWIW a Punjabi or Urdu speaker could probably help.
posted by mds35 at 11:42 AM on May 24, 2007

Alao, there is no version of the English "th" sound in Hindi.
posted by mds35 at 11:44 AM on May 24, 2007

When Homer Simpson says "doh!" he is using the dha sound.
posted by mds35 at 11:45 AM on May 24, 2007

to pick up on some of the earlier responses,

robabroad is right there with the spanish "t" for (ta), while for (tha), i would go more with "thump", or "thunk" - the vowel 'i' after the "th" in thing of this, takes away from the extra emphasis the (tha) needs in this case.
posted by cusecase at 11:50 AM on May 24, 2007

I second mds35's implied suggestion that you find a native speaker. Most will be vaguely amused but probably willing to do these sounds for you and put them in context, describe what to do with your tongue, etc. When I was learning Hindi/Urdu I found it very helpful to literally watch people make these sounds with their mouths and I suggest you do the same. On tape/cd it can be a bit mystifying as to what exact "difference" the speaker is trying to demonstrate. Ultimately it's the difference between aspirating and not aspirating, but saying this doesn't help you until you figure out how to make your mouth do these sounds.

Once you've got them, though, rest assured you've got them. As I'm sure you know already, Devanagari is a very exact script and as such you can render the sounds very accurately once you know how to pronounce the 'letters' (unlike English!). Best to you.
posted by Mrs Hilksom at 12:23 PM on May 24, 2007

for (tha), i would go more with "thump", or "thunk"

What the hell are you talking about? There is nothing remotely like the English "th" (a voiceless
dental fricative) in any Indian language I know of. The "th" digraph in transliterated Indian languages is aspirated t (t + h), a completely different thing.
posted by languagehat at 12:49 PM on May 24, 2007

Fricatives! OK, I knew there was a name for those sounds but I had forgotten it.

And I acknowledge mds35 and Mrs Hilksom's suggestion that I find a native speaker... at the moment I don't know any in the area but of course it was flip to assert that there aren't any.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far.
posted by rkent at 1:20 PM on May 24, 2007

Indian, whose mother tongue is Hindi/Urdu.

My understanding of the “dental” tongue positioning would lead me to believe that त(“ta”) sounds like English th in “thing” or “think,”

Nope. Actually थ (tha) sounds exactly like 'th' in "thing" or "think" or "Thomas". Whereas त (ta) sounds like the 'th' in teeTH or youTH. Think of त as a थ (tha) minus the 'H' consonant/sound. Both the sounds of त/ थ come from the same position of tip of the tongue touching the inner lining of your dentures.

द/ ध (“da / dha”). goes the same way.
द (da) sounds like the 'th' in "this", and ध (dha) sounds as in DHarma (from DHarma & greg) or buDHha.

(where “tha” and “dha” are just more forcefully aspirated versions of the two).
Well yes, you can call them more forceful, but that extra 'H'(ha) sound in them is the key differentiator rather than the forceful-ness of it.


languagehat, I am not a linguist, so I don't understand the underlying technicalities and the terms that you are trying to explain here and hence I can't refute your explanation at that level, but with all due respect you are simply wrong here when you disagree with cusecase. If I were the violent types, I would've hereby declared a yudDh on you. :-)
posted by forwebsites at 2:25 AM on May 25, 2007

you're on the right track about the ta and the tha sound.
The ta sound is the normal english "t" sound. The "tha" sound is the exact same thing, except start with your tongue touching your teeth: ~ unexpected

Wrong. The regular 't' sound of English (as in "Time") is available in Hindi (or any language that uses Devnagiri script)
with this character ट, eg:as in टमाटर (tomatoes). It's corresponding version with the 'H'a sound is available in the character ठ eg: भेंठ (gift).
posted by forwebsites at 3:46 AM on May 25, 2007

Seconding forwebsites (I'm also a Hindi speaker, although my mother tongues are Tamil and Kannada). However, your use of Dharma and Buddha as examples are of limited utility since, in my experience, both these words are pronounced with hard d's in the US, instead of (what Hindi speakers would consider the correct) aspirated dhh sounds.

Also, Thomas is pronounced in the west with a hard t sound, as against in India where it is often (but not always) pronounced with a soft th sound.
posted by lassie at 5:49 AM on May 25, 2007

I wasn't going to chime in with this if someone could link to a Hindi syllabry website or something, but this is what I do: I stop random people on the street and ask them if they speak Hindi. They say, "no, I speak Kannada" (or whatever) or they say, "yes of course I speak Hindi, why would I not speak Hindi? I am Indian." Then I tell them I am learning Hindi and would they mind answering my quick question. In my experience, Hindi speakers, like Spanish speakers, think it's funny that you can't speak properly and will answer your question with great good humor. One of these days someone will be annoyed at being bothered by a stranger, but it has not happened yet.
posted by Methylviolet at 6:43 PM on May 25, 2007

Also, word of caution. Beware of the word for vacation if you don't have your consonants down. Mispronunciation could be disaster.
posted by mds35 at 3:36 PM on May 27, 2007