Is my poor truck worth anything to anyone?
May 22, 2007 8:45 AM Subscribe
Is my mechanically troubled '97 Ford Explorer completely worthless?
I'm the unfortunate owner of a 1997 Ford Explorer Sport with over 100k miles on it. Earlier this year I had been thinking of trading it in, as I don’t particularly enjoy it anymore, and it’s a beast on gas. Kelley Blue Book estimated its trade in value at about $2,500, assuming “good” condition.
In the past month or so it’s gone from “good” to really, really bad. The alternator and battery went, which I had replaced for about $500. While fixing that, the mechanic alerted me that the rear brakes were worn. They quoted me about $800 or so to fix this as well as some bushings that could use replacing. I didn’t have it fixed thinking (maybe incorrectly) that I could still trade it in and at least get the KBB “fair” estimate of $1900 or so.
Within a week of getting it back from the shop the check engine light came on (code P0430). The diagnosis was that the catalytic converter was clogged. The mechanic quoted me $1100 for parts and labor. In addition they noted that the belt pulley system / tensioner needed work too, to the tune of $300. Total cost of repairs including the breaks: $2200. That’s more than what it’s worth to me, not including the $500 I’ve already spent. Also, this doesn’t touch the other minor issues with the thing (a/c runs hot, rear wiper doesn’t work).
I’ve made the decision that it’s not worth fixing. These are just the latest in some rather expensive repairs over the past two years, including other emissions issues and the transmission. I really can’t see fixing it up just to trade it in, I'd much rather put the money towards something a bit newer, more fuel efficient, sensible, etc. So, my question is what to do with it now?
I hate to send it to the junk yard; it still runs fine and the exterior and interior are in great shape. I don’t know that selling to private party would work, as the thing definitely isn’t going to pass inspection. I’m not opposed to trying to sell it to a dealership or trade it in, but I’m afraid I’ll get laughed off of the lot. I’ve never traded anything in, so I’m not sure how much they’re going to care about its issues. I can see them ignoring the chirpy belts and occasional rattle; it's the bright yellow check engine light that worries me.
Am I missing any other options? Am I crazy for thinking I deserve any money for an aging, troubled truck?
Thanks in advance for any advice!
I'm the unfortunate owner of a 1997 Ford Explorer Sport with over 100k miles on it. Earlier this year I had been thinking of trading it in, as I don’t particularly enjoy it anymore, and it’s a beast on gas. Kelley Blue Book estimated its trade in value at about $2,500, assuming “good” condition.
In the past month or so it’s gone from “good” to really, really bad. The alternator and battery went, which I had replaced for about $500. While fixing that, the mechanic alerted me that the rear brakes were worn. They quoted me about $800 or so to fix this as well as some bushings that could use replacing. I didn’t have it fixed thinking (maybe incorrectly) that I could still trade it in and at least get the KBB “fair” estimate of $1900 or so.
Within a week of getting it back from the shop the check engine light came on (code P0430). The diagnosis was that the catalytic converter was clogged. The mechanic quoted me $1100 for parts and labor. In addition they noted that the belt pulley system / tensioner needed work too, to the tune of $300. Total cost of repairs including the breaks: $2200. That’s more than what it’s worth to me, not including the $500 I’ve already spent. Also, this doesn’t touch the other minor issues with the thing (a/c runs hot, rear wiper doesn’t work).
I’ve made the decision that it’s not worth fixing. These are just the latest in some rather expensive repairs over the past two years, including other emissions issues and the transmission. I really can’t see fixing it up just to trade it in, I'd much rather put the money towards something a bit newer, more fuel efficient, sensible, etc. So, my question is what to do with it now?
I hate to send it to the junk yard; it still runs fine and the exterior and interior are in great shape. I don’t know that selling to private party would work, as the thing definitely isn’t going to pass inspection. I’m not opposed to trying to sell it to a dealership or trade it in, but I’m afraid I’ll get laughed off of the lot. I’ve never traded anything in, so I’m not sure how much they’re going to care about its issues. I can see them ignoring the chirpy belts and occasional rattle; it's the bright yellow check engine light that worries me.
Am I missing any other options? Am I crazy for thinking I deserve any money for an aging, troubled truck?
Thanks in advance for any advice!
Alternator and battery should be an hour plus parts, and even at dealership labor rates, 500 sounds like robbery. Rear brakes should be 150, 200 tops. A bolt-in cat replacement shouldn't be more than 3 or 400. They already played with the belt and pulley "system" when they replaced your alternator.
I'm not saying the car's not a piece of crap. I'm just saying the prices you mentioned sound way out of whack to me.
posted by notsnot at 9:05 AM on May 22, 2007
I'm not saying the car's not a piece of crap. I'm just saying the prices you mentioned sound way out of whack to me.
posted by notsnot at 9:05 AM on May 22, 2007
..and I meant to follow that up with, a lot of shops (still) are rather sexist. I hate to suggest this, as it sounds sexist *of*me*, but take along a burly guy friend to go along with you next time you go to *any* shop, not the one that's been quoting you prices like that.
posted by notsnot at 9:07 AM on May 22, 2007
posted by notsnot at 9:07 AM on May 22, 2007
Best answer: Comments:
1. Find a new mechanic. $500 for an alternator and battery is about 2x what it should have been (at the most.)
2. You won't get more than $2000 trade in on it, period. Anything higher than that will just be tacked on to the price of your new vehicle.
3. $500 for *rear* brakes is, again, asinine. *Maybe* $60 per drum, $40 a side for pads, and a labor time of under 2 hours (should be more like 45 minutes if he's skilled). These are so easy you could do them yourself.
4. $1100 for a catalytic converter replacement is really really dumb. They're going to buy a new one ($80-$200), cut out the old one and weld in the new one. Depending on where you're from, you could get someone to cut it out and weld in a chunk of exhaust pipe and be just fine.
Solutions (imo)
1. Go to Advance/PepBoys/any chain parts store. They'll let you borrow an OBDII scanner. Plug it in and turn off the engine fault light.
2. Proceed directly to any given car lot. Do not pass go, and do not provide any extraneous disclosure about your vehicle, OTHER than that it's got a brand new battery and alternator. (A good wrench woulda changed the water pump while he was in there...)
3. Smile if you get $1000-2000 trade in. I'd argue for $1800.
posted by TomMelee at 9:12 AM on May 22, 2007
1. Find a new mechanic. $500 for an alternator and battery is about 2x what it should have been (at the most.)
2. You won't get more than $2000 trade in on it, period. Anything higher than that will just be tacked on to the price of your new vehicle.
3. $500 for *rear* brakes is, again, asinine. *Maybe* $60 per drum, $40 a side for pads, and a labor time of under 2 hours (should be more like 45 minutes if he's skilled). These are so easy you could do them yourself.
4. $1100 for a catalytic converter replacement is really really dumb. They're going to buy a new one ($80-$200), cut out the old one and weld in the new one. Depending on where you're from, you could get someone to cut it out and weld in a chunk of exhaust pipe and be just fine.
Solutions (imo)
1. Go to Advance/PepBoys/any chain parts store. They'll let you borrow an OBDII scanner. Plug it in and turn off the engine fault light.
2. Proceed directly to any given car lot. Do not pass go, and do not provide any extraneous disclosure about your vehicle, OTHER than that it's got a brand new battery and alternator. (A good wrench woulda changed the water pump while he was in there...)
3. Smile if you get $1000-2000 trade in. I'd argue for $1800.
posted by TomMelee at 9:12 AM on May 22, 2007
Yeah, I'm getting lots of red flags from this mechanic (it sounds like the poster is using the same one repeatedly). I work on my own cars a lot, and I can say that with auto repair, shops are just completely all over the spectrum: a few good ones, a lot of honest but incompetent ones, and some real slimeballs. I believe the Car Talk website has a decent mechanic database that might help, with the usual caveats of watching out for shills and axe-grinders.
Basically you have no idea where you stand as far as repairs on this vehicle until you try a couple of other mechanics.
posted by zek at 9:43 AM on May 22, 2007
Basically you have no idea where you stand as far as repairs on this vehicle until you try a couple of other mechanics.
posted by zek at 9:43 AM on May 22, 2007
Honestly, I don't think your exploder sounds like it's in all that bad condition. Brakes, mufflers and alternators do wear out, and it sucks that it's all happening at the same time for you. But at 100k, if it's been taken care of, the motor should have at least another 50k in her, if not another 100.
I agree with the other posters that your mechanic is overcharging you, and I do think you should trade it in for a more sensible vehicle, but don't undersell it. Wash it up, get the brakes fixed if they make obvious noise, and get the codes cleared. If you're buying a used car, you'll probably get at least $2k, if not more for it from a dealer. The dealer wants to move their units, and even if they only sell the Ford at auction for $2,100, they've still sold you a nice, overpriced used car!
Furthermore, I'd lay odds that the catalytic converter issue is caused by a fouled sensor, unless you're burning a hell of a lot of oil.
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 9:54 AM on May 22, 2007
I agree with the other posters that your mechanic is overcharging you, and I do think you should trade it in for a more sensible vehicle, but don't undersell it. Wash it up, get the brakes fixed if they make obvious noise, and get the codes cleared. If you're buying a used car, you'll probably get at least $2k, if not more for it from a dealer. The dealer wants to move their units, and even if they only sell the Ford at auction for $2,100, they've still sold you a nice, overpriced used car!
Furthermore, I'd lay odds that the catalytic converter issue is caused by a fouled sensor, unless you're burning a hell of a lot of oil.
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 9:54 AM on May 22, 2007
Response by poster: Thanks for the advice so far!
I was pretty sure I was overcharged for the alternator and battery, thanks for confirming. I also knew the quotes for the other things were at the very least on the high side, which is half the reason I didn't let them do anything further. Rest assured, I will never go back there. Yes all of the quotes were the same shop, I only took it back there because I thought maybe the check engine light was somehow related to the repairs they had just done.
I'm feeling slightly better about my prospects - if I could get even close to $2000 I'd be thrilled. So, the consensus seems to be that it is worth getting at least a second opinion on the catalytic converter to get rid of the check engine light? (The breaks sound fine, btw.) It doesn't seem to be burning any oil, is there any other easy way of checking if it's a faulty sensor?
I happen to know someone who happens to have an OBDII scanner, and he's offered to do what you mentioned TomMelee. Is there any risk of getting caught doing this? I realize dealerships aren't the most honest people in the world, so I don't mind slipping one past them, but not if they're going to come after me later?
posted by sarahmelah at 10:37 AM on May 22, 2007
I was pretty sure I was overcharged for the alternator and battery, thanks for confirming. I also knew the quotes for the other things were at the very least on the high side, which is half the reason I didn't let them do anything further. Rest assured, I will never go back there. Yes all of the quotes were the same shop, I only took it back there because I thought maybe the check engine light was somehow related to the repairs they had just done.
I'm feeling slightly better about my prospects - if I could get even close to $2000 I'd be thrilled. So, the consensus seems to be that it is worth getting at least a second opinion on the catalytic converter to get rid of the check engine light? (The breaks sound fine, btw.) It doesn't seem to be burning any oil, is there any other easy way of checking if it's a faulty sensor?
I happen to know someone who happens to have an OBDII scanner, and he's offered to do what you mentioned TomMelee. Is there any risk of getting caught doing this? I realize dealerships aren't the most honest people in the world, so I don't mind slipping one past them, but not if they're going to come after me later?
posted by sarahmelah at 10:37 AM on May 22, 2007
There is a reason these are nicknamed "Ford Exploders." Even if you get everything fixed at a reasonable price, more things are going to break, so you have to figure out the average cost of repairs each month (including lost time at the mechanics) vs. the cost of a new car.
You may find someone looking for a project car and be able to sell it "as-is" on craigslist.
posted by craniac at 10:38 AM on May 22, 2007
You may find someone looking for a project car and be able to sell it "as-is" on craigslist.
posted by craniac at 10:38 AM on May 22, 2007
but take along a burly guy friend to go along with you next time you go to *any* shop
notsnot, you are dead on right about some shops having differing prices by gender. I've had people try to sell me on a $1500 repair when all I needed was a $40 repair at a different shop.
The problem is very real, but I don't feel your solution is the way to go. There isn't always a burly guy availible to go to the shop with you, especially if you are traveling, and some unscrupulous people are also unscrupulous to men. Some shops are just plain incompetent and actually think the right course of action involves replacing parts until you find the one that went bad.
The solution is to compare prices and try to learn what you can about your car. There are mechanics out there who are knowledgeable, honest, and will give you a fair price.
Get a second and maybe even a third opinion on the repairs, or follow the other advice in this thread to get the check engine light off. If you can sell it where it won't need to pass inspection, the catalytic converter can be removed altogether and replaced with a straight pipe.
posted by yohko at 10:54 AM on May 22, 2007
notsnot, you are dead on right about some shops having differing prices by gender. I've had people try to sell me on a $1500 repair when all I needed was a $40 repair at a different shop.
The problem is very real, but I don't feel your solution is the way to go. There isn't always a burly guy availible to go to the shop with you, especially if you are traveling, and some unscrupulous people are also unscrupulous to men. Some shops are just plain incompetent and actually think the right course of action involves replacing parts until you find the one that went bad.
The solution is to compare prices and try to learn what you can about your car. There are mechanics out there who are knowledgeable, honest, and will give you a fair price.
Get a second and maybe even a third opinion on the repairs, or follow the other advice in this thread to get the check engine light off. If you can sell it where it won't need to pass inspection, the catalytic converter can be removed altogether and replaced with a straight pipe.
posted by yohko at 10:54 AM on May 22, 2007
Best answer: You're not doing anything unscrupulous by clearing your own engine codes. On new cars, they come on at specific intervals just to make you take your car in for service---often charging you like $150 just to plug in the computer and tell you that it's time to change your plug wires.
Simple way to tell if your catalytic converter is messed up:
It'll smell hurrrrrrible
Your gas mileage will (depending on the problem) go way UP (if all the guts somehow fall out), or go way DOWN (if it gets clogged)
Also, if it gets clogged, your acceleration will go down too.
Before you trade in any car, it's a good idea to wash it, try to at least dampen any hurrible noises, and clear engine codes.
Heck, about 18 months ago I traded in a '94 trooper w/ bent push rods (making it go CLACKACLACKACLACKA) and told the salesman it was the timing chain. (Funny, because it has a timing BELT, not a timing chain.)
They're going to sell it at auction anyway, probably for about $800-$1500 at most.
posted by TomMelee at 11:11 AM on May 22, 2007
Simple way to tell if your catalytic converter is messed up:
It'll smell hurrrrrrible
Your gas mileage will (depending on the problem) go way UP (if all the guts somehow fall out), or go way DOWN (if it gets clogged)
Also, if it gets clogged, your acceleration will go down too.
Before you trade in any car, it's a good idea to wash it, try to at least dampen any hurrible noises, and clear engine codes.
Heck, about 18 months ago I traded in a '94 trooper w/ bent push rods (making it go CLACKACLACKACLACKA) and told the salesman it was the timing chain. (Funny, because it has a timing BELT, not a timing chain.)
They're going to sell it at auction anyway, probably for about $800-$1500 at most.
posted by TomMelee at 11:11 AM on May 22, 2007
Here's my advice to you.
#1: even if this car is a complete and utter disaster, you can always part it out (selling pieces to other folks) on eBay or Craigslist or a forum dedicated to these trucks, before you send it to the junk yard.
#2: if the transmission, engine and unibody are in good shape, then the car's not junk -- it's just junk to you, because you don't work on cars yourself. Honestly, $500 for a battery and alternator? $300 for a new pulley tensioner? $800 for REAR brakes? Holy gee, those are rip-off prices, pure and simple -- either your mechanic has balls the size of your truck, or you're taking it to the dealer for repairs, which means $$$$$ for repairs that should cost $$, because they generally cater to people who don't know better.
If I were you, here's what I'd do.
a. Take it to a muffler and brake shop and ask them to do a free inspection. Then go to another shop and do the same. Don't tell them what's wrong with it; tell 'em your neighbor wants to sell it to you, and you want to know if there's anything wrong with the brake or exhaust systems/how much it will cost to fix.
b. At this age, you would do well to have the fluids changed (antifreeze, transmission, and top off the A/C freon or equivalent) in addition to an oil/filter change, spark plugs, distributor cap and rotor (if so equipped), belts (timing and fan)...basically all the straightforward maintenance stuff. THIS will cost you several hundred dollars, so get an estimate first; based on the quotes from the muffler/brake shops (if there's anything wrong at all) and the estimate for this all-over maintenance, THEN you'll be set to decide whether it's worth it to keep it.
By the way, as far as what it's "worth" to do to fix it, that's really something you can only judge by considering this: if you buy a new car, you'll suffer far more than $2000 worth of depreciation in the first year. Therefore, you're not talking about "do I put more money into this car than it's worth, or buy a new one", but rather "do I put more money into this car than it's worth, or buy a new one and lose even more money, but have a nicer car that's under warranty?"
I personally have a '93 Mazda with incredibly low miles (from my dad, who bought it new) -- and even though it's only worth $1600 or so, I just put in $700 and will be putting in more, to keep it a reliable and enjoyable car, because the alternative is to buy a new car that isn't paid off, and throw that money out the window through depreciation. But I can make this decision knowing the entire history and condition of the car.
If you bought that explorer new and you've been happy (and it's been reliable), you're better off putting the money into repairing and maintaining it (with a better mechanic, though) than buying a new car. If you don't like the car much, or you don't know the entire history of the car's treatment and condition, or you would rather have a predictable monthly payment and a car under warranty, do that -- but I guarantee you can find a buyer for your car as-is without too much trouble, and for a lot more than a dealer will offer you.
posted by davejay at 11:59 AM on May 22, 2007
#1: even if this car is a complete and utter disaster, you can always part it out (selling pieces to other folks) on eBay or Craigslist or a forum dedicated to these trucks, before you send it to the junk yard.
#2: if the transmission, engine and unibody are in good shape, then the car's not junk -- it's just junk to you, because you don't work on cars yourself. Honestly, $500 for a battery and alternator? $300 for a new pulley tensioner? $800 for REAR brakes? Holy gee, those are rip-off prices, pure and simple -- either your mechanic has balls the size of your truck, or you're taking it to the dealer for repairs, which means $$$$$ for repairs that should cost $$, because they generally cater to people who don't know better.
If I were you, here's what I'd do.
a. Take it to a muffler and brake shop and ask them to do a free inspection. Then go to another shop and do the same. Don't tell them what's wrong with it; tell 'em your neighbor wants to sell it to you, and you want to know if there's anything wrong with the brake or exhaust systems/how much it will cost to fix.
b. At this age, you would do well to have the fluids changed (antifreeze, transmission, and top off the A/C freon or equivalent) in addition to an oil/filter change, spark plugs, distributor cap and rotor (if so equipped), belts (timing and fan)...basically all the straightforward maintenance stuff. THIS will cost you several hundred dollars, so get an estimate first; based on the quotes from the muffler/brake shops (if there's anything wrong at all) and the estimate for this all-over maintenance, THEN you'll be set to decide whether it's worth it to keep it.
By the way, as far as what it's "worth" to do to fix it, that's really something you can only judge by considering this: if you buy a new car, you'll suffer far more than $2000 worth of depreciation in the first year. Therefore, you're not talking about "do I put more money into this car than it's worth, or buy a new one", but rather "do I put more money into this car than it's worth, or buy a new one and lose even more money, but have a nicer car that's under warranty?"
I personally have a '93 Mazda with incredibly low miles (from my dad, who bought it new) -- and even though it's only worth $1600 or so, I just put in $700 and will be putting in more, to keep it a reliable and enjoyable car, because the alternative is to buy a new car that isn't paid off, and throw that money out the window through depreciation. But I can make this decision knowing the entire history and condition of the car.
If you bought that explorer new and you've been happy (and it's been reliable), you're better off putting the money into repairing and maintaining it (with a better mechanic, though) than buying a new car. If you don't like the car much, or you don't know the entire history of the car's treatment and condition, or you would rather have a predictable monthly payment and a car under warranty, do that -- but I guarantee you can find a buyer for your car as-is without too much trouble, and for a lot more than a dealer will offer you.
posted by davejay at 11:59 AM on May 22, 2007
Note: don't tell stories to your mechanics unless they ask, and keep it brief -- don't tell a tangled web. You just want them to be brutally honest with you about the condition, and if they think you don't own the car, they'll be more likely to be helpful. However, they might charge you a bit of money since you don't own the car; personally I think that's fine, but if you really want the inspection to be free, just tell them the truth.
posted by davejay at 12:01 PM on May 22, 2007
posted by davejay at 12:01 PM on May 22, 2007
the truth about you owning it and deciding whether or not to keep it; DO NOT tell them about the previous repair quotes you've gotten!
posted by davejay at 12:02 PM on May 22, 2007
posted by davejay at 12:02 PM on May 22, 2007
Can you donate it to goodwill? I believe you get a tax credit for vehicle donations. But I don't know if they have some requirements for the condition of the car.
posted by media_itoku at 12:32 PM on May 22, 2007
posted by media_itoku at 12:32 PM on May 22, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
I've seen some similar vehicles taken in on trades. However, this obviously this depends on the individual dealer. Whatever you do don't spend the money to fix it, it will never be worth KBB "fair" or "good" at that age or mileage no matter what works.
posted by HoldFast at 8:59 AM on May 22, 2007