Comments on: Can I get a get?

Question: Can I get a get?

Mavri — Thu, 17 May 2007 11:09:01 -0800

What does "bais din tzedek umishpot" mean and why is it posted in a courthouse?

On the first floor of the civil court building in Brooklyn, NY, there is a sign posted next to the elevators with these words. Googling the whole phrase turned up nothing, but googling the individual words reveal that bais din is a rabbinical court, and tzedek umishpot is righteousness and justice. Is there a rabbinical court at 141 Livingston Street? If so, that seems a little weird from a separation of church and state standpoint.

By: grouse

grouse — Thu, 17 May 2007 11:17:20 -0800

A beit din is a "house of judgment." So this is a house of judgment, righteousness, and justice.

Is there a rabbinical court at 141 Livingston Street?

You'll notice that nothing that sounds like "rabbi" appears in that phrase, so probably not.

By: blue_beetle

blue_beetle — Thu, 17 May 2007 11:17:42 -0800

"tzedek umishpot" is hebrew, and it means Justice and Judgement. Perhaps someone else can do the full-translation.

By: blue_beetle

blue_beetle — Thu, 17 May 2007 11:18:20 -0800

On preview: I guess I should have read the question. d'oh!

By: amro

amro — Thu, 17 May 2007 11:19:32 -0800

grouse, a bet din is a rabbinical court. The word rabbi doesn't need to appear in the phrase for that to be so.

By: amro

amro — Thu, 17 May 2007 11:20:08 -0800

(See the first sentence of your Wikipedia link.)

By: limeonaire

limeonaire — Thu, 17 May 2007 11:32:00 -0800

From allpages.com:

Bais Din Tzedek Umishpot Inc
141 Livingston
Brooklyn, NY 11201-5133
(718) 222-5252

Perhaps the sign by the elevators is referring to a company/rabbinical law office/something similar that you take that particular elevator to get to?

It does seem odd that this is in the Brooklyn civil court building, though—unless the landlord (hypothetically, given a non-governmental landlord) rents space to other legal offices, not just the court. I don't know if that's normal, though—does that ever even occur, that a local court is located in a building owned by someone other than the government? Or would the government rent out space in a court building to legal offices or rabbinical courts?

Anyway, if I were you, I'd call the number and see what I could find out.

(I'd call, but I'm at work.)

By: damn dirty ape

damn dirty ape — Thu, 17 May 2007 11:32:35 -0800

If so, that seems a little weird from a separation of church and state standpoint.

No its not. Not in the US at least. There's all sorts of "In God We Trust" and other religious items pastered in or around court-house buildings. There's at least one courthouse with a 10 commandments plaque up. In court they still have people swearing on holy books.

This kind of thing is more common and accepted than you might think.

By: grobstein

grobstein — Thu, 17 May 2007 11:34:43 -0800

(See the first sentence of your Wikipedia link.)

What this same first sentence tells us is that there's a slight divergence between literal meaning and traditional usage (whodathunkit). Given the literal meaning of "house of judgment", the civil court officials could permissibly have decided to repurpose the phrase away from it's traditional connotation of rabbinical court and use it as an auspicious label for their own court, even though their court is not religious.

Doesn't it seem like that's what's going on here?

By: grobstein

grobstein — Thu, 17 May 2007 11:35:22 -0800

Sorry, should have previewed. Please ignore =P.

By: grouse

grouse — Thu, 17 May 2007 11:51:39 -0800

amro, I know what a beit din is. Based on the original description, I interpreted the use of the two words like grobstein did. But it seems limeonaire is onto something more likely.

By: Partial Law

Partial Law — Thu, 17 May 2007 11:53:09 -0800

Defendant has submitted the affidavit of Thomas J. Lotito, Coordinator, Department of Facilities Management, New York State Office of Court Administration, who is responsible for planning and leasing court facilities for the Unified Court System. Lotito states that 141 Livingston Street is a privately owned building wherein space is leased for the Civil Court. Verdejo v. New York

So it looks like limeonaire's guess is correct. The court appears to be only one of multiple tenants in a private building.

By: Mavri

Mavri — Thu, 17 May 2007 12:47:57 -0800

Yes, it looks like it's a private building. I knew there were floors I'd never been to, but just figured they were court offices or personnel or something.

dda: I grew up in Texas, so I'm well aware of the ways that god intrudes into places it shouldn't be. However, if it weren't a private building and the state was somehow supporting the imposition of a particular religious law (rather than the display of it), that would be quite different than the In God We Trust signs. (And people can affirm instead of swearing on a Bible.) Regardless, that's not what's going on here, and I thank everyone for their detective work.

By: JaredSeth

JaredSeth — Thu, 17 May 2007 12:53:52 -0800

Partial Law beat me to it, but I just looked up the address on Property Shark, and it looks like some Berkshire Equity group actually owns the building (or they will when it's not the property of Independence Savings Bank anymore).

By: hexatron

hexatron — Thu, 17 May 2007 14:40:45 -0800

(Knowledge-free interpretation)
It is probably a business (perhaps non-profit) to conveniently allow Jews to get a religious divorce when they get a civil divorce decree.

By: kingjoeshmoe

kingjoeshmoe — Thu, 17 May 2007 16:02:16 -0800

Beis sounds like it's an ashkenazi form of "Beit", which means "House of". So working off of Blue Beetle, we have:

House of Justice and Judgement

By: KRS

KRS — Fri, 18 May 2007 10:14:53 -0800

When Orthodox Jews divorce, under Jewish religious law the husband must free her from the marriage vows before she can remarry.

Jewish divorces can be as acrimonious as any, and ex-husbands often withheld this release.

A bet din is a court-style proceeding presided over by rabbis and other important men of the community. It that can order the husband to provide the release.

In New York, the husband can be ordered by a regular court to participate in a bet din. These are often held in a state courthouse.