Help me find a PA system

April 25, 2007 4:23 AM

What kind of PA system would I use for a semi-acoustic musical group performing in a small room?

I need to provide a PA setup for a group consisting of an electric piano, drums, acoustic guitar and 2 vocalists performing in a small room to approximately 30 people. Musicians will bring their own instruments but no amplifiers. What kind of equipment should I be looking for? Would piano, guitar and vocals each need their own separate amplifiers or is there an all in one PA system I can buy that would accommodate all instruments and vocals and still deliver good sound.

I've been googling and came across this
Phonic Power Pod. Could I just use this with a pair of speakers and mics?

posted by gfrobe to technology (11 comments total)

Damn, forgot to mention.. would the setup differ if I wanted the mics to be wireless?
posted by gfrobe at 4:30 AM on April 25, 2007

I've dealt with a good bit in this area for party's and music groups. I can give brand names which I trust, but any thing in this area can get expensive and it will.

First, I wouldn't get a power-mixer (mixer with built-in amp). Go with a 12-16 channel yamaha mixer. Pioneer or dbx graphics/compressor/delay. CROWN amps--i love those things--you'd probably only need a 1200 or 800 (I always suggest going over the top--2 800 amps would be great!).

Microphones and speakers: brand name!
Shure 58 microphones (around $99--you can always find them on sale generally for that) are the best vocal mics you can find. The Shure 57's are great instrumental mics. Shure also has a lot of wireless mics, but are high in the dollar department--58's is all you need to start with and go from there.
Speakers--JBL are amazing!!! Peavy's are also great--SP-2 in particular. Either one of those will be good--the great thing about the Peavy's are that you can get 2 SP-2 sets--come with a 15" sub and horn--that will provide the low, mid, and high. With our set up we use the peavy's only for something like you want, and for bigger parties we use them as the Mid's and JBL scoops and horns for the highs and lows.

The reason why I suggest these brand names--my dad started out in sound and I've picked it up from him. He's had this yamaha mixer and a lot of this other equipment in these brand names that's much older than I am (22) and this stuff still sounds great and we use it a lot!

Samples of stuff we use this for--church gatherings, b-day parties, bluegrass festivals, parades.
You can use these for anything.

Hope this helps; email me if you have any more specific questions or would like more help.

Don't forget--Shure mics, JBL or Peavy speakers!
posted by uncballzer at 6:01 AM on April 25, 2007

You could, technically, use that Mixer/Head you linked, with a couple of mics and be happy. I'm not sure that I would, however.

Personally, this is how I'd do it - (uncbalizer has it pretty much right)

Don't mic the drums. Just don't.
Does the guitar have a direct out? If so, I'd get a DI (direct injection) box, and plug the guitar in through that. If not, I'd probably mic it with a SM-57.
For the vocals, SM-58s.
For the electric piano, another DI box.

Ideally, I'd go into a small mixer, like a Mackie 1604, out into a decent amp (Crowns are reasonable), and use some decent speakers. However, if you're set on an all-in-one PA, I've used the Fender Passport PA before. It doesn't sound like total crap.
(Oh shoot, I'm not sure they sell it in the UK - I'm sure there's something similar.)

To make your life much easier, make sure the speakers are out in front of the mics. The last thing you want to be dealing with is feedback issues.

Also, you can rent all of this stuff much cheaper than you can buy it, at least initially. Is this a one-time gig, or is it continuing? Personally, I'd head out to my nearest audio rental place, and ask them to help me out.
posted by god hates math at 6:50 AM on April 25, 2007

Many of the 'brand names' have self-powered speakers that aren't bad. JBL in particular makes some decent ones.

I'd say if the band doesn't have anyone to do setup for them that you'd want to stay away from having to have a rack for power amps, as they are heavy, bulky and, well, another piece of gear to hump.

My father's band frequently plays with two powered JBL speakers to groups of more than 100, although my professional opinion is that number is pushing it a bit. I deal mostly with corporate events, not entertainment sound, but still.

God hates math makes an excellent point about rental. Many rental companies work on a 10:1 rental/buy ratio - in other words, to rent a piece of equipment is usually 1/10th the cost of buying it. If you plan on using a piece of gear more than 10 times in one year, buy it. If fewer, rent it.

Lastly, is this going to be mixed by the band, or by an engineer at the FOH (front of house) position? If the latter, your cabling will need to include a snake.

Here's my list:
Shure mics (wired or wireless)
12-16 channel mixer from Mackie, Behringer, Yamaha, etc.
Two powered speakers and stands.
Cabling.
DI box for the keyboard and mic for the guitar.
Mic Stands
posted by tomierna at 9:00 AM on April 25, 2007

Thanks for info everyone. Is there a big difference in sound between using an amp and powered speakers? Also curious why use of the mixer/head is discouraged. Is that a sound issue as well?

I would be using this setup regularly (it's for a class) so would need to purchase rather than rent.
posted by gfrobe at 9:18 AM on April 25, 2007

I see you're in the UK, so I'll link to a random UK pro audio site I found via google. I can't vouch for the store, but the brand's I'll recommend are ones that have served me well over the last 10+ years.
I'd go with:

Shure SM58's for vocals, there's a reason that they're basically the industry standard. If you want to spend the extra cash and go wireless, Shure has plenty of options.

If the guitar is straight acoustic and not acoustic/electric, then add an SM57.
If it is acoustic/electric, then you just need a get a DI-Box for it.

The piano will also need a DI, but your drums will not need to be run through the system in so small a setting. I'd recommend having your drummer use some of these sticks. They're quieter than normal sticks, but still give a pretty solid sound, unlike brushes.

Toss in mic stands and speaker stand.

And now we get to the board and speakers. For your application, which I understand as a classroom of 30 listeners, you could get away with a Yamaha powered head and a couple EV passive cabinets. This would be a better set up if you're going to be running sound yourself from the stage.

However, if you're going to have a dedicated person running the board from somewhere else in the room, then I'd go with a good passive mixer. Being in the UK, you can probably get a much better deal on an Allen & Heath than we can in North America. Match the board with a pair of powered JBLs.

To set the mixer up away from the stage, you'll need a snake, unless you're really keen on running a whole lot of long cables. You should be able to find a nice small one at another store, 8 sends and 2 returns would be adequate.

Don't forget the rest of your cables, XLRs for mics and DI boxes, 1/4" for the DI boxes, and Either Speakon or XLR for the speakers, for the powered or passive mixer, respectively.

I'm sure I've missed something in that setup, so triple check everything before the first performance!

For some tips on mixing, Soundcraft has some free pdf tutorials for setting up and running a PA. Shure offers a wealth of documentation on mic useage and placement, as well as some general PA guides.

Best of Luck!
posted by jjb at 10:19 AM on April 25, 2007

Something like this is more than sufficient for your needs. Yamaha is good gear - so is JBL, Mackie, Peavey and others.
posted by wsg at 10:20 AM on April 25, 2007

(My experience is more from DJ/electronic music than live music, but I have years of it.)

I personally despise the way Yamaha speakers sound, but it may just be preference. I'm not a huge fan of EV either. Both tend to sound very harsh to me. (for passive speakers I like the 3-way JBL SRX, EAW, and Turbosound. I have expensive taste. Don't even even price the latter two.)

The Mackie SRM-450s will likely treat you well, and even two would be overkill for the size you're talking about. I disliked the old JBL powered EONs, but the newer ones are pretty good.

I wouldn't bother with separate amp/speakers at your size, it's not worth the overhead at the level you're talking about. Plus it incurs the additional expense, hassle, and WEIGHT of speaker cables alongside signal cables. And, since you're new to this, it's much easier to make self-powered speakers sound decent.

For a mixing board I'd go with a smallish mackie. They're not the best sounding in the world, but they're tough as nails. Allen & Heath generally sounds great, but I think you could throw a mackie 1400 series down a flight of stairs without hurting it. Don't discount attrition costs, even with good pro gear. I've spent thousands on repair and replacement over the years.

Speaking of costs, don't forget to budget for cables. They're a not insignificant part of the cost of a sound system, even if you don't need speaker cables. Get more than you think you need. Not being able to hook something up because you're missing a cable or one flaked on you is teh suck.
posted by flaterik at 11:39 AM on April 25, 2007

Unless your musicians bring their own in ear monitors, you'll probably be expected to provide them with one or two monitors (speakers which face the band), to help them hear each other and the overall mix, so they can stay together. Here's a page that discusses the pros and cons of both.
posted by paulsc at 9:48 PM on April 25, 2007

You prolly won't need monitors on such a small gig. Just angle the speakers in a little where the musicians can hear them.
posted by wsg at 12:27 AM on April 26, 2007

Thanks all!
posted by gfrobe at 12:57 AM on April 26, 2007