Neighbor troubles
April 21, 2007 1:12 PM Subscribe
How do you deal with a five year old child who breaks your stuff when his parents think he never does anything wrong and how dare you think otherwise, and than smack the door in your face?
We recently moved to a new city. We live in a neighborhood with many kids. One of the kids (5yo) likes my daughter (3yo) and my daughter likes him. He is a bit a rough kid, a typical boy I guess. He is a sweet kid, but sometimes a bit too agressive with the toys. He likes to break everything. He sometimes breaks something smallish (a ball or a jumping rope) We told him that we thought that that was such a waste, but did not tell his parents. Today, however, he took two quite expensive cars that belong to my husband outside and disassembled them and broke them. They are not repairable. We did not see that he actually did this, but there was no other kid who could have taken them from our house. my daughter came in to tell that he had broken the cars and he hid himself, and he is the only kid that consistently breaks other children's stuff. (he was not here on a play date, he just waited until my daughter was ready to come play outside). Also, I am quite convinced that my daughter had no reason at all to lie about this.
We talked about it, and my husband decided to talk to the parents tonight. Not to blame the boy (he is only five), but we thought they should know, since we would want to know if our daughter had done something like this as well. That was, appearantly, not a good idea. The mother was very angry, told that everybody always blames her son, that it was probably our own daughter, etc. She then smashed the door in his face. (She also accused my husband that he conveniently waited until the father of the boy was away because the father was already furious that we dared to accuse the boy. We had no idea what she was talking about. We cannot see when they leave their house, we just waited until after dinner.).
This upsets me. It is important to me to have good contact with the neighbors and we all love this street because there are so many children here. The children all love to play in our front garden, so I see them and their parents regularly. The boy is not allowed to come play here anymore (his parents did not want him too either) but I will still see them on a daily basis.
To be clear: I am totally not blaming the boy. He is five. Breaking things is what five year old boys (sometimes) do. He did not know it was an expensive car and he does not have a clear notion of property yet, I guess. But I do feel that he should learn all those things. That's what parents are for, right?
How should we deal with this? Any hope to talk it out? Just accept that some people will not like you? Were we actually unreasonable in bringing the matter up?
We recently moved to a new city. We live in a neighborhood with many kids. One of the kids (5yo) likes my daughter (3yo) and my daughter likes him. He is a bit a rough kid, a typical boy I guess. He is a sweet kid, but sometimes a bit too agressive with the toys. He likes to break everything. He sometimes breaks something smallish (a ball or a jumping rope) We told him that we thought that that was such a waste, but did not tell his parents. Today, however, he took two quite expensive cars that belong to my husband outside and disassembled them and broke them. They are not repairable. We did not see that he actually did this, but there was no other kid who could have taken them from our house. my daughter came in to tell that he had broken the cars and he hid himself, and he is the only kid that consistently breaks other children's stuff. (he was not here on a play date, he just waited until my daughter was ready to come play outside). Also, I am quite convinced that my daughter had no reason at all to lie about this.
We talked about it, and my husband decided to talk to the parents tonight. Not to blame the boy (he is only five), but we thought they should know, since we would want to know if our daughter had done something like this as well. That was, appearantly, not a good idea. The mother was very angry, told that everybody always blames her son, that it was probably our own daughter, etc. She then smashed the door in his face. (She also accused my husband that he conveniently waited until the father of the boy was away because the father was already furious that we dared to accuse the boy. We had no idea what she was talking about. We cannot see when they leave their house, we just waited until after dinner.).
This upsets me. It is important to me to have good contact with the neighbors and we all love this street because there are so many children here. The children all love to play in our front garden, so I see them and their parents regularly. The boy is not allowed to come play here anymore (his parents did not want him too either) but I will still see them on a daily basis.
To be clear: I am totally not blaming the boy. He is five. Breaking things is what five year old boys (sometimes) do. He did not know it was an expensive car and he does not have a clear notion of property yet, I guess. But I do feel that he should learn all those things. That's what parents are for, right?
How should we deal with this? Any hope to talk it out? Just accept that some people will not like you? Were we actually unreasonable in bringing the matter up?
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's request. -- goodnewsfortheinsane
Hmmm, sounds to me like just passing it off as "some people will not like you" is best. It's true that he should learn to respect other people's property, but I don't think that it's really anyone but the parent's call to make. There doesn't seem to be much else that you can do about the situation.
I wouldn't worry about being unreasonable in bringing the matter up; I don't think it was unreasonable at all, however pursuing matters will probably just escalate matters and may make things ugly.
posted by dazed_one at 1:23 PM on April 21, 2007
I wouldn't worry about being unreasonable in bringing the matter up; I don't think it was unreasonable at all, however pursuing matters will probably just escalate matters and may make things ugly.
posted by dazed_one at 1:23 PM on April 21, 2007
Also, I am quite convinced that my daughter had no reason at all to lie about this.
Isn't this the same attitude your neighbors seem to cop? It's not at all possible that both children had a hand in breaking stuff?
These people sound nutty and not worth your time, but I'd be careful assigning definite blame for things you don't personally witness. Why wasn't someone watching these kids?
posted by almostmanda at 1:27 PM on April 21, 2007
Isn't this the same attitude your neighbors seem to cop? It's not at all possible that both children had a hand in breaking stuff?
These people sound nutty and not worth your time, but I'd be careful assigning definite blame for things you don't personally witness. Why wasn't someone watching these kids?
posted by almostmanda at 1:27 PM on April 21, 2007
I've really only got experience with this as a kid. There were some neighbors that broke stuff, we learned to keep our stuff away from them. There were kids who threw rocks, we were forbidden contact.
My Younger Boy is a little bruiser, so I'm kinda cringing inside, reading your question. He's too young for playdates, but he's been somewhat of a terror at daycare and the church nursery.
At home when both boys start going at it, I interrupt when it gets too harmful and have them script out what should happen instead: "Please may I have a turn, thank you," etc. If they're busting stuff up I take it away. (and say "This is not for Younger/Older boy") It's a little busy at church and daycare, so he's either redirected or put in time-out.
I guess if you can't work with the parents, work with the kid (if your daughter really wants to have him over, that is - follow her lead on this). Do the things you'd do to keep your own little one from breaking things - stay close and put the expensive things out of reach.
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On preview:
Is not at all possible that both children had a hand in breaking stuff?
This did happen a few times when I was a kid. One boy in particular would get all rowdy and break stuff, and the others would join in. I, as the oldest and designated leader, would have to break it up, as it were, and send that kid home.
posted by lysdexic at 1:35 PM on April 21, 2007
My Younger Boy is a little bruiser, so I'm kinda cringing inside, reading your question. He's too young for playdates, but he's been somewhat of a terror at daycare and the church nursery.
At home when both boys start going at it, I interrupt when it gets too harmful and have them script out what should happen instead: "Please may I have a turn, thank you," etc. If they're busting stuff up I take it away. (and say "This is not for Younger/Older boy") It's a little busy at church and daycare, so he's either redirected or put in time-out.
I guess if you can't work with the parents, work with the kid (if your daughter really wants to have him over, that is - follow her lead on this). Do the things you'd do to keep your own little one from breaking things - stay close and put the expensive things out of reach.
=====
On preview:
Is not at all possible that both children had a hand in breaking stuff?
This did happen a few times when I was a kid. One boy in particular would get all rowdy and break stuff, and the others would join in. I, as the oldest and designated leader, would have to break it up, as it were, and send that kid home.
posted by lysdexic at 1:35 PM on April 21, 2007
he does not have a clear notion of property yet [and trying-to-not-break-things], I guess. But I do feel that he should learn all those things. That's what parents are for, right?
If he were still playing at your place, you could try to instill those things even though you're not his parent. In a "No, Billy, that's too rough" and take the toy away if he doesn't understand kind of way.
Were we actually unreasonable in bringing the matter up?
No, the mother's (and, from what she said, the father's) reactions were unreasonable. But holding that against them isn't going to help anything, if you want to have a pleasant relationship with them and for your kids to get along. Especially don't hold the parents' nuttiness against the kid, even though his parents seem to be doing it (not allowing him to come to your house, because you guys are "unreasonable" or "mean" or whatever).
but I will still see them on a daily basis ... Any hope to talk it out?
This particular incident? Probably not, at least not in the near future. Was this incident your first significant interaction with the kid's parents (you say you're new to the neighbourhood, but not how new)? You could try getting a neighbourly friendship started with the kid's parents, without it seeming that you're trying to kiss ass for having "blamed" their kid. If you've got somewhat of a friendly foundation with the parents, maybe future incidents won't degrade into a screaming mess with slamming doors.
posted by CKmtl at 2:02 PM on April 21, 2007
If he were still playing at your place, you could try to instill those things even though you're not his parent. In a "No, Billy, that's too rough" and take the toy away if he doesn't understand kind of way.
Were we actually unreasonable in bringing the matter up?
No, the mother's (and, from what she said, the father's) reactions were unreasonable. But holding that against them isn't going to help anything, if you want to have a pleasant relationship with them and for your kids to get along. Especially don't hold the parents' nuttiness against the kid, even though his parents seem to be doing it (not allowing him to come to your house, because you guys are "unreasonable" or "mean" or whatever).
but I will still see them on a daily basis ... Any hope to talk it out?
This particular incident? Probably not, at least not in the near future. Was this incident your first significant interaction with the kid's parents (you say you're new to the neighbourhood, but not how new)? You could try getting a neighbourly friendship started with the kid's parents, without it seeming that you're trying to kiss ass for having "blamed" their kid. If you've got somewhat of a friendly foundation with the parents, maybe future incidents won't degrade into a screaming mess with slamming doors.
posted by CKmtl at 2:02 PM on April 21, 2007
Response by poster: Thanks for the responses. Dipsomaniac, that crossed my mind as well.
Isn't this the same attitude your neighbors seem to cop? It's not at all possible that both children had a hand in breaking stuff?
I can see where you are coming from, but in this case I do not think so. My daughter is VERY careful of things, to the point that we had to carefully introduce the idea that it is okay to play with the toys and that it is not a big deal if they get dirty, etc. She is not a saint at all, but breaking things is just not something she does. And I do not think she would come inside and say "[name] broke daddy's car" if it were not true.
They can usually play unsupervised near the front of our house (I keep an eye on them through the window and the open front door) but I guess this means that we should supervise them better indeed. I also do not blame anyone but myself that I did not see the boy taking the car outside.
Lyxdexic, I think that that is sound advice and I like the scripting things as well. That's what I did with the children of my friends in our old city. I find it difficult now though, since these children are a little older and not used to it. They clearly do not want me to parent them.
CKmtl: We have been living here for four months now. I had quite a few pleasant small conversations with this woman and I am still a bit shocked she would react so angry. I actually thought I *was* building a neighborhood friendship here... I would like to resolve this because I really do not like unresolved anger. But, as dazed_one says, I also do not want to escalate matters and make things ugly. You think it is best to act like this never happened and continue to be friendly and make small talk?
If he were still playing at your place, you could try to instill those things even though you're not his parent. In a "No, Billy, that's too rough" and take the toy away if he doesn't understand kind of way
I tried that once, but that did not work at all because he would hold on to the toy and he is quite strong for his age. I was very careful not to hurt him or touch him in any way that might be conceived as inappropriate. And this was even before the incident. I find it very difficult to discipline other peoples children (especially rough boys) if the parents are already "raging with anger" just because we said something.
posted by davar at 2:31 PM on April 21, 2007
Isn't this the same attitude your neighbors seem to cop? It's not at all possible that both children had a hand in breaking stuff?
I can see where you are coming from, but in this case I do not think so. My daughter is VERY careful of things, to the point that we had to carefully introduce the idea that it is okay to play with the toys and that it is not a big deal if they get dirty, etc. She is not a saint at all, but breaking things is just not something she does. And I do not think she would come inside and say "[name] broke daddy's car" if it were not true.
They can usually play unsupervised near the front of our house (I keep an eye on them through the window and the open front door) but I guess this means that we should supervise them better indeed. I also do not blame anyone but myself that I did not see the boy taking the car outside.
Lyxdexic, I think that that is sound advice and I like the scripting things as well. That's what I did with the children of my friends in our old city. I find it difficult now though, since these children are a little older and not used to it. They clearly do not want me to parent them.
CKmtl: We have been living here for four months now. I had quite a few pleasant small conversations with this woman and I am still a bit shocked she would react so angry. I actually thought I *was* building a neighborhood friendship here... I would like to resolve this because I really do not like unresolved anger. But, as dazed_one says, I also do not want to escalate matters and make things ugly. You think it is best to act like this never happened and continue to be friendly and make small talk?
If he were still playing at your place, you could try to instill those things even though you're not his parent. In a "No, Billy, that's too rough" and take the toy away if he doesn't understand kind of way
I tried that once, but that did not work at all because he would hold on to the toy and he is quite strong for his age. I was very careful not to hurt him or touch him in any way that might be conceived as inappropriate. And this was even before the incident. I find it very difficult to discipline other peoples children (especially rough boys) if the parents are already "raging with anger" just because we said something.
posted by davar at 2:31 PM on April 21, 2007
There's really nothing you can do. You told the mother, but you can't really even be sure that your child broke the cars, as you admit you weren't watching and didn't even see them being removed from the house.
It seems like you have a few choices.
(1) Stop letting your kid play with this little boy since he breaks your stuff.
(2) Keep letting them play together, but be extra vigilant and keep an eye on what the kids are doing when he's over.
(3) Let it go but keep expensive things like model cars out of reach of tiny hands. (This is what my parents did when I was small...kids break stuff! Especially things that seem to be toys.)
posted by tastybrains at 3:11 PM on April 21, 2007
It seems like you have a few choices.
(1) Stop letting your kid play with this little boy since he breaks your stuff.
(2) Keep letting them play together, but be extra vigilant and keep an eye on what the kids are doing when he's over.
(3) Let it go but keep expensive things like model cars out of reach of tiny hands. (This is what my parents did when I was small...kids break stuff! Especially things that seem to be toys.)
posted by tastybrains at 3:11 PM on April 21, 2007
... I guess this means that we should supervise them better indeed.
Might be a good idea, especially when the kid's parents aren't likely to take your word for it. Let's say sometime down the line, the kid hits your daughter (not saying he'll be physically violent because he's rough with toys, just speaking hypothetically). Being able to say "I saw Billy hit her" rather than "she says Billy hit her", would less likely be met with suspicion and doubt.
I also do not want to escalate matters and make things ugly. You think it is best to act like this never happened and continue to be friendly and make small talk?
From your description of their reaction, it seems to me that another attempt to resolve it *would* come off to them as / lead to escalation. There's also an off chance that maybe if you act the same as before, she'll feel weird for having exploded and initiate some kind of resolution herself.
By establishing a neighbourly friendship, I was thinking something maybe a level or two up from small talk... offering some "extra" cookies from a batch that you "accidentally" made too big, or something. The small-talk level obviously wasn't enough to get past their 'how dare you accuse my kid' barrier.
posted by CKmtl at 3:18 PM on April 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
Might be a good idea, especially when the kid's parents aren't likely to take your word for it. Let's say sometime down the line, the kid hits your daughter (not saying he'll be physically violent because he's rough with toys, just speaking hypothetically). Being able to say "I saw Billy hit her" rather than "she says Billy hit her", would less likely be met with suspicion and doubt.
I also do not want to escalate matters and make things ugly. You think it is best to act like this never happened and continue to be friendly and make small talk?
From your description of their reaction, it seems to me that another attempt to resolve it *would* come off to them as / lead to escalation. There's also an off chance that maybe if you act the same as before, she'll feel weird for having exploded and initiate some kind of resolution herself.
By establishing a neighbourly friendship, I was thinking something maybe a level or two up from small talk... offering some "extra" cookies from a batch that you "accidentally" made too big, or something. The small-talk level obviously wasn't enough to get past their 'how dare you accuse my kid' barrier.
posted by CKmtl at 3:18 PM on April 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
Sounds like the kid is being raised in a fucked up family situation, which might explain why he enjoys breaking things. A father who's "already angry"? At what, exactly, if this is your first time mentioning it? My guess is that he's angry all the time, which is why the mother is so defensive (and angry to boot).
Pity the kid, but don't try to impart your own parental abilities on him. You'll only raise the ire of the assholes.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 3:46 PM on April 21, 2007
Pity the kid, but don't try to impart your own parental abilities on him. You'll only raise the ire of the assholes.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 3:46 PM on April 21, 2007
I feel for you, davar. We have a couple of Destructo-tots on our block, too, and it's not an easy thing to deal with. Tastybrains' suggestion to keep the models out of the reach of children is a good one. My father has a similar collection that he keeps in a glass case now. If the kids want to look at the cars, he allows them to handle them (with supervision), but he reminds them that the cars are too fragile for 'pretend' play. Then he pulls out the box of old Tonkas and Hot Wheels.
The things that concerns me here, though, are the parents' reaction and the kid's reaction. The kid knew to make himself scarce when the toy was broken, and that suggests to me he's gotten the message from his parents that he's been designated the neighborhood toy-breaker. I know from experience that with some guidance kids can outgrow a lot of bad behavior, but the guidance is the key. Did the parents make an effort to replace the broken models? If not, I'd see that as a red flag. Thier defensiveness is not going to help thier kid in the long run, and it's not going to make your daughter any happier to be around him. If he wanders over, keep a close eye on him and make sure he understands where and how he's allowed to play in your yard. But don't be afraid to send him home the moment he crosses the line. He has to at least respect the rules of your house if he wants so dearly to play there. All else is really out of your control.
posted by maryh at 3:46 PM on April 21, 2007
The things that concerns me here, though, are the parents' reaction and the kid's reaction. The kid knew to make himself scarce when the toy was broken, and that suggests to me he's gotten the message from his parents that he's been designated the neighborhood toy-breaker. I know from experience that with some guidance kids can outgrow a lot of bad behavior, but the guidance is the key. Did the parents make an effort to replace the broken models? If not, I'd see that as a red flag. Thier defensiveness is not going to help thier kid in the long run, and it's not going to make your daughter any happier to be around him. If he wanders over, keep a close eye on him and make sure he understands where and how he's allowed to play in your yard. But don't be afraid to send him home the moment he crosses the line. He has to at least respect the rules of your house if he wants so dearly to play there. All else is really out of your control.
posted by maryh at 3:46 PM on April 21, 2007
You might want to think about what his parents might think about you touching him.
posted by dragonsi55 at 3:58 PM on April 21, 2007
posted by dragonsi55 at 3:58 PM on April 21, 2007
Even if you are 99.9% sure the boy broke the cars, you didn't see it. Perhaps the diplomatic thing to do would be to approach the mother, explain that you didn't in fact see the boy break the cars, and apologize for blaming the child and "getting off on the wrong foot." Say you want to start over and that you are sorry for the tension between the two of you.
Even if you are not wrong (and I agree that you probably aren't at fault here), it is likely that the only way to mend things with this woman will be to be the bigger person and apologize. Then do all the things you and others suggested: monitor the children more, etc.
posted by terrapin at 4:04 PM on April 21, 2007
Even if you are not wrong (and I agree that you probably aren't at fault here), it is likely that the only way to mend things with this woman will be to be the bigger person and apologize. Then do all the things you and others suggested: monitor the children more, etc.
posted by terrapin at 4:04 PM on April 21, 2007
CKmtl's point of giving something small, like some cookies or some fresh fruit (someone gave us, we can't eat it all type of approach) might work. Do it sometime when the husband is there, but don't bring up the boy.
If the boy is at your house, you certainly can set rules. You can certainly tell the boy that if he plays rough with toys, or breaks things, that he has to go home. He will test you. Stick to your guns, and send him home if he is not behaving. If the mom comes over to say something, tell her that you set some rules and when he can be nice to the toys he can come play again. I personally wouldn't let the boy be alone outside with the three year old (you can say that you are worried that your daughter will go out in the street and he isn't old enough to supervise her.) If you can't be with the two of them, tell him that she can't play right now, and he needs to go home to play until she can come out.
Overall, you may never have a good relationship with these people. The wife's reaction sounds the same as the mother of the boy who smashed the windows out of our RV a few years ago. I went and asked all the parents of kids in our trailer park to let me know if they heard anything on the school bus or from other kids. The mother of the kid who did it took it as an accusation of her son (whom I was pretty sure at the time he had done it but had no proof) even though I didn't say that I thought anyone from our park did it. Later, after I found a witness, and the police confronted the boy and he admitted, the parents apologized (but only I think, so that they could get out of paying for the damage.)
wife of 445supermag
posted by 445supermag at 4:04 PM on April 21, 2007
If the boy is at your house, you certainly can set rules. You can certainly tell the boy that if he plays rough with toys, or breaks things, that he has to go home. He will test you. Stick to your guns, and send him home if he is not behaving. If the mom comes over to say something, tell her that you set some rules and when he can be nice to the toys he can come play again. I personally wouldn't let the boy be alone outside with the three year old (you can say that you are worried that your daughter will go out in the street and he isn't old enough to supervise her.) If you can't be with the two of them, tell him that she can't play right now, and he needs to go home to play until she can come out.
Overall, you may never have a good relationship with these people. The wife's reaction sounds the same as the mother of the boy who smashed the windows out of our RV a few years ago. I went and asked all the parents of kids in our trailer park to let me know if they heard anything on the school bus or from other kids. The mother of the kid who did it took it as an accusation of her son (whom I was pretty sure at the time he had done it but had no proof) even though I didn't say that I thought anyone from our park did it. Later, after I found a witness, and the police confronted the boy and he admitted, the parents apologized (but only I think, so that they could get out of paying for the damage.)
wife of 445supermag
posted by 445supermag at 4:04 PM on April 21, 2007
Response by poster: Thanks again. For the record: there actually was a witness: a ten year old boy. I agree that to stranger's ears it could still sound like an elaborate plot to set up the poor boy, though.
I thought about apologizing. My husband does not like the idea at all. I am also unsure if it will go well. Usually I am in favor of "killing with kindness". I used to be a support desk person and I could handle angry people whose e-mail did not work really well. I'll sleep on it. I think that at the moment the cookies would come off as "kissing ass" because we realized we wrongly blamed their child, or something, but it is something I will keep in mind.
I will supervise more closely and keep the expensive toys out of reach, but I wonder if that is enough. Maybe I should also note that I am not in the US. Semi-unsupervised outside play of small children is still quite normal here (and baking cookies quite rare...).
wife of 445supermag: that sounds similar indeed. For the record, we did not say that he destroyed the cars and we immediately admitted that we did not see that. We did say that he must have taken the cars outside because there is just no way my daughter did do that. Not only would she not do that, she also wore a skirt today, without pockets. I would definitely have seen her hiding two cars in her hands.
I worry about the touching thing indeed dragonsi55. I have now decided that whenever he does not listen, I will give him one chance. If he still does not listen, I'll get his mother. Does that sound reasonable?
posted by davar at 4:57 PM on April 21, 2007
I thought about apologizing. My husband does not like the idea at all. I am also unsure if it will go well. Usually I am in favor of "killing with kindness". I used to be a support desk person and I could handle angry people whose e-mail did not work really well. I'll sleep on it. I think that at the moment the cookies would come off as "kissing ass" because we realized we wrongly blamed their child, or something, but it is something I will keep in mind.
I will supervise more closely and keep the expensive toys out of reach, but I wonder if that is enough. Maybe I should also note that I am not in the US. Semi-unsupervised outside play of small children is still quite normal here (and baking cookies quite rare...).
wife of 445supermag: that sounds similar indeed. For the record, we did not say that he destroyed the cars and we immediately admitted that we did not see that. We did say that he must have taken the cars outside because there is just no way my daughter did do that. Not only would she not do that, she also wore a skirt today, without pockets. I would definitely have seen her hiding two cars in her hands.
I worry about the touching thing indeed dragonsi55. I have now decided that whenever he does not listen, I will give him one chance. If he still does not listen, I'll get his mother. Does that sound reasonable?
posted by davar at 4:57 PM on April 21, 2007
Maybe I should also note that I am not in the US. Semi-unsupervised outside play of small children is still quite normal here (and baking cookies quite rare...).
Ah, well, at least the word is somewhat Dutch. :)
posted by CKmtl at 5:10 PM on April 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
Ah, well, at least the word is somewhat Dutch. :)
posted by CKmtl at 5:10 PM on April 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
"I have now decided that whenever he does not listen, I will give him one chance. If he still does not listen, I'll get his mother. Does that sound reasonable?"
No, it doesn't. If he doesn't listen to you in your own home, he has to leave right away. The first time. Right away. If he wants to play in your house, then he has to respect you and your rules.
You can give a second chance the next day. You can remind him of the rules when he comes over, then when he breaks the rules remind him what you expect of him, and send him home when he ignores you. Right away. The third chance would be maybe a week or a month later, or even "when you're more grown up and ready to play at other people's houses."
Kids never like to be parented by someone who is not their parent, but you need to explain what the rules are in your house. That's not the same thing. You don't get to punish them, but you do get to tell them what is allowed and what is not, and you do get to send them home if they do not respect your boundaries. That isn't punishment, that's natural consequences.
Also, I agree with your husband that apologising to the neighbours is the wrong thing to do. However, being nice is definitely the right thing to do. Even being extra nice. But no, not apologising.
posted by kika at 5:44 PM on April 21, 2007
No, it doesn't. If he doesn't listen to you in your own home, he has to leave right away. The first time. Right away. If he wants to play in your house, then he has to respect you and your rules.
You can give a second chance the next day. You can remind him of the rules when he comes over, then when he breaks the rules remind him what you expect of him, and send him home when he ignores you. Right away. The third chance would be maybe a week or a month later, or even "when you're more grown up and ready to play at other people's houses."
Kids never like to be parented by someone who is not their parent, but you need to explain what the rules are in your house. That's not the same thing. You don't get to punish them, but you do get to tell them what is allowed and what is not, and you do get to send them home if they do not respect your boundaries. That isn't punishment, that's natural consequences.
Also, I agree with your husband that apologising to the neighbours is the wrong thing to do. However, being nice is definitely the right thing to do. Even being extra nice. But no, not apologising.
posted by kika at 5:44 PM on April 21, 2007
Fuck the diplomatic approach. We dealt with a similar problem, althought it was stealing rather than destroying. The best response is not to invite the kid over any more. If the mother approaches you, decline, politely but firmly. She will know why.
posted by megatherium at 5:55 PM on April 21, 2007
posted by megatherium at 5:55 PM on April 21, 2007
What, exactly, would you apologize for? "I'm sorry your child is a destructive little brat?" No, that's not a good idea. We also had a similar problem; the child in question would come to our house and take our things outside and (seemingly) deliberately break or lose them. Not once, not twice, but several times.
I talked with the child's parents, who obviously did not care that their daughter was damaging property, as long as it was not theirs.
I told my daughter that if the child was ever to come over again, our things had to stay in our house, and my daughter should come to me if she tried it again. Otherwise, our child would be responsible for the damage. It happened once. I held her to it. It never happened again (by this point, our child was about 8).
You have to stand up for yourselves; your child has to learn to stand up for herself. She will observe what you do. These are people who do not care. If you do not teach children that there are consequences for unacceptable behavior, how will they ever learn? It's obvious that your adult neighbors never got that lesson.
posted by clarkstonian at 6:10 PM on April 21, 2007
I talked with the child's parents, who obviously did not care that their daughter was damaging property, as long as it was not theirs.
I told my daughter that if the child was ever to come over again, our things had to stay in our house, and my daughter should come to me if she tried it again. Otherwise, our child would be responsible for the damage. It happened once. I held her to it. It never happened again (by this point, our child was about 8).
You have to stand up for yourselves; your child has to learn to stand up for herself. She will observe what you do. These are people who do not care. If you do not teach children that there are consequences for unacceptable behavior, how will they ever learn? It's obvious that your adult neighbors never got that lesson.
posted by clarkstonian at 6:10 PM on April 21, 2007
Even if you are 99.9% sure the boy broke the cars, you didn't see it. Perhaps the diplomatic thing to do would be to approach the mother, explain that you didn't in fact see the boy break the cars, and apologize for blaming the child and "getting off on the wrong foot." Say you want to start over and that you are sorry for the tension between the two of you.
Even if you are not wrong (and I agree that you probably aren't at fault here), it is likely that the only way to mend things with this woman will be to be the bigger person and apologize. Then do all the things you and others suggested: monitor the children more, etc.
posted by terrapin at 7:04 PM on April 21 [+]
This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say.
[!]
posted by desuetude at 6:11 PM on April 21, 2007
Even if you are not wrong (and I agree that you probably aren't at fault here), it is likely that the only way to mend things with this woman will be to be the bigger person and apologize. Then do all the things you and others suggested: monitor the children more, etc.
posted by terrapin at 7:04 PM on April 21 [+]
This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say.
[!]
posted by desuetude at 6:11 PM on April 21, 2007
As a parent of a four year-old bruiser, I cannot justify that woman's actions. I would not have reacted that way. But, perhaps, I can provide a little insight into the situation.
Her son has probably done this before and she said she's been confronted before. I am willing to bet she's ashamed and embarassed, and she's couching her emotions in anger. It's really perplexing when your child is the most aggressive one in the class/neighborhood/playgroup. I know that my spouse and I have done all kinds of things [e.g. family therapy] to minimize our son's aggression, but it's a constant stressor in group situations. We never know what our son is going to do.
I nth the idea of not apologizing, but being nice and maybe sharing cookies or lemonade or something. Best of luck and please let us know how it works out.
(On the other hand, if it turns out they're just nuts, it's best to avoid them, but I'm sure you knew that already.)
posted by luminous phenomena at 7:06 PM on April 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
Her son has probably done this before and she said she's been confronted before. I am willing to bet she's ashamed and embarassed, and she's couching her emotions in anger. It's really perplexing when your child is the most aggressive one in the class/neighborhood/playgroup. I know that my spouse and I have done all kinds of things [e.g. family therapy] to minimize our son's aggression, but it's a constant stressor in group situations. We never know what our son is going to do.
I nth the idea of not apologizing, but being nice and maybe sharing cookies or lemonade or something. Best of luck and please let us know how it works out.
(On the other hand, if it turns out they're just nuts, it's best to avoid them, but I'm sure you knew that already.)
posted by luminous phenomena at 7:06 PM on April 21, 2007 [1 favorite]
Say you want to start over and that you are sorry for the tension between the two of you.
Exactly - apologize for "upsetting her" - if you want to keep a relationship into the future. If you don't - simply don't let the kids play.
However, as others have said - you have to be witness to an incident. Our daughter complained about a neighbours' daughter pushing her - we brought it up and were told: "absolutely not, she doesn't do that - your daughter is lying". Two weeks later when both my wife and I saw that girl shove ours down a flight of stairs, the story changed quite a bit...
posted by jkaczor at 7:07 PM on April 21, 2007
Exactly - apologize for "upsetting her" - if you want to keep a relationship into the future. If you don't - simply don't let the kids play.
However, as others have said - you have to be witness to an incident. Our daughter complained about a neighbours' daughter pushing her - we brought it up and were told: "absolutely not, she doesn't do that - your daughter is lying". Two weeks later when both my wife and I saw that girl shove ours down a flight of stairs, the story changed quite a bit...
posted by jkaczor at 7:07 PM on April 21, 2007
Print this topic, put it in their mailbox. Seriously.
posted by Sonic_Molson at 8:57 PM on April 21, 2007
posted by Sonic_Molson at 8:57 PM on April 21, 2007
Abuses are often over in moments. I'd be concerned about your own reaction to the child, if he did something that required a flash reaction. If there are no witnesses, then any confrontation could get muddy very quickly.
Out on the street is more open socially, and trying to constrain contact with your daughter in public could hinder her more than help. But him inside your house, or your child inside his house, probably isn't a good idea if the parents aren't trusting each other.
posted by dragonsi55 at 9:11 PM on April 21, 2007
Out on the street is more open socially, and trying to constrain contact with your daughter in public could hinder her more than help. But him inside your house, or your child inside his house, probably isn't a good idea if the parents aren't trusting each other.
posted by dragonsi55 at 9:11 PM on April 21, 2007
I don't think you can talk your way out of/around/through these kinds of tensions. As luminous phenomena said, she's probably embarrassed and defensive. Hence the slamming-of-door and overreaction. I think it's wrong to kiss ass with cookies or apologies. There will be a "next time" with this kid. If you apologize now and someday NEED to talk to this boy's parents about a similar (but escalated) situation, those parents will have the ammo of "Oh, well LAST time you came over later and apologized... is this the same sort of thing? Are you wrong now, too? Hmmm?" To honestly talk through and get past something like this both people have to be willing to face the possibility that they might themselves somehow be culpable or that their quarter contains fault. This woman and her husband don't seem like they're ready to accept any responsibility for this (and earlier) situation(s). Trying to talk it out will lead to a blow-up and another door slammed in your face.
I'm with Sonic_Molson. Bold move, and not for the faint of heart, but seriously - consider printing this up. Frankly, I think there's nothing like a bunch of reasonable, reasoned, anonymous opinions from the internets to stop people cold in their illogical tracks. You say in the thread you sincerely thought this was a blossoming neighbourhood friendship. You say you value the street and your relationships with your neighbours. You are saddened by the tension and her reaction. You are concerned about the neighbourhood dynamic in the wake of the situation. This thread gives all kinds of ways to look at the situation and might help this woman see that she and her husband (whether he's angry or not) need to face the reality that their son is causing problems outside the home. She can deal with our anonymous opinions in the privacy of her own home and soul and maybe come to better conclusions.
posted by Mrs Hilksom at 9:54 PM on April 21, 2007
I'm with Sonic_Molson. Bold move, and not for the faint of heart, but seriously - consider printing this up. Frankly, I think there's nothing like a bunch of reasonable, reasoned, anonymous opinions from the internets to stop people cold in their illogical tracks. You say in the thread you sincerely thought this was a blossoming neighbourhood friendship. You say you value the street and your relationships with your neighbours. You are saddened by the tension and her reaction. You are concerned about the neighbourhood dynamic in the wake of the situation. This thread gives all kinds of ways to look at the situation and might help this woman see that she and her husband (whether he's angry or not) need to face the reality that their son is causing problems outside the home. She can deal with our anonymous opinions in the privacy of her own home and soul and maybe come to better conclusions.
posted by Mrs Hilksom at 9:54 PM on April 21, 2007
They are in denial, because they are suppressing the thought that their kid is undiagnosed with a problem. Forget about the incident and be thankful it's not you getting the bad reports. It can be much worse.
posted by Brian B. at 10:44 PM on April 21, 2007
posted by Brian B. at 10:44 PM on April 21, 2007
Response by poster: Thanks everybody! All the different perspectives are really helpful (and I got to learn something about koekjes - interesting CKmtl!). I have to go now but I'll respond a bit more to what everybody said tonight.
posted by davar at 1:04 AM on April 22, 2007
posted by davar at 1:04 AM on April 22, 2007
I'm with the apologizing crowd. Something bad happened between me and my neighbours when I was 4, and it caused a fall-out between the adults. That fallout had repercussions for me as a kid playing with the other kids in the neighbourhood, who learned from their parents that my family was an object of scorn and anger. In my opinion, patching things up to the point of civility is a good step to take for the purpose of maintaining harmony for your child during unmonitored play.
Here is how I would approach it. Write a note. Apologize for the misunderstanding. Something along the lines of:
"We wanted to let you know that we are sorry about the other night. It was not our intention to blame [name], or to demand punishment. We wanted to let you know because if our positions were reversed, we would want to know. We find [name] to be a sweet boy, and our daughter enjoys his company. We weren't aware that others have blamed him of breaking toys, and we don't blame him. He is only five, and things like this are to be expected."
If you don't mind him coming over finish off with something like "we hope you will reconsider letting him come play with our daughter. He is welcome here." If you think it's better that he doesn't come over anymore then finish with something like "We respect your decision that [name] should not play inside our house anymore." In either case, end with something like "We very much enjoy this neighbourhood, the friendly relationship we've had with you has been a part of that. We very much hope that it can continue."
That pretty much sums up everything nice you've said here, and doesn't have the passive-aggressiveness of printing out the thread and giving it to them (which would also be creepy and weird--please don't do it). Delivering it as a note gives them the chance to think about it without having to react to it, and you the chance to phrase it as carefully as possible.
I'm with Civil_D here in that this reads like an abusive family to me, but I also recognize that I'm reading this through my own lens. It may be that this was just the *last straw* in a neighbourhood where there is already some real tension that you were unaware of. Either way, you may take some pressure off the boy if you make some effort to let his parents know that you like him and don't blame him.
posted by carmen at 8:56 AM on April 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
Here is how I would approach it. Write a note. Apologize for the misunderstanding. Something along the lines of:
"We wanted to let you know that we are sorry about the other night. It was not our intention to blame [name], or to demand punishment. We wanted to let you know because if our positions were reversed, we would want to know. We find [name] to be a sweet boy, and our daughter enjoys his company. We weren't aware that others have blamed him of breaking toys, and we don't blame him. He is only five, and things like this are to be expected."
If you don't mind him coming over finish off with something like "we hope you will reconsider letting him come play with our daughter. He is welcome here." If you think it's better that he doesn't come over anymore then finish with something like "We respect your decision that [name] should not play inside our house anymore." In either case, end with something like "We very much enjoy this neighbourhood, the friendly relationship we've had with you has been a part of that. We very much hope that it can continue."
That pretty much sums up everything nice you've said here, and doesn't have the passive-aggressiveness of printing out the thread and giving it to them (which would also be creepy and weird--please don't do it). Delivering it as a note gives them the chance to think about it without having to react to it, and you the chance to phrase it as carefully as possible.
I'm with Civil_D here in that this reads like an abusive family to me, but I also recognize that I'm reading this through my own lens. It may be that this was just the *last straw* in a neighbourhood where there is already some real tension that you were unaware of. Either way, you may take some pressure off the boy if you make some effort to let his parents know that you like him and don't blame him.
posted by carmen at 8:56 AM on April 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'd go with the apologising camp as well - bearing in mind that it's perfectly possible to apologise for how your initial approach may have been perceived, without apologising for doing it. It's going too far to write this family off as loonies/abusive/just not very nice based on just one over-reaction.
All parents are sensitive about their kids, and no matter how well-phrased and neutrally-voiced your husband's approach may have been, if it came at the wrong time - when the mother was stressed, for whatever reason - it could still have come across as "hi, I just thought I'd pop by to let you know that we're better parents than you."
So, yeah, a simple "Hey, sorry if we came across wrong the other night - we weren't blaming your kid or you, we just thought you might like to know. Sorry if you thought that was out of line." Of course, if the parents slap that away as well, then it might be time to begin Operation Avoid The Freaks.
But don't bake cookies. That's just a bit creepy.
posted by flashboy at 9:36 AM on April 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
All parents are sensitive about their kids, and no matter how well-phrased and neutrally-voiced your husband's approach may have been, if it came at the wrong time - when the mother was stressed, for whatever reason - it could still have come across as "hi, I just thought I'd pop by to let you know that we're better parents than you."
So, yeah, a simple "Hey, sorry if we came across wrong the other night - we weren't blaming your kid or you, we just thought you might like to know. Sorry if you thought that was out of line." Of course, if the parents slap that away as well, then it might be time to begin Operation Avoid The Freaks.
But don't bake cookies. That's just a bit creepy.
posted by flashboy at 9:36 AM on April 22, 2007 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I'll consider the "fake apology" (perhaps in a letter indeed) because I really do value our "relationship". I usually really dislike those "I am sorry our visit upset you" apologies, but now that I think of it, I don't know many people who feel that way and maybe it works. Politicians seem to get away with it all the time. I am a bit worried about Mrs Wilksom's scenario though: ' There will be a "next time" with this kid. If you apologize now and someday NEED to talk to this boy's parents about a similar (but escalated) situation, those parents will have the ammo of "Oh, well LAST time you came over later and apologized... is this the same sort of thing? Are you wrong now, too? Hmmm?"'
Your insights in why she might have reacted this way were also valuable. I was truly flabbergasted. This is a nice neighborhood and the boy's parents seem nice and involved in their children's lives. I now think there is probably something more going on, also because of the "you coward, you waited until my husband was out of the house until you could confront me alone" thing. That seems quite paranoid to me.
dragonsi55: But him inside your house, or your child inside his house, probably isn't a good idea if the parents aren't trusting each other.
I agree with that and decided that he cannot play here for now. Supervising their outside play will be enough of a challenge. Kika, your advice was good and I think I'll use that with other kids. This kid, though, just often will not listen. I will say "You have to go home now" and he just says "no." Then what do you do?
Maryh: I know from experience that with some guidance kids can outgrow a lot of bad behavior, but the guidance is the key.
That's the exact reason I went to the parents. I so feel for this kid, because I know that if he does not get any guidance and in fact only reinforcements for his bad behaviour, *he* will ultimately be the one who suffers.
One cool thing was the way my daughter reacted to him. He asked yesterday evening (after the car breaking, but before the door slamming) "I can still come into your house, can't I"? She firmly responded "Yes. But you cannot take any things and you have to ask if you want to play with something". I thought that was just the right level of assertiveness so I was quite proud of her :)
posted by davar at 11:27 AM on April 22, 2007
Your insights in why she might have reacted this way were also valuable. I was truly flabbergasted. This is a nice neighborhood and the boy's parents seem nice and involved in their children's lives. I now think there is probably something more going on, also because of the "you coward, you waited until my husband was out of the house until you could confront me alone" thing. That seems quite paranoid to me.
dragonsi55: But him inside your house, or your child inside his house, probably isn't a good idea if the parents aren't trusting each other.
I agree with that and decided that he cannot play here for now. Supervising their outside play will be enough of a challenge. Kika, your advice was good and I think I'll use that with other kids. This kid, though, just often will not listen. I will say "You have to go home now" and he just says "no." Then what do you do?
Maryh: I know from experience that with some guidance kids can outgrow a lot of bad behavior, but the guidance is the key.
That's the exact reason I went to the parents. I so feel for this kid, because I know that if he does not get any guidance and in fact only reinforcements for his bad behaviour, *he* will ultimately be the one who suffers.
One cool thing was the way my daughter reacted to him. He asked yesterday evening (after the car breaking, but before the door slamming) "I can still come into your house, can't I"? She firmly responded "Yes. But you cannot take any things and you have to ask if you want to play with something". I thought that was just the right level of assertiveness so I was quite proud of her :)
posted by davar at 11:27 AM on April 22, 2007
I n'th not letting the kid play in your house...I know little boys are destructive, but there is a big difference between "oops Johnny wasn't careful and he dropped the dumptruck" and "Johnny decided it was a good idea to disassemble a toy belonging to someone else."
posted by radioamy at 12:34 PM on April 22, 2007
posted by radioamy at 12:34 PM on April 22, 2007
I'll consider the "fake apology"
Are you actually not sorry for upsetting them? Assuming that they are not crazy, and somehow your attempt at communication was poorly phrased or timed, or in the context of some other stress, you have no regrets about the way they felt about it? Because the stuff you said here seems to indicate that you didn't want to hurt or upset them, but you did. That seems like grounds for an actual genuine apology to me.
Don't apologize for upsetting them: their behaviour is theirs and you don't have to apologize for it, and don't apologize for telling them about the situation. Apologize for implying unintentionally that you blame their child, and clarify your intentions. If they are open and receptive people, this will lay the groundwork for establishing how to deal with his behaviour in the future. A veiled "I'm sorry you overreacted," or an "I'm sorry we mentioned it" will not do that, but a genuine apology for miscommunication may.
posted by carmen at 1:37 PM on April 22, 2007
Are you actually not sorry for upsetting them? Assuming that they are not crazy, and somehow your attempt at communication was poorly phrased or timed, or in the context of some other stress, you have no regrets about the way they felt about it? Because the stuff you said here seems to indicate that you didn't want to hurt or upset them, but you did. That seems like grounds for an actual genuine apology to me.
Don't apologize for upsetting them: their behaviour is theirs and you don't have to apologize for it, and don't apologize for telling them about the situation. Apologize for implying unintentionally that you blame their child, and clarify your intentions. If they are open and receptive people, this will lay the groundwork for establishing how to deal with his behaviour in the future. A veiled "I'm sorry you overreacted," or an "I'm sorry we mentioned it" will not do that, but a genuine apology for miscommunication may.
posted by carmen at 1:37 PM on April 22, 2007
Don't apologize for upsetting them: their behaviour is theirs and you don't have to apologize for it, and don't apologize for telling them about the situation. Apologize for implying unintentionally that you blame their child, and clarify your intentions. If they are open and receptive people, this will lay the groundwork for establishing how to deal with his behaviour in the future. A veiled "I'm sorry you overreacted," or an "I'm sorry we mentioned it" will not do that, but a genuine apology for miscommunication may.
posted by carmen at 4:37 PM on April 22 [+]
This is exactly the follow-up advice I was going to give.
posted by desuetude at 4:10 PM on April 22, 2007
posted by carmen at 4:37 PM on April 22 [+]
This is exactly the follow-up advice I was going to give.
posted by desuetude at 4:10 PM on April 22, 2007
"This kid, though, just often will not listen. I will say "You have to go home now" and he just says "no." Then what do you do?"
You open the door, pick him up, and carry him outside. You can escort him home if you like, holding your daughter's hand in one hand and his hand in another. If his parents are letting him play in your house they are counting on you to ensure his safety. Abandoning him outside without supervision would not ensure his safety.
This not the same thing as hitting him upside the head to punish him for disobedience, which you must never do.
posted by kika at 4:18 PM on April 22, 2007
You open the door, pick him up, and carry him outside. You can escort him home if you like, holding your daughter's hand in one hand and his hand in another. If his parents are letting him play in your house they are counting on you to ensure his safety. Abandoning him outside without supervision would not ensure his safety.
This not the same thing as hitting him upside the head to punish him for disobedience, which you must never do.
posted by kika at 4:18 PM on April 22, 2007
Response by poster: Update: the boys father came to us this evening in a very friendly manner to tell us that our daughter was playing with another neighbors fence and that the neighbor did not like that. We thanked him and told our daughter to not play there anymore. So, uhm, I guess I'll just wait and see for now. Maybe pretending nothing happened works best with this family. (They never, ever came to us before and my daughter plays there all the time...)
Kika: I am a bit worried about physically picking up disobedient children whose parents do not trust me. I decided the boy will not play here for now. That should not pose too much of a problem since the weather allows for lots of playing outside anyway.
Thanks again for all your answers.
posted by davar at 10:38 AM on April 23, 2007
Kika: I am a bit worried about physically picking up disobedient children whose parents do not trust me. I decided the boy will not play here for now. That should not pose too much of a problem since the weather allows for lots of playing outside anyway.
Thanks again for all your answers.
posted by davar at 10:38 AM on April 23, 2007
davar: Grrr, he was pulling the ol' tit for tat.
Talk to the 'offended' nieghbor, please. If your daughter crossed a line, it's best for you to talk to the nieghbor with the fence yourself. You'll know exactly what to tell your daughter about respecting that person's property, and you might get a clearer idea of what this person expects from neighbors and thier kids.
DON'T accept this as purely secondhand information. I may be entirely wrong here, but I'm getting a mighty passive-aggressive stink off that boy's dad.
posted by maryh at 11:29 PM on April 23, 2007
Talk to the 'offended' nieghbor, please. If your daughter crossed a line, it's best for you to talk to the nieghbor with the fence yourself. You'll know exactly what to tell your daughter about respecting that person's property, and you might get a clearer idea of what this person expects from neighbors and thier kids.
DON'T accept this as purely secondhand information. I may be entirely wrong here, but I'm getting a mighty passive-aggressive stink off that boy's dad.
posted by maryh at 11:29 PM on April 23, 2007
Response by poster: I was so surprised at the visit that (afterwards) I could only laugh about the silliness of it all. I am just glad he is not ragingly aggresive anymore.
When it comes to playing at other peoples' property, I err on the side of caution. I am actually not that comfortable with it at all, but since all the children do it, I do not want to restrict my child too much. I am still finding out the boundaries in this neigborhood. I think I'll talk to the other neighbors (with whom I have no contact at all) if I see them in passing, and in the meantime I'll ask my daughter to not play there. It is such a minor issue, I don't want to continue the aversiveness over something like this.
posted by davar at 3:38 AM on April 24, 2007
When it comes to playing at other peoples' property, I err on the side of caution. I am actually not that comfortable with it at all, but since all the children do it, I do not want to restrict my child too much. I am still finding out the boundaries in this neigborhood. I think I'll talk to the other neighbors (with whom I have no contact at all) if I see them in passing, and in the meantime I'll ask my daughter to not play there. It is such a minor issue, I don't want to continue the aversiveness over something like this.
posted by davar at 3:38 AM on April 24, 2007
Response by poster: Edit: instead of ragingly aggresive I meant, of course, ragingly angry. Thankfully he never was ragingly aggresive.
posted by davar at 3:59 AM on April 24, 2007
posted by davar at 3:59 AM on April 24, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
And, no, I don't think you were unreasonable. His mother sounds like she kinda was, though.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 1:20 PM on April 21, 2007