Am I loser and/or should I just get over it?

April 20, 2007 9:57 AM

What am I doing wrong, or is this just a ships-passing-in-the-night thing?

Since I was a kid I've had a lot of tough social issues--near pathological shyness (my parents and teachers thought I was autistic), mutliple phobias, a tendency to just shut down and go silent or literally run away, and an extreme fear of strangers and new situations. These things have been lifelong burdens.

I'm older now and have learned to adjust somewhat. I've been able to hold down jobs and get married and pass for normal. I don't feel any less fearful inside than I used to, but I've carefully studied how others behave, and I calibrate my actions and reactions very carefully to fit in, keeping most of the criticisms and corrections of others at bay. For the most part I think it works, but people still sense a coldness in me (or so I suspect), and I'm still the one person in the office that doesn't have a buddy, eats lunch alone, can't get into the groove of social office chat, etc. etc.

Okay, my current problem: Occasionally I'll meet someone I like a lot, which is rare, and then I'm really in a quandary. I'm not used to striking up casual friendships, so there's nothing easy about this for me. There's a guy I met at a contracting job recently, Martin, who really appealed to me. I'm not talking sexually, necessarily (I'm married and not looking for "discreet daytime encounters" or anything like that). We just clicked and started talking, because we were in the same situation--contract people who were basically auditioning for the same permanent radio position. We pretty much knew it was going to be either him or me, but we didn't feel competitive. We just joked around and gave each other support, and it was fun. He said he reminded me of himself when he first started out in radio, and I think I kind of developed a father-figure thing around him, though I'd be surprised if he's even ten years older than me.

Anyway, so I got a call yesterday that Martin has gone, so they need me to fill in. I'm feeling sad because I sort of feel like I edged him out, though it turns out neither of us was hired for the full-time position--I only got dibs on a part-time gig, and as I understand it, the same was offered to Martin, but he needs a full time job. So he left yesterday. I sent him an email, saying I'd like to stay in touch and have a brew sometime, but he hasn't responded and now I'm wondering if I did something wrong. I'm constantly worried about breaking social rules and making faux pas, because I'm sometimes oblivious to social cues.

I'm all worried now that Martin thinks I'm a lame dork, that I shouldn't have sent the message, that it was somehow inappropriate to communicate with him after he left. Maybe he thinks I'm coming on to him, or maybe I just barely registered to begin with. He enjoyed shooting the breeze with me, but now that I'm not around...outta sight, outta mind. Or it's possible he's so busy looking for work that he can't respond to me.

But I'll be stung by this if he doesn't answer, and it's going to make me more cautious in future. I feel like just giving up on the friendship thing. I thought it would be fun to have a new friend, and now I'm thinking: WTF! Get ahold of yourself, frosty! You're a lame loser and nobody gives a damn about you, so next time don't even bother trying.

This is too long by half, but I'd just appreciate your ideas on this...Should I keep trying to connect with him, or keep beating myself up about having risked it (it feels so good when I stop), or just move on?

posted by frosty_hut to human relations (20 comments total)

Don't be so hard on yourself! I am actually painfully shy and have fought it very hard my whole life so I can relate to this. And now when I look back on myself in similar situations, I think "Wow, I really needed to lighten up." Obviously I don't know either of you but I wouldn't take it personally that he didn't write you back yet. I've stayed friends with quite a few people that I used to work with over the years. Sometimes it's nice, even if you don't end up following through and becoming friends in the end, to just sincerely tell another person "I really enjoyed working with you & I really like you. I'd like to keep in touch, that would mean a lot to me. Can we do that?" It's also a nice thing for a person to hear sometimes. I've called up people I used to work with and said "You know, I was just thinking about you and I really wanted to know how you are? What are you up to? How are you doing? I miss talking to you." Doesn't mean you're expecting them to become your best friend or that you're trying to bed them or stalk them, it just means that you are a person who cares about them. And that's never a bad thing.
posted by miss lynnster at 10:13 AM on April 20, 2007 [4 favorites]

It's only 24 hours or so since you sent the email, so try and relax. Not everyone checks their email every day. I don't think you're doing anything wrong. It's really really hard to make friends sometimes, even for what you call "normal" people ;)
posted by iconomy at 10:15 AM on April 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Yeah. You have got to just stop thinking about it. I tend to overthink stuff I said or did or didn't say or didn't do to the point that I feel overwhelming shame and embarrassment.

And then I think what a normal person would actually think about this, and realize that it is not that big a deal, and most people in society don't obsess about every little thing, so if they're not worried about it, I probably shouldn't be.

And I can tell you, that a nice friendly email asking someone to stay in touch is something normal people would find perfectly regular. So don't worry about it.

And if he doesn't respond, that doesn't mean he thinks you're a freak. It just means he didn't respond to your email. That's it.
posted by mckenney at 10:19 AM on April 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

I second relaxing. I’ve definitely obsessed myself into the ground checking my email hourly wondering WTF was up... Four days of that later, I was in a froth, and lo and behold the nice person wrote back to me. "hey I just got your email..." things work out nicely too, once I got my heart rate back into the double digits.
Aparently not everyone comes with a gmail IV.
posted by French Fry at 10:21 AM on April 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

Yeah, making friends sucks. It was easier in school, but that was twenty years ago for me and now I hardly know how to begin.

What you did wrong: absolutely nothing. He may not stay in touch with you, but that doesn't mean you did anything wrong by letting him know you'd want to. So stop beating yourself up right now.

Making friends works much better when you have something to do together. Do you and Martin have things you both enjoy/like to do? Wait a couple of weeks, then you could propose something specific. Just hanging out is a bit much for someone you're just starting to know socially (rather than professionally).

Martin may still choose not to keep in touch. While this is discouraging for you, that doesn't mean you handled it wrong. It just means that he liked hanging out with you at work but he keeps a separation from work and personal life.

If you do want to make new friends, the best way is to get out and try to join a group of some kind. You won't make friends right away, but by showing up every week over the course of, say, six months you can begin to connect with some people.

Extreme fear of strangers and new situations makes this difficult of course, but you can familiarise yourself with the physical location of whatever the group is before going the first time to meet people; and depending on the group you may not have to say anything at all at first.

You could perhaps work with a Cognitive Behavioural Therapist to find things to do that contain the potential of making friends while containing your distress at the strangers and new situations within reasonable limits.

Other people will have better advice, but I just wanted to say that it's not just people with extreme fears who have trouble making friends at work.

Good luck.
posted by kika at 10:21 AM on April 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

In honesty frosty I think you share a relatively common and perfectly normal anxiety felt by people about rejection. Not only is less than 24 hours a short time for some people to respond to an email, there is always the chance that Martin here is struggling with various issues/second guess-ings himself, or he may just be very busy right now and hasn't had the time to write back. To comment on the issue at large it seems to me that you are perfectly capable of meeting and talking to people and must be charismatic on some level if you are beating other people out in contracting jobs. Being hired for a job is rarely as simple as the most qualified candidate. I would like to submit in this case that you are a classic introvert and your anxiety is telling you things that are not true. Perhaps these are over amplified observations of human character and contact. Hold steady for Martin in this case, he very well may email soon, but going forward perhaps your introversion is not seen as coldness by others maybe people find you intimidating; intelligent and quiet people often seem unapproachable (which sometimes creates this negative feedback loop). Since you say you seem to most easily connect wit people who you have an excuse to speak with (similar interests/pursuits, etc.) why not try something like meetups or craigslist groups set up for people who share your interests. If you like books go to readings, if you like plays see some where there is panel discussions, if you like music go to shows. Overall I would say stop beating yourself up in general. I believe you have the ability and the charisma inherently, you just need to build your confidence a bit. Good Luck.
posted by winterhat at 10:28 AM on April 20, 2007

1. You are a lame loser.
2. Nobody gives a damn about you.
3. Be as you are

Lame losers should stick together. Don't go looking for Martin. Go looking for some lame losers that give a damn. You really can’t throw a stick around here without hitting a few of them. Fore!

You don't like most people, and they don't like you. This is my experience of other peoples' experience, making you perfectly normal.

I think the trap you've fallen into is that you think there are wildly popular people out there who enjoy exciting social lives. Most people are lame losers in some way or another. They aren't having that good a time.

Consider also that Martin is currently unemployed. Not the best time to try and start a conversation.
posted by ewkpates at 10:46 AM on April 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Sending him an email was not wrong or a faux pas, so don't beat yourself up. But I often run into old co-workers or classmates, and we have a nice chat in the grocery store, and as we part one of us says, "Call me sometime!" and the other person nods and says, "Sure!" And as we walk away, we both know that we will not actually call or go out for lunch, that this is just a thing you say when you run into somebody -- a gesture which conveys the pleasantness of the acquaintance, but not an avenue to future plans. By not calling, we aren't "rejecting" each other as friends; we're simply acknowledging that our lives have moved in different directions, and that we don't have the time or the energy to pursue a closer friendship right now.

Martin may view your email in the same way -- as a social gesture, but not a solid invitation. Something to appreciate, but not follow-up on. "Let's get a beer sometime" is a polite gesture. "Would you like to get a beer next Thursday, at My Favorite Bar?" is an invitation.

Don't be stung if he doesn't reply, and don't give up on pursuing a friendship with him or anyone else. Try inviting him to go with you to a lecture or a networking event for your professional field sometime soon. That will make your intentions clear, and provide you both with something interesting to discuss.
posted by junkbox at 10:50 AM on April 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

I'm like you, frosty_hut, and the thing that's hard for people like us is that forming relationships is a numbers game. If you and a super-outgoing person both try to make a friend, you're equally likely to succeed (or fail). (This has actually been studied.) The difference is that when you fail, you beat yourself up. The extrovert says, "oh well" and tries again. For every one person you reach out to, he reaches out to 30. So of course, the odds are in his favor. Eventually, he'll find a friend. And the finding part doesn't feel like work for him, because he reaching out to people is just what he naturally does.

When he -- or you -- does reach out, there are a zillion reasons why it might fail: the chemistry (not necessarily of the sexual variety) needs to be just right, both parties must be looking for (or open to) a new friendship, both must have the energy to start and maintain a friendship, etc. I've certainly had great people reach out to me and -- though I haven't been so rude as to not reply -- I've failed to return their friendship. And it's not because I disliked them. There's nothing they could have done (and no one they could have been) that would have made me more receptive. I just didn't feel like making a new friend at that point.

Some people compartmentalize work. I tend to do this. I've almost never moved a work-relationship (no matter how much I liked the person) into a leisure-time relationship. It's not a rule that I have or anything. I just don't think of work-people as potential friends (no matter how much I enjoy working with them). My wife is the opposite. She hangs with her office-mates all the time.

Anyway, who knows why he didn't get back to you. But whatever the reason, it probably has nothing to do with you.

One thing I've NEVER heard. I've never heard anyone say, "so and so wants to be friends with me. What a loser!"

I take it back. I have heard that. In high school school. From assholes. I don't know any adults who act or even think this way. I'm sure they're out there, but they're rare and you can probably spot them a mile off. They glow with arrogance.

Most people are flattered when you pay attention to them, whether they take you up on a friendship or not. Most people don't naturally think of others as losers or dorks. You really have to work hard to seem like a loser in most people's eyes. If you believe people see you that way, realize that it's a form of egotism. Most people don't think about you that much, one way or another.

I have a friend who, like me, is painfully shy. I'm so glad that I know him, because while I can't be objective about the way people view me (like you, I easily fall into the belief that everyone thinks I'm a dork), but I can see how they react to him. I hear what they say about him. It's almost all kind. People realize that he's quiet and shy, of course, but that doesn't make them hate him or think badly of him. They don't always work to draw him out or be his friend -- but most people don't do that sort of work. He may never reach out to them; but they are there for him if he does.

Your work friend might never get back to you, but I agree with others here that you haven't given him long enough. I live on email. Partly this is because I have to (for work), and partly because -- as a shy person -- it's an agreeable form of communication to me. If you email me, I'll probably get back to you in ten minutes. And it always throws me that other people aren't glued to their screens. But many aren't. I know people who check their email once a week. I know people who check it daily (even hourly) but -- for whatever reason (having little to do with how much they like me) -- wait for days before replying. They just don't see it as urgent and they don't know that I'm anxiously awaiting their reply. They're not anxious sorts of people, so they can't understand that.

I just received a reply to an email I wrote THREE MONTH AGO. They reply was really warm and friendly. The replier clearly didn't think there was anything odd about the lag.
posted by grumblebee at 11:17 AM on April 20, 2007 [8 favorites]

"Let's get a beer sometime" is a polite gesture. "Would you like to get a beer next Thursday, at My Favorite Bar?" is an invitation.

Read that over 100 times!

"Let's get a beer sometime" puts the ball in his court. He has to invite you out or nothing will ever happen. No one wants to initiate these things, so it's not fair (or realistic) to expect him to do it when (supposedly) you are the one reaching out. This fact of life utterly sucks for us shy folks, but it IS a fact of life. We can't put half-assed feelers out there and hope someone braver than us picks up on them. It doesn't work.

Also, not that Martin is a man. (Most) men don't deal well with subtlety. If you're asking a man out (even on a platonic date), you MUST specify time, place and activity. Or he simply won't get it. At least that's how I work. To me, "let's get a beer sometime" is the same as "maybe we'll meet again some day ... who knows?" It simply does not register as an invitation.

READ THIS!
posted by grumblebee at 11:35 AM on April 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

Since your description of yourself is similar to the way I am, I will guess that you probably prefer to have only a few close friends at one time. As such, after the person left, you are probably feeling some sadness at the separation. I don't have a solution for that except to muddle through it, but at least recognize that those natural feelings may be there. It will let you off the hook for having those emotions, and will also help to keep you from doing anything rash.

Otherwise, from your description you sound like a pretty normal person, who just happens to be more solitary than average. There are people at my work who won't even go to the bathroom without someone with them, let alone lunch. Sometimes I envy their social skills, but mostly I am glad for the privacy and lack of interruption. The drawback is that with so much time to think, one can get stuck in detrimental thought patterns like the ones in your post. Get a hobby that will occupy your mind and give you a break from worrying.
posted by ken_zoan at 11:35 AM on April 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

You now have a standing offer to go out for a beer with the guy. That's it. If he wants to go, he'll contact you sometime. If he wants to go soon, or wants to stay in contact in the short term, he'll contact you sooner.

The reasons don't matter, all that matters is you're not filling up your social calendar with this particular guy at this very minute. I have a friend who I sent a rather wordy email Monday of this week over lunch. I hadn't heard anything back by Wednesday afternoon so I was kind of scared -- was I weird in the email? Abrasive? I dropped her a little note, and she responded that she was on vacation and just got back and was still going through her backlog of messages. This is a friend I've emailed many times and I still wondered how she was responding.

Realize that the guy may not have even seen your message, or he read it and he's busy, or one of another million reasons you have absolutely no reason to dwell on. The offer is out there, just be pleasantly surprised if you get a response.
posted by mikeh at 11:48 AM on April 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

There's lots of good responses here - you did nothing wrong & you do not deserve to beat yourself up.

Just to give you the perspective of someone who's been in Martin's shoes and has had trouble responding to invitations ... people have invited me to go out for drinks after work, or join them for lunch, or come to a party. And it could very well be because they wanted to strike up a friendship. However, I'm really shy - I've been diagnosed with social anxiety disorder. What I think throws people is that I've become very good at hiding my insecurities. I can joke around with anyone, seem completely open & friendly, have long conversations, etc. However, I'm always anxious that these "invitations" are maybe just made out of politeness, or because they feel bad for me, or some other reason. And as such, sometimes I don't respond to casual offers to hang out, if they are in any way vague.

I'd give it a couple of weeks. You not only have a reason to want to keep in touch because of potential friendship, but since you're in the same field, you have the additional excuse of seeking networking opportunities. If he doesn't get back to you in a week or two, and you want to give it a shot, I'd drop him a line and ask to meet over beers to pick his brain about something or another, or find some other half-professional/half-fun excuse to hang out.

Good luck - and don't beat yourself up! Absolutely no one dislikes a person because they were friendly.
posted by tastybrains at 11:51 AM on April 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Right, tastybrains. One possible scenario: frosty_hut wants to be friends with Martin but is too shy to make an outright overture. Martin wants to be friends with frosty, but he's too shy to latch onto a subtle invitation that, for all he knows, might have been just politeness. People feel so alone and so fearful of rejection. So they dip their toes into the social pool and quickly pull out. No one takes a plunge. Everyone is lonely. Everyone waits for an invitation but no one invites. It's a sad and funny world.
posted by grumblebee at 11:59 AM on April 20, 2007 [4 favorites]

Work friendships are very difficult to translate into the real world for some reason. I can think of 4 examples off the top of my head where I tried to have a follow-up friendship with someone who I no longer worked with, and it just didn't "take". I can think of 2 or 3 others where I just didn't even try to follow up, and just let the other person drift out of my life aside from memories of how fun it was to work with them. I can only think of 1 where it kept on going for several years. And this is out of about 20 years worth of work experience, and I'm basically an extrovert. So don't beat yourself up, as other people said, and keep your expectations low, but I think it's still worth a try to take the advice of people above and make an effort to continue, especially if it's difficult for you to make friends and you really felt a connection with this person.
posted by matildaben at 12:04 PM on April 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Aside from all the great things written above, I think you need to understand that a friendship for a single guy with a married woman is a tough trick to pull off. A lot of guys would feel uncomfortable in that kind of situation. If he doesnt get back to you, dont take it personally. He may feel that he cant handle this kind of friendship or that you might be coming on to him. He's also unemployed and probably feels a lot worse than you do right now and isnt up to socializing at all.
posted by damn dirty ape at 12:59 PM on April 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Wow, so many good responses in here.

You did nothing wrong. That, first and foremost, is what you have to take away from this discussion.

But after that, yeah, it is hard sometimes making friends at work. And even away from work for that matter.

I'm a life-long affirmed extra-extrovert, and also a Southerner. Therefore, I can strike up a conversation just about anywhere with just about anybody.

But yet still there have been times in my life I've wanted to add to my stable of friends and been unable to.

"Work friends", in my opinion, seldom work out to be real friends. This is not universal, as I have 2 friends I am very close to that I met through work, but is a more-often-than-not scenario. That's 2 out of maybe 50 "work friends" that moved to the outside of work realm.

For whatever reason, one I'm not even sure of myself, going to lunch with someone during the day is often very different from going to dinner with them after work.

All kinds of things can hinder your ability to make friends while at work. For instance, in my current job, I am "the boss", so trying to make any kind of friendship with my co-workers is practically impossible. Even though I'm blessed and my company is filled with fantastically nice people, practically noone is more than an acquaintance. And then you worry if someone does become more than an acquaintance, is it inappropriate?

The way you describe the situation, you did nothing wrong, and you are probably premature in worrying that he has dissed you.

However, understand that, statistically, it is unlikely he will want to make more of the relationship since he is gone. That is nothing personal against you. It's just the way things go sometimes.
posted by Ynoxas at 1:04 PM on April 20, 2007

I'm all worried now that Martin thinks I'm a lame dork

Well, if he does then fuck him. I personally refuse to ever feel badly about making an overture of friendship and you shouldn't either.

Anyone who thinks poorly of you for liking them and inviting them to do something is a shit person who you shouldn't regret being rejected by.

Being rejected by someone because they just didn't click with you the way you clicked with them is nothing to feel bad about- it takes all kind of taste to spin the world.

So feel good that you had a pleasant conversation and interaction and made an effort to make a new friend. Anything else is gravy.
posted by phearlez at 2:31 PM on April 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Actually, for someone who feels uncomfortable socializing, I think you did a pretty good job in relating to this guy and in reaching out to him afterward.

Don't sweat his non-response. People do not respond to overtures from others for all kinds of different reasons. Some of them make sense and others do not. You should feel proud for having taken the initiative, and try it again next time.
posted by megatherium at 3:48 PM on April 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

1. No, you didn't do anything wrong here.

2. "Let's get a beer sometime" is a polite gesture. "Would you like to get a beer next Thursday, at My Favorite Bar?" is an invitation.

junkbox, you're my hero! You've just made my life so much more understandable, this makes so much sense.

3. I can go months without answering emails; it's a character flaw (procrastination, basically). While it may be offputting to some, I don't do it to be mean or anything--it's nothing they did or said. It's just me. So there are plenty of reasons he hasn't emailed back yet that have nothing to do with your fears.

And I am going to go answer some emails now. If it makes you feel better, you've provided me the catalyst to work on my own friendships.
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 9:02 PM on April 20, 2007 [1 favorite]