I don't want to participate in her imaginary competition

April 17, 2007 10:53 PM

I have a taekwondo nemesis. How can I deal with her?

This will be long but I'll try to pare it down. I am in a taekwondo class for ex-pat wives and mothers. It meets three mornings a week for about 90 minutes and up until recently has been a challenging but fun way for me to stay in shape and have some interaction with the other women in our expat community.

Most of the women in the class are beginners, meaning they have rarely exercised before and have never done martial arts. The class is made up of women with various degrees of belts — from white-belted newbies to a few multi-degree black belts. I am on my brown belt (two belts away from black), have been in the class for almost a year, and expect to test for my black belt in September.

The woman in question, my nemesis, was actually the person who convinced me to join. She is the head of the class (she's been there the longest and has the highest belt level — third degree black) and up until recently she's been very fun and laid back in the class, helping to teach me and some of the other women.

Over the past few months, however, she has become extremely competitive in the class. In addition to the three morning classes she is also now attending the two evening classes a week where she trains with Korean boys who've been practicing TKD for half their lives. More and more, it feels like she's trying to outdo or prove something to the other women in the class — examples include kicking opponents as hard as she possibly can during spars and making backhanded comments before and after class about the rest of our devotion to the sport.

I'm taking TKD quite seriously, can't wait to test for my belt, and am in the class for the good it does for me only, not to prove anything to anyone else. I in no way want to be part of a pissing contest. Most of the women in the class see it solely as a way to stay busy and healthy — half of them aren't the least bit interested in advancing belt levels. In fact, I'd venture to say that's part of the draw of the women's class — it's more laid back and less serious than the evening classes.

The last straw was Monday's class, when I was paired with the Nemesis as a kicking partner. As head of the class, it's her job to assist us with form and poses. She wasn't happy with the way I was holding the pads for her, but instead of trying to help me improve my stance, she kept sighing and saying loudly to the rest of the class "Can I get another partner?"

This is infuriating because I have seen her do it with other students as well. She's good friends with the instructor's wife and has repeatedly asked not to be paired with certain people in the class. I almost feel like telling her that if the morning class isn't challenging enough for her she should stop coming, but alas, it is not my place to do so. (And I would rather handle this in the most civil way possible).

This recent change in her attitude has made me dread going to TKD at all. I'm upset by this because I am so close to getting my black belt, but it's really made TKD no fun whatsoever. I don't feel as though I can address this situation with her privately without making it worse — she's a notorious gossip and we live in a small community anyway. My instinct is to just ignore it or put up with it, but I still have five months to go before my test and I don't know if I can suffer in silence that long, not to mention what happens after my test (I don't want to get my black belt and then just quit because of the way someone else is making me feel).

How can I deal with her while continuing to enjoy the class and the sport?

posted by Brittanie to human relations (34 comments total)

I would suggest that you talk to the instructor about it.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 10:56 PM on April 17, 2007

If you're in Korea, there are plenty of other places you could go work out. If you're afraid to go to the instructor, you should check out some other dojangs. Don't worry about testing for the black belt. If your ability is the level it should be at, you should be able to test at another place in about the same amount of time you would at your present class. And, of course, knowing and applying techniques are far more important than rank.

And if you do find a new place that's great, you can tell the other students that she intimidates about it, and they can have fun again, too.
posted by ignignokt at 11:18 PM on April 17, 2007

If it's just not possible to ignore her, then I think you're stuck with the equally unattractive options of either trying to talk to the instructor and let him/her (sounds like a him) that she makes you uncomfortable, and then of moving to a different class if nothing happens. I don't think there's anything you can do to change this woman's behavior. She sounds like she's just an asshole, and trying to modify the behavior of assholes (with anything less than things that will probably land you in prison) is usually doomed to failure. (What's the Heinlein quote? "Don't try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig?" Well, she's the pig, and rational social behavior is like singing. Don't bother.)

Maybe you can find someone in the class that you get along with, one of the other women, and work/partner/spar with her, and just try to ignore the hypercompetitive one.

I really think the only solution here is to find a way to not let her behavior bother you, realize how ridiculous she is for making a fun activity into something not-fun, and just stay away.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:23 PM on April 17, 2007

Can you kick her ass?

This is a serious question.
posted by borkingchikapa at 11:24 PM on April 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

I think your only real option is to talk to the instructor. If that doesn't work, try talking to her directly. And if that doesn't work, you'll have to either learn to ignore her, or find somewhere else to go.
posted by robcorr at 11:27 PM on April 17, 2007

Well, maybe you shouldn't be making this as adversarial as she is. Calling her your nemesis in a martial arts studio brings to mind ritualized dueling and people grabbing sharp, pointy weapons off the wall. I think you need to stop focusing on her and just concentrate on having a good time whether it means ignoring her or just leaving. Surely you've run into people like this before and had to deal with the situation somehow. You're not joined at the hip, right?

(I am now imagining a KungFu duel between siamese twins. Awesome. In a three stooges kind of way.)

Oh, and when she was asking for another partner, why didn't you just walk away? Staying after something like that is just way too passive-aggressive and pretty much lets her know she can still get away with it.
posted by IronLizard at 11:36 PM on April 17, 2007

Huh. I'd simply refuse to be her partner, and proclaim loudly you disapprove of her altitude, perhaps suggesting she get her hormones checked, and, btw, is that a moustache she's sprouting?

(Of course, I am not known for my social fineses. But life is too short to take shit from someone else's pecker contest.)
posted by Goofyy at 11:42 PM on April 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

I forgot to add, in this sort of situation, you're likely to be greeted by a chorus of agreement from the other students. I only do that sort of call-out when the transgression is obvious to all, but no one else willing to speak out.
posted by Goofyy at 11:44 PM on April 17, 2007

She's feeling tough and wants someone to knock the chip off her shoulder so she can "legitimately" kick some ass. It happens when people start lifting weights and get strong, it happens when people start training in the martial arts and sometimes people develop it later. Or she may be operating on trickle-down jerkiness that she gets from the boys she trains with who can kick her ass without breaking a sweat?

Talk to the instructor and let him know what's going on. Bullies in any class are supposed to be left up to the teacher to deal with.
posted by fenriq at 12:01 AM on April 18, 2007

ooooo. I'd be careful in a tiny expat community. I certainly wouldn't confront her. I'd put my energy into my TKD and see if I could kick her ass. She is teaching you the lesson of the shitty trainer. An important lesson - a lesson that is part of your TKD. Opponents will try to psyche you out, and you will fight opponents that you hate, fear and have fought before. Put up with it for 5 months. She's more powerful than you (for factual, not moral reasons) in this context and it's wise of you to note this. Art of War, baby.

You don't KNOW whether you can put up with it or not. Try! If you can't, oh well. Meanwhile, try to relax and de-stress after your class. To beat her in class, kick her fuckin' ass.

She's an aggressive bitch. Her life is tiny and meaningless and she's focusing on this TKD class and bossing the women in it for that reason. Have pity on her. You go home to a meaningful life and she goes home to tiny teeth in her heart that make her mean to others.
posted by By The Grace of God at 12:02 AM on April 18, 2007 [9 favorites]

Hey. This is a tough situation when your rival is close to the instructor. It is the instructor's responsibility to be keep this sort of thing in check, and if he won't police it, you may not have much recourse. Here are some things I'd consider, were I in your position. (I've trained in MA for about 7 years total, and have seen a bit of the politics crap, unfortunately.)

1. Can you switch schools? Your profile says you're in Korea, so I can't imagine there is a dearth of TKD schools. This is a last

2. Attend the class with the tough guys. It's the only way to get good, anyhow. This sort of trial by fire is intimidating, but will ultimately pay off; being pushed really hard will put your game through the roof. The improvement you'll see may make you less likely to do something to frustrate her. Or alternately, you'll just get better than her, and kick her butt.

3. Approach the instructor. If I were you, I'd couch the conversation in terms of 'this sort of behavior is interfering with my enjoyment of the class, and I'm thinking about quitting.' You may not even need to mention the woman's name, and the threat of you (and potentially others) leaving the class will hit the instructor where it matters-the bottom line.

On the whole, though, something has to be done. Competitiveness in martial arts classes has to be dealt with carefully, as it can poison the attitude of a school. In an ideal situation, you develop a really special bond with your teammates; at the same time that you're competing with each other, you have to trust each other to be as safe as possible. Being too caught up in petty crap ruins that, and that ruins one of the very special benefits of the martial arts.

Good luck. Hope you can get this sorted.
posted by HighTechUnderpants at 12:03 AM on April 18, 2007

Agree with BTGOG - use this.
Minor (in the cosmic sense, not belittling how dull and irritating this must be) hassles make you stronger when you go through them and become what you want to be anyway. See her as an opportunity to learn inner calm in the face of a world of wankers; see through her and situations like this.
posted by Abiezer at 1:01 AM on April 18, 2007

Simply talk to the instructor as an aside, and request that you not be paired with the nemesis as a partner. No need to explain why and be firm.
posted by Manjusri at 1:28 AM on April 18, 2007

If you are determined to deal with her yourself then there is no "civil" way to do it. You have to sink/rise to her level. Next time she says "Can I get another partner?" you say just as loudly (or louder) "No. You have to deal with me now. Now quit crying like a baby and get to work or find another class at your level."

And yes, I am serious. Be as abrasive as possible. It sounds like she has outgrown the challenge of this class and is looking for someone to stand up to her. Saying something like the above will either gain her respect (you stood up to her) or it should humble her a little bit.

Or, if you simply can't muster that kind of response (it can be hard depending on your personality) then you need to quit calling this person "your nemesis". It just adds needless drama. She's only an annoying person. Talk to the instructor about it. If they won't do anything, change schools.
posted by Ookseer at 1:43 AM on April 18, 2007

Just to be clear, the use of the word "nemesis" is my attempt to be as light-hearted as possible in this situation. I don't honestly feel like I'm at constant odds with this girl, I just feel like her approach to the class has become contrary to what most of the other people in the class feel the spirit is.

Healthy competition is one thing but trying to behave as if you are the toughest in the class (when you are obviously already at a much higher level than anyone else in the class) is going a little overboard. In casual practice sparring, for example, it is pretty unnecessary to kick your opponent as hard as possible, especially when that person is several levels lower than you.

I would try to avoid teaming up with her but this is a near lost cause, since the class involves a lot of rotating between partners.

The answers saying to stand up to her/belittle her are frankly not my style, and I'm concerned that doing so will encourage her even further to try to "prove" herself. I did tell her immediately after her comments Monday that I was doing exactly what the instructor said to do, and then asked her what she wanted me to do different, to which she responded with silence, so I don't feel like I'm being passive-aggresive.

I am considering speaking to the instructor and his wife. Part of what's making this difficult is that I am half expecting to be greeted with answers saying "You'll have to toughen up if you want to earn your black belt" and "You've been doing this for a year now." At this point changing schools is not an option for several reasons, including the fact that I life in a very small town and that I really love the dojang and the other women in the class.

I am also interested in going to one night class a week (and can probably avoid going to the classes she goes to) in order to prep for my test anyway, so hopefully this will improve my skill level enough to deal with her appropriately during activities in the class and to feel confident enough not to give a shit when she constantly complains. My current goal is to simply meet her negative comments and attitude with as much outward humor as possible, regardless of how much seething I am experiencing inside. I'll see if that works first.
posted by Brittanie at 2:15 AM on April 18, 2007

the threat of you (and potentially others) leaving the class will hit the instructor where it matters-the bottom line

This has a lot of potential. You say she is treating others in the class badly as well -- are others thinking of dropping the class? If you talk to the instructor en masse (or one of you as a representative for the others) and give him an "it's her or us" ultimatum, perhaps he will come up with a way to gently suggest that she move exclusively to the night classes.
posted by Rock Steady at 4:33 AM on April 18, 2007

There's nothing that takes the stuffing out of a nemesis in martial arts more than gaining the upper hand in sparring.

Yes, she's advanced beyond you. But everybody has their weak points. She sounds like a powerful and effective kicker. Learn to assess when those kicks are coming by watching her body language, then defend.

Does she let her guard down? Is she poor at blocking particular punches? Keep your head together when sparring, and challenge yourself to find these holes in her technique. With each sparring match, you'll improve your "read" of her skills -- and lack thereof.

Look at her meanness and competitiveness as a challenge that can be overcome in the sparring ring.
posted by Gordion Knott at 4:49 AM on April 18, 2007

I second borkingchikapa.

There are few situations in life where laying the smackdown on somebody is socially acceptable. This is one of them. Embrace it! Hai-ya!
posted by rentalkarma at 6:19 AM on April 18, 2007

Sounds to me like talking to the instructor might not work, and there's the fact that the instructor sounds closer to Nemesis than to you. Other solutions seem pretty dramatic.

I know you say you don't want to stand up to her or belittle her, but it seems to me that her loud calls of "Can I get another partner?" afford you a good opportunity. One idea would be to call, equally loudly, something like "Make that two, please!" This may make her realize that she's being difficult for you to deal with, too, and to grasp that she may not be able to do better than you anyway (which she may already realize). At the same time, it's kind of a "submit" behavior that she may not consider so challenging to her dominance.

Responding with, "Step right up! Don't be shy!" might also be funny, but could signal too clearly her unpopularity with the others, if that's the case.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 6:20 AM on April 18, 2007

Your post says that a fellow Tae-Kwon-Do student, who was once helpful and laid back, has become ultra competitive. Could there be a reason that her attitude has shifted? You say you are going for your black belt promotion in a few months. Is she going to be tested for promotion soon as well? Is there an upcoming competition that she is preparing for? Does she do this with everybody? Is she being specifically tough on you because you will be receiving your black belt? Those would be temporary shifts, and you wouldn't need to leave or anything.

Or do you think it's something more permanent? Do you think that she goes to these other classes and sees your women's class as being somehow less tough? Could she be being (for example) kicked full force in her evening classes and is just passing it downhill?

There are different ways that I have seen problems like this handled. It is easier with instructor assistance. Admittedly I practice something different from TKD, but in my art, one way to handle bullies is to pair them with people who are better than them. If the bully tries to hurt them, they can make it hurt (without doing serious injury). The bully usually realizes that they are not as good as they think they are, and that people are watching them.

Another method I have seen work is to decline to practice with them. (This depends, I think, on how laid back your school is.) If everybody refuses to practice with her (politely), it does send a message that this is a cooperative undertaking and you are not there just to be a pad holder and training dummy.

Finally, you could always talk to her about your concerns. A nonconfrontational "Hey, I noticed you're become really tough on everybody, what is up with that?" wouldn't necessarily create any bad blood. If she's just passing on things she's picking up from her evening TKD classes, maybe she doesn't realize it.
posted by Comrade_robot at 6:28 AM on April 18, 2007

Maybe she's trying to "Teach you a lesson". I know lots of people who think they're badasses feel that it's their duty to teach others how to be as badass as they are. It's goddamn annoying, but if she doesn't respond to requests to just knock it off, you either have to sic the instructor on her(which she'll take as a sign of weakness) or kick her ass.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 7:05 AM on April 18, 2007

My current goal is to simply meet her negative comments and attitude with as much outward humor as possible, regardless of how much seething I am experiencing inside. I'll see if that works first.

Ok, after your reply it sounds like you've tried to be completely reasonable. She's just trying to pick a fight with someone (anyone, apparently).
Reacting with humor is one way to go and it's good to prevent escalation but can seriously stress you out. I suggest bringing a baby bottle or pacifier to class with you. Hand it to her the next time she starts complaining about something.
posted by IronLizard at 7:19 AM on April 18, 2007

Not to sound like a jerk, but are you sure you're holding the kick pads right? I practiced TKD for a few years before getting injured and I hated pairing up with people who couldn't hold the pads right. You could get hurt and so could the nemesis.

Other than that, sounds like she isn't in the spirit of martial arts. It should be fun and you should practice for your love of TKD, not beating up on people or belts. It's just the nature of martial arts to attract aggressive jerks. It let's the beat up people in a socially acceptable place. I had a few guys who were always too serious and always 100% during light sparring. What did it take? I practiced hard, and hit them with 100% power. After a while it stopped.
posted by m3thod4 at 7:20 AM on April 18, 2007

Behavior like that would be unacceptable in any martial arts situation I've seen. Unless specifically told otherwise, more advanced people are expected to help those who know less. That's how they got to be more advanced in the first place, after all. Kicking as hard as she can in class situations is also both unsafe and shows a lack of control that is usually required in martial arts. Quite frankly, it sounds like she is not a very good martial artist, even if she has trained for a while. Talk to your instructor at some point, perhaps not about her behavior, but about what he suggests you do about it.

My suggestion is to ignore it. No, not to ignore it, but to move past it. You are training to improve yourself, not to beat other people. Unless her complaints are preventing you from being able to practice, just move past them and focus on doing the best TKD you can do.
posted by Schismatic at 7:38 AM on April 18, 2007

Along the lines of what By The Grace Of God said, let her know that you have learned much from observing her actions and attitudes. She has made you work on being a better sparring partner, taught you how to focus on your own training and abilities despite distractions, and shown you how important it is to be a good and welcoming partner and mentor to the other people in your classes. If she is trying to teach you a lesson, then thank her for it.

Be vague about which of her behaviors your are talking about but be genuinely grateful because she is teaching you valuable lessons for when you have that black belt. Smile, keep up the good humor, and move on. This leaves it up to her to think about her behavior instead of making it your job to suggest how she can change her ways.
posted by peeedro at 8:01 AM on April 18, 2007

As an alternate suggestion, learn Jujitsu, she wont be expecting joint locks or blending techniques.
posted by koudelka at 8:15 AM on April 18, 2007

Your post says that a fellow Tae-Kwon-Do student, who was once helpful and laid back, has become ultra competitive.

This strikes me as a key observation. If I were to confabulate a backstory for your situation, it would go something like this: the instructor and Nemesis are having an affair; her attitude went south when he did not leave his wife for her as she expected; she is acting out to demonstrate to him her superiority as a mate (can your wife do this?) and to sublimate her frustration. In this view, she expresses contempt for the rest of the class and competes with them partly because you all stand in for the wife, but also to raise the heat on the instuctor.

Also in this view, the instructor is doing a lot of sweating which doesn't have anything to do with exertion, and would love to find a way out which isn't going to wreck his marriage. At this point my imagination fails, unfortunately, but there could be an explosion soon no matter what you do.
posted by jamjam at 10:26 AM on April 18, 2007

There was a woman in my old TKD class who was a little bit like this. One week, she got it into her head that foot-to-male-groin contact was suddenly acceptable during light contact sparring.

The guys all got together and talked about it. The next class session, every single one of us waited for her kick to the groin. When she attempted it, we knocked her flat on her ass. Eventually this negative reinforcement terminated the unwanted behavior.

The moral of my story is not that you should knock her flat on her ass, but it is that you should talk it over with your classmates and figure out a unified plan of action. However, in these situations, turning up your level of aggression a little bit is rarely a bad idea.
posted by ikkyu2 at 10:35 AM on April 18, 2007

a) Pay a street thug fifty bucks to rough her up one night after class; she will quickly realize that she is not a bad-ass outside of a highly controlled environment. This is only kind of a joke.

or

b) Start serious resistance (weight) training, take extra classes with advanced students on the side, and when you're ready "accidentally" hit her as hard as you can during your next sparring session.

Small, petty people do not respond well to reason, and if she is making your experience unpleasant, you either need to suck it up and take it or deal with it swiftly and decisively.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:18 PM on April 18, 2007

Not to sound like a jerk, but are you sure you're holding the kick pads right?

No, I'm *not* sure that I'm holding the pads right. But as panjangnim (head student), i's her job to help me learn to hold the pads correctly when I'm making a mistake, not to roll her eyes and sigh about it.

I honestly believe that this behavior started when she began to attend night classes. I don't think it's mindless trickle-down from the aggression she experiences there. I think it's more likely along the lines of trying to "toughen me up" for the first dan test or trying to prove how much farther she's trained than the rest of us.

I appreciate everyone's attempts at making me laugh, it has helped a lot, and starting next week I'll be going to one night class weekly to see if I can't learn to match her skills.
posted by Brittanie at 3:19 PM on April 18, 2007

Good on ya for trying out the night classes. Wanted to add one more thing, and also clarify a typo. My first point above should have read 'This is a last resort.' You probably figured that out, but it bothers me to leave it hanging.

And one other thing I forgot to mention, is it possible that your recent success has her feeling threatened? Are you beating her in sparring, all of a sudden? If this is it, you might be able to defuse, or partially defuse the situation with a sincere compliment. Since the change is recent, and she used to be helpful, you might, someday, say something like 'Hey-I just wanted to mention that I've really appreciated all your help, it's really improved my game.' If you give her some of the credit for your improvement, it may make it less a threat to her 'top dawg' status.

That may not be the problem, of course, but it's a thought. And of your two recent explanations, the second seems more likely than the first, unfortunately. Toughening you up would just be going hard with you in sparring; the snarky comments kind of make me think it's something else.
posted by HighTechUnderpants at 3:57 PM on April 18, 2007

I'd say talking with her is your best bet. Just tell her hey, I want to learn from you but when you get angry like that I find that I'm not learning from you at all.

Also kick her ass.

I'm a long-time lurker at your blog, so keep us updated.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:41 PM on April 18, 2007

a) Pay a street thug fifty bucks to rough her up one night after class;

Quick way for a foreigner to get arrested and deported in Korea, even if you could find a 'street thug'. I'm assuming Brittanie would prefer not to be deported.

Yeah, I know you were 'half-joking', but for posterity's sake: very very bad idea.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:28 PM on April 18, 2007

Also, it occurs to me on rereading this that my old TKD studio had a couple of things up on the wall that were read aloud by all students at the start of the class.

The Membership Oath said: We as members train our spirits and bodies according to the strict code. / We as members are united in mutual friendship. / We as members will comply with regulations and obey instructors.

The Spirit of Tae Kwon Do said: Courtesy / A Sense of Honor / Humility / Patience / Self-Denial / Courage.

It's been 18 years and I remember these like they were yesterday; all that repetition printed them into my memory indelibly.

The way you describe your friends' actions, they violate a number of these tenets. She's in the wrong. If your studio has a similar code of conduct (most do), the next time she violates it, you could point it out to her, loudly.
posted by ikkyu2 at 6:45 PM on May 14, 2007