Escape from New York

March 23, 2007 6:37 PM

Escape from New York: Toronto or Minneapolis / St. Paul? My wife and I have decided to leave the Big Apple after 8 years by the end of this year. One option is to transfer within my company to either Toronto or St. Paul. Looking for opinions from Mefites on the respective merits of your burghs...

FWIW, I'm a management consultant, have what would be considered a great income anywhere but NYC, and have a 1 year old kid with plans for more. Wife doesn't work and is looking to have a community of other non-working moms if possible. Outdoor activities are important to us, as are good restaurants, a relatively left leaning, educated population, and a "cosmopolitan" feel. For reference, she grew up in Ithaca (we love it), and I grew up in Nebraska (not moving back). The weather is not a worry.

Thanks in advance for all your help.

posted by mtstover to society & culture (54 comments total)

You described Toronto exactly. St Paul, I don't know.

Non-working moms == The Beaches. Can't move for them.
posted by unSane at 6:44 PM on March 23, 2007

I'm from Toronto and I think it's a great city. I can't compare it to St. Paul, except to note that it has about 1/5-1/6 as many homicides per capita and free health care.

It's got lots of great restaurants (from cheap ethnic food of all kinds to plenty of high-end restaurants) and a very cosmopolitan feel - it's the most multicultural city in the world. You certainly won't have any trouble finding left-leaning people. Canada is more left-leaning than the U.S. generally, and big cities are especially liberal. Toronto hasn't elected a Conservative at the federal level in a while now. Of course, no city is monolithic. It sounds to me like you would not be happy in North York or Scarborough, for instance. (Toronto was amalgamated in 1997 out of the old City of Toronto and the cities of Etobicoke, York, East York, North York, Scarborough.) As for outdoors stuff, there are opportunities for recreation inside the city with parks and trails and beaches. But it'll be useful to have a car to get out into the country for camping and skiing, too.

What can I say? I love Toronto (though I live in Halifax right now - which I also love). I think it's the best city in Canada. It's got everything - arts, culture, food, energy. It's got good public transportation so you can go out at night and not need a car (BTW, I would recommend trying to live nearish to a subway line if you move there). It's safe to walk around (most places). It's not perfect, but based on what you're looking for, I think you'd really like it.
posted by Dasein at 7:01 PM on March 23, 2007

You'd need a visa to move to Toronto. Do you really want to mess around with that headache?
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 7:17 PM on March 23, 2007

I love Minneapolis/St. Paul, but it's not in the same league as Toronto when it comes to things like restaurants, cosmopolitanism, etc. For one thing, Toronto's *much* bigger--close to twice the population, I think--and has a much more diverse population. If you move below the world-capital class of cities (NY, London, Tokyo), I would put Toronto in the next level down, along with, say, San Francisco or Chicago. Minneapolis/St. Paul is definitely a level below that--Seattle would be a good comparable. That said, it's a great place to live if weather's not an issue, and meets some of your other criteria; politically progressive by US standards, great outdoors opportunities, and a strong family-oriented ethos. It's also got a strong economy, and is significantly more affordable than Toronto, though it sounds like that's not an issue.
posted by Kat Allison at 7:18 PM on March 23, 2007

*Tax and Salary Purposes: Easier in Minnesota than Canada.
*Climate: All things being equal, 'tis a tad bit warmer in Mpls.
*Excellent social net/ public schools in the Gopher State.
*Wonderful Cultural Resources in Mpls: Theatre/ Museums.
*Housing market in St. Paul: depressed--- US $ goes far.
*Squeaky Cheese readily available in Land O' 10,000 lakes.
(I'm obviously biased--- Toronto-based Me-Fites may counter with better arguments...)
posted by Dizzy at 7:20 PM on March 23, 2007

I have a hard time thinking of Toronto as cold these days. I mean, yes, it is, but not really.
posted by unSane at 7:31 PM on March 23, 2007

I've lived in Minnesota most of my life, and Minneapolis since 1994. I find Minneapolis-St. Paul to be a great metro to live in, though I think the comparison between Toronto and the Twin Cities is going to be a tough one to draw. Definite yes: an affordable house market that has been much more stables than some parts of the country, stay-at-home parent friendly, outdoor activities (Minnesota is, after all, the land of 10,000 Lakes, there is the Boundary Waters, Lake Superior and extensive State Parks), politically left-leaning and and educated populace. There is a good number (and growing) of great restaurants, although I feel like there could and should be more, particularly more and more diverse ethnic. There is a significant amount of theater, music (of all genres), cultural activities, museums, independent theaters, etc. - for the size of the cities. Which gets into downsides.

St. Paul proper is a much, much smaller city than Toronto - like an order of magnitude smaller. Minneapolis is somewhat larger but of a comparable scale. The whole of the Twin Cities and surrounding metro area, which is quite a sprawl that arguably extends into Wisconsin, has a quite large overall population (of a more similar scale though still smaller than Toronto). I have not been to Toronto since I was a kid but I doubt very much whether the Twin Cities are comparably "cosmopolitan." These aren't podunk towns but they are small cities with a Midwest character. Despite recent light rail editions the Twin Cities are car towns, particularly if you don't live in the city proper, and bussing full time is tough even if you do (I lived here with no car for 4 years so I speak from experience). While I have not personally had much trouble with crime (which is largely though of course not exclusively concentrated in certain trouble areas) the area at times struggles with crime rates that seem disproportionate to its size, and there is a certain amount of de facto segregation and racial tension which is significant in some communities. Again, this is an observation of what is reported and seems generally held to be true: I live in a quiet, racially diverse neighborhood within Minneapolis, quite near to downtown and I have not had any problem with crime, I am out and about on foot with my 2.5 year old with zero concern all the time.

So I'd guess if living in a big city with comparable amenities, and the perks of Canada (all that health care and low crime we're always hearing about) score high for you, Toronto (particularly from Dasein's recommendation) may call to you - if you're tempted by the attractions of a smaller city and prefer to stay in the U.S. I think Minneapolis would satisfy a lot of your desires. I wonder if anyone who's lived in both will show up?
posted by nanojath at 7:36 PM on March 23, 2007

Actually, Minneapolis/St Paul gets colder than Toronto in the winter. And slightly warmer in the summer.
posted by thecjm at 7:38 PM on March 23, 2007

Steven C Den Beste: when you move to another country for work, your employer generally takes care of things like visas for you.

I agree almost entirely with what Dasein said; i think that your list of desired city attributes totally describes Toronto. You'd probably like the Beaches, as mentioned, but also Yonge & Eglinton, or the Annex. Both are great neighbourhoods for walking around on treelined residential streets, walking to restaurants, coffee shops, and stores. They're all also well known for all the yummy mummies having coffee with their kids in thier high-end jogging strollers, to give an idea of the people and feel.

As far as Minn having a lower cost of living, that's probably true, but obviously the lower Canadian dollar will help to offset that. Keep in mind too, that with a metropolitan population of over 5 million, that you'll get a more cosmopolitan bang for your buck.

I've heard toronto described as "New York as run by the Swiss", and while that's a little ridiculous, it's true that is has a lot of what you love about NYC but with less crime, less traffic, lower costs, and well, a smaller size.
posted by Kololo at 7:48 PM on March 23, 2007

We live in Minneapolis and absolutely adore it. Most of the advice above is spot on, thought the one thing that was missed is that Minneapolis has one of the best urban park systems. I can't think of a neighborhood with homes further than a mile from a park, so you have a city sprinkled with neighborhood parks, but then on top of that, there's the Grand Rounds, where the Chain of Lakes, Minnehaha Creek, and the Mississippi River which string together miles of running and bike paths.

I will admit to really enjoying a week in Toronto a few years ago, but I always love exploring a new city.
posted by advicepig at 7:50 PM on March 23, 2007

Toronto has great neighbourhoods and a sucking vacuum where downtown should be. But the neighbourhoods are truly great places to live.
posted by Rumple at 8:01 PM on March 23, 2007

Come see Toronto. As unSane mentions, your description fits it to a tee. Also, the neighbourhood that unSane is describing has everything that you want in walking distance, long outdoor boardwalks along the beach, great restaurants and shopping, many families and stay-at-home mums/dads, good schools and a great community. In fact, many neighbourhoods in Toronto feel like this, sort of a small town within the big city. People will accuse Torontonians of being stuck-up or not friendly, but it's more like being reserved. People actually are friendly and helpful enough. Your good-salary-anywhere-but NY will go pretty far. Houses in that area (The Beaches, or The Beach) are getting pricey, but it is a popular area. I could easily name a handful of other neighbourhoods in Toronto with the same strong community feel: The Danforth, High Park, The Annex, Roncesvalles, Cabbagetown and more. Outdoor stuff? We have a ravine that runs through the city that is always filled with joggers and bikers. Skiing and the like is only an hour or so out of the city. Political leanings - yeah. Pretty far left. Cosmopolitan? It is the third largest English speaking theatre industry in the world after London and New York. It has galleries galore. A new opera house. New addition to our museum, and in fact to our main art gallery as well. Toronto International Film Festival. Toronto is going through a cultural boom. There is a huge diversity of people who live and have settled here. The ethnic neighbourhoods are defined, but are by no means exclusive. They are welcoming and open. They include several Chinatowns, Greektown, Little Italy, Little Portugal, Koreatown, Little India and more. The transit system is good, not great. Getting anywhere on the subway is pretty fast. Parking can be nightmarishly expensive, but only really in the downtown core. What else? I can't think of any more right now, but I urge you to come down for a weekend. (Only 1.5 hours by plane from NY! Bonus, you can still get back to see your friends/family on occasion!) I was born here and I will always be from here, even if I have to ever move away, so clearly I am biased. It's peaceful, tolerant, and people still try to live well. I love it.
posted by typewriter at 8:08 PM on March 23, 2007

Can't speak to Minneapolis/St Paul. Never even been in Minnesota, even for a flight change. For the past few years, I've spent 6--10 weeks in Toronto every year.

Obviously, Toronto is a bigger, busier city than MSP, and it has the character of a national city. But, here are some reasons to at least consider MSP. Note that I don't necessarily believe all of this myself, but I'm putting on my critical hat and hoping that people might reply.

Toronto is still growing *very* rapidly. And it's not growing well in several ways. First, the outlying suburbs are just gross. McMansions, and McMansion-sized townhouses, packed shoulder to shoulder with a lovely view of freeways and piles of big-box stores. The sort of areas where utterly anonymous subdivisions are named after the picturesque things they bulldozed or disneyfied. You'll have to drive through a whole damn lot of this stuff before you can get to anything really outdoorsy.

Second, the area just isn't set up to accept growth gracefully. The freeways are a nightmare. There's one and a half E-W routes (401 and the Gardiner, which only goes west from downtown), one N-S freeway that hits the city center (the DVP), and another way the fuck out at the airport that connects 401 and the Gardiner. All of them are packed all the time, and this is only going to get far, far worse as more and more people drive in from the outer suburbs. Nor is it at all feasible for Toronto to add more roadways into center-city. The subway is likewise groaning under its passenger loads, and while TTC seems to have plans to extend lines, it doesn't look like they plan to add more lines to service downtown, so all they're really doing is finding new and exciting ways to make the subway even more crowded.

Canada in general is not as friendly to consumers as the US. Expect to be unable to find at least some things that were common in the US. It's not Soviet Russia or anything, don't get me wrong. But even five years down the pike, my Torontonian bride is still occasionally surprised by stuff like how many different lean-cuisines there are available, or what you can get in Target.

I've no idea how cosmopolitan MSP is. Toronto certainly is cosmopolitan and diverse. On the other hand, there are still an entirely nontrivial number of yahoos in pickup trucks and uncultured fuckin-a Canadians at Timmy's or The Beer Store. And unlike New York, which is very strongly a racially multipolar city where *everyone* is some kind of minority, Toronto has come to feel more unipolar, like a city in the American South, except that instead of the divide being black/white, it's white/Chinese.

On the other hand.

Do you know whether your work would just sponsor you for work papers, or whether you'd be a landed immigrant on the path to citizenship? Then your kid could presumably become a dual national as well, something that might be a distinct asset in the future. And (AFAIK) any kids you had there would also be dual nationals from birth.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:08 PM on March 23, 2007

Don't get me wrong. If we could somehow afford a wee house, I'd live around Yonge and Davisville in a heartbeat. But these threads always seem to have people who live in the relevant towns talking about how good they are, so I figured it might be useful to talk about shortcomings.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:16 PM on March 23, 2007

The city of Minneapolis and the city of Saint Paul, put together, are about the size of Milwaukee. The majority of the metro population is in the 3-plus rings of suburbs. The metro area seems large because there's nothing else as large for hundreds of miles around (Chicago is a long day's drive to the southeast, the next large city going due west is Seattle).

There are two downtowns: one in Minneapolis and one in Saint Paul. Downtown Saint Paul has lost some business and shopping, but has made up for it by becoming more residential.

Minnesotans can be famously passive-aggressive, and I've known New Yorkers who have been quite annoyed by it.

Outdoor opportunities are everywhere, both nearby and up north.

In the cities proper, you'd have no problem finding good restaurants and a relatively left leaning, educated population. Cosmopolitan may be relative: I have a hunch that Toronto might win on that score, but I've never done more than change planes there.
posted by gimonca at 8:28 PM on March 23, 2007

Many Twin Cities freeways are antiquated and poorly designed, but I think a lot of the complaints about traffic around here come from people who haven't driven in Chicago, or Houston, or LA, etc. Mass transit has made some incremental improvement, but is still way below what you'd get in Chicago, for example, and outside the cities proper is mostly about commuting to work Monday to Friday. It's possible to live a nice life without a car--I have in the past--but vast swaths of the cities will remain a foreign country to you. Then again, those swaths don't have a lot of good restaurants in them.

If you look for housing in Saint Paul, be aware that house numbers follow a bizarre system that stretches 100 over several blocks. 900 and 1000 on a street aren't one block away, they're several. Numbers in the 2000s are towards the city limits. And you can get weird numbers like 788 or 1492. Minneapolis is much more normal--it was built out on a few cartesian coordinate schemes.

The suburbs follow an invisible line that still separates the "Minneapolis side" from the "Saint Paul side". Many Saint Paul suburbs have the same weird numbering scheme.
posted by gimonca at 8:45 PM on March 23, 2007

Parking can be nightmarishly expensive, but only really in the downtown core.

He's kidding, really. Parking in downtown Toronto is very expensive by Canadian standards, but incredibly, unbelievably cheap by New York standards.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:33 PM on March 23, 2007

I live essentially in Minneapolis (actually, 6 blocks West of the city line), grew up in NYC (Brooklyn) and spent a few days in Toronto about 20 years ago. That said, i suspect that Toronto is more cosmopolitan, as discussed by others. I think that the Twin Cities are very liveable cities, although traffic congestion has gotten much much worse in recent years. I love living here, and I'd be tempted by Toronto, I think.
posted by judybxxx at 9:55 PM on March 23, 2007

I'm American but went to school in Toronto (currently living in southern Ontario) and have friends in Minneapolis-St. Paul (so, been there a few times but not an expert). There are a lot of similarities between the two metropolises, and based on your description I think you'd probably be happy in either. I just thought I'd point out, from an ex-pat's point of view, a few things I've noticed:

- Everything ROU_Xenophobe said about Toronto is very, very true -- more than I would have thought before I got there. The traffic and sprawl in particular must be seen to be believed, especially in relation to the city's size (big, but not LA or NYC big).

- The Canadian dollar is currently at about $0.90 US, and has been that way for the past year or so (forecasted, last I heard, to continue rising) so your money won't go too much further here than it does in the States.

- US-bashing is quite in vogue up here and it really starts to get under your skin after awhile. Quite a few times, people who know I'm American have said some pretty rude things to me, apparently under the assumption that I'm a stereotypical "American;" but more commonly people assume I'm Canadian and bash Americans -- as though Americans are one monolithic entity -- and I'm left with the uncomfortable choice of whether to keep my mouth shut or defend myself. It probably sounds like I'm making a big deal out of nothing, but like I said... it starts to get to you.

Now, I say all this not to discourage you from picking Toronto, but just to prepare you for when/if you go. There is some seriously fantastic food to be had all over the city, and the art galleries, opera, ballet, symphony orchestra, theatre and local music scene are all fantastic. I think my point is that it's easy to discount the fact that Canada really is a foreign country, and if you're only planning on this being a one or two year adventure, the effort it takes to get acclamated might outweigh the benefits. (But that's just my opinion, I've only been up here for a few years myself, the other posters all raise very good points, YMMV, etc...)
posted by AV at 10:24 PM on March 23, 2007

I'm biased towards my hometown of Toronto, and most people have noted all the important details. No slight against Minneapolis /St. Paul which I'm sure is a lovely place... but really, Toronto is a place with heart. I'll try and keep my comments above the belt - hopefully my love for the place should show, though:

typewriter's comments really do hit on the good stuff on why people love it in T.O. Definitely visit T.O. to get a feel for it. I agree with what typewriter said - I too was born there and always consider myself from there even now that I've moved away. I used to wish I was in Montreal or Vancouver when I was a wanderlust-y teenager; now I can see Toronto for what it is - an international city that's as good as any else anywhere. Native Torontonians will laugh at the stereotype of 'Toronto the Good' (a.k.a. Ustinov's excellent 'New York run by the Swiss' comment), but honestly, it's just a lovely place to live in all aspects that matter.

Picking up on Dizzy's excellent list, I'd revise it thusly for T.O.:

*Tax and Salary Purposes: Less tax and salary in Minnesota (although hard to estimate - if you're management consulting it's probably comparable). Having said that, the taxes you pay support the social infrastructure of Canada, including a little thing we're rather proud of called 'health insurance'. The cost of living in Toronto is probably not that different than NYC - rents in the downtown office core are harsh, let alone the housing! - but it can be managed carefully. Advantage: Canada (err, Toronto)

*Climate: Probably equal in both; Toronto's had a lot of mild winters the past ten years, though (although that's global warming for you). Advantage: tie, and from both your backgrounds it doesn't seem like a little snow will bother either of you.

*Excellent social net/ public schools: both. See also above point re: social safetynet. Advantage: Toronto

*Wonderful Cultural Resources: in Mpls: Theatre/ Museums (I'm taking Dizzy's word for it); in Toronto, god, where to begin. You name it, we have it. Other posters have mentioned the vast selection of activities.

*Housing market in Toronto: depends on what you're looking for. Tends to be expensive in parts - lots of condos, etc., but things can be had if you look carefully. Advantage: Mpls. (slightly)

*Squeaky Cheese readily available in Land O' 10,000 lakes: Um, advantage Mpls I guess, although there's a great Cheese Shop on Bloor right in the heart of the Annex...

AV, sorry to hear about some rude experiences regarding 'US-bashing'. Canadians are known for their politeness, so those people who were rude to you don't speak for the rest of us. I don't know if US-bashing is really an issue so much as something that can occur upon occasion. I can appreciate that it must be aggravating to hear. Know that if it comes out, it's out of aggravation that many Canadians feel towards American hegemony, and with much disagreement with American foreign policy. Americans we have no problem with; if you get to see a rare display of Canadian pride (nationalism) it may seem to come off as 'American bashing', but it's a little bit more nuanced than that. Point being that hopefully you'll experience the more friendly aspects of Toronto (and Canada). Since it's the world's most multicultural city, I think you'll be able to see why so many people from all over call it home. Toronto doesn't feel unipolar at all - the breakdown is not 'white/Chinese'. We have three unofficial Chinatowns, but we also have a huge amount of immigration from all over - which helps contribute to the cosmopolitan, tolerant, busy, fascinating city that it is. As for traffic problems, welcome to living in a big city (2 1/2 million in T.O. alone) - not enough of a reason to vote against a place unless you plan to live in the middle of the Don Valley Parkway, and if you've been in NYC you're used to it. A downside, but transportation is a means to an end, and not the reason to count the city out.

As Dasein says, Toronto isn't perfect - no place is! - but it's damn near beautiful, and a great city to raise a kid in. Email me if you have any questions. Sorry for the length - I just miss my hometown and love to spread information about it. Your description does fit to a T - come up to visit and experience the 'oronto' part ;)
posted by rmm at 12:02 AM on March 24, 2007

This was 13-15 years ago and may not still be the case, but what impressed me about downtown Minneapolis was how clean it was ( I came up from Iowa City a few times to see concerts).

I flew into Toronto the day before 9-11 and left the 22nd (which was my original schedule). It seemed that it had proportionately more young homeless/addicts than NYC. Seconding typewriter's comments otherwise--there's a good tram system too.
posted by brujita at 12:20 AM on March 24, 2007

As long as you stay away from the 'burbs, they're both great, progressive places to live. Spend a week in both and see which one you take to more.

A few pro-MSP notes from this Minneapolis partisan:

Echoing what gimonca said above, you can get around most of Minneapolis and St. Paul quite easily using the bus system. If the bus doesn't go somewhere, that somewhere probably isn't worth visiting.

Minneapolis has a mind-boggling park system. You can loop 3/4 of the city without ever leaving it. In addition, Minnesota and Wisconsin both have a number of really nice state parks within an hour of the metro.

We have a great--dare I say World class--arts and music scene. A small sampling:

Walker Art Center - One of the best contemporary art museums in the country.
Minneapolis Institute of Arts - Our extremely encyclopedic art museum. You can spend a couple of days in there without repeating anything.
The Guthrie Theater - The Guthrie played a major role in redefining regional theater in the United States.
Theatre de la Jeune Lune - It started in France, and somehow ended up here. It won a Tony in 2005.
(I'm ignoring The Weisman Art Museum, The Ordway Center for the Performing Arts, the Hennepin Theater District and a bunch of St. Paul museums as I don't want to be writing this all night.)

We also have a great local music scene. And no, I'm not just talking about Prince.

The food here isn't as good as in Toronto, but we're making dramatic improvements in that area. (Local institution La Belle Vie recently came in at #30 on Gourmet Magazine's top 50 restaurants in the United States.) Eat Street in Minneapolis and Grand Avenue in St. Paul are great for restaurant tours.

Parents have a significant amount of control over where their kids go to school, and there are a lot of high-quality K-12 programs available (especially if you can get your little one(s) into an Edina program).

Regarding the weather, both Minneapolis and St. Paul have extensive skyway systems. (In Minneapolis you can leave home, go to work, take care of groceries and dry cleaning, grab lunch, see a first-run movie, fight city hall, work out at the YMCA, argue a case in court and go to church without ever stepping outdoors.) The Mall of America has an enclosed amusement park, and there are a number of indoor waterparks and other similar recreational venues scattered across the metro. That said, I've lived up here for over 10 years, and the weather is nowhere near as bad as people say it is. It's probably more chest-thumping than anything else.

Finally, the people are friendly. Yes, some of the natives are passive-aggressive and will be nice to you only to keep you at arm's-length, but there will always be plenty of Wisconsin, Iowa and North/South Dakota expatriates more than willing to be neighborly.

That said, if you want to live down south, Toronto is nice, too. I've been there many times and know that Toronto partisans could probably match just about every plug I just put in for the Twin Cities. As I said earlier, they're both great cities. If you can, spend a few days in each one and see which one feels right.

Good luck!
posted by mrbula at 12:51 AM on March 24, 2007

I've spent a lot of time in Toronto, its a great city but speak as an American ex-pat (London, England, about ten years now), if you're seriously considering leaving the US you better get someone to model your tax situation.

What appears to be a minor detail can have a excessively large impact - where it hurts, in the paycheque - if not approached carefully.

For example, recent changes in the relevant tax rules that apply to ex-pats saw a large number of my buddies, who were happily living and working in Europe on full ex-pat benefits (the employer pays for housing, tax equalisation, home trips, child education, etc) hit with ENORMOUS and RETROACTIVE tax bills.

By contrast, ex-pats like myself who are on local European contracts actually had our bills reduced (not retroactively, but you can't have everything!).

I'm not trying to scare you off, living abroad is a wonderfully mind expanding experience, and you never will really know a country until you've lived there for several years. This is an excellent opportunity.

The point if there are ways things such as taxes can be structured to your advantage, however this requires careful planning and, almost always, professional advise.

Best of luck!
posted by Mutant at 3:53 AM on March 24, 2007

Another vote for Toronto from someone who loves it dearly but doesn't know M-SP. Re: AV's comments (and sorry you felt that way), my experience with US-bashing was different. While there was some, it was generally focused on specific issues (why is this happening, i can't believe this political move, etc.), rather than overly generalized bashing. It was actually quite similar to my conversations with my left American friends. I found that I acclimated quickly (within a few months) and leaving after two years was hard. I'll second the praise of everyone here re: restaurants, museums, concerts, transportation, etc. I still think of TO as my ideal place to live.
posted by bassjump at 5:55 AM on March 24, 2007

In today's Toronto Star re: city living and suburbia around the Greater Toronto Area (GTA). Hey, reading local papers might give you a good feel of places too!
posted by typewriter at 6:18 AM on March 24, 2007

I live in downtown Toronto, and can attest to the mommy community. One of my friends has a 6 month old and she is out at various mommy groups practically every day — meetups at coffee shops, swimming, learning sign language for babies, tons of stuff.

I've been to one of the coffee-shop meetups of the New and Expecting Toronto City Moms Meetup Group, and half the fun is seeing such a racially diverse group of babies! Super-nice people, too. I've also heard good things about the Toronto Hip Mama Meetup Group.
posted by heatherann at 6:22 AM on March 24, 2007

I also know nothing about Minneapolis. However I lived in NYC for seven years, before moving to Toronto, where I've been for about 18 months now. If you have any specific questions about the transition, email me. It's a reasonably big, pleasant city with all the culture, neighbourhood diversity, good food you could want. I think almost anyone can be happy here and echo all the positive comments above. Here are some things which seem minor but (being used to NY) we've found to be quite big headaches.

Canada in general is not as friendly to consumers as the US

Yeah, the charges, quality of customer service and level of competition in things like cellphones, banks, cable TV was a colossal shock to us. Seems minor, but we've been pulling our hair out over these quite a lot. Certainly more than we should have to.

Canadians (or maybe just Ontarians?) LOVE beauracracy. They seem to have regulations, permits, backup requirements and multiple government departments for every. single. thing you want to do in this place. What I find is that in NYC people can be incredibly rude to you but will ultimately be flexible and work with you; in TO government or customer service people will be very friendly and nice but will not go out of their way at all to help you out.

The cushy health insurance you probably have (I did) as a consultant with choice of multiple docs, ability to drop in any time, no waiting times for nothin', and multiple tests every visit if required will be missed.

The prime minister seems to hate cities. The ugly suburbs mentioned above are growing and people here seem worried that Toronto will get shafted because of this.

Inexplicably for a major city, you can't get a subway before 9am on a sunday. There is a HUGE car culture here (coworkers will drive 6 blocks to go to a meeting!), and suburbanite commuters I deal with seem quite venomous about public transit. Public transit is decent, but of course nowhere near the same quality as that in New York.

Sales taxes were a shock.

We miss hispanic culture!

Flights to Europe (where we have a lot of family commitments) cost a fortune flying from YYZ instead of the tri-state area. No direct flights to Dublin, WTF Toronto?!

All just the opinions of one Euro and one Asian expat. Incidentally, TO is just as diverse as NYC, but I have found workplaces (my own and clients') to be more diverse - in NY in professional situations I often found myself one white person among a building seemingly full of white people. This may be the industry I work in though, I suppose. And professionals can actually aspire to own property here, which is great!
posted by jamesonandwater at 6:26 AM on March 24, 2007

Parents have a significant amount of control over where their kids go to school, and there are a lot of high-quality K-12 programs available (especially if you can get your little one(s) into an Edina program).
I would not recommend Edina if you did choose MSP. I was forced to go through there and it was terrible. The teachers feel like hanging out with students during class. instead of teaching, and the social atmosphere is snobbish. Don't even try it, it's nothing to be desired. Edina scares me, the only great teachers were the band directors I had. I really was inspired by them.
posted by wheelieman at 6:32 AM on March 24, 2007

Both Toronto and MSP are great cities. Each has a fantastic arts scene, great outdoor activities, and good schools and health care. The upside is that you can't lose.

A couple of notes:

I hate flying in and out of Toronto; the airport is a disaster. MSP is far superior and has very cheap direct flights to Asia (if you're into that).

Toronto has better and cheaper restaurants than MSP. I can't explain the price difference; most things seem to cost a bit more in Canada.

Toronto is colder than MSP, but is also not as muggy in the summer. MSP winters are similar to those in Ithaca.

One of the things I like about MSP is the dualism of the two cities. St. Paul feels like a small city, very child friendly, and neighborhoody. Minneapolis is younger and has a more vibrant nightlife. You can have either when the mood strikes.

Minnesota politics are whacky (which alternates between fun and infuriating).

Both places have a great university/college culture. UofT is a huge part of downtown Toronto. And in MSP, the U and the five colleges are also prominent.

I hate to quibble with everyone's perception that Toronto is bigger than Minneapolis-St. Paul, but it isn't. It is a bigger city than either individually, but Toronto's population is 2.5 million and the Twin Cities metro is nearly 3 million. That said, Toronto does feel larger in some respects.
posted by B-squared at 8:14 AM on March 24, 2007

Canada in general is not as friendly to consumers as the US. Expect to be unable to find at least some things that were common in the US. It's not Soviet Russia or anything, don't get me wrong. But even five years down the pike, my Torontonian bride is still occasionally surprised by stuff like how many different lean-cuisines there are available, or what you can get in Target.

As an American in Toronto, I totally agree.

As for the American bashing, haven't experienced it at all. Not at all! People who discussed US stuff with me went out of their way to emphasize that they understood all Americans weren't like that, and that it was nothing personal towards me. I'm far harsher on Americans in general than people I've talked to here.

In fact, I had a much worse time being a Californian living in Ohio. Boy, did I get some mean comments there.
posted by Melsky at 9:19 AM on March 24, 2007

Not to nitpick, but B-squared's population figures are comparing the population of the city of Toronto with that of the entire six-county Twin Cities metro area. Toronto's metropolitan area is close to 5.5 million, compared to the Twin Cities' 2.9 million or thereabouts.
posted by Kat Allison at 9:58 AM on March 24, 2007

The Twin Cities metro has 13 counties.
posted by mrbula at 10:31 AM on March 24, 2007

And unlike New York, which is very strongly a racially multipolar city where *everyone* is some kind of minority, Toronto has come to feel more unipolar, like a city in the American South, except that instead of the divide being black/white, it's white/Chinese.

I have to disagree with this. This may be true of Vancouver, but not of Toronto. Unless maybe you live in Chinatown.

I also have to disagree with the "car culture" comment about Toronto. That's not my experience. Certainly it's a city where, depending on where you live and work, you can get by without a car altogether.
posted by Dasein at 11:31 AM on March 24, 2007

I'll also disagree with the "car culture" comment about Toronto. I've lived here for five years (3 in North York, 2 downtown). I have never owned a car and don't intend to own one. Most of my friends are car-free, even those with children. My car-owning friends live in the suburbs, but usually take transit (GO, TTC) to work.

For the times that we do need a car (Ikea!), we use car sharing.
posted by heatherann at 12:17 PM on March 24, 2007

I was about to strongly disagree with that bit about unipolarity Dasein just did. I lived in Toronto for nearly a decade (moved away in '03), and I found it to be more deeply diverse than any other city I've seen. Even teeming NYC, for example, feels tripolar white/black/Hispanic in comparison. I lived in an apartment overlooking Bloor at Ossington during the '98 World Cup, and literally every single game precipitated a little street parade. For the record.

Also on the cosmopolitan front: I don't know MSP at all, but I can't imagine it's even in the same league. Toronto is Canada's prime metropole, its New York or London. It's not as staggeringly big and complex as either of those cities, but it does have certain kinds of amenities and energies that only a country's primary city will. It's the financial centre, the media centre, a major film production and theatre capital, and on and on.
posted by gompa at 1:02 PM on March 24, 2007

This may be true of Vancouver, but not of Toronto. Unless maybe you live in Chinatown.

All I can say is that it feels a lot more like that now than it did when I first started making regular trips to Toronto in 2000.

I also have to disagree with the "car culture" comment about Toronto. That's not my experience.

Even if it's not you or your friends, *somebody* is in all of those cars that keep the DVP and Gardiner and 401 clogged all the time. And given that it's more car-centric places like Milton and Vaughan and Richmond Hill that are growing explosively, this is only going to get a lot worse before TTC and GO finally catch up to the growth.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:40 PM on March 24, 2007

My comment about the car culture was intended as an "in comparison with NYC" thing. I've also never owned a car in my life, but of all the major cities I've lived in (NY, Dublin, Amsterdam, now TO) this is without a doubt the place I've felt the most professional and social pressure to have one. Probably irrelevant anyway, if they have kids they'll probably want a motor.
posted by jamesonandwater at 2:34 PM on March 24, 2007

Toronto is colder than MSP, but is also not as muggy in the summer. MSP winters are similar to those in Ithaca.

I was surprised to hear this since, Minneapolis is famous for cold winters, so I went to weather.com to look it up. Minneapolis wins the cold weather award easily. Ithaca is the warmest.

Average January temps (the coldest month in all three cities)

Minneapolis high 22F/-6C
low 4F /-16C

Toronto high 27F/-3C
low 12F /-11C

Ithaca high 31F/-1C
low 14F/-10C


I liked Minneapolis a lot and it is definitely a nice place to live, but I think Toronto is more of an "international" city although surprisingly Toronto reminded me more of Los Angeles (minus nice weather) more than it did New York. Can't explain why. Toronto was very diverse, although not as diverse as NY, sorry, anyone who thinks NY is just black/white/hispanic has never been to Queens, but if it is a matter of 180 nationalities vs 170, I mean how much of a difference is there?

Personally Toronto would win although I was surprised by how ugly the 'burbs were. But then again Toronto has Tim Horton's and a beautiful lakefront!
posted by xetere at 4:51 PM on March 24, 2007

Okay, as a Torontonian (and ever will be, no matter if I'm away or not), I do have a few quibbles and corrections:

And unlike New York, which is very strongly a racially multipolar city where *everyone* is some kind of minority, Toronto has come to feel more unipolar, like a city in the American South, except that instead of the divide being black/white, it's white/Chinese.

ROU_Xenophobe -- everything you say about the suburbs is true, but seriously, on this point, are we talking about the same city? Here is a breakdown of the population of Toronto. People of Chinese descent do make up a significant percentage, but by no means outnumber non-white people of other ethnicities, and that statistic on "white" hides a hell of a lot of diversity - Italian, Greek, Macedonian (don't mix those two up), Polish, Croatian, Orthodox Jewish, Portuguese... (At one point I though I had heard that Toronto was officially more non-white than white, but that may have been before the amalgamation). Over 43% of all Torontonians are born outside of Canada.

I grew up in a Carribean/Italian/Anglo/later Somalian neighbourhood (I was the Anglo) - and that was in the outer more suburban areas of the city, let alone in downtown. I moved a 20 minutes walk north, and there the neighbourhood is South Asian/Middle-Eastern/Croatian (and Anglo, since my mother is still there). We do have a Chinese grocery store across the street, but the customers are just as likely to be West African. When I moved to the US, that was the first time in my life I ever experienced what it was like to live in a racially divided city (bi-polar, or rather, tri-polar), and I had some culture shock dealing with it.

(on preview: several other people have said the same thing)

I hate to quibble with everyone's perception that Toronto is bigger than Minneapolis-St. Paul, but it isn't. It is a bigger city than either individually, but Toronto's population is 2.5 million and the Twin Cities metro is nearly 3 million. That said, Toronto does feel larger in some respects.
posted by B-squared at 4:14 PM on March 24 [+] [!]

Toronto would feel bigger because that 2.5 million is the city of Toronto only. The GTA, or the Greater Toronto Area (aka the city and the suburbs together), has a population of 5.5 million, making it the fifth largest metropolitan area in North America (48th in the world).

-----------------

What people have said about the GTA suburbs (Vaughan, Missisauga, Markham) being horrific car nightmares is completely true. But you wouldn't even be looking to live anywhere near there.

If you were interested in moving to Toronto, you would obviously stick to Toronto proper - that is the city of Toronto, aka the 416 (named after the area code) and the blessed land served by the TTC (Toronto Transit Commission, aka my lifeline for the first 25 years of my life). If you step beyond the borders of the 416, you have to change transit systems, and this bad. Do not go north of Steeles, do not cross the Etobicoke Creek. (I'd also say to avoid East of Yonge, but that's because I'm a West End chauvenist). If you like small urban neigbourhoods, the nicest areas are all to be found in the old, preamagamation cities of Toronto and East York from just north of Bloor (the subway line) south to the lake, though there are some nice hidden gems like Thompson Orchard neighbourhood in Etobicoke near Royal York & Bloor - not overly posh like the nearby Kingsway area (mansions), just very nice and semi-urban.

Toronto proper is served by a great transit system - It has far fewer subways than New York, but they are cleaner and simpler, and they connect up to the bus system well. And only $100 CND/month for all you can ride on bus and subway. I lived for 25 years in Toronto and my parents never drove and I never drove. If you live on the subway line, as my parents-in-law do, you will be between 20-40 minutes to downtown. The neighbourhoods along the Bloor line are better than the Yonge line, and not that crazy in the morning (I did used to get on near one end, that helped in getting a seat).

The car culture thing is very 905 (another area code, aka not Toronto), but there are also carish suburbs in North York, Etobicoke and Scarborough. You can get TTC in these last three (not in the 905), but it's long to get anywhere and primarily used by poor people (like me). My parents-in-law (who have one car they use relatively infrequently) tell me that some fellow professional people express surprise that they don't have two cars, but those also tend to live in the more suburban areas. My friends who grew up in Old Toronto and other urban areas never drove anywhere, even when their parents were well-to-do; many of my friends who grew up in suburban Etobicoke did, except those of us who were poor or who (like my husband or my best friend) were in that bit of Etobicoke with a subway. Basically, when it comes to car-culture, places on the Bloor subway line and south to the lake vs the rest of the city is like comparing Manhattan and Jersey, only without the river, and with 24-hour transit within the whole 416. (jamesonandwater is comparing Toronto to cities which are either a) European or b) much larger. I can easily imagine that Toronto is more car centric than Amsterdam, but for a North American city under 6 million, it's very transitable and a transit-friendly culture. Certainly you would have nothing like the experience of that poor woman from Normal (linked in this post) if you chose to live without a car.)

The other important thing to know about Toronto is that there is a West End, and an East End. If you live in the West End (everything from Etobicoke over to the Annex), you have no reason to go to the East End. If you live in the East End (from Scarborough to Cabbagetown), you have no reason to go to the West End. The Downtown is an un-easy neutral zone, to the south there is the lake, and to the north, Uptown (St Clair, etc), which is just kind of nice and slightly boring. The East End has the Beaches, the West End has the Annex; they each have a Chinatown, and there is a third Downtown. The two ends aren't perfect reflections of each other, but they duplicate all of the services, and sometimes eeriely whole subway stations. (One of the subway stations out in the East End has the same design as Islington subway, only bigger. We decided it was clearly part of an evil mirror universe, and got back to our comfortable West End as soon as possible.)

-------------

Anyways, I obviously could go on about Toronto forever. I'm sure MSP is a lovely city/are lovely cities. They may not have any roti for sale, but I'm sure they have other great food.

But the biggest part of your decision will obviously be the fact that Toronto is, undeniably, in another country. It's not the States. People complain above about not being able to buy certain things in Toronto because they were looking for American things - I thought the US had terrible selection in consumer products, because I was looking for Canadian goods. Funny enough, the UK doesn't sell Canadian products either.

Changing countries means visas, tax issues, your children attending school to learn that the Canadians won the war of 1812, studying French (although very badly, unless you do immersion). It means crossing a border when you want to visit home. This is not something to be taken lightly.

You may even have culture shock. We may sound like Americans....okay, like Americans with broadcast accents, but we aren't.

You wouldn't be alone - as I said, 43% of Toronto or more are immigrants and many are American. But it's something to remember when deciding - MSP is another city within your country, Toronto is a city which is closer to NYC (physically and perhaps psychologically), but it is in a different country.

Also, you won't get any free health care unless you become a landed immigrant and even then you have to reside in Ontario for 3 months before you can use it. My husband has that fun wait when he gets back from the UK. And if you are a fan of Mexican food, our Mexican and Central American community is relatively small (we don't really have a "Hispanic" community, since Hispanicness is not usually perceived racially in Canada - a friend of mine was amused by how she stopped being white whenever she entered the US). Where I lived in the States, there was a large Hispanic community and I could get great black beans and cheap fresh cilantro. I really miss that in the UK, though the access to South Asian spices is obviously better here.
posted by jb at 5:28 PM on March 24, 2007

Just to add to my point about emmigrating - I don't want to presume anything about you, but if you have not immigrated in the past, you have to realise that in Canada you would be an immigrant, and thus somewhat Other. You could be an almost invisible other, if you have a northern American accent without any notable regional features, but an Other nonetheless.

I didn't realise what that would mean until I started living outside of Canada; I have never felt more Canadian. People will talk about the United States, and no, they will not always be respectful. What some people perceive as "America-bashing" is also known as heated criticism of a powerful neighbour who's foreign and trade policy has recently often gone against Canada's interest, and whose culture is overwhelming our own (at least in English Canada). People will have strong feelings about your country, in reflection of the fact that it is a strong country.

To be honest, I'm not sure what would be worse - travelling the world and hearing my country being bashed, or watching the glazed look come over people's faces as they realise they know absolutely nothing about my country, even if it is only a short drive away/speaks the same language and has the same Queen (in the case of the UK).
posted by jb at 5:56 PM on March 24, 2007

jb: When I first started coming to TO in 2000, everything you say rang true. But over the past few years, it feels more and more like white folk in Toronto are defining themselves as not-Chinese. I'm not even sure why this seems to be the case -- maybe a combination of comments here and there, and body language on the streets. It's really a matter of feeling and tone and atmosphere. But Toronto used to be a real breath of fresh air to me. Now it feels much more familiar racially, and not in a great way, since what I'm used to is the American South. Of course, I could just be seeing stuff that isn't there; it's not like I interview every person passing by.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:03 PM on March 24, 2007

What people have said about the GTA suburbs (Vaughan, Missisauga, Markham) being horrific car nightmares is completely true. But you wouldn't even be looking to live anywhere near there.

That depends on where his office would be. If it's downtown, great. If he works for Accenture, he's got to get out to Mississauga every day. No doubt other consulting companies have set up shop in the newer complexes in Richmond Hill or Markham or points north, in which case living out there might be very sensible (if unfortunate).

People complain above about not being able to buy certain things in Toronto because they were looking for American things

I personally assure you that this is not the case. More that different classes of goods seem to have a much more restricted range than in the US.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:15 PM on March 24, 2007

ROU - I was in Toronto a week ago and spent a lot of time moving about. Are you sure you aren't judging the city by certain areas? Markham, perhaps, or the University of Toronto (which does have a large percentage of Chinese and Chinese-Canadian students)?

As you can see from the pie-chart I linked, there are just as many South Asian people in Toronto as there are Chinese, though, of course, that is divided between many different cultures and languages. (Just as that huge, meaningless slice of "white" is.)

I have heard that there are some areas up out of the city where there are some large Chinese communities which have some tension with the established people, and I had witnessed some of that tension in Vancouver suburbs, especially around 1997 (when people from Hong Kong were emmigrating in large numbers). And I know UofT has had some tension with Chinese students feeling unrepresented in the faculty, since they were a great proportion of the students. (I actually went to York, where in terms of ethnicities other than white it felt more Jewish/Middle-Eastern/Caribbean as well as Asian.)

But moving and shopping in my mum's neighbourhood (central to northern Etobicoke) for a few weeks, I met very few Asian people. Like I said, we have a Chinese grocery store, but I actually have no idea why. I think it was just cheap retail space, because most of their customers are not Asian, but African, Middle-Eastern and white. Not that I'm complaining - the vegetables are cheaper and fresher than they ever were at Loblaws. When I ride the bus, I see as many or more black and brown people than Asian, and that's seems true of most of the city outside of the historic "Chinatown" areas, which are themselves mixed (Vietnamese, Korean, etc).

Outside of shopping for a wok, I've actually never defined myself as "not-Chinese" (it is a bit hard to convince people that you want a traditional steel wok when you don't look Asian, but we got through eventually). In different situations, I have been in a minority and thought of myself as "not-black", "not-Eastern European", "not-Italian", "not-Jewish", "not-Somalian" or simply "not-an-immigrant" -- and increasingly I realise it is the last that is, of course, the significant one, since I don't share that experience common to so many other Torontonians. (Since the majority of the "white folk" I grew up with idenitified as "German" or "Equadorian" or "Polish" or "Down Easter" - yeah, the last are Canadians, but they are still immigrants to Toronto).

--------------

As for the goods, if you are talking electronics (especially American-brand computers, mp3 players, etc), you can correct from the US vs Canada to the US vs the rest of the world, and it's the US that restricts the access. All of the computers or electronics over here in the UK are more expensive and come out later. I won't be surprised if one day I see iPods priced in £s exactly the same number as they are in USDs - they are getting close.

But seriously - what are you shopping for that you can't get in Toronto? Alcohol - the LCBO has way more selection than the dinky liquor stores in the US, same price or cheaper (though not as cheap as the UK for wine). Cigarrettes? Canadian brands are better, but smoking is bad for you anyways. As for food, you can't even get Fry's Cocoa in the US, you have to settle for Hersheys, yuck. Guns are more restricted, true. I've never shopped for one, but people tell me that.

Maybe I'm just not a serious cosmopolitan shopper, but I saw a great decrease in my shopping choices when I moved to the US because I moved to a smaller city, and size mattered most (same with being in the UK - we have terrible shopping in my current city, which is so tiny it should be a town except for the historical city status). I have never have shopped at a Target, so maybe they are magical cornucopias of your wildest dreams. But I think I can forgo the Lean Cuisine variety in favour of having many more products to choose from which don't contain high fructose corn syrup. (Lean Cuisine is an American brand - I've noticed the selection of President's Choice in the US is terrible myself.)

--------------------

Last point (I hope): on the commuting side

-- it's actually a better idea to live in central Toronto, if you end up working on the outskirts, than trying to live in those same horrible outskirts. I was just talking last week with a friend of mine who lives at Bathurst and Bloor (very close to Downtown) whose wife works in Orangeville (so far out of the city it isn't a suburb, but a proper real town with farmers' fields around it and everything). It takes her about an hour to drive there, which shocked me (I would have thought it was an hour and a half, even without rush hour). But she is always driving against the traffic - going out of Toronto in the morning, coming back in the evening.* So they have an apartment in a great location, both for his job and in the kind of dense neighbourhood they like, and her commute is much better than his would have been the other way.

(*You do have to do this kind of backwards commuting by car; the GO train refuses to run trains out of the city in the morning. That is an egregious oversite - GO people, you should fix this.)
posted by jb at 7:12 PM on March 24, 2007

As you can see from the pie-chart I linked, there are just as many South Asian people in Toronto as there are Chinese, though, of course, that is divided between many different cultures and languages.

I don't mean anything about the distribution of different national origins. I'm talking about the reactions of anglos. My gut feeling is that even since 2000, people seem to have shifted towards viewing Chinese immigrants with more suspicion and disdain. No, I am not sure of anything about this. It might well be that I spend way too much time around reactionary old (but lovable) English people.

But seriously - what are you shopping for that you can't get in Toronto?

It's not a matter of YOU CAN'T GET THAT HERE. Like I said, Toronto is not Soviet Russia. It's a matter of reduced variety. And it's not in cosmopolitan gosh-wow stuff, it's in boring everyday things. Case in point: we often use microwaveable entrees for lunches at work. There's easily two or three times the variety of them, summed over all brands, available in the US. Or even as simple as car colors -- we were helping my bride's sister look at cars, and kept running into problems because Toyotas in the US have a lot of options and colors that aren't available in Canada. In other threads in the past, people have noted that they have trouble finding tall-cut jeans or dish drainers that are red or nicely scented candles or other commonplace crap.

. But I think I can forgo the Lean Cuisine variety in favour of having many more products to choose from which don't contain high fructose corn syrup.

No need to be snotty about it. I'm not attacking you or Toronto. I love the town, and if we could somehow afford it I'd move to Yonge and Davisville instantly.

But. These threads always end up being dominated by people saying "Gosh, I'm from *Wherever*, and I love it here! It's wonderful in every way, and the people are friendly and there's lots of glorious and cheap gourmet restaurants and the city hires mermaids to give enthusiastic blowjobs on the subways."

I thought it might be useful to talk a little bit about what's not wonderful about Toronto, since that provides information too. That is all.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:36 PM on March 24, 2007

Maybe I missed someone else mentioning this upthread but the chances of you networking into another international company are certainly higher in Toronto than St Paul. Even if you love your company, it is always nice to have opportunities elsewhere. And makes them work harder to keep you happy.

For your child, every neighbourhood/community throughout Ontario has a least one Early Years Centre. A gov't funded programme that provides networking for parents, with amazing play centres (my local is awesome with a large gym, an arts and crafts room, real wodworking for kids, a puppet theatre, baby signing classes, etc) for free and used by all socio-economic classes from the wealthy, to nannies, to the working poor. There are probably 40 or so centres in the city of Toronto (and hundreds in the GTA including all the satellite centres). Very friendly to New Canadians. I can't think of any other programme in North America that integrates such diverse families in such a positive way. Feel free to contact me if you want more cheerleading.

There are many Americans here (all I have met have been lefty's, funny enough). So you won't be pointed at in the street. One reason I left Toronto was the car pollution, gross, but every urban area will have that problem. I'm in the (horrible? unfortunate?) 905, in a walkable town with lots of trees and fresh air and 40 min drive or GO into downtown. I just want to balance all the hatin'. As to the anti-asian bias, I am mystified by that. but Toronto is very "neighbourhood-y', so what is true in one neighbourhood does not reflect the whole city. You have obviously sensed a change in your circle, ROU. I am genuinely sorry to hear that.

I kinda feel bad for St Paul that so many Toronto-boosters are here, I guess I am a sucker for the underdog. I have read nice things about it.
posted by saucysault at 11:03 PM on March 24, 2007

Maybe I missed someone else mentioning this upthread but the chances of you networking into another international company are certainly higher in Toronto than St Paul. Even if you love your company, it is always nice to have opportunities elsewhere. And makes them work harder to keep you happy.

For your child, every neighbourhood/community throughout Ontario has a least one Early Years Centre. A gov't funded programme that provides networking for parents, with amazing play centres (my local is awesome with a large gym, an arts and crafts room, real wodworking for kids, a puppet theatre, baby signing classes, etc) for free and used by all socio-economic classes from the wealthy, to nannies, to the working poor. There are probably 40 or so centres in the city of Toronto (and hundreds in the GTA including all the satellite centres). Very friendly to New Canadians. I can't think of any other programme in North America that integrates so many diverse families in such a positive way. Feel free to contact me if you want more cheerleading.

There are many Americans here (all I have met have been lefty's, funny enough). So you won't be pointed at in the street. One reason I left Toronto was the car pollution, gross, but every urban area will have that problem. I'm in the (horrible? unfortunate?) 905, in a walkable town with lots of trees and fresh air and 40 min drive or GO into downtown. I just want to balance all the hatin'. As to the anti-asian bias, I am mystified by that. but Toronto is very "neighbourhood-y'; what is true in one neighbourhood does not reflect the whole city. You have obviously sensed a change in your circle, ROU. I am genuinely sorry to hear that.

I kinda feel bad for St Paul that so many Toronto-boosters are here, I guess I am a sucker for the underdog. I have read nice things about St Paul.
posted by saucysault at 11:03 PM on March 24, 2007

. But I think I can forgo the Lean Cuisine variety in favour of having many more products to choose from which don't contain high fructose corn syrup.

No need to be snotty about it. I'm not attacking you or Toronto. I love the town, and if we could somehow afford it I'd move to Yonge and Davisville instantly.

I'm not just being snotty, I just think you are projecting American culture on another country. In Canada, we don't eat much HFCS, just I've never actually known anyone in who ate microwave meals for lunch or dinner except rarely. Similarly, I'm annoyed by how grocery stores in Britain seem to only have sandwiches for sale for a quick lunch, and there doesn't seem to be the large deli or hot take-out selection I'm used to in Canada, but I'm projecting my culture -- British people like sandwiches and it's a part of their culture to eat sandwiches instead of hot lunches (my British-born mother-in-law still does, even in Toronto).

My European, Indian and Canadian friends in the States were frustrated because they couldn't find good automatic switch-off electric kettles in many places, and when they finally found some there was only one kind. I have actually met (highly educated) Americans who haven't even heard of eletric kettles, because it wasn't part of their culture. But in Britain they are one of the most basic household appliances; in Canada, they are a little less common, but still far easier to get than in the United States.

The fact is that the every country has some goods they carry, and some they don't, just like every place has some goods which are much better quality than elsewhere, while other things that are worse. The UK, for example, has far better cell phones than the US or Canada (a couple of years ahead in technology), while North America has a bigger selection and lower prices for computers. But no one would go around comparing the US to Soviet Russia for lacking decent mobiles. (And in even mentioning Soviet Russia, yes, you have set up an implicit comparison, even if you did not intend to.)

You came to Canada and missed the goods you were used to, just as I went to the United States and missed the goods I was used to. But neither of us would have noticed most of the other goods that we didn't expect, but that the native people would take for granted.

But to get back on topic (and I'm sorry for the derail, but I did feel ROU was being unfair), this is definitely something for an American who is considering whether to emmigrate or not to consider -- you and your family will have American expectations in consumer goods, and these will not be fulfilled in a non-American place. Any American emmigrating to Canada might find new products which they enjoy, just as any Canadian moving to the States might enjoy the selection of what they have there. But it's a change you have to consider, and if an American did emmigrate, perhaps they probably shouldn't complain vocally about how much better the shopping is in the United States (even if it is for them), because it will annoy the local Canadians. It's kind of like complaining that the cheese selection in Japan is inferior, while not appreciating the soy sauce selection.

(By the way, in case cheese matters to you - there is almost no "American" cheese in Canada, except as individually wrapped "cheese slices". The other selection isn't bad - chedder, mozzerella, cream cheese, grated parmesan for basics, specialty sections in most grocery stores will have many Continental or North American cheeses, but sadly few British varieties, and the quality and price are not as good as in the UK. The high quality is just as good, but the cheap Canadian cheese in inferior to cheap British cheese, and not as cheap.)

--------------------

saucysault has made a good correction: there are several nice places within the 905 - Port Credit comes to mind, as does Clarkson. (Port Credit is very nice - my family was thinking of moving there some years ago, but it's actually too expensive now.) These are both the centres of old towns which predate the city they are now in.

But while you can walk around some areas of the 905, the majority is not walkable and the transit is awkward/non-existant, and the areas between the nice areas are very large tracts of suburban housing, industrial land or large-scale pedestrian unfriendly commercial, with highway-like roads. (Note: there are no "freeways" in Canada, only highways, parkways and expressways). I'm sure that every North American city of a certain size shares these features - dense inner part of the city, ringed by less dense suburbs, but with pockets within the suburbs which are the "main streets" of old towns and which maintain some of the more urban/walkable quality while still being much smaller and friendlier.

Something to be aware of, however, is that is a difference between Canada and the US in that we don't really have the same "inner city" poverty as some American cities, where poor people live downtown and middle-class in the suburbs. In Toronto, many poor people live in poor suburbs, more like Paris's banlieus. There are a few poor neighbourhoods downtown, but those can be right next door to some of the poshest, most desirable neighbourhoods in the city, with lots of very middle to upper-middle class neighbourhoods within a short street car ride (like the Beaches). Downtown/old Toronto schools are generally thought to be very good -- so if you did consider moving to Toronto, make sure you talk to people on the ground about the nature of each neighbourhood, rather than thinking of it like an American city. But you are in NYC now, which is far from a typical American city to start with.

saucysalt is also correct that there are too many Toronto-boosters in the thread (it is a bigger place, with probably more mefi-members. Though I would have called myself a Toronto "describer", since I don't have a stake in where you move, just in correcting some stuff).

To make your decision, in the end you will just have to weigh the pros and cons of each place, including not only the character of that city, but what country it is in, how far from places you might want to visit (like relatives), or even the nature of the offices you would be working in there. It sounds like you and your family could be happy in either St. Paul's or Toronto, but there are big differences, and the biggest being that St. Paul's is in the United States, and Toronto is in Canada, That really does matter, as you can see from my and ROU's argument.
posted by jb at 4:23 AM on March 26, 2007

In Canada, we don't eat much HFCS

Uh-huh. Look at the ingredients on a loaf of bread or bottle of soda or bottle of ketchup.

You came to Canada and missed the goods you were used to, just as I went to the United States and missed the goods I was used to.

And we come to Canada again and again and are routinely asked by Canadians to bring up items that they either could not find or could find only with difficulty. Kee-rist, is it really such an insult to your national virility to note that across a range of boring consumer goods, the selection in Canada is slightly but noticeably smaller? If it makes you feel better, I'll note that Canada's position sort of between the US and UK spheres of influence gives it markedly superior bookstores, and the chocolate is much better as well. Also you can get unpasteurized cheese. Happy?

if an American did emmigrate, perhaps they probably shouldn't complain vocally about how much better the shopping is in the United States (even if it is for them), because it will annoy the local Canadians

That, or they'll blandly agree and ask if you want to go with them to the outlet malls in NF that weekend.

(Note: there are no "freeways" in Canada, only highways, parkways and expressways)

A freeway is just any limited-access highway.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:40 AM on March 26, 2007

In Canada, we don't eat much HFCS, just I've never actually known anyone in who ate microwave meals for lunch or dinner except rarely.

I'm sorry, I was born and raised in Toronto and lived there for the vast majority of my life and I find your above statements inaccurate (and I'm projecting nothing other than "Canadian", with a dash of "Canadian who now lives in the US and so has probably a pretty decent perspective on the similarities and differences"). It's my understanding that in Canada, HFCS doesn't have to be called HFCS on food labels, it can be called "fructose-glucose". With that in mind, you have to take almost as much care to avoid HFCS in Canada (should you care to do so) as you do in the US (not least because much of the prepared foods available in both countries are made by the same companies in the same plants - as far as I know, sugar is cheaper in Canada than the US, so there may be LESS HFCS, but it's still there, under another, less obvious, name), and people in Canada eat microwaveable meals just as much as they do in the US, in my experience. Things like this are far more similar between the US and Canada than different. I'm sure your own personal experiences may be different, but your own personal experiences are not necessarily reflective of the way things actually are (any more than mine necessarily are).

To actually answer the question: Toronto is a wonderful city, and up until a few years ago I would have given almost anything to move back there...but now, not so much. It's got almost everything you could ask for, but unfortunately lots of people feel the same way, and the population has now increased to the point where now (IMO) it's just way too busy, and the infrastructure simply hasn't been able to keep up - it's not as clean as it used to be, the traffic is horrendous (and I didn't realize just how bad and rude Toronto drivers are until I spent some time driving in other cities), the air pollution is frightening and the city somehow seems to be losing what made it wonderful in the first place (IMHO, of course). But if you can stand the (very) high cost of living and the fact that it's busy almost everywhere almost all the time, go for it, in many ways it's a great place to live, and you'd be hard-pressed to find somewhere more multicultural. I haven't lived in MSP, so I can't offer any suggestions, but I'd certainly suggest you visit both places before you decide.
posted by biscotti at 6:19 AM on March 26, 2007

Toronto rocks. I mean, it's in Canada, and things only get better from there.
posted by chunking express at 8:09 AM on March 26, 2007

Interesting discussion happening. Re: goods available. I'm sorry, even as a Torontonian, I would have to agree that in general the range of goods is much wider in the States. This is a reflection of my experience of only having visited big cities in the US, but because of the bigger populations I have found that they must be catered to. Since the overall population of Canada is so much much lower than the US, they simply don't have the same kind of buying power, and thus fewer products. It isn't a slag on the availability of goods in Toronto, it's just a reflection of more consumers in the US with cumulative bigger pull.

Just weighing in on the racial issue. I am of Chinese descent, born in Toronto. This tension that is referred to, being polarized in terms of white/Chinese is something that I know existed but that I never experienced at all in downtown Toronto which is very seemingly evenly mixed. I think this is specifically related to a few outlying areas and a specific era of development.

In the nineties, there were still a few areas just on the borders, just outside of Toronto that were still farmland, or were small towns that were still independent of Toronto or another city. Recession. Farms went under. The small towns around that farmland suffered. And guess what - it was 1997 and Hong Kong was being handed over to China. So, all the money people and the regular people who just wanted to continue to do business got the hell out of Hong Kong before June 30, 1997. A lot of them ended up in Canada, and in Toronto particularly. They looked around and wanted to set up businesses like they had in Hong Kong. And wow! There was all this land, infrastructure around Toronto that was incredibly cheap! (By HK standards. Around that time, in HK, a one-bedroom condo could run 1 million CDN easily. Less so now.) Anyway, being business people (I mean that is why they left HK to continue to run their businesses freely) they set up shop. Soon there were whole areas (and still are) that were once farmland and small town (primarily caucasian) that are now mostly Chinese, including entire shopping malls. So, naturally there was tension. Of course, the original community of farmers and townfolk resented the take-over of their village. But it had economic roots. And the tension? I was living in one of those areas during that time. There was no violence or protests. The tension occurred the way Canadians like to do things; at the courthouse, through committees and discussions and forums and panels. Whoever said that for some reason Canadians/Ontarians like bureacracy was right. A lot of talking and talking and more talking. A by-law set down that signs had to be in English and not only in Chinese etc. etc. It's been a few years, and I think things have settled down. The original communities are still there and so are the Chinese, so they must have worked it out somehow.

I am not at all saying there is no racial tension. Not by any means. Of course there are still cultural differences, but I feel like that they are generally resolved without violence.
posted by typewriter at 7:30 PM on March 26, 2007

Also, you won't get any free health care unless you become a landed immigrant and even then you have to reside in Ontario for 3 months before you can use it.

Not true, my husband and I are here on on his temporary work permit and we have health insurance. And it's not "free" it's just paid for through taxes, not by employers or private parties. The three month waiting period is correct though.

But seriously - what are you shopping for that you can't get in Toronto? Alcohol - the LCBO has way more selection than the dinky liquor stores in the US, same price or cheaper (though not as cheap as the UK for wine).

Totally untrue. There are liquor stores the size of supermarkets where I'm from in California that sell just about every type of alcohol I can imagine at half the price of the LCBO. In upstate NY the prices are cheaper. There are many more places to buy alcohol in the US than in those tiny corner stores.

I don't drink that much so it's not that big of a deal to me. I'm not into shopping so much in general, I'm more of a thrift store type, and there are decent thrift stores in Toronto. I like living here a lot and if we end up going back to the states I will miss a lot of things from here.
posted by Melsky at 8:17 AM on March 27, 2007

And I lived in Connecticut, and had the choice of shopping at chi-chi wineshops with expensive and extremely limited selections, or liquor stores with half-naked women on the walls who thought that a nice brand of vodka was one which didn't come with a free pack of cigarrettes.

Maybe there are places in the US to buy other than those small corner stores. They are usually known as "box stores" or "massive box stores" and those are the kinds of stores that are destroying the kind of city and neighbourhood that the original poster said they wanted to live in.

I didn't want to get back into this thread, but seriously, people are saying with one breath "there are too many cars! too much pollution!" and with the next "there aren't enough massive box stores with have good selection but creat horrible urban wastelands!". If you want a nice city, like Toronto, you make trade-offs. I don't ever want Toronto to have a big buying selection, if it means we have to have more box stores to have it.
posted by jb at 9:25 AM on March 28, 2007

Hi, I'm False Dichotomy! You might remember me from such comments as the immediately preceding one.

It's possible, oddly enough, for one store to have a larger selection than another, even if it is no bigger! Or even if it is actually smaller! Firms can achieve miracles like this by ordering fewer items each of more and different items.

typewriter: when I'm in the GTA, I spend a lot of time up in North York instead of in old-boundaries Toronto, and that's almost certainly biasing my perceptions.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:05 AM on March 28, 2007