Should she fuggedabout residence?

March 14, 2007 12:24 PM

IsManhattanReallyThatExpensive? Filter: My girlfriend is going on exchange to Fordham Law School next fall. She is thinking of living in residence because of the convenience, but is somewhat stunned by the $6000 they want to charge her for 4 months (food not included). Is this reasonable? If it's not, where should she live?

Obviously, Manhattan is very expensive. Still, this seems an awful lot to charge students (though we probably have different expectations of what it costs to be student, since we're in Canada).

Is it worth paying that kind of amount for the convenience of living in Manhattan and being close to school? How much could she save if she lived off campus (say with a roommate)? Would the distance she would have to live from campus to save significant money not be worth the travel time?

Finally, if she does move off campus, what areas of the city should she consider and where should she avoid?

posted by Dasein to work & money (41 comments total)

The Rentometer says that rent's on the low scale for the neighborhood, which sounds right. She also gets to avoid the hassle of finding a place to live in New York. Would she have roommates? What's the living situation (how many bedrooms, living room? eat-in kitchen?)

She can probably find a place to sublet for four months somewhere in New York City for ~$600-$800, so she could save a considerable chunk of change. But seriously, finding a place to live here is not easy.

If she wants to live off campus, I'd suggest the Inwood neighborhood (northern end of Manhattan, north of Dyckman, and especially west of Broadway). Rent is cheap there, it's not as overwhelming as the rest of the island, and she can take the A train express to Fordham in about 30 minutes. That's probably going to be the best mix of easy and cheap she'll find.
posted by one_bean at 12:33 PM on March 14, 2007

Looks reasonable
posted by aubilenon at 12:35 PM on March 14, 2007

Yes, you can find apartments for less than that. They will be farther away, and some people care and some people don't. How much travel is too much for you?

The four-month part of it could work for you or against you: you culd get a nice sublet or have trouble because people want roommates for longer. The school is near Columbus Circle, so if you check out the subway map, you can see which trains are appropriate. The closest neighborhoods are in general more expensive or involve a lot of walking (blocks between avenues are very long), but Long Island City would be very cheap and a 15ish mins on two trains.
posted by dame at 12:36 PM on March 14, 2007

As a New York resident, I think that's reasonable for the area.
posted by falconred at 12:36 PM on March 14, 2007

one_bean: does that mean that commutes from other boroughs are going to be significantly more than 30 minutes? Or does it get a lot cheaper if you're willing to spend 45 minutes getting to class?
posted by Dasein at 12:37 PM on March 14, 2007

(And honestly? I'd rather commute from LIC than Inwood. Like a million times better.)
posted by dame at 12:38 PM on March 14, 2007

I went to Fordham Law...It's a great place, a lot of phenomenal profs and a great open, intelligent, not-ungodly-competitive, caring atmosphere. Lots of opportunity.

Honestly, the student housing is right there on campus, with a pretty little park and Lincoln Center and Columbus Circle right near by and $1,500/m is really not all that bad. Potential of a great view if on a higher floor. Yeah, price is high and reflective of the convenience of being right there on campus and everything, but, being unfamiliar with the city and (I assume) not knowing many or any people here, that community and convenience may be worth it for you.

Hell's Kitchen is not a bad walk from Fordham, and you could probably find a roommate situation there for a reduced price (looks like avg. of about $1,000/m but that was a 2-second Craigslist survey). I lived in Hell's Kitchen for most of the time I was at Fordham, with about a 16 block walk to and from school - sounds like a lot but they are small blocks and it was about 10 minutes (as well as a bus that runs on 9th Ave.) Stay east of 10th Avenue for safety, but other than that, it's do-able to find a place within walking distance of Fordham in midtown West/Hell's Kitchen for less than the dorm price. There's lots of good bars and restaurants in that area, too - and the whole covered-in-hookers thing is just really not the case anymore. A lot of newer, large buildings have cropped up in the 40s and 50s on the West Side, that allow pressurized walls and shares and such.

The Upper West Side is of course also convenient and safe, but not going to yield much of a cost difference.

Oh, and because its a Jesuit school IIRC no opposite-sex overnight guests in Fordham housing.
posted by bunnycup at 12:43 PM on March 14, 2007

Looks reasonable to me. And I wouldn't want to add a significant commute onto law school. The last thing you want is to leave a late-night study session, have to wait 20 minutes for an off-hours train, ride for another 30 and walk for another 10.
posted by PEAK OIL at 12:45 PM on March 14, 2007

I agree with those who say that it's probably worth the cost for the convenience of living near campus (particularly with all the work law school requires), at least until you get your feet wet and you know your way around. I did student housing for one semester when I moved to NYC; looking for an apartment from a distance would have been pretty hard.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:50 PM on March 14, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

So it's $1500 a month including utilities? If it's a doorman dorm that's definitely as cheap as your are going to get for that kind of setup while staying in the neighborhood. Unless you have time in the city to look for some kind of specific deal and even then for 4 months it might be hard to swing.
posted by frieze at 12:54 PM on March 14, 2007

"And honestly? I'd rather commute from LIC than Inwood. Like a million times better."

What?

From Inwood it's a 25-minute straight shot on the A train to 59th.

From LIC, are you thinking the 7 or the R/V, either of which has a long and painful underground transfer to the A at 42nd? (Or the even longer R+E+D?)
posted by sparrows at 12:55 PM on March 14, 2007

She can probably find a place to sublet for four months somewhere in New York City for ~$600-$800

she could find a room to sublet for that, but that is mighty optimistic for her own place (certainly not impossible, as I know people with rents that low, but it would be really lucky to just come across it because anyone with rent that low has a dozen friends who will snap it up). You could find your own place in the outer boroughs for $1k+, in general, and a room for $600-800. Public transport is $76 per month.

browse craig's list for a sense of things, but keep in mind that finding a place in NYC can be kind of a big undertaking - you will be amazed at the tiny dimensions or otherwise unlivable aspects of some rooms or apartments, so do not agree to something you haven't seen in person, and when you do want something, you've gotta grab it because scores of other folks will want it, too.
posted by mdn at 12:56 PM on March 14, 2007

Peak Oil brings up a good point -- if she does commute, it won't just be for class. It'll be for study sessions, office hours, group projects, library trips, etc. I just started grad school, and I really underestimated the amount of non-class commuting I'd have to do; I imagine law school, where it seems like there's a great deal of group work, would be even worse.
posted by occhiblu at 12:57 PM on March 14, 2007

If it's a one bedroom or studio, it's a reasonable price.

If she's sharing it with someone, it's a ripoff.
posted by Afroblanco at 12:57 PM on March 14, 2007

OH, I forgot to add (and to me this is an important consideration) that there is an UNDERGROUND TUNNEL that connects the high-rise dorm to the school buildings. FWIW, this allows the opportunity not only to get to use a tunnel, a secret tunnel, on a daily basis, but also to avoid going outside alltogether during finals, cold/rainy weather, etc. This might not matter to you, but all my friends who lived in housing joked about the perk.
posted by bunnycup at 12:57 PM on March 14, 2007

Now that I think about it, from LIC she could take the R to 57th and then it's maybe a 12-minute fast walk to the law school's front door. That makes it more reasonable.

Another thought is that she should try sabbaticalhomes.com which is a home swap and temporary sublet service specifically geared to academics. Last time I looked there, I saw a couple of affordable places on the A.
posted by sparrows at 1:04 PM on March 14, 2007

Good luck getting a roommate situation for just 4 months. The only feasible alternative would be to find a sublet, but that will definitely require time spent beforehand meeting with renters and making sure their place is acceptable, and that will add to the expense of this plan. If you decide to go this route (or the roommate one) you really need to meet the people, see the place, and get everything in writing. It is a common scam in NYC for someone to show you an apartment, accept a deposit, and then vanish, leaving multiple people under the illusion that they have a place to live. Happened to a friend of mine.

Four months is a short time to blow through $6000, but it's a dreadfully long time to be stuck living somewhere that makes you uncomfortable. She will have more time to study and more energy for fun if she's not commuting 30 min+ each way. Plus the campus housing has 24 hour security and, yes, a secret tunnel.
posted by hermitosis at 1:08 PM on March 14, 2007

to be perfectly honest, she could find a bargain, but i doubt she would save enough money to make it worth the hassle--i lived there for 6 years, and even i wouldn't dare try to do this kind of search long-distance. you really do have to look at a place in person, and you'll probably have to put your money down on the spot. it's a brutal, brutal market! so she'd probably have to stay in a hotel until she found a sublet, which would be cripplingly expensive. i think the extra couple hundred bucks a month is worth it for the peace of mind. i really do.

besides, if you're only in new york for a little while, the primo location may actually be a better value, in that she will have a better experience--shorter commute, more things within walking distance, more time and energy to enjoy the things that only new york has to offer. i mean, fordham law is good, but i think the real appeal is spending a semester in new york, right? :)
posted by thinkingwoman at 1:14 PM on March 14, 2007

Given the convenience that others have mentioned, the cost of the residence really is pretty reasonable for Manhattan. But if money is the deciding factor, then yes, she can get a better deal. Another vote for Inwood or the area of Washington Heights just below it (from 178 to Ft Tryon Park west of Broadway). I've lived in that neighborhood for 6 years, and worked in midtown. The commute on the A is pretty easy (25 minutes is right), it's safe, has decent amenities, and it's a really beautiful part of the city. She could find a Studio or 1BR for $800 to $1100, and a share for even less. Many of the buildings in this area are pre-war, and thus you get much more space for your money.

That said, convenience can't be overstated. Even though I have a nice big sunny 1 BR uptown, my boyfriend and I spend most of our nights in his dark studio in Chelsea because it's 10 blocks from my work, and there are million good restaurants within a few minutes walk.
posted by kimdog at 1:18 PM on March 14, 2007

It is worth it. First time living in New York? Especially for school? If you can swing it, it's the perfect opportunity to have an amazing location in New York for a short time. I love living in Queens now, but for when you're first starting to discover the city, there's nothing like having it at your doorstep. And dorms are a nice, safe, short-term way to have that experience with a bare minimum of hassle. Plus, consider that that includes 24-hour security, cable, internet, all utilities, there's food in the building and you don't even have to go outside to get to class. Definitely worth it.

But if you can't afford it, you can't afford it.
posted by lampoil at 1:38 PM on March 14, 2007

Manhattan is pretty darn expensive. That said, I was living there last summer and managed to find--on Craigslist no less!--a place up at 125th st. and Riverside for only $825 a month plus utilities, subletting from someone and living with his roommate. I did come down to check it out in person before taking it, though, and I was very glad I did.

I think the Morningside Heights/Manhattanvile area would be a great bet (or as kimdog suggested, even further north). I think it would be very reasonable to find something in the $800/month area, especially with a roommate, and there are plenty of students (especially in Morningside Heights) so finding a roommate wouldn't be hard. As far as travel time, both areas would be no more than 20-30 minutes away by subway. And pretty much everywhere in Manhattan is safe these days, so that's really not a worry.
posted by goingonit at 1:41 PM on March 14, 2007

sparrows: R or E + B/D, depending on where you live. I do the latter on weekends often and it is generally fast and pleasant, and the part of LIC by 23d/Ely is a nice and cheap 'hood. Plus I have more fun there than in Inwood. But I also hate Inwood and that miserable effing ride more than any other neighborhood I have been unfortunate enough to visit. It's a freaking hole.

Anyway, thinking about it more, you may as well live there unless the cash makes a big difference to you.
posted by dame at 1:47 PM on March 14, 2007

Oh, and because its a Jesuit school IIRC no opposite-sex overnight guests in Fordham housing.


Hold on - WHAT? That could put quite a crimp in my plans to visit.

That aside, there is a ton of very useful advice in this thread, I really appreciate it. There is another girl going on the exchange with her, and they could potentially live together - but as people have said, it makes it harder having to get a sublet.
posted by Dasein at 1:49 PM on March 14, 2007

Out of curiosity I looked at the Fordham website, and I noticed the following. Correct me if I'm wrong.

1. Typically double rooms, dorm style (i.e. she will have a roommate).

2. Mandatory meal plan, and the cost is mostly included. The 'platinum' meal plan which gives you unlimited cafeteria access is an extra $300 only.

This changes the cost equation significantly.
posted by PercussivePaul at 2:01 PM on March 14, 2007

"But I also hate Inwood and that miserable effing ride more than any other neighborhood I have been unfortunate enough to visit. It's a freaking hole."

Dame has never ventured west of Broadway in Inwood.

One thing should be clear: renting out-right is not going to be an option. She will have to find a sublet. All places in New York require at least a 6 month (more typically 12 month) lease, with a %10-%20 fee for the realtor, which basically makes the $6,000 rent more reasonable.

I think I agree -- so long as the extra ~$2,000-$3,000 won't break the bank, I think it will be a lot easier just to take the student housing.
posted by one_bean at 2:04 PM on March 14, 2007

Good deal. Especially if there's no roommate involved. If they have public bathrooms that are cleaned by someone who is not your girlfriend, even better. If there is security at the door, even even better.

I've lived in Manhattan for the last four years. The only situation I've lived in where I paid less rent than $1500.00 a month is when I had 2.5 roommates, lived on the second floor above a noisy club, and lived in a lofted area that had no walls.

Clearly, it's about time to move out of Manhattan and others have covered some good areas above.

In your girlfriend's situation, I think it would be well worth her time and money to be right in the middle of the school, near the libraries, and close to the core population of other law students. I hear law school is a bitch, and you know what they say about misery loving company.

Oh, you should also be aware that she is quite likely to end up with roommates that have drastically different schedules than her as well as being complete assholes.

Unless you either use a broker (which will cost you a month and a half's rent) or take a week to stay in NYC while looking for an apartment via craigslist, there is no way you are going to be able to find a place. You would basically need to troll craigslist, when something even vaguely interesting came up call immediately. Rush out the door immediately to see the place, and bring your checkbook. If you want any chance of getting a place you will need to put a deposit down on the spot. Then get prepared for credit checks, safety deposits and crappy lease terms that will probably make you provide some sort of notarized letter 60 days before the end of your lease stating your intentions to stop your month to month lease. You could also get lucky with a sublet, but I wouldn't count on it.

Good luck!
posted by zackola at 2:05 PM on March 14, 2007

I live in LIC and pay $550/mo in rent for a room in a shared brownstone. I have my own room (about 12' by 14', 12' ceilings, 2 windows) and share two bathrooms and a kitchen with four other tenants on my floor.

The 7/E/V/G trains are half a block away, and the N/W at Q'boro Plaza or the R at Queens Plaza are ten minutes' walk at the outside.

Getting to the A or B/D from the E is an easy transfer, and the trip to Columbus Circle might take 20 minutes.

If you send me an email I can give you my landlady's info. She owns a few buildings in LIC and may have spaces open. She likes to rent to people she likes, and there's no lease to sign. Her spaces are clean and have character, and she's one of the five greatest people I know.

Good luck.
posted by breezeway at 2:14 PM on March 14, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]

PercussivePaul - I hope I haven't been misleading you all along. She told me that the university told her that meals weren't included. We'll double-check that, because, you're right, it would change things quite a bit.
posted by Dasein at 2:15 PM on March 14, 2007

Erm . . . I'm going to visit a friend at Fordham Law this weekend. Pretty sure he lives in residence. If you can wait 4/5 days I could probably get reasonable answers to all these questions from someone who's relatively aware of What's Going On.
posted by that girl at 2:19 PM on March 14, 2007

I think the people saying it's a good deal were assuming a single room or apt. A roommate situation for 1500/mo can be beaten even in the Columbus Circle area.

And yeah, Fordham is Jesuit in principle although not heavily in practice or in the student body (especially in the Lincoln Center campus where the law school is located). If you want to visit her she definitely shouldn't live in the residence hall.

Speaking of the Lincoln Center campus, you are aware that the main body of Fordham is another campus in the Bronx, right? So if you find listings for sublets that say "convenient to Fordham" those are not going to apply to the law school for the most part -- just be sure to ask anytime you're not sure.
posted by lorimer at 2:32 PM on March 14, 2007

I think some posters in this thread are inaccurately minimizing her chances of finding a good sublet. There are plenty of them and she sounds like a very attractive subletter, as a visiting law student.

I think she should place a "seeking" ad now on Craigslist describing herself to see what responses she gets. If I were her I would say I wanted something ideally around Columbus Circle, on the UWS, in Hell's Kitchen, or elsewhere on the A or D trains (those are the express trains that serve Columbus Circle).
posted by lorimer at 2:37 PM on March 14, 2007

My friend lived in that dorm for a year or two of his JD. I believe he had three people in his suite, but each had their own bedroom, and it was surprisingly large, and the convenience couldn't be beat. I believe one of the libraries was IN the dorm.

But, dorms are indeed expensive just because. Our NYU dorms used to cost something more than $1500/month/person for two shared bedrooms.
posted by The Michael The at 2:41 PM on March 14, 2007

PercussivePaul, are you sure you're looking at the right page? The "mandatory" meal plan thing sounds like an undergraduate requirement. I can't imgaine any school requiring it's law students to have a meal plan.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:57 PM on March 14, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Yeah, I could have been looking at the wrong page. I only had a minute to check.
posted by PercussivePaul at 3:29 PM on March 14, 2007

Dame has never ventured west of Broadway in Inwood.

That is entirely possible. We visited two sets of people who lived up there and I don't remember.

An important caution about that also: it may be fast when the train runs express, but when it doesn't it is also miserable. Plus, it doesn't seem much fun, and it is a harder cab ride than Queens should it come to that. I would recommend heavily against. Also, I have been to breezeway's house and his landlady's properties would be a good choice.
posted by dame at 3:35 PM on March 14, 2007

http://law.fordham.edu/studenthandbook/sh-housing.ihtml
http://www.fordham.edu/Student_Affairs/Residential_Life/Lincoln_Center/
http://www.fordham.edu/student_affairs/residential_life/lincoln_center/our_residential_offe/law_housing/
posted by metaname at 6:12 PM on March 14, 2007

I guess I could copy the relevant part:
"All law students live in fully furnished three-single-bedroom apartments. Each apartment has a kitchen with stove, oven and full-size refrigerator; a living room with sofa, lounge chairs, coffee and end tables; a dining table and chairs; and one bathroom. Each bedroom has an extra-long twin bed, dresser and desk. Each bedroom has an internet jack, ready for an Ethernet-equipped computer; a telephone line and heating/cooling units. Additionally, cable service is provided in the living room."
posted by metaname at 6:14 PM on March 14, 2007

Honestly, the Columbus Circle area is super nice and $1500/mo seems reasonable to me, even if it's not a deal. Don't underestimate the stress of finding and furnishing housing either. I think that living in residence, in general, would be a real perk.

As for the overnight guests, I would seriously doubt that they enforce any rules. I mean, it's a Jesuit school -- not an Opus Dei one.
posted by wildeepdotorg at 6:24 PM on March 14, 2007

I agree generally with what bunnycup says, but don't limit yourself to east of 10th Avenue--10 or 15 years ago, that may have been the case, but in the past 2 years, crime in this nabe has dwindled, especially in that area.
posted by yellowcandy at 9:58 PM on March 14, 2007

Thanks to everyone - this is really useful. I *heart* metafilter.
posted by Dasein at 6:19 AM on March 15, 2007

For the record, when I said it was worth it, I was not assuming she'd have her own room. It looks as though they are singles, though, which is waaaaay worth it. I went to NYU...the dorms there were $10K+ for 8 months to share a bedroom.

And don't worry about the overnight guest thing, believe me.
posted by lampoil at 3:36 PM on March 15, 2007