Wedding reception contract blues
March 13, 2007 2:10 PM Subscribe
Lawyering up: My fiancee and I are trying to plan a wedding, and the standard contract offered by the ceremony/reception venue is too flimsy for our liking. If YAAL but YANML, would you like to be for a day?
The venue operates as a landscaping business with a banquet hall operation on the side. The form of the contract they offered us might be good enough for someone who's getting their lawn mowed and having a couple trees planted, but it doesn't really inspire much confidence in us. I just had a lengthy conversation with one of the owners, who feels that if their contract isn't enough for us that means we don't trust them to do a good job with our wedding (partly true) and aren't committed enough to them to accept our deposit and reserve the date for us.
Being that this is in the South Chicagoland Suburbs, there really isn't anywhere else for miles that has such reasonable rates and availability for our wedding next summer, so we want to do all that we can to patch things up and come up with a contract that both parties feel comfortable with. We are meeting with them Friday, and I would really feel better about things if I could tell them that we had a lawyer look over things for us, so that he doesn't feel like they hold all the bargaining chips.
I am also looking elsewhere for legal consultation, but we really don't want to have to spend a lot of money if negotiations don't go anywhere and we need to look elsewhere. So if you are a lawyer and have the free time to read AskMe and also can do an hour on the side cheaply or pro bono, I can email you their version and our revised version of the contract. Nonlegal advice will also be read and considered.
The venue operates as a landscaping business with a banquet hall operation on the side. The form of the contract they offered us might be good enough for someone who's getting their lawn mowed and having a couple trees planted, but it doesn't really inspire much confidence in us. I just had a lengthy conversation with one of the owners, who feels that if their contract isn't enough for us that means we don't trust them to do a good job with our wedding (partly true) and aren't committed enough to them to accept our deposit and reserve the date for us.
Being that this is in the South Chicagoland Suburbs, there really isn't anywhere else for miles that has such reasonable rates and availability for our wedding next summer, so we want to do all that we can to patch things up and come up with a contract that both parties feel comfortable with. We are meeting with them Friday, and I would really feel better about things if I could tell them that we had a lawyer look over things for us, so that he doesn't feel like they hold all the bargaining chips.
I am also looking elsewhere for legal consultation, but we really don't want to have to spend a lot of money if negotiations don't go anywhere and we need to look elsewhere. So if you are a lawyer and have the free time to read AskMe and also can do an hour on the side cheaply or pro bono, I can email you their version and our revised version of the contract. Nonlegal advice will also be read and considered.
This post was deleted for the following reason: this is not what askme is for - put it in jobs if it's a job
Maybe this would work better in Jobs?
posted by dilettante at 2:41 PM on March 13, 2007
posted by dilettante at 2:41 PM on March 13, 2007
A year out is plenty of time to make other arrangements, if you're feeling kinda iffy about these people. I know it's typically a formal affair in the Northeast, but have you considered an outside location like a park if the banquet hall thing doesn't work out?
posted by Mr. Gunn at 2:46 PM on March 13, 2007
posted by Mr. Gunn at 2:46 PM on March 13, 2007
From my reading of this as an outsider, it seems like the facility is being fairly upfront about the level of service to which they promising to commit (which sounds a lot like "adequate" and less than "stellar"), and you are unsatisfied with this and want more.
Coming at them with a tighter contract is not going to make them easier to work with; in fact, it makes it much more likely that they will tell you, "this is the way we do things, and if you don't like it, please find another facility." Look at it from their perspective: they are the only facility in their price range for miles around. They are undoubtedly aware of this, and have settled into a comfortable state of mediocrity. Why do they need your business if it's going to give them headaches? Lots of folks get married in the summer, and if you don't use their facility, they have enough time to take the gamble that someone else will. Bottom line: it sounds like you need them more than they need you.
My suggestion: if you are convinced that this is THE facility for your wedding and no other will do, offer them more money for the added inconvenience of doing things your way. You can pair this with a stricter contract, or a graduated pay schedule that withholds the final payment until after the reception is over, but the grease you are looking for to overcome the sticking point of these negotiations is filthy lucre, and the more friction you represent, the more lubricant you need to offer.
My .02 cents...
posted by mosk at 3:20 PM on March 13, 2007
Coming at them with a tighter contract is not going to make them easier to work with; in fact, it makes it much more likely that they will tell you, "this is the way we do things, and if you don't like it, please find another facility." Look at it from their perspective: they are the only facility in their price range for miles around. They are undoubtedly aware of this, and have settled into a comfortable state of mediocrity. Why do they need your business if it's going to give them headaches? Lots of folks get married in the summer, and if you don't use their facility, they have enough time to take the gamble that someone else will. Bottom line: it sounds like you need them more than they need you.
My suggestion: if you are convinced that this is THE facility for your wedding and no other will do, offer them more money for the added inconvenience of doing things your way. You can pair this with a stricter contract, or a graduated pay schedule that withholds the final payment until after the reception is over, but the grease you are looking for to overcome the sticking point of these negotiations is filthy lucre, and the more friction you represent, the more lubricant you need to offer.
My .02 cents...
posted by mosk at 3:20 PM on March 13, 2007
At the venue where my husband and I were married, the contract was not very professional (which was weird, because it was a popular location for weddings). The managers had no problem with our adding items to the contract, rewording items, and so forth - as long as we did the work and they were able to approve the changes before we all signed. We didn't hire a lawyer - we just added or clarified items so that we were more comfortable with what we had in writing that the venue would do/provide. I don't think there was a single thing we added or rewrote that they didn't OK. Perhaps you could take this sort of friendly approach...more of a "here are a few provisions we'd like to add" rather than "here's what my lawyer says." If they balk at that level of clarification, then I'd certainly consider going elsewhere.
posted by hsoltz at 3:48 PM on March 13, 2007
posted by hsoltz at 3:48 PM on March 13, 2007
I doubt you need a lawyer for this. You can write clearly, and it sounds like you already have spotted the issues. Just put what you want in writing, and keep it as short and fair as possible. Contracts don't need the stamp of a lawyer to be enforceable.
If you really think you need advice, you should describe the specific issues you want guidance about. Otherwise, there's not much of a question here for people to answer.
posted by brain_drain at 3:54 PM on March 13, 2007
If you really think you need advice, you should describe the specific issues you want guidance about. Otherwise, there's not much of a question here for people to answer.
posted by brain_drain at 3:54 PM on March 13, 2007
If you really want a lawyer to look at this contract, please just visit The Chicago Bar Association and ask for a general practitioner with low rates in your area to take a look for you. Here are some reasons this is a bad AskMe post:
Lawyers are licensed to practice state by state in the US; you're using a national (hell, worldwide) forum to request the services of professionals in one small-to-moderate jurisdiction. So it's inefficient.
Furthermore, any lawyer associated with a firm of any size has to complete a relatively sophisticated conflict of interest check before representing you. Any solo practitioner may well be willing to take your case, but the intersection of "solo practicioners" and "Illinois lawyers" and "AskMe readers" must be vanishingly small.
Furthermore, local bar associations exist precisely to fulfill this function. Every major city has one; just google "[City name] bar association" like I just did. Other than local yellowpages ads (did you check there, either?), this is the primary way that small firms and solos drum up business; there's a funnel made for you that you're bypassing.
Really, soliciting legal advice on AskMe is just a bad idea, much more than for most other services (possibly excepting medicine). Look local, seriously. Check ads in the papers and phone books, and call the bar association.
posted by rkent at 3:57 PM on March 13, 2007
Really, soliciting legal advice on AskMe is just a bad idea, much more than for most other services (possibly excepting medicine). Look local, seriously. Check ads in the papers and phone books, and call the bar association.
posted by rkent at 3:57 PM on March 13, 2007
In practice, businesses that use standard form contracts will not make substitutions for customers. Because the standard form has already been vetted by lawyers, there's just too much potential for getting screwed to depart from the norm.
I agree that if you don't really trust these guys then use a different vendor; don't artificially try to change the parties' legal rights and responsibilities.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 4:06 PM on March 13, 2007
I agree that if you don't really trust these guys then use a different vendor; don't artificially try to change the parties' legal rights and responsibilities.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 4:06 PM on March 13, 2007
Response by poster: Thanks for the responses so far. I will definitely call the bar association if we can't find anyone else local through friends and contacts, I hadn't thought of that option.
I have tried to present them with what we felt were reasonable additions, such as specifically writing out things that they used bullet points to "take care of," and the person I talked to stopped just short of flat-out rejecting every single thing I added, including standard boilerplate mumbo-jumbo from other contracts. He also said he didn't even want to bother running it by their lawyer, which made me more frustrated with him and the professionalism of the business.
To give you an idea of just how weak it is, here's a fairly significant typo that is presumably in every contract they sign with couples:
Guests agree to conduct the event in an orderly manner and assume full responsibility for the There will be a 15% service charge added to all tally or per person bar packages.
We don't feel like we are asking anything unreasonable; we just want the added vetting of a lawyer so we have a little bargaining leverage when they try to tell us that we don't really need to edit the contract.
posted by kyleg at 4:41 PM on March 13, 2007
I have tried to present them with what we felt were reasonable additions, such as specifically writing out things that they used bullet points to "take care of," and the person I talked to stopped just short of flat-out rejecting every single thing I added, including standard boilerplate mumbo-jumbo from other contracts. He also said he didn't even want to bother running it by their lawyer, which made me more frustrated with him and the professionalism of the business.
To give you an idea of just how weak it is, here's a fairly significant typo that is presumably in every contract they sign with couples:
Guests agree to conduct the event in an orderly manner and assume full responsibility for the There will be a 15% service charge added to all tally or per person bar packages.
We don't feel like we are asking anything unreasonable; we just want the added vetting of a lawyer so we have a little bargaining leverage when they try to tell us that we don't really need to edit the contract.
posted by kyleg at 4:41 PM on March 13, 2007
I have tried to present them with what we felt were reasonable additions, such as specifically writing out things that they used bullet points to "take care of," and the person I talked to stopped just short of flat-out rejecting every single thing I added, including standard boilerplate mumbo-jumbo from other contracts. He also said he didn't even want to bother running it by their lawyer, which made me more frustrated with him and the professionalism of the business.
I think this is the key statement. They aren't willing to work with your changes and you aren't comfortable with their contract. I don't see how a lawyer is going to help in this situation since they already aren't interested.
My personal feeling is they probably provide a reasonable service for the price and if you want something better, whatever better means for you, you'll have to pay more for it. You could try giving your current place more money but I think you'd be better off simply finding another place. The path your on seems likely to end in a situation no one is really happy with and potentially a "ruined" wedding.
Keep in mind you aren't the only customer in the world and theirs isn't the only venue.
posted by 6550 at 4:59 PM on March 13, 2007
I think this is the key statement. They aren't willing to work with your changes and you aren't comfortable with their contract. I don't see how a lawyer is going to help in this situation since they already aren't interested.
My personal feeling is they probably provide a reasonable service for the price and if you want something better, whatever better means for you, you'll have to pay more for it. You could try giving your current place more money but I think you'd be better off simply finding another place. The path your on seems likely to end in a situation no one is really happy with and potentially a "ruined" wedding.
Keep in mind you aren't the only customer in the world and theirs isn't the only venue.
posted by 6550 at 4:59 PM on March 13, 2007
kyleg, one thing to keep in mind is that "lawyering up" in a situation like this may be more likely to scare off the vendor entirely than encourage them to accept their changes. The vendor may assume that your retention of counsel means you are litigious and difficult and likely to result in headaches down the road. Ultimately your best leverage is to have a Plan B so the vendor knows your business may go elsewhere.
I suggest you focus on the stuff that really matters to you and present a small number of changes. The excerpt you quote is obviously pretty screwed up, but it doesn't hurt you. Focus on the items of substance that truly affect your rights and responsibilities. Adding "standard boilerplate mumbo-jumbo from other contracts" is unlikely to help you. IANYL, of course.
Saucy Intruder: don't artificially try to change the parties' legal rights and responsibilities.
What's artificial about negotiating changes to a poorly-drafted contract?
posted by brain_drain at 5:06 PM on March 13, 2007
I suggest you focus on the stuff that really matters to you and present a small number of changes. The excerpt you quote is obviously pretty screwed up, but it doesn't hurt you. Focus on the items of substance that truly affect your rights and responsibilities. Adding "standard boilerplate mumbo-jumbo from other contracts" is unlikely to help you. IANYL, of course.
Saucy Intruder: don't artificially try to change the parties' legal rights and responsibilities.
What's artificial about negotiating changes to a poorly-drafted contract?
posted by brain_drain at 5:06 PM on March 13, 2007
we don't trust them to do a good job with our wedding (partly true)
This jumped out at me. Would a tighter contract make you trust them more? It doesn't sound like they're very open to negotiating, either.
This is your wedding; you don't want it screwed up by a place that you don't trust and that doesn't seem willing to work with you. Have you considered a)looking farther afield for a venue b)being willing to pay more or c)moving the date to a time that more places will be available, so that you don't have to go to this particular place?
posted by Many bubbles at 5:06 PM on March 13, 2007
This jumped out at me. Would a tighter contract make you trust them more? It doesn't sound like they're very open to negotiating, either.
This is your wedding; you don't want it screwed up by a place that you don't trust and that doesn't seem willing to work with you. Have you considered a)looking farther afield for a venue b)being willing to pay more or c)moving the date to a time that more places will be available, so that you don't have to go to this particular place?
posted by Many bubbles at 5:06 PM on March 13, 2007
He also said he didn't even want to bother running it by their lawyer, which made me more frustrated with him and the professionalism of the business.
No, that's plenty professional for his business, just not so useful for your wedding. He doesn't want to spend hundreds of dollars on a lawyer for one customer who he's already identified as being a troublemaker, especially if it means reducing your risk at his expense.
Welcome to the world of wedding vendors: Demand is far higher than supply, and vendors can be choosy in who they decide to allow to be their customer. If you don't take the venue for that day, there's a lineup of brides happy to take your place.
posted by mendel at 5:18 PM on March 13, 2007
No, that's plenty professional for his business, just not so useful for your wedding. He doesn't want to spend hundreds of dollars on a lawyer for one customer who he's already identified as being a troublemaker, especially if it means reducing your risk at his expense.
Welcome to the world of wedding vendors: Demand is far higher than supply, and vendors can be choosy in who they decide to allow to be their customer. If you don't take the venue for that day, there's a lineup of brides happy to take your place.
posted by mendel at 5:18 PM on March 13, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by acoutu at 2:37 PM on March 13, 2007