What's an MPhil really worth?
March 6, 2007 2:48 PM Subscribe
What's an MPhil worth in America? (more inside)
I'm a college senior, currently awaiting graduate school responses from UC Berkeley, UC Santa Barbara, UNC Chapel Hill, and the University of Arizona. It's about that time to worry that I won't be made any monetary offers. I've been accepted to Cambridge's MPhil program in the History and Philosophy of Science, but they are asking for the US equivalent of about $30,000. Do any of you have experience with MPhil degrees and US grad schools? Specifically in philosophy? What are the chances that an MPhil would make a real difference in terms of scholarship offers? Also, is anyone with Cambridge experience willing to tell me more about the MPhil program in Hist/Phil of Science?
I'm a college senior, currently awaiting graduate school responses from UC Berkeley, UC Santa Barbara, UNC Chapel Hill, and the University of Arizona. It's about that time to worry that I won't be made any monetary offers. I've been accepted to Cambridge's MPhil program in the History and Philosophy of Science, but they are asking for the US equivalent of about $30,000. Do any of you have experience with MPhil degrees and US grad schools? Specifically in philosophy? What are the chances that an MPhil would make a real difference in terms of scholarship offers? Also, is anyone with Cambridge experience willing to tell me more about the MPhil program in Hist/Phil of Science?
Oxbridge does things weird. They give an automatic MA to all undergrads who have passed with their Bachelor's (someone correct me if I'm wrong). The MPhil is the actual Master's that Cambridge grants -- so it's a "real" Master's. You should be able to explain that to anyone in the States if necessary, and the fact that it's from Cambridge should be more than enough.
Not related to your original question, but my parents live in Cambridge, and it's a fantastic, fantastic, fantastic city. You should definitely go.
posted by kdar at 3:29 PM on March 6, 2007
Not related to your original question, but my parents live in Cambridge, and it's a fantastic, fantastic, fantastic city. You should definitely go.
posted by kdar at 3:29 PM on March 6, 2007
Two friends in my PhD program both came in with Cambridge MPhils. That said, both also have Harvard BAs, and I believe that one of them wasn't completely impressed with his experience at Cambridge. The MPhil is probably as worthwhile as an MA from a quality institution in the States (we have a lot of Chicago MAs in our program also, for some reason). Still, I think the majority of us went straight from BA to PhD, and most reputable American schools give multi-year fellowships for PhD students (often ALL incoming PhD students). So that said, I'll repeat the old adage: if you have to pay for grad school, don't do it. Do you really want a $30,000 debt to pay when you're an unemployed humanities PhD?
posted by The Michael The at 3:35 PM on March 6, 2007
posted by The Michael The at 3:35 PM on March 6, 2007
Oxbridge does things weird.
Indeed. At Cambridge, undergraduates get a BA (even if they're reading for a degree in the sciences). About three years after graduating, they are automatically awarded an MA. In Scotland (where undergraduate degrees normally take four years, unlike England where they are normally three years), undergraduates graduate with an MA. In the Oxbridge case, the confusion this can cause is somewhat reduced by the custom of putting a abbreviated version of the Latin name of your university in brackets after the MA [i.e. MA(Oxon.) or MA(Cantab.)].
posted by Aloysius Bear at 4:01 PM on March 6, 2007
Indeed. At Cambridge, undergraduates get a BA (even if they're reading for a degree in the sciences). About three years after graduating, they are automatically awarded an MA. In Scotland (where undergraduate degrees normally take four years, unlike England where they are normally three years), undergraduates graduate with an MA. In the Oxbridge case, the confusion this can cause is somewhat reduced by the custom of putting a abbreviated version of the Latin name of your university in brackets after the MA [i.e. MA(Oxon.) or MA(Cantab.)].
posted by Aloysius Bear at 4:01 PM on March 6, 2007
I can't exactly answer your question, but I do have a something to say! I have a British MA from a good school (SOAS), which was respected as an equal MA when I applied to PhD programs.
It seems that most PhD programs, depending on the field, give a TON of support. The only advantage that I had by doing mine in the UK is that it got over with more quickly.
I'd wait to see what kinds offers you get.
posted by k8t at 4:24 PM on March 6, 2007
It seems that most PhD programs, depending on the field, give a TON of support. The only advantage that I had by doing mine in the UK is that it got over with more quickly.
I'd wait to see what kinds offers you get.
posted by k8t at 4:24 PM on March 6, 2007
I am doing an M.Phil in International Relations at Oxford. A number of people from my program are going on to top notch doctoral programs in the US (Harvard, Columbia, etc).
I don't know how similar things are in philosophy, but having an OxBridge M.Phil is certainly a leg up on an American undergraduate degree.
That said, if money is a concern, think about applying straight to American schools. They are much better funded than Oxford and Cambridge, and much more likely to provide substantial financing to graduate students.
I can put you in touch with some people doing philosophy here, if you are interested.
posted by sindark at 4:46 PM on March 6, 2007
I don't know how similar things are in philosophy, but having an OxBridge M.Phil is certainly a leg up on an American undergraduate degree.
That said, if money is a concern, think about applying straight to American schools. They are much better funded than Oxford and Cambridge, and much more likely to provide substantial financing to graduate students.
I can put you in touch with some people doing philosophy here, if you are interested.
posted by sindark at 4:46 PM on March 6, 2007
Is there any way in which a masters in history and/or philosophy is ever worth $30,000+? (Does that even include cost of living, airfare, etc?) That is a huge cost, and unless you can justify it in terms of a really big starting salary, or in terms of an irreplaceable intellectual opportunity (such as working intensively with Dr Bigshot who will later hook you up with grants, jobs, and publications), I don't think it makes much sense.
Caveat: I am not a philosopher. But IAIA (in academia), and financial offers to incoming phd students at any university I've known are not increased for students with a previous masters degree. Some programs fund every admitted student (these are the kind you want to go to, because then the students are not competing against each other for funding). Others fund some, and admit others with no or partial funding. Maybe at those places you could be more "fundable" if you had a MPhil, but that is an expensive way to buy yourself a phd stipend. A year spent taking classes and writing some serious grant applications, or working like a dog and saving lots of cash, would seem to me to be better invested.
posted by Forktine at 4:52 PM on March 6, 2007
Caveat: I am not a philosopher. But IAIA (in academia), and financial offers to incoming phd students at any university I've known are not increased for students with a previous masters degree. Some programs fund every admitted student (these are the kind you want to go to, because then the students are not competing against each other for funding). Others fund some, and admit others with no or partial funding. Maybe at those places you could be more "fundable" if you had a MPhil, but that is an expensive way to buy yourself a phd stipend. A year spent taking classes and writing some serious grant applications, or working like a dog and saving lots of cash, would seem to me to be better invested.
posted by Forktine at 4:52 PM on March 6, 2007
I would not touch that with a ten-meter pole.
Standard advice about nonprofessional graduate school: Either go to an excellent program where you are fully funded, or do not go at all, with a few exceptions for state schools with weird funding rules.
If you want a terminal MA for whatever reason, there are a lot less expensive ways to do so than to wander over to the UK.
If you're not getting into your preferred programs, first talk to people in your current department about why that might be and what you might be able to do to remedy it for next year's application cycle. If they don't have a clue, contact the DGS at the schools who rejected you or didn't offer you funding; you might eventually be able to get a straight answer.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:04 PM on March 6, 2007
Standard advice about nonprofessional graduate school: Either go to an excellent program where you are fully funded, or do not go at all, with a few exceptions for state schools with weird funding rules.
If you want a terminal MA for whatever reason, there are a lot less expensive ways to do so than to wander over to the UK.
If you're not getting into your preferred programs, first talk to people in your current department about why that might be and what you might be able to do to remedy it for next year's application cycle. If they don't have a clue, contact the DGS at the schools who rejected you or didn't offer you funding; you might eventually be able to get a straight answer.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:04 PM on March 6, 2007
I second ROU_Xenophobe: follow the $ (whether it's in the form of an assistantship, fellowship, anything). Unless you're applying to one of those departments that just won't fund beginning graduate students--some of Berkeley's programs were like that in the early 90s--$ signifies that the program is committing to you, not just you to them.
posted by thomas j wise at 7:14 PM on March 6, 2007
posted by thomas j wise at 7:14 PM on March 6, 2007
Best answer: I'm in philosophy. I don't have a short answer for you, but a bunch of considerations pro and con, to offer.
1. Don't enter a philosophy PhD program if you're not fully funded. This means they pay your tuition and give you enough money from TAing or fellowships that you can live on it. Now that should be a minimum of something like $18/year, depending on cost of living.
2. Don't enter a philosophy PhD program if you're not into a top school. (Top depends on the field and if you have a specific person you want to work with etc -- read the caveats that come with the Leiter report. But the job market really is as tight as everyone says, and unless you're in a recognizably good department your chances are much worse.)
3. Recognize that a terminal master's on philosophy will not allow you to teach at a US university. You need a PhD for that. (You probably already know this) So, supposing you get the MPhil and then don't get into a PhD program, what would your Plan B be? You could teach philosophy at a private high school. Or you could go into any of the many fields that good communication and reasoning skills suit you for. (But you could do that now, without shelling out $30K.) Think about whether this is an okay option for you.
4. Getting an MPhil from Cambridge certainly won't hurt, and might indeed help your admissions chances. Any American department that's worth getting a degree from will certainly know what an MPhil is, no worries there. But just a degree from Cambridge would be no guarantee of admission. The bar will be higher for you, coming from a master's program. You would need to impress someone at Cambridge as being extra hot stuff, so he/she can write a glowing personal letter for you, and you'd need to write an excellent writing sample. (But of course, you can do the amazing writing sample on your own and apply next year, without spending $30K.)
5. Unless you are independently wealthy, in general you should probably not pay $30K to get a master's degree in a humanities field. You should only pay for advanced degrees if your earning potential after the degree allows you to pay off the loan; in most cases in philosophy it won't. (see #1)
6. My feeling has always been that an MA in philosophy is most useful (in the US system) when the candidate was an undergraduate major in a different subject, and now wants to do philosophy. In the last ten years or so, there has been more of a trend of people getting MAs before coming to a PhD program.
7. Getting an MA will give you a better sense of what you would want to do dissertation work on, a more full sense of the field and who you might like to work with. (And whether you want to continue in philosophy at all!) If you use the time well, it could be a great advantage -- you could target your application to someone you know is likely to appreciate your work, and you can discreetly ask his/her grad students how he/she is to work with, before applying, so you get a sense of whether you'd want to spend 5+ years working with them. You could learn another language, if it will be needed for your projected PhD research (eg in history of science). You could do interdisciplinary work in a science, if that's supported at Cambridge.
8. Final warning: I don't know about Cambridge specifically. Some schools have a very open admissions policy to their master's program, allowing more people to enter than they can possibly give a first-rate education to, and asking these people to pay. For such programs, the master's program is a money-maker. Then most master's students are told that they would not be permitted to continue, to get a PhD. The risk is that you would be paying a lot of money and not getting the attention of a full faculty member. Before you accept, ask around among current Cambridge MPhil students (if you can find some of their addresses) about how much they feel the program treats them. See if there are any other options for funding, too!!
I guess my answer would be:
If your financial situation allows you to eat the cost of tuition, living expenses, travel etc -- if you can afford it easily, then hell yes, go, enjoy, make the most of it. But if your financial situation is such that you would have to borrow the money, then think carefully about whether there's another option open to you. Philosophy can be a great field, but it's not a remunerative one. You will have a hard time paying off that debt.
Are you getting good advice from your undergrad advisors? (My email is in my profile if I can help more.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:37 PM on March 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
1. Don't enter a philosophy PhD program if you're not fully funded. This means they pay your tuition and give you enough money from TAing or fellowships that you can live on it. Now that should be a minimum of something like $18/year, depending on cost of living.
2. Don't enter a philosophy PhD program if you're not into a top school. (Top depends on the field and if you have a specific person you want to work with etc -- read the caveats that come with the Leiter report. But the job market really is as tight as everyone says, and unless you're in a recognizably good department your chances are much worse.)
3. Recognize that a terminal master's on philosophy will not allow you to teach at a US university. You need a PhD for that. (You probably already know this) So, supposing you get the MPhil and then don't get into a PhD program, what would your Plan B be? You could teach philosophy at a private high school. Or you could go into any of the many fields that good communication and reasoning skills suit you for. (But you could do that now, without shelling out $30K.) Think about whether this is an okay option for you.
4. Getting an MPhil from Cambridge certainly won't hurt, and might indeed help your admissions chances. Any American department that's worth getting a degree from will certainly know what an MPhil is, no worries there. But just a degree from Cambridge would be no guarantee of admission. The bar will be higher for you, coming from a master's program. You would need to impress someone at Cambridge as being extra hot stuff, so he/she can write a glowing personal letter for you, and you'd need to write an excellent writing sample. (But of course, you can do the amazing writing sample on your own and apply next year, without spending $30K.)
5. Unless you are independently wealthy, in general you should probably not pay $30K to get a master's degree in a humanities field. You should only pay for advanced degrees if your earning potential after the degree allows you to pay off the loan; in most cases in philosophy it won't. (see #1)
6. My feeling has always been that an MA in philosophy is most useful (in the US system) when the candidate was an undergraduate major in a different subject, and now wants to do philosophy. In the last ten years or so, there has been more of a trend of people getting MAs before coming to a PhD program.
7. Getting an MA will give you a better sense of what you would want to do dissertation work on, a more full sense of the field and who you might like to work with. (And whether you want to continue in philosophy at all!) If you use the time well, it could be a great advantage -- you could target your application to someone you know is likely to appreciate your work, and you can discreetly ask his/her grad students how he/she is to work with, before applying, so you get a sense of whether you'd want to spend 5+ years working with them. You could learn another language, if it will be needed for your projected PhD research (eg in history of science). You could do interdisciplinary work in a science, if that's supported at Cambridge.
8. Final warning: I don't know about Cambridge specifically. Some schools have a very open admissions policy to their master's program, allowing more people to enter than they can possibly give a first-rate education to, and asking these people to pay. For such programs, the master's program is a money-maker. Then most master's students are told that they would not be permitted to continue, to get a PhD. The risk is that you would be paying a lot of money and not getting the attention of a full faculty member. Before you accept, ask around among current Cambridge MPhil students (if you can find some of their addresses) about how much they feel the program treats them. See if there are any other options for funding, too!!
I guess my answer would be:
If your financial situation allows you to eat the cost of tuition, living expenses, travel etc -- if you can afford it easily, then hell yes, go, enjoy, make the most of it. But if your financial situation is such that you would have to borrow the money, then think carefully about whether there's another option open to you. Philosophy can be a great field, but it's not a remunerative one. You will have a hard time paying off that debt.
Are you getting good advice from your undergrad advisors? (My email is in my profile if I can help more.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:37 PM on March 6, 2007 [1 favorite]
I had a few friends in that program and got an MPhil myself from Cambridge. To be honest, if you're paying full-price it's just not going to be worth it. It's a year off, lots of fun, and there's almost no sueprvision so you can do what you want. It's a pricey vacation without a scholarship and it won't really help you much in getting into a PhD program in the states. It can help you get into the 3-year PhD at Cambridge if you score high enough on your papers to get funding.
posted by allen.spaulding at 7:42 PM on March 6, 2007
posted by allen.spaulding at 7:42 PM on March 6, 2007
Also, in the US graduate programs in philosophy all agree to an admissions deadline of April 15. Typically there is lots of action in the days right before that deadline, as students who have been weighing multiple offers finally make their decision, and the rejected schools make offers to the next applicant on their list and so on. Don't commit to anything before April 15.
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:47 PM on March 6, 2007
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:47 PM on March 6, 2007
Cambridge is an amazing city, the Mphils are generally good programs - but it is super expensive to do as an overseas student. And they are definitely not direct lead-in degrees for the PhD - they do admit many more to the Mphil in History, at least, than they will take in for the PhD. Only 1/3 of the students I met last year in one MPhil continued on, maybe less.
If you can do it with funding, even partial funding, it can be very rewarding. But to get funding in the UK, you generally need to make outside applications (unlike some American universities), and you may not hear about funding for a humanities degree until late summer, even September. Have you applied for a Gates scholarship? ORS funding (partial tuition coverage)? Some colleges also have also-ran funding, for students who have applied but failed to get funding - at my husband's college, they do what they can, but you generally have to have a number of rejection letters to show that you have been applying for funding.
Cambridge funding applications are extra crazy bureaucratic - they've spent the last 800+ years thinking of ways to torture applicants. They will actually have you fill in multiple copies of your application, and then send them all to the same office. It can be done, I know lucky people who have managed to get funding, but most everyone has their own horror story of dealing the Cambridge admin.
It may actually be too late for you to make many funding applications if you haven't, but I will note this for any other overseas students thinking of studying in the UK: plan at least 18 months ahead. Applications for overseas funding to UK graduate programs are generally due about 12 months before that program begins, some sooner, some later. Funding is competitive, but not impossible, and don't forget, you can also take funding from your own country (so for Canadians, a SSHRC is a good award to study in the UK, though it won't cover tuition).
I'm not an overseas student at Cambridge, but I am married to one, and know many.
posted by jb at 2:45 PM on March 7, 2007
If you can do it with funding, even partial funding, it can be very rewarding. But to get funding in the UK, you generally need to make outside applications (unlike some American universities), and you may not hear about funding for a humanities degree until late summer, even September. Have you applied for a Gates scholarship? ORS funding (partial tuition coverage)? Some colleges also have also-ran funding, for students who have applied but failed to get funding - at my husband's college, they do what they can, but you generally have to have a number of rejection letters to show that you have been applying for funding.
Cambridge funding applications are extra crazy bureaucratic - they've spent the last 800+ years thinking of ways to torture applicants. They will actually have you fill in multiple copies of your application, and then send them all to the same office. It can be done, I know lucky people who have managed to get funding, but most everyone has their own horror story of dealing the Cambridge admin.
It may actually be too late for you to make many funding applications if you haven't, but I will note this for any other overseas students thinking of studying in the UK: plan at least 18 months ahead. Applications for overseas funding to UK graduate programs are generally due about 12 months before that program begins, some sooner, some later. Funding is competitive, but not impossible, and don't forget, you can also take funding from your own country (so for Canadians, a SSHRC is a good award to study in the UK, though it won't cover tuition).
I'm not an overseas student at Cambridge, but I am married to one, and know many.
posted by jb at 2:45 PM on March 7, 2007
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An old friend of mine got an MPhil between his MA and PhD, so I always assumed that the MPhil was in between the other two degrees in terms of "rank". He's got a tenure-track position now, so it doesn't seem to have hurt.
posted by mcwetboy at 3:15 PM on March 6, 2007