Dysfunctional family

February 7, 2007 1:10 PM

I need advice on dealing with a desperate mother who wants her adult daughter to stay by her side.

This is lengthy, so please be patient, especially if there are details here that seem trivial or unnecessary.

My mother has a loveless marriage. My parents have never gotten along and never understood one another. I grew up hearing them have awful shouting and screaming matches almost everyday. It's worse when we go on family vacations.

My mother seems to think that now that I'm an adult, I should be looking after her. But "looking after her" seems to mean that I should stay by her side. She's gone hysterical the three times that I travelled abroad without her. And if I mention moving away for grad school or for work. And if I sometimes want to do work (schoolwork, writing, whatnot) outside of the house. And if I show any interest in my father's side of the family, or if I appear to take my father's side on any issue, no matter if he's right and she's wrong.

Maybe she thinks that me, being female and her daughter, will understand just how miserable she is in her marriage. My mom is actually ok when my dad's out of the picture. I spent a week with (just) her once and gained a measure of respect for her--she was curious, industrious, and willing to try new things. It's her behaviour when it involves me going away anywhere and leaving her with my dad that drives me nuts--then she gets pushy, emphasizes the importance of a close mother-daughter relationship (what relationship?), clingy, manipulative.

I'm more like my dad than my mom, for better or worse. A lot of my needs (as I was growing up) were sort of treated like just-another-item-to-tick-off-the-list-of-daily-chores by my mom, or they were criticized or ignored altogether, so I can still be pretty bitter and angry towards her. Count that with the fact that my university years have been one long episode of squashing my own dreams and denying my own wants, needs, and likes, some of it from familial influence; what I want and need now is to figure myself out and go after my dreams aggressively, in a way to make up for the time lost and gain back a measure of self-respect and happiness. I have a lot of regrets hounding at the door. I'm also afraid to sacrifice more years of my youth, because frankly, I don't see very many of it left. A lot of my plans include travelling and perhaps living abroad. I also want independence, and I'm tired of the family drama.

I've asked my mother if she would come with me if I lived elsewhere, and she refused. She's against me getting my own apartment in town (not that I can afford it at the moment anyway, and I suppose if I were to ask her to come live with me she might approve). And where does my dad fit into all this? If I "chose" my mother I'd be leaving my dad out, and I don't want to choose between my parents. Pretty much my presence in the family home right now is the only thing keeping them half-civil to each other. That's probably why my mom freaks everytime I talk about moving out.

I have a sibling who lives in another country (and has for the last five years, coming back for annual visits), and he thinks that I should stay in town (and stay in the house) for our mother, that I should put family ahead of myself. We have a lot of relatives' families like this. But to me it's like living in the past or trying to fix the past. He reiterates his position whenever I start talking about my plans. He can't move back home because there aren't any jobs for him (in his field) here.

After all this, well, they're my parents, and what are my obligations to them, to each of them? I happen to be from a culture that places high emphasis on familial relationships. My mother's desperate (I gather she's never exactly liked me, but she's doing whatever it takes now to make sure that I'm here for her), she has no relatives or friends she can really move in with, no personal fortune of her own or anything or the nature to strike out on her own. She refuses family counselling too, never mind personal counselling.

Any comments? Is my stance out of line? Am I over-analyzing, taking too much or too little responsibility? Is there anything I can do (from the details given) to minimize this, or some compromise that I might have overlooked? Has anyone been through something similar? Present home life is completely unsatisfactory, aggravating and stressful, and I'll end up hurting my family a lot by following through with what I intend.

posted by anonymous to human relations (53 comments total)

It's your life, not your mother's. It's not her place to say how you should live it.
posted by oaf at 1:26 PM on February 7, 2007

(And where you should live it.)
posted by oaf at 1:26 PM on February 7, 2007

You should live your own life. Not the life your mother wants you to have, not the life your brother wants you to have. Your family may not like you for asserting your independence, but they will respect you more when you do so.

Don't bear the burden of worrying about how they will feel about your actions. How they feel about things is their own responsibility, not yours.
posted by jamaro at 1:27 PM on February 7, 2007

Your parents have chosen unhappy lives with each other. That was their choice, that they made and continue to make every day. Furthermore, they don't even *want* to change. You can't change any of that. Nothing you do or don't do will make the slightest bit of difference to their unhappiness.

All you can do is choose to make a happy life for yourself, which probably involves being far, far away from these unhappy people.
posted by jellicle at 1:28 PM on February 7, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

Live your life. Include your parents in your life to the extent that you want to, but don't sacrifice your goals for theirs.

Changing the status quo will be difficult for you and from the sounds of it for your mother, but you (and she) won't grow unless you're put into situations that are outside of the familiar and comfortable.

Your mother may not be happy with your choices initially, but ultimately she'll come to terms with it and you might find she will come out stronger for having had to accept your choices for yourself

You say your mother won't consider counseling, but you might want to consider it for yourself.
posted by willnot at 1:28 PM on February 7, 2007

Wanting out of emotionally abusive situations is not out of line. I left my mother when I was 16 and I've never once regretted it. She and I haven't spoken in 9 years and I plan to keep it that way, despite that my older sister is able to maintain a close geographical relationship with her.

I don't have the energy for someone who is always that angry at me, and abusive toward me.

Now, there have been a lot of changes in how I deal with these things over the years. I strongly recommend getting an impartial third party to listen to you on a regular basis. If you are involved in church, this might be a minister or pastor there, could be someone you pay for psychology. Don't try to make your brother or other family members into your confidant, it will get ugly.

I don't know if my leaving my family has caused any long lasting damage to my mother, as my sister and I don't discuss her. I'm still putting parts of myself back together from the terrible things that were done to me in my childhood, so I don't think it's my fault if my leaving caused them any pain.

You can't protect your mother. If you want to email me, you can get me at renee dot phillips at gmail.com

Best of luck to you in this. It's really hard, but taking the active step is so liberating. I mean, taking this crap from a mom is such a passive thing.
posted by bilabial at 1:29 PM on February 7, 2007

jellicle nails it.
posted by meerkatty at 1:29 PM on February 7, 2007

Your brother is being a hypocritcal dick when he tells you to stick around, so definitely tune him out. He's either A) trying to make you take care of all the family trouble so that he doesn't feel guilty about not doing it, or B) trying to accomplish his family duties vicariously, by making you do everything (hell, maybe those are even the same thing). Anyway, whatever you do, count his opinion right out.

Beyond that... sheesh, it's hard. You definitely need to live your own life, but this will not be easy on your mother. I guess do what the others have said, but I know it's not easy.
posted by rkent at 1:32 PM on February 7, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]

If it were me (female, straight, live in USA, white, kinda crazy mom and not-close family, mom is never "well", middle class background, college educated - to qualify a bit since that may well matter in this case as this stuff influences my comments) I would move far enough away that you can't drive there in one day's time. Then I would get on with my life.

I know this can be a bit cold sounding, but my mom "needed" me, and was a constant victim my whole life and I couldn't be everything to her or do everything for her. And it wasn't that she needed ME, it was that she needed someone or something.

My compliance with her neurosis wasn't helping either of us. It was making me bitter, mean, resentful at both of us, and it kept her weak and crazy. I left, she is still upset (12 years later) but has her own life and has found others to do everything for her. I am happy, have a good life.

If I could help her I would, but my help has to be on her terms, and when it is it also hurts us both. And if she had ever liked me as a person I am sure this may have turned out differently. I love her, i don't enjoy her. I talk to her often. I am now married and have a kid and she hates my husband and "loves" my kid even though she shows no interest in him when we visit. I try to see my son for who he is, treat him as a person and protect us both from her circles of influence.

She would just as well bind someone else to her as have me, so I will let someone who wants that kind of relationship have it. I have to accept her for who she is and accept that she probably won't change. ANd I have to be who I am and accept that I won't likely change enough to have no needs of my own and be able to be and do everything for her.

Good Luck! No matter what you do it will probably be hard. Think about the long term if you can. Maybe go to grad school far away. If your brother can live abroad it serves him if you stay - then he doesn't have to feel guilty or have responsibility.
posted by henryis at 1:32 PM on February 7, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]

Oh man. Been there. I really feel for you.

You are not your parents' slave. You weren't put on earth to be your mother's emotional crutch. It's very difficult to put your own needs first, especially because it doesn't sound like anybody's ever really done that before for you, but that's what you do have to do.

Your mother sounds like she's very unhappy because she's put other's needs, wants and desires before her own. It seems like the selfless, right thing to do -- but then you feel trapped, become resentful, and rely too heavily on others for your own sense of happiness and fulfillment.

I have been through something VERY similar with my family, it took me years of therapy to work up the courage to step forward and live the life that I wanted, not the life that others wanted for me; I still struggle with it every day.

The unfortunate part is that compromise is often not on the menu. It might be in your case, but in my experience, I had to completely break away, because trying to ride the line between addressing my needs and my family member's needs was too difficult for me - the person I was trying to appease would never be - the dysfunction and wrong-headed emotional thinking were just too great.

If your mother could have a moment of clarity - and see beyond her own misery for just a moment, I am sure she would want for you what you want for yourself.

Please go and seek therapy. You need someone to help you understand how these cycles work and how you can stop them. You are not over-analyzing or taking too little responsibility.
posted by pazazygeek at 1:34 PM on February 7, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Move out. Get a room, anything, whatever it takes, but create some spacial distance between you and your mom. As it is now, you two are doing the same song and dance where she's attempting to control you and she's leading.

Get an apartment in town at first and make sure to visit her regularly. This may force her to grow with you, so that you two can have a better relationship.

You owe your parents some respect and time and to look after them as they get old. You don't owe them your sanity or happiness. Each person has to make that for themselves.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:41 PM on February 7, 2007

You need to set some boundaries, and if it's easier to do so by moving far away (and I suspect it will be), then do it. Your mother is an adult, and as others have said, she has made choices - and continues to make them - that make her unhappy. It is not your job to fix this. This doesn't mean that you can't love her, respect her, enjoy her company etc., but you cannot be her sole support, and she is wrong to ask that of you. I had a complicated relationship with my mother - though not this complicated - and I think it took me longer than it should have to start drawing some lines.

And whether or not your future choices (moving away to go to school, traveling) make your family respect you is irrelevant. Make those choices for yourself, and not for them. It is your life. (Also, ignore your brother; he should put his money where his mouth is.)
posted by rtha at 1:43 PM on February 7, 2007

Dump the mother already.
Be honest, be blunt, tell her everything you've told us. But get the hell out. Study abroad, look for jobs somewhere else, and when she objects just say that you've got to do it for you.
Oh, and it sounds like telling your parents to think about divorce might not be such a bad idea either.
posted by klangklangston at 1:47 PM on February 7, 2007

My mom tried to talk me out of going to college. I went to college. She tried to talk me out of studying abroad. I studied abroad. Same for living on my own and moving to Chicago: she didn't want these things but I did, so I went for it. There were tears, yelling, recriminations. We did not speak to each other for two years. When we did reconcile, things were so much better: we both learned to stand on our own and can now relate to each other in a more normal, healthy way.

So, yes: get out. Live your own life. While she may resent you initially, she will get over it. You must bear it. You must grow. And (with time and self-awareness) so will she.

Go. Go now. Best of luck.
posted by gsh at 1:51 PM on February 7, 2007

I will Nth the "live your own life" advice, and I will also second the advice that you should make it a near-term goal to move to a fairly distant city. On your own.

It should be the goal of every parent to rear children who are self-sufficient adults. Not children who will be props in a passive-aggressive conflict with other family members. Her expectations of you are unreasonable and unfair.

Furthermore, by sticking around, you make it easier for your mother to avoid coming to terms with the bad relationship she has with your father. It will be difficult, but in the long run, your moving out might be the kick in the pants it would take for her to find some resolution for that issue.
posted by adamrice at 1:59 PM on February 7, 2007

I happen to be from a culture that places high emphasis on familial relationships.

So, not that this is the central point of your story, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the culture in question is Chinese or Indian. But the specifics aren't really that important.

If it's a situation where your parents are immigrants and you're the first generation born in the country, it's not uncommon to have an intra-family culture clash. Perhaps your mother stayed with her mother for a long time and simply expects you to do the same. But her expectations of how a "good daughter" behaves might be pretty different from yours (well, that's actually kind of obvious from what you've written).

Regardless, the advice is simple, like other have already said: live your own life. She won't die without you. She might be mad, but that's her fault, not yours.
posted by GuyZero at 2:06 PM on February 7, 2007

I personally feel the same way as the commenters above, but I have a feeling that the cultural issue you mention is key. Our Anglo culture has a strong preference for individual choices, personal actualization and so on. Anglo culture looks at family situations like yours and thinks that there's something wrong, that the family is too enmeshed and that everyone can and should make their own individual choices.

Maybe it's the same cultural background that makes your brother think it's ok for *him* to be far away living his own life, but that since you're a woman you should continue to be subservient and a caretaker.

You don't mention what cultural group you're from, but I think you should try to look for guidance from people who are part of that culture but who also have managed to negotiate the Anglo preference for autonomy and individual destiny. Maybe there are therapists or others in your community or online who would be able to understand the pressures of your culture and can thus help you deal with this cultural conflict within you and between you and the other members of your family.
posted by jasper411 at 2:07 PM on February 7, 2007

Nthing the advice to leave, but also I would like to add to what some others have said in this thread about your brother. Position-where-parents-live or not, I think they he needs to be told directly just how absurd and unkind his assertion that you stay put really is. I do not care if he cant get a job in his field where you live. He could get a job, any job, and he could help, if he really cared to do so at all. He does not, and I personally feel (so take that Internet advice for what it is worth) he needs to be confronted with the fact that you see through that garbage. Some families, including my own, call on the women to make all the sacrifices. Nuts to that, I say.
posted by oflinkey at 2:08 PM on February 7, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Or, what jasper411 said.
posted by oflinkey at 2:09 PM on February 7, 2007

I have little to say on the mother/daughter dynamic, but one thing caught my eye:

he thinks that I should stay in town (and stay in the house) for our mother, that I should put family ahead of myself

If your version of this is correct, it seems to me that your brother is being deeply cynical and manipulative here. More so than your mom, even though she's the subject of your post.

When he says he wants you do "put the family ahead of yourself" what he really means is that you should do whatever suits him, whatever makes it easier for him to ignore your mother/father dynamics. That you are being slowly crushed is irrelevant; as long as he doesn't have to feel guilty about mom it's OK.

I am fond of overwrought gestures, which I mention as a brief warning before I give my advice: leave precipitously. Plan carefully, lay out a separate life for yourself, and then one day just leave. Tell your mom when you go, and tell your brother after you've already left (because if you tell him beforehand I'm willing to bet he'll try to sabotage you). Please note: I am largely ignorant of the cultural details that may be at play here.
posted by aramaic at 2:09 PM on February 7, 2007

I really felt for you reading your post.

First, ignore your brother. It's extremely hypocritical for him to say you should stay, while he's not even in the same country. If he's that concerned he can move back home and find a new line of work.

Your parents have chosen the relationship they have; you don't need to be in the middle of it, or feel forced to take sides.

I think you need to look at things in the longer term. Would you be happy being exactly where you are in five years? Ten years? I bet you'd feel like you've cheated yourself out of a life since you don't even sound like you're happy now. So do what you need to do. Move out, move to a new city, for work or grad school, or whatever. Don't ever invite your mom to live with you again, and certainly not once you've got your own place. That's only going to make you miserable. There are a lot of people in this world I wouldn't want to live with or live with again.
posted by 6550 at 2:10 PM on February 7, 2007

You have just described my mother, and I'm as stuck in half-realized dreams as you. I think jellicle's answer is best.

I'm already planning ways to be able to afford grad school in another town, because there's no other way of "escape".

Leave!
posted by flibbertigibbet at 2:16 PM on February 7, 2007

what I want and need now is to figure myself out and go after my dreams aggressively

of course.

[my mother has] no personal fortune of her own

of course she does! she has 50% of an established marriage for better or worse. your staying at home may be holding up her accessing her tied assets.

My mom is actually ok when my dad's out of the picture. I spent a week with (just) her once and gained a measure of respect for her--she was curious, industrious, and willing to try new things.

please do your mother a favour: move on... before it's too late for her (too).

include your family in your life (for a change). show them how it's done and keep sending your brother "wishing you were here" postcards.

cheers
posted by de at 2:18 PM on February 7, 2007

I was manipulated from a young age to provide emotional and other support for my mother. I regret that I gave up so many years to her because despite all it cost me, she never tried to help herself.

Get away, and get some emotional distance. Some people (not me) are able to develop mature ways of dealing with clingy parents from a position of strength. They decide their boundaries and do not let others break them. (Some counsellors/therapists can help you develop strategies).

You don't have to agree with your cultural norms. It's an effort to make a conscious decision to flaunt them (I know), but it's truly worth it.
posted by b33j at 2:33 PM on February 7, 2007

You're not being unreasonable. Your mother's been a martyr for her husband and children all her life and it has made her unhappy. She's desperate and resentful, and that's coming out in her treatment of you; she's manipulating you (whether consciously or not) into living the same life she has done, putting other's needs before your own. If you don't want to end up just as unhappy and frustrated in 25 years' time, you have to get away and live for yourself, make your own life. That will be very hard on your mother, but as others say, it won't kill her and it may force her to begin doing something for herself. And I agree with all the comments about your brother; you're making it easy for him to fob your parents off as someone else's problem.
posted by andraste at 2:39 PM on February 7, 2007

Get a job, save money in an account your mom doesn't know about. If that requires bumming at friends' places for a bit while you get on your feet, then do that after explaining your situation as you have above. This will allow you to GET OUT OF THE HOUSE, which is what you should be doing as soon as you can.

Needy parents are the worst. Mine drove me away, and to commercial success & to introspection and hopefully a pretty awesome life. My half-brother's mom kept him at home. He's over 35 now and never had a girlfriend and has to take prescription drugs to cope. Please leave before it's too late for you to learn what life is supposed to be like - what you make it into, not what someone demands you to make it.
posted by lorrer at 2:44 PM on February 7, 2007

To add: What aramaic said could work well for you. Worked for me. I got tickets across the country to live with my sister for my senior year of high school. I messed up by leaving written evidence at home and police got involved about a week and a half before my departure. I was put in a group home for a week on my request, but at the end of that time was forced back. A day or two later I caught my plane. I still have a relationship with my mom, who claimed she needed me back then. She's been living on her own just fine for the last eight years, and I visit about once a year.
posted by lorrer at 2:50 PM on February 7, 2007

You're hurting your mother by staying. You mother and father need to sort out where their relationship is heading. Get out; it's the best thing for all involved. It's also disrespectful for a child to mediate disagreements between parents, and you can tell that to any who believe that you're being untoward.
posted by koeselitz at 2:56 PM on February 7, 2007

You can't control how your mother behaves, but with hard work you can control how her behavior affects you. You need to work on building an emotional barrier. When she does the stuff she does, don't take it to heart. Tell yourself, "That's just mom." When things are shitty between her and your dad, don't take it to heart. Tell yourself, "They're grownups and they're living the life they've chosen." Your mom has the right and the ability to leave your father. If she's chosen not to do so, that's her burden. You have the right and the ability to leave your parents' house. That you've chosen not to do so is your burden. It's time to get out.

If you're firm with your mom and live your own life, she will still love you and she will grow to accept your decisions. It won't be easy, and you'll have to work really hard to remember that it's her weakness, not yours, that's reflected when she behaves badly. But it will get better. If you're not firm, your mother will continue to try to control you.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 2:56 PM on February 7, 2007

Seconding everyone else that you're your own person and not your mother's tool, or an object for her to use.

they're my parents, and what are my obligations to them, to each of them?

No matter what tales your cultural background whispers in your ear, children don't owe parents anything. Your parents brought you into this world for their own purposes, whatever they might be, and without your consent. Your existence is their choice, not yours, and they owe you big for pushing that on you.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:24 PM on February 7, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

As someone who has done the "stick around" thing for quite some time (and still is), I have to say ... do not even hesitate to leave. Filial piety aside, everyone will say it's really cool that you're sticking by your mom, but the reality of the situation is that you will have no life of your own, and you will be living with someone who will continue to treat you with the same level of respect they had for you when you were five. You can and will lose the most exciting years of your life that way, and you will get absolutely nothing in return. Sorry, personal soapbox, but that's how I feel.
posted by adipocere at 4:39 PM on February 7, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

One of the key reasons young people move away from the family is so they can decide who they are when out from under the familial microscope. As long as you live at/near home you will always be the person as defined by your family.

The family has their definition of who you are and they will not let you invalidate that definition by changing to any significant degree. Not while they are within daily reach of you.

Just go. And when you do, refuse to participate in the home drama.
posted by trinity8-director at 4:46 PM on February 7, 2007

1) Get as far away as you possible can, as soon as you possibly can.
2) Convince your parents, or at least your mother, to get counselling or therapy or some kind of professional help. It sounds like she really needs it, and that is a kind of assistance you just cannot give her.
posted by nightchrome at 5:30 PM on February 7, 2007

For years I suffered from my mother behaving hysterically if I didn't call her enough or visit as much as she wanted or do things with her and I often gave in for the sake of peace. If I didn't give in I was 'selfish' or 'didn't care about my family'. When I became engaged my fiancé encouraged me to stand up to her, as otherwise she was going to ruin our relationship with her constant demands. When I stood up to her and made it plain that we needed some space to ourselves, she became even more hysterical and started making false accusations against him and me. At that point, the penny dropped. The happier and more independent I was, the more my mother hated and feared that, even to the point where she was prepared to risk my first ever genuinely happy and loving relationship to get her own way. It suddenly dawned on me at that point who was 'selfish'.

Your mother is not interested in your happiness, only in her own insecurities. She has done little to nurture you, and yet she expects you to nurture her by giving up your future and your chances in life - who's the parent here? Who exactly is behaving like a dependent and selfish child, despite being an adult?

At the moment your mother's issues show themselves over things such as where you live, but the chances are very high that these kind of abandonment issues will surface later too, if you get a partner or a husband. She may try hard to ruin the relationship 'to keep you'.

Your brother's attitude, by the sounds of it, is not only hypocritical but sexist. He thinks it's ok for him to as a son to leave home but you as a daughter must stay and suffer and give up any chances of happiness. This is discrimination - women have suffered from this sort of thing in traditional societies for thousands of years. We are brainwashed into thinking that if we, as opposed to our brothers or elders want any quality of life, then we must be selfish and wrong. It's bullshit. The selfish people are those who dont think women deserve an equal chance at happiness and independence, but who think instead that women exist only as carers for others.

If you want a life, get out now and stay out until you are in a position to set good boundaries with her - strong enough to resist the hysterics and not be guilted into doing things which harm you. It's painful because these hysterics will tug at your heart strings and make you feel bad, but the pain of suffering occasional tantrums while having a generally happy and independent life is much less than living in misery, having given up everything that might make you happy and still having to cope with your difficult mother.

Bite the bullet of the hysteria, accept that it will be painful temporarily, but get out. See if there's some way you can establish contact with your father independent of her. Find friends and support for yourself. It will be tough. You will feel bad initially but it will be worth it, as when you are stronger and more independent, you will be better able to set boundaries and to cope with your family.
posted by Flitcraft at 5:33 PM on February 7, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]

I don't have much to add other than I feel you and it's time to bail the fuck out.
posted by sperose at 6:22 PM on February 7, 2007

The MeFi chorus' response to so many relationship questions is "end it". And I'm sure that if you read back over your post, you'll realise that you're really looking for affirmation of decisions you've already made. So no surprise that you're getting what you needed. A couple of observations, though:

The fact that you're thrashing this out in here with us suggests to me that you don't have much of a support network outside your family. If so, you might want to look to fixing that.

Families are (or should be) safety nets. I know that no matter how spectacularly I crash and burn, I'll always have food and a place to sleep. I'm not saying the advice you've been given is wrong, but I wouldn't go so far as to cut my family off completely. Ok you can't be a mobile buffer state for your mother, but you can be a sympathetic ear at the other end of a phone line. Still supporting, but on your terms.
posted by Leon at 7:00 PM on February 7, 2007

Yeah, nth the "plan your escape" response. Save some money, on the sly if you have to, and try to network such that when you have a safety cushion of money saved up, you'll be in a good position to take that leap.
posted by Alterscape at 7:17 PM on February 7, 2007

Hi, are you me? You've described my mum pretty well. We may have the same cultural hangups too - my culture places major importance on filial piety, and my mum keeps going on about how I have to "take care of them" someday. The main difference is that my mum is slowly (sloooooooooooowly) getting rid of the Empty Nest Syndrome that has plagued her since my sister left the house about 14 years ago. But it'll take ages, if ever.

Is she resentful that your brother left and is taking it out on you? I know my parents aren't very happy that my sister decided to settle permanently in the UK instead of coming back to join them. Often this gets taken out on me - I can't use the phrase "it's my life" anymore because my sister used it one time, they got offended, and now if I imply anything of the sort I'm a bad uncaring kid. My sister understands me; your brother doesn't seem to understand you, which is a bit of a drawback.

How are your finances? Do you depend on either for anything material or financial? I'm still stuck with my parents somewhat for university fees and living expenses; I don't earn enough to cover them all. If you can get yourself financially independent, the transition out would be much easier.

Good luck; we're all rooting for you.
posted by divabat at 7:17 PM on February 7, 2007

We become those that most oppress us. That is to say, we tend to internalize familial voices and oftentimes begin to mistake them for our own.

Barring major health crises, et al, you have a right to your own autonomy and agency; go do what you need to do in your own life.
posted by exlotuseater at 8:19 PM on February 7, 2007

Leon, I would be careful not to confuse the current majority opinion with an "end it" attitude towards the situation. I don't see many people suggesting that she end her relationship with her mother.

Rather, I see people suggesting ways to move from an unhealthy relationship to a healthy one, even if that means initially putting great physical and emotional distance between her and her mother.
posted by odinsdream at 8:37 PM on February 7, 2007

From yet another person who's been there, please know that your life -- your independent real life -- can be so much better than I bet you ever dream.

About two weeks ago, a co-worker of mine (and friend) pointed out to me as we walked to lunch that I smile an awful lot, that I always seem happy. And after thinking about it, I said that it was because after so many years of unhappiness, I finally got free and am living a wonderful life, and I'm just so frickin' grateful all the time now, because I will always remember how bad it was. I have autonomy and someone wonderful to love and my own income doing a job I am proud of having. I'm free, and after two decades of not-free, it's an amazing feeling. So yeah, I smile a lot.

You will too. Save your money, make a plan, and hang in there.
posted by Asparagirl at 10:02 PM on February 7, 2007

Oh, and to second lorrer's point:
Needy parents are the worst. Mine drove me away, and to commercial success & to introspection and hopefully a pretty awesome life.

Backgrounds like yours (ours) can actually be a real advantage in that they motivate one to work very hard and consequently do very well at one's eventual career. It's that whole dramatic Scarlett O'Hara "I'll never be hungry again!" kind of thing. If you manage to get out, you ain't never going back.
posted by Asparagirl at 10:25 PM on February 7, 2007

Please excuse the overly long comment, but I want to tell you that you have described my exact situation about four years ago. Just add in multiple divorces and other failed relationships and substance abuse and mental illness and you have my mother.

What your mother is doing is a form of codependency. I was born when my mother was 19 and I always felt (though she never outright said it) that she resented me for "ruining" her life. As though it were my decision to be born.

She claimed she needed me though she never treated me with respect or dignity, and she facilitated this need by making sure I also "needed" her — she paid for my college and bought me a new car, paid all my bills and provided me with every creature comfort under the sun, which made it inconvenient for me to move out (since she threatened to pull all financial funding fromm me).

What she didn't provide me with was love, and I often felt, due to her multiple, volatile relationships, that the love I provided as her child was never enough. Finally, after graduating college and falling into a thick depression myself, I packed up everything and moved 8 hours away, to a new state and a big city where I knew no one.

I had to work two jobs (80 hours a week!) to pay my bills. I bounced many, many checks. I ate things like ramen and canned tuna. I also didn't talk to my mother for months at a time. Finally, I told her that if she wanted to call me to ask how *I* was doing, that was fine, but she was no longer allowed to call me crying or to complain about some percieved non-drama in her life. Not long after I moved, I got a heart-breaking and scathing letter from my grandfather (who is also an alcoholic) telling me I was no longer welcome in the family since I had chosen to abandon it. Now, when I call to speak to my grandmother during the holidays, I can hear him in the background telling her to make excuses for why he can't talk to me.

I look back on that time after I moved now and only have happy memories. I worked ALL THE TIME but I also had more freedom and fun than I've ever had in my life, and I was able to meet and marry my husband during that time. Now I live 6,000 miles away from my family and have never been happier. I talk to them occasionally but on a very polite and superficial basis.

My brother, who is 21, now lives at home in my old place. He dropped out of high school, does not go to college, and does not work because my mother takes care of all his needs, so he doesn't have to. I think this is more harmful for him that if he'd been raised without a mother at all. I don't talk to them much and I often fear that one day I'll wake up to a letter that my mother has killed herself or drank herself to death or some other tragedy. This is extremely upsetting, but the relationship is not worth to me all the drama and sadness and stress that it caused.

If you'd like to talk you can email me at bridddnay at yahoo.

/therapyfilter
posted by Brittanie at 12:19 AM on February 8, 2007

When you are 25, 30, 40, 50, do you want to look back at your life and realize you have done nothing with it, because you folded and gave up your future for someone who never treated you well?

Seriously, either run far far away or set up doable plans to leave and get on your own two feet.
posted by lychee at 1:23 AM on February 8, 2007

i'm not a psychiatrist but the patterns you mentioned seems like a case of borderline personality disorder.
From National Institute of Mental Health:
" People with BPD often have highly unstable patterns of social relationships. While they can develop intense but stormy attachments, their attitudes towards family, friends, and loved ones may suddenly shift from idealization (great admiration and love) to devaluation (intense anger and dislike). Thus, they may form an immediate attachment and idealize the other person, but when a slight separation or conflict occurs, they switch unexpectedly to the other extreme and angrily accuse the other person of not caring for them at all. Even with family members, individuals with BPD are highly sensitive to rejection, reacting with anger and distress to such mild separations as a vacation, a business trip, or a sudden change in plans. These fears of abandonment seem to be related to difficulties feeling emotionally connected to important persons when they are physically absent, leaving the individual with BPD feeling lost and perhaps worthless. Suicide threats and attempts may occur along with anger at perceived abandonment and disappointments."
I'd recommend to do some reading on the subject and find a therapist to work on possible guilt, attachment, abandonment feelings.
Good luck.
posted by caelumluna at 6:46 AM on February 8, 2007

I'm so sorry you're in the midst of this. You could be describing parts of my old life. I chose to break free and now am in a wonderful marriage. We don't yell ever and we solve conflicts respectfully and efficiently. We love being together and are generally very happy. It's out there waiting for you, but you have to make a break for it.

We only get about 80 years here, and that's not even guaranteed. Don't waste what could be a beautiful life worrying about obligation and what your family thinks of you. Get out, get out, get out. Get some counseling, follow your dreams, make your life fulfilling and worthwhile. Change will be hard and there will be harsh words, no doubt. Come on back here and we'll do what we can to encourage you in your transition. Soon you'll find a community that encourages you, where you can give and receive and have relationships that are good for you.

You sound like a generous, giving person and your personality and kindness could be used somewhere where you will be appreciated instead of walked all over and abused. Very best of luck to you.
posted by orangemiles at 7:24 AM on February 8, 2007

jellicle completely nails it. You can't control your mother's choices, or your brother's, or your father's. You can only control yourself. Face it - your parents have had many many years to make their lives better, but they haven't done so. Either they need a severe kick in the pants to get them going, or they never will. If you stay, nothing will change. If you leave, maybe their lives will get worse or maybe they'll get better. Your life will certainly get better. Take a chance, do what you need to do. Move out, move far far away. Live your own life.
posted by marginaliana at 7:40 AM on February 8, 2007

I am trying to understand why your mother and brother would want or expect you to live with your parents forever. It doesn't make much sense to me.

My suggestion would be to apply to a graduate school far, far away and then when you get in claim it's one of those opportunities you can't pass up. Even sooner than that I would move into my own apartment, and just make it as clear as you can that it's not to hurt anyone's feelings, you just feel you need to be on your own and experience that for a while.

I have a friend who had a Greek boyfriend. The family all lived together and expected the boy to never live on his own, never go to school, and never date anyone who wasn't Greek. This family to my mind was parasitic. They didn't really want their kid to grow. They weren't evil people, but they were very narrowminded.

Anyway, I think your family might be a bit like that. It will only become clear just how poisonous that is once you leave and broaden your horizons. I don't see anyone thinking about your needs in your family, so you better.
posted by xammerboy at 7:43 AM on February 8, 2007

Hey, has my internal dialogue been taking a walk without me knowing and posting on mefi? Good thing I keep tabs on her frequent hangouts.

Just about a year ago, and maybe the years leading up to that too, I was struggling with the exact same dillema, the only difference is that my parents weren't living together, and pretty much hadn't for over a decade, and an attempt on their part to live together again (kids are grown, taking care of themselves, dad can work less hard and spend more time with family) actually lead to fighting that I remember from when I first came to the country, and ultimately, it led to my mom filing for a divorce. The dynamic between my parents pretty much dictated how it all panned out: my mom strikes fear in everyone with her irrational outbursts of anger, while the rest of us trying to figure out a way to accomodate her new set of demands and needs.

I have a brother too, and he an I are very close, almost like best friends. He had been away at university for a year, and when he was back for the summer, he could see how unhappy I was. He was concerned that I seemed depressed, unhappy, and especially concerned with the way I 'let' my mom treat me.

Being the eldest I have a very strong sense of responsibility at home. Having grown up with a father that worked in another country and me being generally very independent and far more mature than my peers all of my life are very defining characteristics of me, and to 'abandon' my mother was out of the question, and I didn't see any alternative except to take on the world and give everything in my power to make her happy, since I seem to know her best. I am able to do this to the detriment to my own sanity; my mom would do something that upsets me and offends me, and she would be fine a couple of hours later, while I'm still hurting and confused by what she said, and it would hurt even more that she didn't realize how she made me felt. I just forced myself to get better and better at managing my emotions, for 'her own good', and it wasn't healthy. (Though it has made me incredible stable emotionally in all my other relationships, go figure.)

Long story short, my brother was there seeing all this happen, and he wouldn't let me 'forget' how my mom was treating me which is/was very similar to what has made you feel "bitter and angry" towards your mother. He was there panning my rage, and really, it was the best thing he ever did for me in my life.

I moved out. It was rough. My brother had to move out for university and my mom flipped, and that was for a 'legitimate' reason. Imagine me just wanting to move out, 'clearly' abandoning her and no longer loving her.

I moved out July 1st, and since then, I have to say my relationship with my mom has significantly improved. It hasn't been easy, and we both revert to our old patterns, but she's recognizing that I still make an effort to visit her, and that I do need time to myself (the reason I gave her for leaving wasn't that she was a bad mother, etc etc. I told her that I needed the room to grow, and that it wasn't her fault, it's just that I feel like I've stopped growing as a person). Just as my mother made moves to make her own life more happy, I guess I was following her cue to make my own life a little happier, and man, I can't tell you how happy I am. I was probably very lost for the first few months, but it didn't bother me, as I had a supportive brother and friends who all encouraged me and gave me moral support.

I don't have any advice to give but this: how can you keep loving and taking care of your family if you are killing and hurting yourself while doing it? That's not a meaningful life. You need to take care of yourself before you can take care of someone else. Imagine the mountain of resentment and bitterness you'll have to live with while taking care of your parents (they're only going to get older). You might end up hurting them more by doing something rash and irresponsible because you haven't dealt with your own needs, and is that what you'd want? Suffer the pain that comes from instigating change that has been long-due, and a new equilibrium will find itself.

E-mail in profile if you'd like to talk more.
posted by margaretlam at 9:13 AM on February 8, 2007

Uh... 'fanning' my rage. Not panning.
posted by margaretlam at 9:25 AM on February 8, 2007

odinsdream: you're probably right. It's just that when I see such a consistent response to such an complex, emotionally charged situation, I worry that we're (collectively) missing some of the nuances.
posted by Leon at 9:44 AM on February 8, 2007

Get out and make a life for yourself. Your own life, by your own definitions.

Right now, you don't know what life is like without the constant pressure from your mother. You don't have the depth of experience. From your post, your self is trying desperately to discover those things to know what you want from life.

It's time for you to gather resources and friends for support, make a plan in secret so you won't be sabotaged, and then make the jump.

You'll see how your family will react to your new-found freedom. Go from there. Remember that boundaries are a very important part to any and every relationship. See where you need to draw them with your family to remain happy and sane. If you aren't happy or sane, there's no way you can really help anyone else. It just isn't possible. If they're anything like my family, they will guilt trip you for having those boundaries. Do not put a higher value on their feelings than your own. That is causing a great disservice to yourself. Hold to your boundaries, push away the guilt they'll try to put on you, and live your own life.

Get that experience of actually living and reevaluate. Always reevaluate. See what you need to be happy.
posted by Nerro at 12:02 PM on February 8, 2007

Been there. Done this. I started out small with setting boundaries with my mom. Baby steps. Read the books The Dance of Intimacy and The Dance of Anger which are practical, sensible books that teach you how to talk to someone that you need to create emotionally healthy boundaries with. Then there was the therapy. And moving away. And holding my ground.

That was, let's see, 15 years ago? Wow. Yes. My relationship with my mom is pretty good these days and she has become much more independent. She still lives 1/2 country away from me though.
posted by jeanmari at 7:03 PM on February 8, 2007