Comments on: My kingdom for a garbage disposal that works!

Question: My kingdom for a garbage disposal that works!

sarahnade — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:08:23 -0800

Should we ask for a rent reduction because we can no longer dispose of food in our garbage disposal?

We (myself and drstein) live in Sunnyvale, CA, one of the highest-rent cities in the US. We have a 1-br loft apartment, about 850 sq. feet, in a large managed apartment complex. The apartment and the complex have many amenities. For all of it we pay $1610 a month, plus utilities. We have 6 months left on our lease, and after that we'll probably move to a cheaper place.

We have had a few problems with the garbage disposal in our apartment. It stopped working twice, both times we pressed the red button to try and reset it ourselves, and nothing happened. The on-site maintenance man came and fixed it both times, the second time leaving a note that said "Get a sink trap." We did not, and have since used our garbage disposal without problem. Of note, the second time it broke, there was no object in the disposal as far as we knew, it just stopped working. The dishwasher is also connected to the disposal, so any food scraps from plates/pots go there (of which there are very few at this point, as I pretty much pre-wash everything d/t the dishwasher also being crappy).

Yesterday we came home to a note on the door, which every other tenant had also received, instructing us not to put any food down the disposal. They say, in the letter, that the disposal is simply "to make the water drain faster." I feel this is ridiculous, and if I'm not able to use the disposal for its intended purpose, then I shouldn't have to pay for the "convenience" of having it. We already try to keep out all the restricted things, like vegetable peels, etc. Garbage disposals are not super expensive, a more powerful one could be bought for under $100, and the labor to install it would not be that expensive either, I presume.

We have not yet paid our rent for February. So should we withhold a portion of the rent (I was thinking $25-50/month), along with a letter stating why? Or should we pay Feb in full, with a letter asking for a rent reduction? What would you do?

By: sarahnade

sarahnade — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:11:41 -0800

I forgot to say, we are simultaneously talking to a lawyer as well about this issue.

By: hermitosis

hermitosis — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:18:10 -0800

I'd say you'd have the most influence by simply circulating a letter for all the tenants to sign which you can present to the landlord. If everyone has a problem with it, the landlord will feel more pressure to correct the situation.

A respectful, firm letter of complaint stating what you want to happen is a step in the right direction. Approach the other tenants politely one at a time and be gracious if they choose not to sign.

By: tastybrains

tastybrains — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:27:42 -0800

Most garbage disposals aren't really for dumping lots of food down, and in every complex I've ever lived in, we've been asked to use food traps. It's just for small scraps of food that get washed down. A lot of food items will completely clog and break almost any garbage disposal, so if you had been trying to use it to dispose of almost all food items, then it's no wonder it keeps breaking.

I don't really think that a working garbage disposal is a right - it's a luxury and unless it's specified as part of your lease, I doubt you have any recourse whatsoever other than buying your own place where you can take matters into your own hands.

By: drstein

drstein — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:33:00 -0800

tastybrains: This is the first complex I've lived in that has ever come up with such a rule. The exact model of disposal we have costs less than $50. Ours has stopped working twice, and now they're telling everyone that they're going to charge them for disposal repairs. The only food going down the thing IS small food scraps. One of the times it broke, I looked down into it with a flashlight and found no food items at all.

By: amro

amro — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:33:53 -0800

I'd let it go. Maybe use the disposal at your own risk but pay for any necessary repairs yourself. Unless it's specifically stated in your lease, your landlord is not obligated to repair the garbage disposal, as it's failure to work does not make your apartment uninhabitable. From the CA Landlord/Tenant Handbook:

Under the "implied warranty of habitability," the landlord is legally responsible for repairing conditions that seriously affect the rental unit's habitability. That is, the landlord must repair substantial defects in the rental unit and substantial failures to comply with state and local building and health codes. Generally, the landlord also must do maintenance work which is necessary to keep the rental unit liveable. Whether the landlord or the tenant is responsible for making less serious repairs is usually determined by the rental agreement.

By: amro

amro — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:36:29 -0800

Shoot, that's "its" not "it's."

By: These Premises Are Alarmed

These Premises Are Alarmed — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:40:44 -0800

What would you do?

Not use the disposal.

By: tastybrains

tastybrains — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:41:16 -0800

The only food going down the thing IS small food scraps. One of the times it broke, I looked down into it with a flashlight and found no food items at all.

My bad, I missed that part.

Still, it's really not that uncommon for apartment complexes to have disposals that they don't really want you to use. It's stupid, but I've lived in two different complexes outside of Boston and they have both had this sort of rule. I only run the disposal for a few minutes with nothing in it before I run the dishwasher because sometimes if I don't the dishes come out stinky (don't ask me).

But it's still not a right, so unless your lease specifies that they agree to provide a functional garbage disposal, I doubt pursuing legal action or withholding rent is going to do you any good. That sort of stuff is for when you are without water, hot water, heat, or your apartment has otherwise been rendered uninhabitable. Most people live quite happily without a garbage disposal, so I don't see how you have an argument.

Unless it's in your lease, specifically. Then you should argue on that basis, since they aren't holding up their end of the agreement.

By: zachlipton

zachlipton — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:49:52 -0800

Certainly withholding $25/$50 a month over a broken garbage disposal that costs no more then $50 seems rather excessive. To put it another way, if your landlord installed a garbage disposal for you, would you be willing to pay $25-$50 extra a month because of it? Since you're planning on moving out in 6 months anyway, I'd let it go. After all, as you say, you were barely using it before.

By: mikeh

mikeh — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:53:26 -0800

Unless your local laws say that landlords must provide a garbage disposal, or your rental agreement specifically lists it as a provided appliance, they don't have to supply one. You could argue that you rented the place based on the fact that there was a provided garbage disposal and the situation has changed to wiggle out of your rental agreement, but I doubt that's going to go anywhere.

By: drstein

drstein — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:01:08 -0800

From the lawyer:

"We really don't have much of a case to withhold rent because it's not actually affecting the livability of the apartment. If it was clogging up the drain and stuff, then we'd have more of an argument but as it is now, it's more of a nuisance."

We can write them a letter protesting it, and we're going to keep documentation of the issue. The thing has pooped out twice already, and I want to be able to demonstrate that if it happens again under normal usage. I don't want to have them slap us with a $200 bill for repairing a $35 unit that has a history of malfunctioning.

Most of this is a "CYA" type of move anyway.

We found good information here too.

By: jacquilynne

jacquilynne — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:01:17 -0800

While you might ask for a rent reduction based on the lack of a garbage disposal, unilaterally withholding some of your rent money isn't likely to be the right way to do that.

By: nakedcodemonkey

nakedcodemonkey — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:02:59 -0800

Let this one go. Really.

As for repairs, for $5-6 (try Home Depot) you can get a special hex wrench that fits into the service slot in the bottom of the disposer. 9 times out 10, the "dead" disposer is just jammed -- a quick turn of that wrench = instafix.

The true purpose of garbage disposals is to send plumbers' kids to college.

By: desuetude

desuetude — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:10:01 -0800

zachlipton makes a very good point. How can you justify withholding $25-50 for something that costs $100?

By: thilmony

thilmony — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:17:57 -0800

A Minnesota Landlord here - you are being a baby about this. Is it in your lease that you get a working disposal? If not, it sure was nice of your landlord to provide it gratis all this time.

By: stefanie

stefanie — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:18:28 -0800

Any apartment you move into is going to have the same cheapo garbage disposal (if it has one at all), with the same problems. If you really need to have a deluxe disposal, go buy one and install it yourself (it's not that difficult; more like changing a really heavy lightbulb). Keep the old one and reinstall it when you move out, then take your spiffy turbo disposal with you to your new place.

Spend $100, save hours of hassle dealing with your landlord and his plumber and get a disposal that does what you wanted it to do in the first place. It's a win-win.

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:22:24 -0800

You have a crappy garbage disposal that doesn't work well and breaks often, which means you often can't use it. Management is just saying that it's better for everyone if you don't use it, which is a conclusion you pretty much came to on your own, before that announcement.

If you want to pay someone to do something about it, have someone come in and install a better garbage disposal that you'll be responsible for.

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:25:15 -0800

Or, what stefanie said.

By: wryly

wryly — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 11:42:16 -0800

When you were deciding to rent this apartment -- if there had been no garbage disposal, you'd have chosen to live there anyway, at the same rent. I can understand why you're irritated, but save your ire until the landlord takes away something significant, like washer/dryer or lighting in a stairway.

By: Green Eyed Monster

Green Eyed Monster — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:18:19 -0800

My parents owned rental properties for many years... Do you know how many times they've had to have the disposals fixed in the various properties? It was almost up to once a month. Finally they just gave up on keeping them working, cause, frankly, it is a luxury, and not a major appliance. One time, they actually pulled a dish towel out of the darn thing. A DISH TOWEL! How in hell did they even get it down the drain? Even if you guys can use one like grown-ups, there are probably plenty of tenants who can't.

By: hifiparasol

hifiparasol — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:30:25 -0800

Wait, what? You shouldn't put vegetable peels down a garbage disposal? It's only for "small scraps of food?" I've lived in many places with many garbage disposals, and I've never seen one that couldn't handle just about anything I could throw at it. The one in my current apartment took down a whole beet (peel and all) last week. Seems to me you have a crappy disposal -- or, more accurately, every unit in your complex does (but other than that and the high rent, it seems like you have a decent place)

I do tend to agree that this isn't something you should sweat over. For me, apartment repairs come under two headings: Stuff I can easily fix myself (and keep tabs on), and stuff I call the manager to replace. For example, I replaced two electric range burners when I arrived, but kept the broken ones. I'll put the broken ones back when I leave, and take the new ones with me should I ever leave again. You might solve the disposal problem in a similar way. YMMV in terms of how involved your manager is with the whole process; mine couldn't care less as long as I don't do any damage to the place myself; yours may be more anal.

By: drstein

drstein — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:53:13 -0800

"Even if you guys can use one like grown-ups, there are probably plenty of tenants who can't."

That was the tone of the letter they taped to everyone's door. We're just worried about getting hit with a repair bill if the thing poots out again due to no fault of our own.

By: birdherder

birdherder — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 13:11:35 -0800

Wow. Unless I lived in a historical landmark I would expect a working disposal. If it worked when I moved in, I would expect the care and maintaintance of the unit while I live there. And garbage disposal is often listed as a "feature" of an apartment unit. Maybe I shouldn't use the microwave or dishwasher as those items might break.

If my landlord said the disposal is so the water would drain faster I'd laugh. I'd also keep using the disposal in a reasonable manner. And if it broke, I'd call the landlord to fix it. If they said they wouldn't fix it, then I'd seriously consider moving at the end of my lease. Because if they won't fix this, why should I believe they will fix something else? There are countless other places in town that will let you use your disposal and take your money.

Part of the benefit of living in the big corporate managed apartment complex is the on-site staff that fixes things that break. That is part of the deal.

Legally, you don't have a leg to stand on. But your expectations of being able to use your garbage disposal are not unfounded.

By: necessitas

necessitas — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 13:30:11 -0800

I'm with Ynoxas and birdherder. I would ask them about repairing it daily. You moved in to an apartment with that feature, and there is no reason to expect you shouldn't be able to continue using/having that feature in working order.

I'll bet if you called up the complex as if you were interested in moving in and asked about a garbage disposal, they'd tell you the units had them (not water drainers).

By: plinth

plinth — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 13:39:03 -0800

Funny, I saw a thing on Discovery Channel about how Insinkerators are made and tested. They throw beef bones into them.

I'd insist that having an appliance designated as one thing and then be told that it, in fact, can't be used for that is silly. You could play this card, "If you installed a clearly defective air conditioner, would you consider it reasonable to tell us that it's only to be used as a fan?"

The landlord/property management company clearly got swindled into this by a contractor with a good price tag and have been losing money hand over fist trying to make them work and don't like the prospect of either (a) continuing to fix them (throwing good money after bad) or (b) replacing them all with something that can actually do the job, because both of these paths cost money, so why bother?

Should you withold a portion of your rent? Won't do you any good at all. They'll just deduct it from your deposit when you move out or make up a cleaning fee that is impossible for you to argue with, hoping that you're happy to get out of there.

By: Mayor Curley

Mayor Curley — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 13:39:51 -0800

How does everybody seem to live in one the highest-rent cities in the US?

By: thilmony

thilmony — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 13:48:58 -0800

Ynoxas:

Garbage disposals are not required items like heat, windows, roof, door locks...

What if there was glade plug in when you moved in? If the place starts to stink do I have to come and replace it? What if they don't make that scent or size anymore, am I required to replace the entire thing?

By: jacquilynne

jacquilynne — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 14:03:50 -0800

If in the marketing literature for your building, or during my tour of the place prior to renting you had, at any point, mentioned glade plug-ins as a feature of the apartment, then, yes, I would expect you to continue to provide them. Not necessarily the same size/scent - but the poster doesn't seem to care if it's the same disposal unit, she just wants one that works.

If people chose rental units based on nothing but the minimum legally mandated services, there'd be no market for luxury apartments with more than heat, bare lino floors and tiny windows. But if you're offering those extras as part of the deal, and the extras go away, you're morally, if not legally, obligated to make good on the promise rather than threatening your tenants with extra fees for things that aren't their fault.

By: bh

bh — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 17:05:51 -0800

As a possibly useless data point, I lived on the ground floor of an apartment building for a short time, and the upstairs neighbors would throw various items in the disposal, clog the plumbing, and the sewage would back up into my tub, out of the toilet, etc. That was more of a problem with the plumbing, and it got me out of the lease easily.

Have you checked with people on the bottom floor to see if they know another reason the disposals are not being maintained?

As another useless data point, when I bought a house, I installed the cheapest disposal I could buy, because after doing the math it was cheaper to replace if it broke. It is still going strong, although I don't throw bones into it.

By: drstein

drstein — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 18:25:37 -0800

"How does everybody seem to live in one the highest-rent cities in the US?"

Countless websites say that we actually do. One of the top 10, anyway. It's the Silicon Valley, and our rents have been going up an average of 12% a year. But that's another thread entirely. Once this lease is up, we're moving to a cheaper place if we can find one in a decent neighborhood. Getting out of this lease would cost us thousands of dollars. (THAT much is very clearly spelled out in the lease.)

plinth: It's not an In-Sink-erator. if it was, we woudn't be having this thread. :) The particular unit we have is a $35 unit from Contractor's Warehouse.

By: vaportrail

vaportrail — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:22:19 -0800

Having been an apartment manager, and installing several of the cheap disposal units you refer to--I would suggest you run out and buy a nice unit, install yourself (20 minutes max). Take it with you when you move. The cheap units aren't worth a crap. Your maintenance person has no choice in the matter--He would like to install a better unit just as much as you do.

Just make sure you have the newer, quick release style mounting bracket. A quick turn of the bracket, pull off one hose, and transfer the electric pigtail to the new unit--done.

Probably can be done with a single flat blade screwdriver.

No lawyers, no arguments, and you still have a nice disposal when it's all over with.

By: Ynoxas

Ynoxas — Sat, 03 Feb 2007 08:31:45 -0800

vaportrail: be sure to read all the comments. They have already tried the polite request and follow up approach. The result was a blanket posting to the entire residence that garbage disposals are for WATER ONLY.

By: jessamyn

jessamyn — Sat, 03 Feb 2007 18:18:17 -0800

[a few comments removed, if you can't answer the question without calling people jackasses, take it to metatalk or email]