Comments on: A good bar for single, but not desperate, women in Phoenix

Question: A good bar for single, but not desperate, women in Phoenix

notjustfoxybrown — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 16:34:31 -0800

Can I, as a single woman, sit in a neighborhood bar reading a book or a magazine without looking desperate or lame? Can you suggest such a bar in the Arcadia/Central Phoenix area?

I'm new in town and would like to find a good, dive-y neighborhood bar with a friendly crowd/bartender where I'd be comfortable sitting alone. We used to do that a lot in New York and it was perfectly OK...I'm black, so it would be nice if it was also a bar where no one would say "Hey, why is that black girl sitting by herself over there...in THIS bar?"

By: Steven C. Den Beste

Steven C. Den Beste — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 16:42:02 -0800

What do you care what other people think? Let 'em think what they want to.

By: muddgirl

muddgirl — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 16:44:37 -0800

In my experience, if you sit at the bar and tip well, no one will bat an eye.

By: stormygrey

stormygrey — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 16:46:25 -0800

From a bartender's eye, there are most certainly bars around where this would not seem odd at all. I love customers like that.

I don't know about your area though.

By: FlamingBore

FlamingBore — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:02:40 -0800

No recommendations for where, but just a word to say that I used to do this all the time. It's, perhaps sadly, how I became a regular at a bar I eventually worked at.

Of course, I eat alone and go to movies alone too when the mood strikes. Go have fun.

By: crabintheocean

crabintheocean — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:06:41 -0800

Oh please Steven, you really think that's just a matter of self-consciousness? You have no idea why it might not be a relaxing situation?

Sorry, notjustfoxybrown, I don't know the area. But I can understand the desire, and I hope you get some more constructive answers soon. If not, Citysearch is often helpful.

By: notjustfoxybrown

notjustfoxybrown — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:09:59 -0800

I was waiting for someone else to put Steven in his place. Thanks Crab for not making me do it myself. I often dine/go to theater and movies alone so I have no problem keeping myself company. The bar, though, is another thing altogether though.

By: tristeza

tristeza — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:26:25 -0800

I am not black, but...I have been going to bars by myself and sitting and reading for many, many years. I don't think I've come across as desperate or weird, because I'm really just minding my own business. I also couldn't give a fuck if anyone thinks I'm lame. I feel perfectly at home in the diviest of bars, but that might be different if I weren't white and going to mainly white bars (white bars? you know what I mean).

I will 100% of the time choose a bar over a coffee shop to go read or websurf and hang out alone, I really love it.

By: thehmsbeagle

thehmsbeagle — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:50:22 -0800

I don't actually go to bars by myself, BUT, I often arrive early and read while waiting for running-late friends to arrive. (LA traffic!)

I find that I am most comfortable doing this in your more Irish-y/pub-style places, whereas people are most likely to be sketchy to me when I'm in your more... glossy, martini-centric places.

Also, I believe that the closer to the bar you are, the more people think of that space as a common area: reading or not, men will talk to you at the bar, whereas, reading alone in a booth or at a table, you usually get left alone. (Of course, if you'd like to chat with strangers, that's a counter-productive strategy, but if you're just trying to read your freakin' book, it's helpful to sit far away from the bar, in my experience.)

By: sien

sien — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:57:28 -0800

Jumping on Steven in this case is unfair. Here is a guy who comes on MeFi and disagrees with most of us and really does his own thing. He actually practices what he is preaching here.

He really has a point in this case, the first part of this question is related to how you feel. Make your own kind of music etc.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:01:05 -0800

I personally have never thought of women alone in bars and restaurants as desperate or lame, especially if they're reading. Just a data point.

By: redsparkler

redsparkler — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:11:08 -0800

I usually feel the most comfortable doing this at a bar I frequent regularly, but I've done it in completely new bars, as well. I'm pretty sure it doesn't look desperate, even though it can feel a bit awkward at first, like everyone's looking at you.

By: notjustfoxybrown

notjustfoxybrown — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:12:41 -0800

Just a point of clarification. I mention my race only to eliminate someone suggesting, say, the bar where the monthly Klan meeting is held. Otherwise, I live in Phoenix. Clearly, I'm not uncomfortable around white people.

By: crabintheocean

crabintheocean — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:19:49 -0800

Jumping on Steven in this case is unfair. Here is a guy who comes on MeFi and disagrees with most of us and really does his own thing. He actually practices what he is preaching here.

A white guy practicing what he preaches to a black woman is not all that impressive.

I can't believe the weird answers this simple question is getting. She asked for a bar suggestion in a specific town, not personal advice on how she should feel. Has no one here ever walked into a strip club when they weren't looking for one? I don't understand the responses to this.

By: Steven C. Den Beste

Steven C. Den Beste — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:30:31 -0800

My answer may have come off as flippant or pugnacious, and if so I apologize. I stand by the content of what I said, however.

It's a lesson I learned from Richard Feynman, who learned it from his wife.

When I was young, I often felt self-conscious doing certain kinds of things, because "What would people think?" One of the great liberating moments of my life was when I realized that I didn't care what those people thought; I'd never seen them before, and would never see them again, and what they thought didn't matter to me.

I'm not completely oblivious to what others think about me, but the only ones whose opinions I care about are those I see on a regular basis. (And not even all of them.)

Can I, as a single woman, sit in a neighborhood bar reading a book or a magazine without looking desperate or lame?

Who cares what other people think you look like? It's none of their business why you're there, or what you're doing. If you let yourself be constrained by what you think other people will think of you, then you have constructed the bars of your own cage and placed yourself inside it.

Especially because nine times out of ten the other people won't actually think those kinds of things about you. Usually the opinions you're projecting onto them are actually your own feelings of insecurity about yourself.

If you're enjoying yourself, not breaking any laws, and not harming anyone else, then what's wrong with sitting alone in a bar reading a magazine? Who cares how it looks to anyone else?

By: fuse theorem

fuse theorem — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:36:00 -0800

notjustfoxybrown, not sure how much time you've spent in Phoenix, but you'll find that you're going to stand out pretty much wherever you go except certain areas in South Phoenix.

I don't know how fixed you are on Arcadia/Central Phoenix. If you're willing to venture out a bit, you might find it easier at places near ASU or similar locations where there is usually a somewhat more diverse crowd (diverse for Phx, anyway).

Also, probably the standard "chain" places like Appleby's or TGI Fridays might be less risky than the local dives if you pick a time that isn't their "primetime". (However, I would recommend a local place called The Vine but there doesn't appear to be one in central Phoenix; they're all further out).

Trust me, it is possible to walk alone and unawares into places in the Phoenix area and be confronted with almost palpable hostility that is racially-based. It wouldn't just be about being a woman who's alone. I know I've been very unpleasantly surprised on a few occasions (the day the OJ verdict came out was particularly interesting). You're right to be cautious.

You might try posting a carefully worded query on the Phoenix craigslist, emphasis on "carefully".

By: cadge

cadge — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:36:21 -0800

Me personally, I would feel more comfortable in this situation in a pub than a bar - pubs always feel to me like friendly hang-out place with drinks, like a living room. (Also, FWIW, I do stuff like this alone all the time.)

By: M.C. Lo-Carb!

M.C. Lo-Carb! — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:36:40 -0800

I do this from time to time myself, mostly when traveling alone for work, and wouldn't think anything of anyone else doing the same regardless of gender. I wish I could say I was confident enough to never feel self conscious, but alas, sometimes I do.

I live a couple hundred miles from Phoenix, and have been there quite a few times, but not enough to know whether suggesting Mill Ave in Tempe is totally lame or like suggesting you drive from Los Angeles to San Diego for dinner. But, it does have a lot of really nice wine bars and regular bars, especially off the main drag. I don't know whether or not they'd be considered neighborhood bars, however.

By: mwachs

mwachs — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:05:07 -0800

Haven't been there, but maybe Chez Nous?

Also, if you haven't been to Oregano's, you should eat there. Stat.

By: altcountryman

altcountryman — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:11:24 -0800

I live in a college town and see solo readers at bars all the time. If there's a college in your part of Phoenix, there's probably a nearby bar where you can do this, no prob. A little hipster dive will probably have some cool old furniture that's passable, comfort-wise.

By: faineant

faineant — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:25:34 -0800

FWIW, my experience (as both a female who has traveled alone and as one who has worked in a bar) - if you're unsure if you would be less likely to be hassled at the bar or at a table, ask the bartender. Seriously. It gives the bartender a heads up that you don't want to be bothered, and a good bartender - and wait staff- will then go out of his/her/their way to be sure you're not hassled.

If you make yourself a pleasant regular who tips well, the wait staff gets even more protective.

By: faster than a speeding bulette

faster than a speeding bulette — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:35:13 -0800

When I lived in Phoenix, I went to Willow House (a coffee house on McDowell) to read. It's close to the library, too.

Chez Nous might be a good choice, if you really need a bar. Cheap bear and a funk band is always a winning combination.

In fact, the last drink I ever had in Phoenix was a Miller High Life at Chez Nous.

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 20:12:26 -0800

I'm with altcountryman that selecting for pseudo/intellectuals is the way to avoid crass infringements on your personal space. The only worry there is they may drunkenly approach you for Your Take On The Issues As A Black Woman...

By: yohko

yohko — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 20:47:27 -0800

Who cares what other people think you look like?
Steven C. Den Beste, I believe she cares about not "looking desperate" for company that would interupt her relaxing at the bar. Sometimes, it does matter what other people think if you would like them to treat you in a particular way.

Good luck finding a bar, notjustfoxybrown.

By: Chris4d

Chris4d — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:40:06 -0800

Granted, Phoenix isn't the most diverse city, but I've lived here my whole life and I don't think race is that much of an issue to people here. Granted, I'm a sheltered suburban white kid. To me, though, hangouts in phoenix depend more on the economic/cultural vibe than the racial component. Anywhere around ASU will certainly be more diverse, but if you do a little searching you'll find places to fit your style in any part of town. I'm a young, middle class design grad, so take that fwiw, but in case your tastes intersect with mine at all, here are my preferred spots: downtown, there's the Roosevelt and My Florist. Tempe has rula bula and four peaks. scottsdale has AZ88. Depending on what you're actually looking for, I might be able to suggest something more specific, but those are my favorites.

By: mullacc

mullacc — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:45:56 -0800

Re: Arcadia locations

Tarbell's goes out the way to welcome the solo diner.

La Grand Orange has a communal table. I love that place.

Here's a thread about good solo dining spots in Phoenix from Chowhound.com. Some very good recommendations here--some in or very near Arcadia.

Here's the list of Phoenix/Scottsdale restaurants from Solodining.com.

By: mullacc

mullacc — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:56:40 -0800

I'm sorry, I mentally replaced "bar" with "restaurant"...ignore me.

By: mullacc

mullacc — Thu, 01 Feb 2007 23:03:53 -0800

It's not quite Arcadia, but my friends love a dive bar called the Swizzle Inn on the SE corner of 16th St & Bethany Home. It's definitely a dive, but the people seem diverse and friendly--for example, my two 25-year-old friends (one of whom is Japanese) were there recently and joined in celebrating the birthday of an 70-something-year-old regular by buying a round for the house.

By: xetere

xetere — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 08:58:45 -0800

Who cares what other people think you look like? It's none of their business why you're there, or what you're doing. If you let yourself be constrained by what you think other people will think of you, then you have constructed the bars of your own cage and placed yourself inside it.

In an ideal world this is wonderful advice, would that we could all live by it, but, alas, in the real world, what other people think sometimes makes a big difference in terms of personal safety.

I know nothing about Phoenix, but i do know people in other places who have had good mileage in hotel bars, you'd look like someone who is there on business and is bored with cable in room 403 and you are usually let alone, not divey though, and if you're a regular there some bartenders may get the wrong idea.

By: notjustfoxybrown

notjustfoxybrown — Fri, 02 Feb 2007 10:25:37 -0800

Chez Nous looks like it might be right up my alley. Thanks all for the suggestions/advice.

By: CCK

CCK — Sun, 04 Feb 2007 05:53:24 -0800

I second The Orange. Arcadia kinda sucks for bars.