How do I best support my wife?

January 29, 2007 9:00 PM

My wife has this annoying trait that causes arguments between us. What do I do?

My wife, who is so exceptional in so many ways, has a shortcoming that often causes fights between us. The shortcoming is that she often thinks so badly of other people - assuming the worst and unfairly accusing them of doing or thinking bad things, and that they are out to get her.

When she starts talking about someone this way, I usually try to point out that she should give them the benefit of the doubt and that they can't possibly be that bad a person. From here things usually deteriorate and we end up in a big argument. In the end she feels unsupported and accused of being a bad person. I try to explain that I don't think she's a bad person just that I don't agree with her assessment concerning these people.

I've started wondering if the best thing to do in this situation is to just ignore what she's saying, and listen and nod my head. I love her so much and I would just like to see her get over this problem but perhaps it's just part of her and I need to accept it. Any thoughts?

posted by anonymous to human relations (52 comments total)

Therapy.
posted by amanda at 9:06 PM on January 29, 2007

Ditto therapy.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:09 PM on January 29, 2007

Talk about it when you're not in the heat of the moment. If you can't resolve it through calm discussion when she's not pissed at somebody/you, then get therapy.
posted by middleclasstool at 9:10 PM on January 29, 2007

And, to answer you a little bit more, having so many destructive and negative thoughts really isn't that healthy. She probably has a deeper reason for her mistrust of others but she is obviously way too sensitive about it or unwilling to deal with it with you. Marriage counseling can be a good way to have a mediator for this discussion as well as any other issues that you two might have. Often those sessions will sometimes be broken up with individual sessions allowing your wife to discuss some of her feelings privately.

Living with someone with a persecution complex is incredibly draining. And, having that persecution complex really isn't that fun, either.
posted by amanda at 9:10 PM on January 29, 2007

The best solution (as it appears from what you've said in this question) is just to "just ignore what she's saying, and listen and nod my head". She doesn't see what she's doing as a problem and when you try to point that out to her it only makes it worse. This personality trait isn't something that directly affects your relationship except when arguments arise out of it, so the simplest thing seems to be to just "put up" with it if it's worth it. You said yourself she has a ton of other amazing qualities and this is just a flaw that you can overlook if you wish to.

Also, it can't be a great feeling to think that your SO thinks you're a bad person so maybe your approach to the situation isn't healthy either. You may be trying to get something different across but she's probably only hearing "You're kind of a bitch because you think everyone sucks".

Her views about other people probably stem from her own inadequacy especially considering that she thinks they're out to get her. For one thing, what should it matter if other people are thinking bad things? They're just thoughts, and yet this matters a great deal to her and because she can never really know what other people are thinking, her imagination can go into overdrive. In any case, if it's something she doesn't want to deal with then you don't have to deal with it either.

The only thing I can think of if you wanted to raise the issue with her again is to ask her "How would you feel if people automatically assumed the worst of you?" Maybe she just needs a small empathy shot to stop thinking the worst.
posted by liquorice at 9:10 PM on January 29, 2007

Maybe she's just a very astute person in regard to figuring out other people... Have her assessments of other people been proven right, or is she just thinking this way arbitrarily?
posted by amyms at 9:11 PM on January 29, 2007

You've left out what I would consider a key piece of information: Is she often proven right in her assessment of these people? Do they often end up disappointing or hurting her? And if so, is that because she set up a bad dynamic with her suspicion, or actually because she was right in sensing they were untrustworthy?

You might want to at least think through some of those things yourself. It's possible she's better at picking up those sorts of clues than you are, so what you see as neutral behavior, she's actually decoding differently. She might be better at reading body language than you, for instance.

One thing you might try, rather than arguing with her about how "they can't possibly be that bad a person," is just asking her what evidence she's using to come to her conclusion. If she is often wrong about her judgments, then you can use this information to learn how she's misjudging the information she gathers, and maybe gently help her remember other times in which people acted the same way, but turned out to be trustworthy.

If she has no evidence about her conclusions and those conclusions are often wrong, then I think you might just want to start ignoring her a bit.

If she's often right about her judgments and she has a great deal of evidence to back it up, however, then you should probably start relying on her more to screen your friends or co-workers and stop arguing with her about it. Reading people can be a valuable skill, and again, if she's often right about it, then it makes no sense to second-guess her.
posted by occhiblu at 9:11 PM on January 29, 2007

Smile and nod.
posted by pompomtom at 9:24 PM on January 29, 2007

Been there, my sympathies. Irrespective of who is right -- e.g., even were it a matter of her position being inferior in some "objective" sense -- this is likely to be perceived as being unsupportive. Note, in any event, the nature of your position. First, you're opposing her specific observations with a rule of thumb or optimistic presumption. Second, if you're opposing anyone's contextual judgment with the statement that it couldn't "possibly" be so (or words to that effect), you are staking a fairly broad and arguably insulting position.

I have had conversations of this kind where, however aggravating it may be, simple affirmative signals will lead the other person to soften her position on her own.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 9:30 PM on January 29, 2007

I tend to agree with people who raise the issue of whether she is proven right or not. However there is a difference in being proven right with a terrible attitude. Having such a strong negative reaction to someone, even if they are right still seems problematic to me.

Is she expressing this to anyone else but you?

If so, it might be because she feels that she feels comfortable telling these things only to you. Getting into huge fights about anything isn't desirable or productive but I realize that no one is perfect and it might seem unavoidable at times. But putting someone on the defensive isn't helpful either.

Do you just defend them to play devil's advocate? Maybe she does have a point even if it seems extreme to jump to conclusions.

I think I don't have enough information on the matter to accurately give good advice to this problem but I'd be happy to if you'd give us a bit more to work with.

Anyway - I generally agree that it's a good idea to sit down with her and try to come to an understanding why she has such a strong reaction to them. Make sure that it doesn't sound like you're attacking her personally etc... this is common sense. But like I said, more information please.
I hope this helped a bit at least.
posted by apfel at 9:36 PM on January 29, 2007

When she starts talking about someone this way, I usually try to point out that she should give them the benefit of the doubt and that they can't possibly be that bad a person...I've started wondering if the best thing to do in this situation is to just ignore what she's saying, and listen and nod my head.

You need to realize that she is probably not asking for advice or trying to start an arguement with you. Don't ignore her, listen to her in a supportive way, and read a book on gender differences in communication.
posted by yohko at 9:53 PM on January 29, 2007

You can't change other people. If you really want to be happy with your wife, you're better off accepting her for who she is. Cherish and embrace the stuff you like. With the rest of it, smile, nod, and try not to internalize.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 10:14 PM on January 29, 2007

It sounds like your wife is a cynic, while you are an optimist. It happens. Someone very close to me is in the former camp too, and I find myself to be in the same situation that you are constantly.
The thing to do is to not think that your wife is just nuts for thinking the way she does; there might be a very rational reason for why she’s feeling like this. (Perhaps she was deceived by someone close to her in the past, and that’s what’s leading to all these feelings of paranoia and fear.)
The best way to deal with it is to take the middle ground—tell your wife that you understand what she’s saying, and she might be right, but she could also be wrong. If she still persists, then smile and say nothing. It won’t help.
posted by hadjiboy at 10:16 PM on January 29, 2007

Also, it could be the other way round too, which has also happened to me as well. You could be the one who’s wrong to assume the good in people who don’t deserve to be, and your wife could be right in being circumspect of them.
posted by hadjiboy at 10:18 PM on January 29, 2007

Sounds like me, except I've come to realize I'm doing it so I don't get defensive anymore when my SO calls me out on it.

For me it's from severe trust issues. I had a relatively friendless childhood (in the sense that the people I took as friends habitually betrayed me for the first 18 years of my life - I know, slow learner), and eventually found myself just expecting that the people in my life would eventually stab me in the back. Once that attitude takes root it's REALLY hard to shake. I even found it overflowing into my relationship with my wife, for no valid reason. Still today my first reaction when reading an ambiguous (or sometimes even completely innocuous) social situation is to expect the worst possible outcome from people, and I've found more often than not that my attitude ends up causing the worst to happen.

Has this affected her / your other relationships? Does she tend to change friends every year or so?

It sounds like she's truly oblivious to the fact that she has a persecution complex. That can be really difficult to overcome. Unfortunately I have no good advice on how to broach that subject without putting her on the defensive. For myself, I just had a revelation while drinking one night.

If this is somewhat on target hopefully my experience sheds some light on what she might be feeling...

On preview: You can't change other people. If you really want to be happy with your wife, you're better off accepting her for who she is.

You can't change people, but you can help them change. If it is affecting relationships, it's worth trying to bring to her attention. In my case I didn't realize I was being so negative, but once I recognized it, I sure as hell wanted to get rid of it.
posted by chundo at 10:25 PM on January 29, 2007

You can nudge people towards change -- if they are open to change. Is she open to you pointing out anything? Clearly not the way you're doing it. My love and I have had some issues like this where we think the other one is thinking wrong or has a bad attitude. I handle it by remaining very loving but pointing out black and white thinking or snap judgments or other terms we are both familiar with, that have meaning to both of us. Clearly you and she don't agree on concepts of thinking the worst of someone or being unfair, so those terms aren't useful *unless* you are asking her to hear your point of view, which is totally valid, and powerful. I think you'd best listen to her first, though, painful though it may be. Then you deserve a fair hearing.

However, neither of you is right. It's just a matter of whether you use your differences to know each other better and get closer or just nod and smile as others suggested. I do that to strangers, not someone I am close to. I think that makes sense. A suggestion in this process is one my love taught me: maintain good face to face eye contact while dealing with this. Don't just accept this behaviour of hers, because clearly it's important to you and it will irk you, I think you will find if you experiment with letting it slide, though that is also a good experiment.
posted by Listener at 10:33 PM on January 29, 2007

If I had to pick between "bitches alot about people she knows" or "unable to listen to someone vent about people without insisting that they be fair" as to which behavior was more likely to start fights, I'd have to pick the things that you are doing as the cause of the arguments.
posted by 23skidoo at 10:45 PM on January 29, 2007

What chundo said.

But it depends :)
on whether this is an "annoying trait", and you can ignore it, as you put it. If so, then yeah, smile and nod. My marriage lasted 20 years- until my ex's neck gave out.

If she in in a professional environment where back-stabbing is encouraged it would be understandable, hence no persecutory complex.

Define "major arguement". How do they end? Does one of you "storm off", do insults fly? Who apologizes, and for what? Have you told her, when she's not in a venting mood, that it bothers you to hear so much "negativity" because you want her to be happy?
posted by bkiddo at 11:08 PM on January 29, 2007

Reiterating what most have said. Nod and murmur sympathetically at appropriate moments, and surf the net while she is venting. She's not really looking for advice, just catharsis. At a more relaxed and appropriate time you can broach the subject of looking at things and other people in a more positive light. She probably really doesn't mean all that, and is just relieving frustration.

On the other hand, if all the negativity is getting you down, or if she gives you any grief over the fact that you are not really listening, you might try to steer her towards someone who is more comfortable with and derives more satisfaction from mutual commiseration without active problem-solving (i.e. her girlfriends).
posted by Manjusri at 11:11 PM on January 29, 2007

consider that if you think she is being overly pessimistic, it may be just as likely that you are being overly optimistic, or maybe that both of these things are happening at the same time (ie the truth is somewhere in the middle).

even if you don't think that that is true, consider acting like you believe it. talking to someone you disagree with from the perspective that you are objectively right/for some reason able to perceive The Truth and they are crazy or incompetent rarely leads to good things, in my experience. maybe saying "really? they seemed nice to me" and then agreeing to disagree would work out.
posted by lgyre at 11:16 PM on January 29, 2007

You mention that she feels unsupported. This is an entirely different issue than her cynicism. She needs to know that in the general case, if she is being attacked, you are on her side. It is possible to let her know that you do not believe she is seeing things in the right light but still reassure her that she is supported. This is very important in letting her know that she can rely on you. Feeling unsupported and chastised is a lot to swallow, I strongly suspect that if you said "If Uncle Bob ever talked shit about you I would put him in his place so fast..." it would go a long way towards helping resolve the issues.

In fact, if she knew that you will always stand up for her if necessary, she may dramatically cut down on these arguments because she no longer needs to prove to you that everyone is out to get her.

I saw this with my parents, my mother's in-laws were constantly giving backhanded compliments and making snide remarks followed by fake apologies ("I'm sorry you feel that way..") to my mom and my dad was completely oblivious. All Mom really wanted was acknowledgement that Dad wasn't going to stand for anyone, even family, mistreating her. Having that emotional ally was such a huge deal to her and it allowed her to handle things without feeling cast to the wolves, as it were.
posted by hindmost at 12:03 AM on January 30, 2007

I know this might sound funny, but for the sake of experiment, try being judgmental in your assessment of others and see how your wife reacts.

I say this because my boyfriend can be quite negative, whereas I am optimistic by habit, but I have noticed that if I have an "off" day, where I speak negatively about things/people, my boyfriend will naturally turn around and start spouting positive things. Which is out of character!

Often in a relationship, there is some kind of creepy balance. In the past, I have had relationships with very positive people, which I feel made me act in more of a depressive role. But since my boyfriend has dysthymia, I am "the positive one".

It would just be interesting to see if your wife joined in when you started saying bad things about people, or if she became the yin to your yang! Give her the opportunity to be the positive one...
posted by mjao at 12:17 AM on January 30, 2007

My best friend since pre-school is like this. I've know her for 36 years.
While I love her, I acknowledge that this is a huge drain on her marraige, and I honestly don't know how her husband lives with her. I think it is useful to read the gender communication discrepancies book from Tanner mentioned above and not try to solve her problem. My friend had a childhood similar to Chundo's, and as I experienced a lot of it as her friend I have the utmost sympathy for her. In fact I don't know how she continues to function in society with the childhood she had. From this perspective, I think anything I have with her is a bonus, and often her cynicism can stop me doing something stupid as I am incredibly trusting.
However, as the years go by (we're both 41) it has gotten worse, she now has a much reduced set of friends, her attitude has reduced her husband's set of friends, she's acting like a crabby old person. Her interests are incredibly restricted and she will only do many things if her husband or a friend come with her. It is evidence of low self-esteem, no question of that, but left unchecked and without therapy, the future is quite bleak.
I know her marraige has been under threat for many years, and it is heart-breaking to see these two people who clearly love each other in this situation. Her husband sometimes now has to "lay down the law" which is not like him at all. He says "If X doesn't change soon, we're not going to make it..." then she is terrified her only supports will leave her so she'll do something she is not comfortable with causing resentment.
Please don't go down this route.
e-mails in the profile if you need to talk
posted by Wilder at 1:56 AM on January 30, 2007

When she starts talking about someone this way, I usually try to point out that she should give them the benefit of the doubt

You know, it used to be taught that if someone is speaking to you, and you contradict them directly to their face, you were being extremely rude. If this occurred in a conversation between two gentlemen, the result was often a duel to the death with pistols.

That's right. If you withheld due respect to the point of directly contradicting someone, you could be SHOT DEAD for your pains. That's how egregious this type of behavior was felt to be.

Why not give your spouse the benefit of the doubt for a change, instead of defending some distant party? Really try to understand where she's coming from - let her have her say - rather than cutting her off and instructing her that her opinions and feelings are completely false.

Even if you end up not being able to understand her position, at least she may perceive that you have allowed her to express herself. Sometimes that's all a person needs.

and that they can't possibly be that bad a person

You sure about that? I know plenty of terrible people.
posted by ikkyu2 at 2:43 AM on January 30, 2007 [2 favorites]

Ask her if she can think of a time when she was mistaken in judging someone. Perhaps it would be helpful for her to adopt the position that it really doesn't matter if people have bad intentions towards her or not, as she is strong enough that they cannot really harm her. It is better for her to continually assume they have good intentions, unless they actually do something deliberately harmful.
posted by London Irregular at 4:44 AM on January 30, 2007

In a husband-wife relationship, sometimes the social filters come off and you get a stream-of-consciousness rant. You're basically listening to the other person's interior monologue. These are usually not pretty and can be debilitating to listen to.

In relationships that are more superficial, we keep our social filters on and our inner voices inside. Perhaps a gentle chat about keeping some filters on in your relationship?
posted by TorontoSandy at 4:59 AM on January 30, 2007

I read an article in the NYT recently about a woman who fixed a bunch of traits in her man like this. She used animal training skills to do it. If you want to stub out a behavior in someone, you ignore them when they're practising that behavior, and then reward them generously when they're doing what you want. This works on animals, including humans it seems.
posted by wackybrit at 5:57 AM on January 30, 2007

Why not give your spouse the benefit of the doubt for a change, instead of defending some distant party?

Seriously. Who is more important, these random people, or your wife? Of course she feels like you think she's a bad person- read your question again. It can be read as, My wife is such a mean person, how do I fix her? I would certainly feel that way if you talked to me like that. How would you like it if she tried to change your mind anytime you said something, with an underlying value judgement that what you said/thought was wrong/bad? Learn to listen; use phrases like, "I'm so sorry", "Why do you think that?", "Tell me more!".

In fact, if she knew that you will always stand up for her if necessary, she may dramatically cut down on these arguments because she no longer needs to prove to you that everyone is out to get her.

I think this is true. Also maybe try to open your mind to the possibility that everyone (or at least the general social atmosphere she's in) IS out to get her. Been there, done that, and knowing that a lot of my "friends" thought I was crazy hurt worse than anything.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:19 AM on January 30, 2007 [1 favorite]

Nod and murmur sympathetically at appropriate moments, and surf the net while she is venting.

I can't believe this! A man attempts to approach a problem in his marriage proactively with utmost understanding, and everyone tells him to do that very thing which drives most women crazy: smile an nod.

I guarantee you there is no beter way for your wife to feel like you're not really hearing her, that you don't care what's happening to her. I'd say it's better to fight about things if it means you are honest with each other-- your arguments have exposed an issue that can be worked on, whereas smiling and nodding encourages no change, no growth, no deeper understanding of each other.

Besides, women can tell when guys are doing this, and they hate it. It confirms everything they suspect about the way men handle emotional problems. You're more highly evolved than this, so make sure you act like it, no matter what advice you take.
posted by hermitosis at 7:21 AM on January 30, 2007

So many good points above - I'll try not to repeat.

If *she* were to write an AskMe, what do you think it would say? It might say something like, "My husband is absolutely wonderful, but I feel like he automatically disrespects my judgments of people and my opinions, and then he feels the need to impose his views on me, and I hate the arguments." Maybe it wouldn't say that at all - you know better than me, but I suggest that you think a little bit about how she would frame the issue.

This isn't a "problem" for *her* to get over -- it's an issue that needs to be resolved in your relationship. Your reaction to it is part of the problem. Neither one of you is completely right or completely wrong, and you are both entitled to different opinions and different views on the nature of people.

Try letting it slide and just deciding not to argue about it. She might relax a little if she doesn't have to go into auto-defense mode -- she might come out with stronger initial opinions because she feels like she will end up having to defend them.
posted by KAS at 7:27 AM on January 30, 2007

Am I your wife? No, no I'm not, because I'm not married. But I understand her position entirely, you could be describing me up there.

I agree with a lot of the advice in this thread - it's all about trust and the ability to communicate and see things from each others' perspective. I'm going to add some anecdotal stuff because I've been through this before, forgive me for the length.

I had this same problem with an ex of mine. He and I looked at the world completely differently - he was a "people optimist" and thought that every person we met, hung out with, who said hello to him, etc., was his best friend. Until they did something to prove otherwise - he thought everyone was a pal. As someone who is much more cynical about the innate goodness of human beings, I'd sit back and watch someone walk all over him and he wouldn't see it coming - amd worse, forgive them afterwords!

For me, being a cynical person, I thought that it was patently obvious that Friend A only ever called when he wanted my ex to take him out for dinner (and foot the bill for the food and drinks) and was just using him as a meal ticket. But I'd say so to my ex, and lord have mercy, I was the least-trusting meanest person in the universe. Friend A was an old buddy of his and wasn't just calling for a meal, but for company - it wasn't Friend A's fault that my ex made more money and insisted on paying all the time. And he never called him or talked to him because Friend A was so busy with work and school.

I will freely admit that I was proven wrong an equal amount of time as I was proven right. Sometimes I'd realize that some acquaintance of ours I hated actually was a good friend and not a total scumbag, and I had just been conflating my personal dislike of that person into a "they are bad because I say so" situation.

Of course Wifey feels unsupported. You're questioning her ability to judge character - just as she is questioning yours. When you disagree, you should ask her why she assumes the worst and doesn't trust that particular individual. If her reasons are along the lines of "he's irritating" or "she's snotty," then it's most likely personal and not something you can fix. Don't smile and nod and condescend, just tell her that you understand that she doesn't like the person, but that just like you don't like olives on your pizza and she does, you two don't have to like the same things or the same people.

If she can come up with reasonable or concrete reasons not to trust someone, ie "he borrowed money and never payed it back," "she talks about people behind their backs," then maybe you might want to listen. If she's jealous of your friendships with people she doesn't like, that's one thing. But you have to take into account that she may see qualities in people that you have a blindspot for.

I don't think, however, that it's a "gender" issue, but rather a "two people not seeing eye-to-eye" issue. I say this because I've had this same problem with my sister, who is a "people optimist." Mars vs. Venus is simplifying a bit much.

If you withheld due respect to the point of directly contradicting someone, you could be SHOT DEAD for your pains.

Ikky is the man.
posted by SassHat at 8:29 AM on January 30, 2007

You could always use parody. Join with her in condemning them. Criticize! Complain! Plot their destruction! If done well and with a sense of humor, it can illustrate how destructive it is. Might not work in your case... a lot depends on how well you can be funny.

Some good reads (specific to getting better at communications) :

The Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense - basically a book on how to disengage or more appropriately, not engage in the first place.

Difficult Conversations - how to bring up and explore topics that aren't easy to bring up and explore! A good read.

You Just Don't Understand (Tannen) - male/female communications are cross cultural. You may be misinterpreting your spouse and her communication style.


How to Win Friends and Influence People (Carnegie) - lots of mefi's will agree with this, and a few morons will diss it because it wasn't written in 2006, but it has some decent suggestions for dealing with problem folks.

Good luck. We've all had similar folks in our lives, I'd wager.
posted by FauxScot at 8:49 AM on January 30, 2007

I can be fairly cynical about people. To me, if my spouse did what you do, it owuld be tantamount to him saying, "you are not entitled to your own opinion. I make the judgements, and I say everyone is good until proven otherwise."

And that would piss me off.

Regardless of whether she is right or wrong about these people, think about the message you are sending her.
posted by miss tea at 9:07 AM on January 30, 2007

My wife and I have the same kind of difference in personality, and we haven't had this argument in a really long time. I've learned to trust that if she's venting unreasonably, she knows in her heart that she's not being fair to the other party and there's no need for me to step in and defend them. She's learned to trust that I'll always be on her side and that I'm not going to make her feel like a bad person for needing to let off steam.

Also, the more supported she feels, the less she will feel the need to vent.
posted by teleskiving at 9:27 AM on January 30, 2007

You know, it used to be taught that if someone is speaking to you, and you contradict them directly to their face, you were being extremely rude. If this occurred in a conversation between two gentlemen, the result was often a duel to the death with pistols.

Yeah, and if a woman spoke up in the conversation at all she was considered out of place. And if she kept speaking up intelligently and often, she was committed to an asylum so as to not tire out her feminine brain.

Sometimes customs change for very good reasons.

As for the OP -- negative reinforcement is not going to do it. I'd suggest buying a copy of Don't Shoot The Dog and taking its lessons to heart.
posted by tkolar at 10:17 AM on January 30, 2007

This is dumb. Really dumb:

You know, it used to be taught that if someone is speaking to you, and you contradict them directly to their face, you were being extremely rude. If this occurred in a conversation between two gentlemen, the result was often a duel to the death with pistols.

That's right. If you withheld due respect to the point of directly contradicting someone, you could be SHOT DEAD for your pains. That's how egregious this type of behavior was felt to be.
posted by jayder at 10:39 AM on January 30, 2007

This is dumb. Really dumb:

Do you give me the lie direct, sir? I say, you are no judge, your opinion is worthless.
posted by ikkyu2 at 11:32 AM on January 30, 2007 [1 favorite]

I think you're misreading/misapplying history. I don't think this principle applies to spouses disagreeing with each other, which has been going on since ancient times.
posted by jayder at 11:57 AM on January 30, 2007

jayder, I think you're missing the point. No one is advocating that the wife shoot the husband. The poster has seemed to place all the blame for the arguments on the wife being negative, rather than understand that directly contradicting someone to their face is a really really rude thing to do -- rude enough that in the past, people would shoot at each other for similar offenses -- and so the poster might want to examine how his actions are contributing to the arguments, and how they may be viewed by his wife. It's an analogy, not a recommended course of action.
posted by occhiblu at 12:26 PM on January 30, 2007

"Besides, women can tell when guys are doing this, and they hate it."

In my experience, it is men who are bothered by someone absentmindedly humoring them when they are venting, while women tend to prefer it. Of course, there are exceptions, but if you read the OP's description closely, she's not looking for "change, growth, or deeper understanding". At that particular moment, she's venting stress. Trying to fix things by telling her she is seeing things wrong is the opposite of what she is looking for, so plan b is a heated argument. Which works, but can be detrimental to the relationship.

OK, If you really want to pay close attention to what she is saying, experience her frustrations empathetically, and refrain from offering any advice how to fix it, then you are one highly evolved sensitive male specimen, a therapist, or a woman in disguise. Us lower paleolithic types get all worked up at the problem, and want to set about fixing it. Which is worse than just giving her one ear and some sympathy while you go about your business. If she wants more than that and it winds up leaving you frustrated and feeling like a sponge for her frustration her girlfriends will more than likely actually enjoy and feel emotionally fulfilled by the process.

I am all for unadulterated frank honesty in a relationship, and life in general. But you have to choose your moments. This isn't one of them.
posted by Manjusri at 2:00 PM on January 30, 2007 [1 favorite]

Depends on the woman. My wife tends to do this, freak out and assume the worst when something goes wrong, but I can talk her down from it, remind her of her tendency to do this and lay out the logical alternatives (misunderstanding, accident, etc.), and she'll listen to me. But she's also possessed of enough self-knowledge to see this tendency in herself, and she's also the sort that you can talk to when she's pissed and have at least a 50-50 chance of getting through to her. Not to mention that she knows that I'm not the critical sort and never say anything remotely negative unless it's intended to be constructive.

Obviously your SO doesn't fit that description, which is why I'd like to reiterate my advice to talk to her about it when you're not in the heat of the moment. Yes, you should validate her feelings. Yes, you should be tactful. No, you shouldn't contradict her directly.

But obviously this behavior is a problem for you, and therefore a problem for your relationship, and so it needs to be confronted and discussed. I've only been married a few years, but it took no time at all for me to discover that the only way our relationship will stick with us to the grave is if we're honest and work on what's bugging us, no matter how insignificant. This is clearly enough of a problem for you to go seeking advice, so leaving it unaddressed in your relationship will only make it fester until it's finally too much.
posted by middleclasstool at 6:42 PM on January 30, 2007

Many good comments I agree with here, having learned from bitter experience that anonymous's style can be a contributing factor to the breakup of the relationship.

For you, it is a problem to listen to negative commentary, especially from your wife, whom you dearly want to admire.

For your wife, it is infuriating to express an opinion and feel that it isn't validated.

There is a middle way: you can listen to the emotional truth behind what she is saying. She is communicating something about another person, and it happens to express her feelings at that moment. So you can paraphrase what she is saying, to verify that you are hearing what she is saying, and then echo the emotion that it provokes in her. You don't have to insult her, but summarizing what she is saying plainly, and then talking about her emotional state, may calm her down a bit. She will is expressing these negative feelings out of insecurity, and when she feels comforted by your attention, she will become strong enough to come to a more positive view on her own.

In short, don't listen to the words with your head. Let your heart listen to what her heart is saying. Her heart will feel your heart beating in time with hers. She needs to feel that.
posted by Araucaria at 8:30 PM on January 30, 2007

Maybe I misheard ikkyu2's tone, but it seemed to me that ikkyu2 was going way overboard in characterizing a disagreement between spouses as a grave offense to one spouse's dignity. That's just silly; and the capitalized letters in ikkyu2's post, apparently put there in all seriousness, just made it sillier.

I think what the poster is getting at should not be lightly dismissed: it's hard to be around someone who is relentlessly, and unfairly, negative about other people. All this talk of "be open to her feelings ... be supportive!" is nonsense.
posted by jayder at 8:52 PM on January 30, 2007

This thread continues to hold my interest.

In particular, several people have chimed in to explain exactly what the OP's wife needs and wants. The OP's wife isn't speaking in order that her thoughts and ideas be heard; rather, she's just "venting stress."

These folks are basing their opinions on the description of a fellow who:

• Finds his wife "annoying"
• Points out her behavior as a "shortcoming"
• In, apparently, all seriousness, describes his two options as "deteriorate [into] a big argument" versus "just ignore what she's saying, listen and nod my head."

If that's all that there is in the universe of possibility - argue or ignore - when anonymous' beloved wife dares to say something with which he disagrees, how seriously then are we going to take his perspective on his wife's motivations? Gospel writ? Or perhaps a slightly lesser valuation, one essayed with tongue perhaps firmly in cheek?

For the fellow - yes, I mean you, jayder - who asserts that good manners do not apply in marriages - good luck to you, sir.
posted by ikkyu2 at 9:01 PM on January 30, 2007

Finds his wife "annoying"

Let's quote a bit more accurately:

My wife has this annoying trait

Your wife never annoys you? You never annoy her? You must both be Jesus.

Points out her behavior as a "shortcoming"

I'd normally not characterize automatically assuming the worst about people a virtue. My wife has shortcomings. So do I. So does everyone currently in possession of a birth certificate.

In, apparently, all seriousness, describes his two options as "deteriorate [into] a big argument" versus "just ignore what she's saying, listen and nod my head."

...and is coming here for advice on any other ways to approach this. What a bastard.

I'm not saying she's the bad guy here. I'm saying there's 207 words in this post, and characterizing him as the bad guy based on a mere 207 words may just be a wee bit unfair.
posted by middleclasstool at 9:36 PM on January 30, 2007

I agree that nothing good wil come of contradicting her when she's already upset. When she's relaxed is probably a much better time to bring up the possibility of alternative explanations for so-and-so's behaviour: "I've been thinking...is there any chance that...?" (Solicits her opinion and leaves room for either exploring positives, or for you to let it go if she absolutely won't hear of it. Versus "That person can't possibly be as bad as that" - dictatorial, sounds like an attempt to shut her down, and invalidating, as others have emphasized.

Also, you don't have to critique all the time OR smile-and-nod all the time. Pick your battles (and prioritize the people for whom you choose to offer alternative views). Eg, suggest your alternative viewpoint twice a month, for example, and let all the other, less important cases go. Is your wife doing ordinary talking-through of daily stress, or are there deeper issues? I live with someone whose father trained him to think the world was out to get him and that every negative interaction was a personal attack. It took six months of therapy for him to recognize the connection, and another year and a half before he was able to start catching himself. If I'd smiled-and-nodded all the time, I'd have drowned in his paranoia, and he'd still be gnashing his teeth 24 hours a day. Talking out stresses, though, to me that's not worth the hurt and grief of big arguments. Seems to me that's healthy.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 9:39 PM on January 30, 2007

characterizing him as the bad guy based on a mere 207 words may just be a wee bit unfair

He's the one we're talking to. He can't change her behavior; he can only change his own. Asking him to look at how he's contributing to the situation, and asking if he can change that contribution to create a situation he likes better, is not blaming him for anything. It's assuming that he's an emotionally mature adult who might be more interested in solving the problem than assigning blame, and it's probably the only way that we can help, given we're only talking to one half of the couple. And it's certainly the best way he can help change the situation.
posted by occhiblu at 9:47 PM on January 30, 2007

Your wife might just need to rant a bit. She may not even be as critical as you think; she may just need to blow off steam about the most annoying things she deals with during her day. Try listening, paying attention, and empathising with her frustration. You don't have to agree that "X is an abusive jerk" if you don't think that, but you could say "Wow, X really got you riled today."

You might also think about how you and your wife process. I'm an extrovert; I need to rant a bit about things that get under my skin and I need to discuss things to get to a decision. My ex- is an introvert. He' doesn't really talk about things. It can cause serious misunderstandings.
posted by theora55 at 11:23 AM on January 31, 2007

ikkyu2, you said this:

For the fellow - yes, I mean you, jayder - who asserts that good manners do not apply in marriages - good luck to you, sir.

I challenge you to show me where I said good manners do not apply in marriage. (Thank god I live in the present day; I might be SHOT DEAD for asking you this in earlier times, right?)

All I said in my earlier questions was, in essence, that spouses should feel free to disagree with each other, and using the rules of dueling between ninetenth-century gentleman to instruct a Metafilter poster on good conduct within a marriage is, to put it bluntly, fucking absurd.

I had a professor once who said something I thought was very wise. He said, "If you ever see a married couple who does not argue on a regular basis, it's not a good marriage, and one of them is getting walked all over by the other."

We should read the poster's question charitably, and extend him the most generous assumption of his good-faith. Don't leap to the conclusion that he is contributing to the problem ... nothing in the question suggests that. In fact, he's made it clear that he is an optimist, and tends to give people the benefit of the doubt. Given all that, don't you think he gave his wife the benefit of the doubt, and is not leaping to some ill-founded conclusion about her pettiness and pessimism about other people? He came here for help, and was met with a bunch of harpies who are regarding him just like his wife regards other people!
posted by jayder at 6:45 PM on January 31, 2007

OK. So.... what should the poster do? It's all very well to post comment after comment disagreeing with those of us who are trying to give him tools and new perspectives for looking at the situation; you might find that if you actually concentrate on helping him fix his situation, rather than simply assigning blame onto the wife, that you, too, might have to look at how he can change his behavior in order to get what he wants.

Unless we are all just supposed to focus mind rays on the guy's wife, and somehow force her to change that way.

This is pretty much the #1 principle of giving advice. You can only advise the person you're talking to. Anyone in the situation who is not currently listening to you (or reading your comments) is not going to benefit from being told how to change. So it's completely useless to use this forum to talk about how the wife's behavior should change.
posted by occhiblu at 7:24 PM on January 31, 2007

jayder: You're right. You've correctly divined that I don't think the wife should SHOOT DEAD our poster, especially not right now when he's really trying to figure out what's going on.

I bring up the lesson of history because it is a good lesson and an interesting one, I think. It surprised me to learn, relatively late in life, that contradicting someone to their face was felt by well-mannered people to be possibly the gravest insult to one's dignity imaginable; an insult that would justify a duel to the death.

Because it's no longer fashionable to duel, some folks have come under the mistaken impression that it must now be fashionable to give the lie direct, as often and as rudely as possible. The original poster is not the only one; I work with many of these people, was schooled with many others. I myself am guilty of it on a number of occasions. This isn't an error of commission, I like to think; maybe no one ever told us differently. But what's the result of this behavior? Let's let the original poster tell us what happens when he gives his wife the lie:

From here things usually deteriorate and we end up in a big argument. In the end she feels unsupported and accused of being a bad person.

Yep, that's pretty much how it always ends. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" - that's another oldie.

There are lots of ways to argue or disagree with someone without hurting feelings. I linked to a couple above: "Excuse me, sir, but I find that I prefer it otherwise" is a particularly genteel one. I find that I can spare myself much misery in life, and in my relationship, by trying hard not to offend the dignity of my interlocutors. And that's why I recommend the practice to others.
posted by ikkyu2 at 12:06 AM on February 1, 2007

My last relationship ended in large part because my ex was like the wife. I tried to defend people because his venting (which was really raging more than venting) was poisoning me. If I let him keep ranting he worked himself up into a huge tizzy, but if I tried to stop him, I was the one with the problem dealing with anger. I tried to get him into therapy, but to no avail.

Looking back on it, I realize that one thing would have helped: being better about setting boundaries. Allow venting time, but setting a limit on how vitriolic it could get, and walking away when it got bad. I don't know how rageful the wife here gets, but some limits might be helpful. For instance, "I don't trust X because of a feeling or incident" and "I don't trust X because no one can be trusted. The world sucks." are very different. For me, I think I could handle the first one all right, but constantly hearing the second one was too much for me.
posted by someone else at 2:59 PM on February 1, 2007