What country has the oldest unchanged borders, and how old are they?
January 29, 2007 8:03 AM Subscribe
What country has the oldest unchanged borders, and how old are they?
Last night my girlfriend turned to me and popped the question. No, unfortunately not that question, but this question. Help me establish my manly knowledge of history!
For the purposes of this question, I'm considering "unchanged" to be quite strict. I would say, for instance, that Portugal's borders changed in 1999, when they gave Macau back to China and that Norway's borders changed in 1940 when they were invaded by Germany. The establishment of the French Fifth Republic in 1958, on the other hand, was an internal change that left France's borders unchanged.
The best guess we have is (unsurprisingly) Switzerland, which was granted territory by the Congress of Vienna in 1815. But we don't know enough about Asian or Latin American history to know if countries there might qualify. As well, Liechtenstein, Andora, or San Marino might qualify, but we can't nail down their history well enough to be sure when their last territorial change was.
This is a tricky question, especially as the definition of "unchanged" is pretty fuzzy. But any help would be greatly appreciated!
Last night my girlfriend turned to me and popped the question. No, unfortunately not that question, but this question. Help me establish my manly knowledge of history!
For the purposes of this question, I'm considering "unchanged" to be quite strict. I would say, for instance, that Portugal's borders changed in 1999, when they gave Macau back to China and that Norway's borders changed in 1940 when they were invaded by Germany. The establishment of the French Fifth Republic in 1958, on the other hand, was an internal change that left France's borders unchanged.
The best guess we have is (unsurprisingly) Switzerland, which was granted territory by the Congress of Vienna in 1815. But we don't know enough about Asian or Latin American history to know if countries there might qualify. As well, Liechtenstein, Andora, or San Marino might qualify, but we can't nail down their history well enough to be sure when their last territorial change was.
This is a tricky question, especially as the definition of "unchanged" is pretty fuzzy. But any help would be greatly appreciated!
Are you counting changes due to improvments in surveying accuracy? If so, then Liechtenstein's out.
posted by nicwolff at 8:14 AM on January 29, 2007
posted by nicwolff at 8:14 AM on January 29, 2007
Andorra exists because of a 13th century dispute between the feudal Bishop of the Seu of Urgell - just over the border in Spain - and the Count of Foix in France. Instead of continuing to fight each other over Andorra, they agreed to share it. In 1288 the final agreement was signed between them and Andorra has not changed its borders since then.
posted by zeoslap at 8:16 AM on January 29, 2007
posted by zeoslap at 8:16 AM on January 29, 2007
And are you counting legally-defined borders over water? If not, are you counting shifting shorelines? If not, isn't your winner pretty likely to be whichever island nation is oldest?
posted by nicwolff at 8:18 AM on January 29, 2007
posted by nicwolff at 8:18 AM on January 29, 2007
Yeah, I was going to say Iceland. If you're not counting islands, make that explicit. (Interesting question!)
posted by languagehat at 8:21 AM on January 29, 2007
posted by languagehat at 8:21 AM on January 29, 2007
Actually, Andorra sounds pretty good! I guess island countries change hands and pass in and out of independence too often.
posted by nicwolff at 8:22 AM on January 29, 2007
posted by nicwolff at 8:22 AM on January 29, 2007
What about Iceland or Bhutan?
posted by thewittyname at 8:24 AM on January 29, 2007
posted by thewittyname at 8:24 AM on January 29, 2007
re: Iceland -- it depends on the poster's strict definition of nations and borders. For most of its existence, until 1874 Iceland was a province and colony of Denmark.
Bhutan lost part of its territory in 1865, after the Duar War.
But, yeah, the tricky thing here is to essentially identify a country that has not engaged in or been engaged by a war of conquest since the establishment of Switzerland -- which rules out most of South America (whose countries were mostly colonies at the time, and/or newly independent with borders still in flux), Africa (ditto)
In Asia, the nations that avoided colonization -- Thailand, China, Japan have all done some invading and conquering in the 20th century. So, I think it has to go back to Europe, and essentially who either escaped the broad national eraser of Napoleon's conquest or managed to hold on to their borders after the early wars of the 19th century.
posted by bl1nk at 8:39 AM on January 29, 2007
Bhutan lost part of its territory in 1865, after the Duar War.
But, yeah, the tricky thing here is to essentially identify a country that has not engaged in or been engaged by a war of conquest since the establishment of Switzerland -- which rules out most of South America (whose countries were mostly colonies at the time, and/or newly independent with borders still in flux), Africa (ditto)
In Asia, the nations that avoided colonization -- Thailand, China, Japan have all done some invading and conquering in the 20th century. So, I think it has to go back to Europe, and essentially who either escaped the broad national eraser of Napoleon's conquest or managed to hold on to their borders after the early wars of the 19th century.
posted by bl1nk at 8:39 AM on January 29, 2007
Best answer: San Marino - founded in 301. As far as I can tell it last changed its borders in 1463.
posted by caddis at 8:45 AM on January 29, 2007
posted by caddis at 8:45 AM on January 29, 2007
Response by poster: Thanks for all the responses!
nicwolff -- Very interesting, that definitely rules out Liechtenstein. Island nations are fine by me. I would not count changes to the definition of international waters as a "change" (I know territorial waters have been expanded since WWII) but I would count a treaty between two nations that changes their boundary over water. I would not count shifting shorelines as a change. An island nation is a really good idea, but the only ones I can think of were colonized or conquered (most of them in WWII by Japan).
zeoslap -- Some more poking around on Wikipedia since I posted the question indicates that Andorra was occupied by France from 1933 to 1940. I'd mark that as the last change.
bl1nk -- Very interesting, I figured Iceland was a good canidate too.
caddis -- Ah, excellent! 1463 sounds hard to beat.
posted by Maastrictian at 8:59 AM on January 29, 2007
nicwolff -- Very interesting, that definitely rules out Liechtenstein. Island nations are fine by me. I would not count changes to the definition of international waters as a "change" (I know territorial waters have been expanded since WWII) but I would count a treaty between two nations that changes their boundary over water. I would not count shifting shorelines as a change. An island nation is a really good idea, but the only ones I can think of were colonized or conquered (most of them in WWII by Japan).
zeoslap -- Some more poking around on Wikipedia since I posted the question indicates that Andorra was occupied by France from 1933 to 1940. I'd mark that as the last change.
bl1nk -- Very interesting, I figured Iceland was a good canidate too.
caddis -- Ah, excellent! 1463 sounds hard to beat.
posted by Maastrictian at 8:59 AM on January 29, 2007
Response by poster: Reading caddis' link more carefully, it seems that San Marino was occupied in 1739. Its not clear when the occupation ceased, though definatley by 1797. So San Marino is still the oldest unchanged country so far, but much younger than 1463.
posted by Maastrictian at 9:03 AM on January 29, 2007
posted by Maastrictian at 9:03 AM on January 29, 2007
Iceland was a protectorate of both Denmark and Norway:
"Haakon IV of Norway took advantage of these dissensions to make Iceland a Norwegian protectorate in 1262. When the crowns of Denmark and Norway were united in 1380, power passed, in effect, to the Danish throne. Iceland languished under Danish rule, being forced to accept Lutheranism in 1550 by Christian III, and suffering under a ruinous Danish trade monopoly in the 17th and 18th centuries. Iceland remained attached to Denmark after Norway became independent in 1814."
Would that put it out of the running as it's borders were essentially the same as those nasty marauding Danes for a while?
posted by 543DoublePlay at 9:41 AM on January 29, 2007
"Haakon IV of Norway took advantage of these dissensions to make Iceland a Norwegian protectorate in 1262. When the crowns of Denmark and Norway were united in 1380, power passed, in effect, to the Danish throne. Iceland languished under Danish rule, being forced to accept Lutheranism in 1550 by Christian III, and suffering under a ruinous Danish trade monopoly in the 17th and 18th centuries. Iceland remained attached to Denmark after Norway became independent in 1814."
Would that put it out of the running as it's borders were essentially the same as those nasty marauding Danes for a while?
posted by 543DoublePlay at 9:41 AM on January 29, 2007
This is an interesting question and I would have said Portugal off the top of my head, but then I read all of your very strict definition. To be very, very pedantic isn't Iceland ruled out because of the comparatively new island of Surtsey?
posted by ob at 11:14 AM on January 29, 2007
posted by ob at 11:14 AM on January 29, 2007
Maastrictian
Looking even closer, San Marino was occupied by both the Germans and the Allies for very short periods (a couple of weeks the article says) during 1944. I'm not sure if you count these as a change in political status, since although foreign powers were in control of the territory for that short time, I don't think there was a political change (ie, neither Germany nor the Allies claimed to have annexed the land).
posted by Sangermaine at 11:18 AM on January 29, 2007
Looking even closer, San Marino was occupied by both the Germans and the Allies for very short periods (a couple of weeks the article says) during 1944. I'm not sure if you count these as a change in political status, since although foreign powers were in control of the territory for that short time, I don't think there was a political change (ie, neither Germany nor the Allies claimed to have annexed the land).
posted by Sangermaine at 11:18 AM on January 29, 2007
I mean one could argue that Surtsey is in Icelandic territorial waters, but still a new island is a border-change in one sense... Ahh, I see that you're not counting shifting shorelines as a change, so maybe I am being too pendantic.
posted by ob at 11:20 AM on January 29, 2007
posted by ob at 11:20 AM on January 29, 2007
Well looking through things I agree that San Marino is a very good bet.
posted by ob at 11:29 AM on January 29, 2007
posted by ob at 11:29 AM on January 29, 2007
The oldest borders are Portugal's going back to 1297. Or so I've been taught in school. But then again, the portuguese history classes weren't that good. Still attached to a lost past of world domination and dwelling on the great feats of the past :)
posted by claudiadias at 11:49 AM on January 29, 2007
posted by claudiadias at 11:49 AM on January 29, 2007
Does it count if a country opens up a new embassy somewhere (the land the embassies are built on belong to that country, right?)?
posted by porpoise at 12:54 PM on January 29, 2007
posted by porpoise at 12:54 PM on January 29, 2007
the land the embassies are built on belong to that country, right?
not true.
posted by Who_Am_I at 3:24 PM on January 29, 2007
not true.
posted by Who_Am_I at 3:24 PM on January 29, 2007
What about the idiosyncratic ways that countries define what is their territory vs. territory they own or have conquered? While Japan claimed a great number of conquests in the first half of the century, I'm sure they would be very hesitant to say 'this is now part of Japan'.
posted by Space Coyote at 3:38 PM on January 29, 2007
posted by Space Coyote at 3:38 PM on January 29, 2007
Ethiopia's a pretty old country by any definition, but I'm not sure how rock-solid its boundaries are. And what about Egypt?
posted by zadcat at 9:26 PM on January 29, 2007
posted by zadcat at 9:26 PM on January 29, 2007
Ethiopia is indeed an ancient country, but had a significant redrawing of its boundaries after Eritrea seceded in 1993.
The borders of modern-day Egypt were, I believe, drawn up as part of the post-World War I divvying up of the Middle East between England and France*. Egypt also lost and regained the Sinai as part of a series of wars with Israel.
* -- and just as a hint, any country that has a border with a geometrically straight line probably had that border drawn by a European some time in the late 19th or early 20th century. Squiggly borders that follow terrain features are organic and can be ancient -- usually indicative of someone saying, "everything east of this river / mountain range / lake is mine. Everything west is yours." Straight lines are the gestures of imperialists and someone arbitrarily sketching out nations on a big map far removed from the country being defined.
posted by bl1nk at 9:10 AM on January 30, 2007
The borders of modern-day Egypt were, I believe, drawn up as part of the post-World War I divvying up of the Middle East between England and France*. Egypt also lost and regained the Sinai as part of a series of wars with Israel.
* -- and just as a hint, any country that has a border with a geometrically straight line probably had that border drawn by a European some time in the late 19th or early 20th century. Squiggly borders that follow terrain features are organic and can be ancient -- usually indicative of someone saying, "everything east of this river / mountain range / lake is mine. Everything west is yours." Straight lines are the gestures of imperialists and someone arbitrarily sketching out nations on a big map far removed from the country being defined.
posted by bl1nk at 9:10 AM on January 30, 2007
How old is the Vatican?
posted by klangklangston at 7:48 PM on February 5, 2007
posted by klangklangston at 7:48 PM on February 5, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by zeoslap at 8:14 AM on January 29, 2007