How to think about a woman who has delibitating insecurities about dating.

January 21, 2007 5:11 PM

What could I do if a woman I am interested in explains that she considers herself to be "too crazy" to be in a relationship?

I'm a college student and recently went on a date with a woman. We chatted and it was going well (we're friends already for about a semester), and I explained that I was interested in a relationship with her. She told me that she thought I was good looking and that she had a crush on me, but she is worried that she will "let me down." I asked her what that meant and she explained that she didn't really know, that it was just a vague future guarantee that she would feel really guilty about when it happened. She also said that she's crazy and seems to often sabotage her own happiness and avoids possible relationships because of anxiety.

I really like this woman and would like to try to have a romantic relationship with her. We have common interests and I think she's very pretty. I don't want to force her to do anything, but I know that I have a difficult time being "just friends" with women that I like romantically. I also don't want to convince her to be in a reluctant relationship and feel at fault if it doesn't work out.

I'm pretty sure lots of people have been in this kind of situation. What has worked, and what should I try to avoid doing? Is there a mental approach that I can try to apply?

posted by secret.osha to human relations (48 comments total)

Listen to her. Really. She's warning you, and you should listen. Go find a non-crazy woman.
posted by kimdog at 5:16 PM on January 21, 2007

Respect her enough to believe that she is telling you the truth.
posted by winna at 5:18 PM on January 21, 2007

She's telling you what the deal will be if you pursue her - run, don't walk. Seriously. Been there, done that, have the teardrop over my heart to prove it.
posted by dbiedny at 5:19 PM on January 21, 2007

If only it were always this simple. Thank her and walk away. She's crazy.
posted by bondcliff at 5:20 PM on January 21, 2007

I think she is probably letting you down easily. This is sort of a pre-emptive "It's not you, it's me."

I don't want to force her to do anything, but I know that I have a difficult time being "just friends" with women that I like romantically.

I'm not sure what that means (it comes off a little creepy, frankly), but I think you need to accept the fact that it is looking like it is platonic or nothing with this girl. Maybe you should just stay away from her for a semester or two and then try again later.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:21 PM on January 21, 2007

Don't stick your dick in crazy.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:27 PM on January 21, 2007 [11 favorites]

Sadly, you need to accept this. If someone thinks they're too screwed up for a relationship, they are usually right and have had the experiences to prove it. Give her time and space to sort herself out.
posted by Flitcraft at 5:30 PM on January 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

I disagree that you should run away but definately proceed with caution. I'm married to a woman that would definately describe herself as crazy and I wouldn't trade her for the world. Crazy is a very relative term.
posted by Octoparrot at 5:32 PM on January 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

You're right, lots of people have been in your situation. And they've learnt these two things from experience:

a) Don't sleep with crazy people; and
b) When people tell you who they are, listen.

You ignore these rules at your peril. I mean it. Like, for serious.

Anyway, your decision's been made for you, by the sound of things: she's turned you down. If I were you, I'd thank her, be grateful you've dodged a bullet, and learn how to be her friend. She sounds like she needs one.
posted by hot soup girl at 5:37 PM on January 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

She may be letting you down easy.

Or she may just be down on herself from being disappointed by previous relationships. I have a friend who tends to describe herself as crazy for this reason. But previous boyfriends have reinforced this by leaping to unfairly define her as crazy every time they have a fight -- lets them off the hook with her own excuse, right? I point out to her that if she's so freaking crazy, why does she have so many longtime friends that love her even despite the occasional disagreements?

If you really like her, ask her what she thinks is so crazy about herself. Point out that you're a grownup and if you take issue with way she acts, you'll simply tell her so. Honestly, it'll probably be her insecurity, rather than any actual crazy, that keeps you and her from having a relationship.
posted by desuetude at 5:39 PM on January 21, 2007

What everybody but Octoparrot said. Be grateful and take the advice.
posted by languagehat at 5:39 PM on January 21, 2007

Never eat at a restaurant called Moms. Never play cards with a man called Doc. Never sleep with a woman whose problems are worse than your own.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 5:40 PM on January 21, 2007

Look at it this way - she's pretty sure she's not able to emotionally handle a relationship. Even if you may be able to handle her craziness, it sounds like it would really be tough on her. Keep her at arm's length, for her sake.
posted by christinetheslp at 5:45 PM on January 21, 2007

Oh, unless her idea of crazy really sounds crazy. In that case, disregard the warm & fuzzy self-esteem stuff I posted above.
posted by desuetude at 5:45 PM on January 21, 2007

If she wants to be with you, she would have let you know. In fact, she did let you know, but you didn't maybe hear it, because she said it in code.

Let me get out my Magic Decoder Ring here, and run her words through it. As follows:

Her: I am worried that I will 'let you down'.
Magic Decoder Ring: I don't want to be anything other than your friend.

Her: I don't really know, I just have a vague future guarantee that she would feel really guilty about when it happened.
Magic Decoder Ring: I guarantee you're not getting into my shorts.

Her: I'm crazy, I seem to often sabotage my own happiness and I avoid possible relationships because of anxiety.
Magic Decoder Ring: Let me re-iterate - I don't want to be anything other than your friend. My prayer is that you'll never, ever bring this up again, but I don't want to say it straight up, so I'm saying it in code.

I wish I could get you one of these decoder rings, but I wasn't able to get one of my own until later in life. And even my decoder ring won't work on my relationship questions; I have to submit them to my friends to be decoded, and they fill me in, even when I don't want to be filled in.

When a woman wants to date you, you'll know it. I promise.
posted by dancestoblue at 5:50 PM on January 21, 2007 [9 favorites]

boo-urns. i think i know what the answer is now. thanks.
posted by secret.osha at 5:53 PM on January 21, 2007

Listen to her, for the love of God. Walk, do not run, to the nearest exit. She knows herself one hell of a lot better than you do. You are being warned, in language as clear as a bell. Pay attention.
posted by LeisureGuy at 5:59 PM on January 21, 2007

I once knew a woman as well as I knew myself.

She came to me one night on the verge of commitment and confessed to being a liar, a cheat, and a thief. We'd been the best of friends for two years and I would never have categorized her as any of those things. We made love, dedicated ourselves to the other. I'd never been happier.

Within seven weeks, she proved to know herself best.
posted by dobbs at 6:05 PM on January 21, 2007 [5 favorites]

Oh, please. First of all, I don't think the average person is objective or self-aware enough to designate themselves as "crazy". Many people use that word as a substitute for, "I don't understand you" or, "I don't like you"
or, "I don't agree with you" to describe someone they can't deal with. It ain't exactly a clinical diagnosis.

The girl is probably getting a vibe off you that she doesn't find attractive, and, as other here have said, is using a pre-emptive, "it's not you, it's me" defense. If you are unable to encourage her to explain further what her real issue is, either with you or with her current state in life (which may not be permanent), you should move on.

I generally agree with desuetude's take on it. The girl may just be parroting what previous asshats men have told her, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy sort of thing. You are probably not the person she wants to help her work that out.
posted by fuse theorem at 6:07 PM on January 21, 2007

I gathered something different than dancestoblue: rather than an easy letdown, from what you say she said, its quite possible most, if not all, of her previous relationships ended due to her cheating or something to that effect. Just as she has guaranteed she will feel guilty when such an event occurs in the future, she feels guilty right now about what she has done in the past and wishes to avoid further guilt -- wouldn't you avoid feeling like shit (and you thought there was no other way) if you could help it?
posted by fourstar at 6:07 PM on January 21, 2007

Having been the girl who was sabotaging her own relationships for various reasons at a certain stage of my life, please, don't ignore her. If she knows that she does it, she's one up on nearly every other girl you will meet with this problem. It allows you to miss the part where she calls you two years later and says, "Hey, you know, I'm sorry I was such a bitch, but I was really fucked up," as well as missing the part in the middle where you like her, really a lot, and she acts batshitinsane for no discernible reason.
posted by Medieval Maven at 6:09 PM on January 21, 2007

dancestoblue nailed it.

In addition, it sounds like she thrives on drama, enjoys you (and other men) wanting her, and wants to keep leading you on, all the while refusing to accept responsibility for her own actions.
posted by drjimmy11 at 6:44 PM on January 21, 2007

My suggested approach: keep your distance; brace yourself for her inevitably ceasing to be "too crazy for a relationship" as soon as someone she fancies comes along; console yourself that that'll be a train wreck you're better off not being a part of.
posted by Zed_Lopez at 6:51 PM on January 21, 2007

“Lemme tell you something,” he says. He’s got his feet up on the table now, hands laced behind his neck. “It’s the smartest thing my dad ever said to me, just as my high-school girl and me were breaking up before I went away to med school. She was nice enough, but, you know, unstable. I’d gotten to the point where I ducked and ran for cover every time she disagreed with me, ready for her to lose her shit.

“So my dad took me aside, put his arm around me, and said, ’Szandor, you know I like that girlfriend of yours, but she is crazy. Not a little crazy, really crazy. Maybe she won’t be crazy forever, but if she gets better, it won’t be because of you. Trust me, I know this. You can’t fuck a crazy girl sane, son.’”

from Cory Doctorow's Eastern Standard Tribe
posted by heeeraldo at 7:09 PM on January 21, 2007

there's an old writer's adage that I'm beginning to find works really well for dude's pursuing women: show don't tell

show her you want to be in a relationship with her by asking her on another date, trying for a smooch, whatever, but i find that saying "i really like you, will you be my girlfriend" somehow always ruins it (unless you're in 4th grade, then that seems to be how it's done).

If you really like her then take what she said in stride and pursue her with actions, and see how it goes

also, when actually acting, you'll get a better feel for the potential for a relationship...ie saying "I really like you" opens the door for some kind of hard to interpret verbal reply...

asking her on another date (and be sure it's clearly a date since you were friends) makes it pretty clear - she says yes or no and then you know what she thinks
posted by Salvatorparadise at 7:18 PM on January 21, 2007

Let me join the choir. Take her at her word. She is crazy. Run, don't walk. And don't stick your dick in crazy.
posted by mds35 at 7:22 PM on January 21, 2007

Whatever she is - a sissy, histrionic, or whatever - please don't give her the satisfaction of trying to talk her out of it. Just say, "Gee, thanks for being so up front about that!" and take off running.

I really think that when a woman says something like, "Oh, I'm just too crazy for a relationship right now", she's looking for some unknown response in a cruelly manipulative way. Don't give it to her.

She makes the rest of us genuinely crazy women look bad.
posted by forensicphd at 7:22 PM on January 21, 2007

If you really like her and don't think she's really all that crazy, ask her what makes her think she is. Ask her to tell you about a time or two she sabotaged a relationship.

From how she responds to that, you can probably triangulate on whether she really is crazy, or is just looking to let you down easily, or is blowing it out of proportion, or whatever. If she has dated anyone you know, perhaps you can talk to them about it.

Everyone has baggage, though, and it's not unusual (especially when you're young) to assume that that even minor baggage is insurmountable or that it means you're unfit to be in a relationship.
posted by kindall at 7:42 PM on January 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

I was given a preemptive warning nearly exactly like that. But I heeded not. Then one day after a few months, she just stopped talking to me: completely and without any forewarning. At least she could have given me the respect to break it off. Then I realized, Oh wait, you did. Just not according to any normal chronology.

So feel free to date this girl. But realize that she's already broken up with you. It won't last and she'll leave you wondering what the fuck went wrong. If I were you, I'd not get involved. If you can, that is.
posted by yeti at 8:32 PM on January 21, 2007

Move on.

Find someone else.

Find someone who will be as crazy about you as you are about them.

Don't waste your time on people who respond to your overtures with ambiguous signals, people who claim to be crazy, claims that may or may not be bullshit.
posted by jason's_planet at 8:33 PM on January 21, 2007

She's being honest, and what she's saying is "I don't want a relationship with you." Regardless of any other qualities she may or may not possess, this one is really important. In other words, trying to have a relationship with someone who doesn't want to have a relationship with you is pretty well doomed.

Sounds like she's being honest, not trying to let you down easy; and it sounds like this may be one of the rare cases where she likes you well enough to pick you as a boyfriend. But she's thought it out, and she doesn't want a relationship with you.

Go find someone who *does* want a relationship with you. It'll be a better relationship.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:41 PM on January 21, 2007

I said something similar to a girlfriend I ended up spending four years with. I wasn't trying to let her down, I was just flat out scared (hadn't had a serious relationship before, and I knew I have tough quirks to deal with).

I agree with kindall, I think after a little more time with her you can tell whether she 1) is trying to let you down easy, 2) really is insane, or 3) is just insecure about her ability to hold a relationship. 1 and 2 mean you walk away. 3 means that you'd basically be casually dating until she has the confidence to be in a relationship.

The chances of being with her aren't good, and you'll need to be watchful of your own feelings, making sure that you're not getting hurt because you confused 1 or 2 with 3.
posted by FuManchu at 8:45 PM on January 21, 2007 [2 favorites]

Red flag! Red flag!

I ended up pursuing a relationship with a woman who deemed herself "too crazy" at the beginning and had a very similar conversation with me. The relationship was completely unhealthy and dragged out far too long. In the end, the breakup was soul-destroying for all concerned and we're not even on "looking each other in the face" terms let alone on speaking terms.

This is not to say that this woman really was crazy, that's between her and her pyschologist, but that this relationship was not what either one of us needed and we would have been much better off as friends.

I would like to echo you the advice of previous commenters, which is the advice that I wish I had heeded, don't push anyone into a relationship with you if they don't want it. When you find a woman who does, go for it and you will be infinitely happier.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 8:57 PM on January 21, 2007

I agree that she is warning you.

She's trying to scare you off now. If you do not heed the warning, she has just given herself every excuse necessary for treating you as badly as she wants. "But I told you I was crazy and you wanted to date me anyway! I said I sabotage things! You agreed to date me anyway! Which means I can do whatever I damn well please, and you don't get to complain about my behavior ever!"

(I'm a woman, if it matters; I realize this may sound like bitter ex-boyfriend talking. It's not.)
posted by occhiblu at 9:55 PM on January 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Depends on whether you’re ready to take up the challenge, if at all it can be called that—it might sound a little romantic to term it as such since this woman might be troubled and if you’re not looking for a serious relationship, then why should you burden yourself with the extra baggage.
But, but, on the other hand—if you truly do love this woman, and can’t see yourself being without her (I’m not sure if this is the state that your relationship is in), then you might as well stick it out for a little while longer as see what pans out.
Tell her, that you want to see what “too crazy” means, and if you feel like you can handle it, then stay. But if you can’t, and you need to let her down—then please be as gentle as possible. Or if you can stay friends, then that would be even better. I’m not sure hoe useful this advice will be, but I hope things work out for you and her…
posted by hadjiboy at 9:58 PM on January 21, 2007

"Best answer" or no, and no offence to dancetoblue, but a woman doesn't bother to say she has a crush on you if she isn't interested. Lots of people consider themselves emotionally damaged from whatever personal crap they've gone through and may want to be with someone, but not, at the same time.

She's confused, she doesn't know what she wants (dangerous on its own, to you), and the first commenter had it out of the gate: walk away. People know themselves best. When they're insightful and honest enough to warn you, take them seriously.

Note also that warnings like this are like candy to some people; later, you get to hear her tell you that she told you so.
posted by dreamsign at 10:02 PM on January 21, 2007

Crazy often means nasty freak monkey sex. Which actually seems like a decent deal... for a short time. Eventually you realize that nasty freak monkey sex is not even close to a good tradeoff for the crazy.
posted by Justinian at 11:02 PM on January 21, 2007

Crazy people can be heaps of fun when you're young and when you're both aware that it's temporary. Helps if you're crazy too.

If you're looking for mate, run away.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:43 PM on January 21, 2007

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. It ain't a fun ride. In my case, the girl I was dating outright told me "I am bipolar, my family is bipolar, you should know this if you want to date me." I, being innocent, naive, and generally blind, said "okay, I can deal with that." It took me about four months to realize that really, I couldn't.

I spent two years getting myself straight in the head again before I was remotely ready to open myself up to somebody again.

Run, do not walk, to the nearest exit. Be her friend, support her if you can, but getting tangled up with someone who's already tangled up in an internal forest you can't understand will not end well. You can't fix her.
posted by Alterscape at 4:16 AM on January 22, 2007

(As a woman), I think dancestoblue is right. I don't think she's crazy at all, I think she is trying to let you down gently. People lie all the time, especially about this stuff. And she's young. She's trying not to hurt you. She might also be trying to make herself sound mysterious and cool.

When I was 13, a boy asked me out, and I didn't want to tell him I had zero interest in him, so I said I was busy all month. The first day of the next month he called again, and I was flabbergasted, because I thought my "code" was clear. But I also learned a valuable lesson about trying to let someone down gently. I didn't learn it for good - saying 'no' is hard, and rejecting someone is very hard, so I stumbled a few more times - but it was one step to finding the best way to reject someone, without hurting him but also without leading him on.

My hunch is that she *had* a crush on you, or thought you were cute - that's why she went on a date with you. But since that date, things have changed, and now she is sure she doesn't want to date you, so she tells you these things that she thinks won't hurt your feelings but will successfully end your pursuit of her. Btw, just because her feelings changed on the date, doesn't mean you did anything wrong, or suddenly became undesirable. You were probably too nice, or something like that. With a little luck, when she's older, she'll learn to be straightforward about this stuff.

If you're up to it, you might want to consider saying (emailing?) something like this to her: "Okay, I get it. You don't want to date me. I just wish you had told me that directly, so I didn't have to waste time figuring out what you were thinking. I could have handled that. No need to respond to this, or assure me that you really are crazy. If you want to be friends, that's fine - just let me know."
posted by Amizu at 6:27 AM on January 22, 2007

alright, as a minority answer, it's not necessarily what it seems.

i went out with a girl who told me the same thing; i didn't pursue it as a relationship, instead gained her trust enough for her to talk about the things that made her feel crazy (essentially, a troubled past and being unable to get over it). once she was able to share it (turns out it was just a reflex to not have to let anyone in to what she thought was a 'burden' on people), it provided the framework for an open, honest relationship. it worked. we dated for a long while.

ymmv.
posted by dflemingdotorg at 6:54 AM on January 22, 2007 [2 favorites]

When I met my ex-boyfriend in college I told him over and over again that I was no where near ready for another committed relationship and that I wasn't in the right place to be a good girlfriend to him. He pursued me and pursued me and his persistance paid off, but by the time I was ready to settle down with him I had already blown him off a bunch of times, hooked up with his friends, and had generally shown off my bad/destructive/reckless side to him (it was a phase, and it had a lot to do with drugs and partying). He never really got over that, we both ended up heartbroken, and I honestly wish he would have backed off when I asked him to in the first place. A girl who knows she is not ready for a relationship shouldn't be coerced into one.
posted by infinityjinx at 6:59 AM on January 22, 2007

Oh, dear lord. Look, there are plenty of people out there who have emotional issues. Like, all of us. And some have bigger issues than others. But that doesn't mean you can't date them, or that they can't date you. This whole "don't date the crazy" thing is utter madness. She suffers from anxiety? Depression? That sucks, but at least she's aware of it.

She may also be aware that she doesn't feel ready for a relationship right now.

Regardless, she said no. So you don't get to date her. The point isn't that she is/isn't crazy. The point is that she does not want to get involved.

Listen to her, not to a bunch of strangers on AskMe.
posted by brina at 7:06 AM on January 22, 2007 [1 favorite]

brina is completely right.

It's kind of disturbing to me how many people on this thread are basically telling you to ignore what the woman told you. She is an adult, she knows herself better than you do, and she's telling you she doesn't want to date you, no matter what the reason is that she gave you.

It's not okay to hang around trying to 'convince' her of something she has already decided against. That is massively annoying and patronizing. Do you want her to think of you positively or as 'that jerk who couldn't take no for an answer'?

Move on. There are women who will date you. You don't need to keep trying to date one who has said she will not.
posted by winna at 8:06 AM on January 22, 2007

Its intresting that people view this is a "let down easy" excuse not to date. It's a pretty strange one, though, and one that would make people think worse of her. And given the fact that several people in the thread did date girls who gave them this warning shows that it's not that likely to be an excuse.

Rather it is a warning, and one you should seriously consider. She might also be trying to set things up so that she can dispose of the relationship later on, and give herself an excuse for bad behavior.
posted by delmoi at 8:17 AM on January 22, 2007

I think she's very pretty.

Substitute the word ugly for pretty, and then reread the fact pattern. Problem solved!
posted by Ironmouth at 8:24 AM on January 22, 2007

If you envy those people that can reel off fascinating tales of horror about their incredibly messed up and semi-psychotic former mates, then follow through on this. You could have a wild ride and then come out of the whole thing with some awesome stories, plus your first big-time heartbreak. She could also provide you with good material for some country songs: She Said She Was Crazy (Now I Believe Her).

Otherwise, fall back to fortified positions and try for an orderly withdrawal.
posted by Midnight Creeper at 3:39 PM on January 22, 2007

It could be an easy let-down line, though if it is her a. going on a date with him b. telling him she found him good-looking and c. telling him she has a crush on him indicates very poor judgment in crafting the let-down line or a certain streak of cruelty.

If you want to pursue this be persistent, for a while. If she was really trying to put you off nicely she will get less ambiguous in a hurry (unless she's a real piece of work and gets sick enjoyment out of toying with you with mixed signals), and it's also possible she she is so genuinely apprehensive of a relationship that she will not budge in which case she will probably start to actively push you away eventually. My point is, don't wait around forever. If she's not coming around or interested it would be best to move on.

The other possibility is that a relationship will come about and you know who can tell you how that will turn out? Nobody can tell you how that will turn out. So what the fuck: fall in love, get hurt by hurtful things you should have seen coming, cry and get depressed. You want to die with no scars?

In terms of what works, try to be honest about everything that matters, and open hearted. That is the only thing that ever works.
posted by nanojath at 10:40 PM on January 22, 2007 [2 favorites]