Dealing with well-meaning but obnoxious people.

December 29, 2006 8:40 PM

At a party the other day, there was a guy who lived in China until about a year ago, who was behaving obnoxiously (invading personal space, being too loud), but I felt that he meant well, and just didn't know how to behave. How to deal with this?

There's a part of me that really wants to be more accepting of someone from another culture who doesn't understand the unwritten rules, but of course my gut feeling is one of discomfort.

I've also been in situations in the past with people who are from these parts and are somewhat obnoxious, or maybe just boring, but I still feel are well-meaning. While I am somewhat less sympathetic towards people who have grown up here, I know that my own social skills have not always been stellar, and I was always grateful in the past when people would talk to lil' ol' awkward me.

Are there constructive ways of handling this, even if they are only in my own mind? Blatantly correcting the behavior of someone I just met would be rude and obnoxious itself. Or should I just go with my gut and avoid these people, sticking to the ones I find more interesting and personable?

posted by rwatson to human relations (17 comments total)

If people are just mildly annoying you, but not being rude or obnoxious (and by rude I mean being downright offensive, not just standing too close), I would just remind yourself that they're trying to be nice and to be nice yourself.

It is absolutely *never* a bad idea to just be nice, friendly, and personable. You don't have to be their best friend for the night, but you don't have to give someone standing alone the cold shoulder because you think they are boring. Use your superior social skills to introduce them to other people, ask them questions about themselves, or just say some quick hellos on your way to chatting with other people.

In the past, I have blown off people just because I thought they were kinda boring or weird. To this day, I regret ever thinking I was better than someone who was just being nice.
posted by tastybrains at 9:42 PM on December 29, 2006

Since this sort of behavior is typical in the U.S. when someone is drunk and trying to start a fight, I suggest you try to correct their behavior.

I can remember three people from China that I've met in my life. All of them stood WAY TOO CLOSE and talked WAY TOO LOUD.

Not sure how this goes over in China. And I don't care. Anyone who really cared about these folks would explain the situation to them.
posted by Tiddles at 9:53 PM on December 29, 2006

This might not be what you are asking, but it may be helpful to consider.
I seem to recall an article in the NYTimes at least two years ago about this very issue, and the jist of it was- globalization is not just an economic issue, it's a cultural issue as well, and it takes some time to bring everything together. Just as the 'ugly American' was difficult to deal with for the rest of the world, the Japanese had the same problem in the 1990s. It is something that happens as more affluence allows more people to travel. The larger picture view may be more helpful.

In the meantime, it is rather obnoxious, as I will be the first to admit. I am not entirely sure what you're asking, though. Is this a conscience question?
posted by lilithim at 10:21 PM on December 29, 2006

From his perspective, you probably appeared extremely shy, if not rudely offputting. Every time he tried to approach you at a (to him) friendly social distance, you backed away from him, as if he had the plague, or thought he stunk. When he tried to speak to you in a friendly, engaging way, you acted as if his very words were an assault. On the streets of Chongqing, you wouldn't last 10 minutes.

Just because he is a visitor in your country, doesn't make your social norms "right," any more than being "harrassed" (by your standards) at every turn if you visited his city would feel proper. But this kind of thing is a constant source of interpersonal mis-communication all over the world.

An American in Paris, asking directions on the street, will often feel the need to back away from the Parisan trying to help the American. Parisans stand about 18" away from one another, when talking on the street, wheras Americans normally speak to a stranger on the street at a "comfortable" distance of 30 to 36 inches apart. So the Parisan gestures and tries to get close enough to the American to be sure he's understood, and the American backs away, feeling like the Parisan is pursuing him down the street. More than once, I've seen American tourist backed up 20 feet in under 2 minutes by Parisans around popular tourists destinations. It's hilarious.

If you have reason to believe, by information you have, or introduction you are given, or by things you observe, that a person is a guest in your country rather than a native, please don't act as if you have a license to "inform" them of the "rules" of your culture, as some attempt at "kindness." That would be extremely boorish on your part. Instead, act with a somewhat broader focus and a respect for the variations of human culture, which are as viable as your own, although they originate elsewhere on the planet.
posted by paulsc at 10:54 PM on December 29, 2006

"You're standing too close. I'm not used to it." Some people talk loud enough to cause ear pain or smell strong enough (perfume) to make me dizzy. Culture or no culture, I need my space. Maybe you do, too.
posted by Listener at 11:15 PM on December 29, 2006

I've spent time in a couple of countries with very different cultures and ways of social interaction to my own, and if I was inadvertently doing something which natives would regard as rude or offensive, or even mildly impolite, I would have appreciated being told about it. Because as nice as it is to consider everyone part of the same great big global village, there are a lot of people who will take offence and it may stunt the newly-arrived foreigner's ability to settle in.

I certainly wouldn't bring something like this up with someone I had just met (for all I know they are perfectly aware of how they're being perceived, and just don't care, and will themselves be affronted by you mentioning it), but I'd put up with it until I got to know them better, then work out a polite way of bringing it to their attention.
posted by A Thousand Baited Hooks at 12:55 AM on December 30, 2006

You can try the "When in Rome" approach. Next time he does something that could be considered out of bounds by American standards (And by that, I mean your personal standards) offer to give him a free lesson in the local culture. For example, many people are made uncomfortable in America if you stand closer than an arm's length away when talking to them.
_{(People have done similar things for me in Japan. I was always thankful for the lessons.)}
posted by Ookseer at 12:55 AM on December 30, 2006

Ah, proxemics.

paulsc, I agree with you that no social norm can be considered universally true. That said, I think the way you're framing the issue is a little aggressive.

You've left out the crucial piece of information regarding these social interactions -- how to mediate them successfully. What should the Parisians be doing instead of what they're doing? What should the Americans be doing instead of what they're doing? You seem to be suggesting that Americans, when dealing with people from other cultures, should consistently suck it up regardless of where they are. This seems like an odd position for a cultural relativist to be taking, since the only determining factor for the appropriateness of a social norm is the number of people in the population who believe it. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Likewise, when in Poughkeepsie, do as the uh, Poughkeepsians do.

I don't have to claim to know the The One True Distance To Stand From Someone Else In A Non-Intimate Interaction in order to feel alienated by distance or harried by proximity. That's a purely subjective experience, mediated partially by my cultural context and partially by my history in that context, and informing others of my boundaries and of my desire that they respect those boundaries is not ethnocentric of me. Speaking on behalf of a huge population or Universal Truth would be.

So. Rwatson. Instead of watching this poor guy unknowingly alienate you (and possibly others) at a party and trying to appreciate the variations of human culture, I think it would probably be best if you, while interacting with him, spoke up about the things he does which affect you personally. Keep the things he does objective ("when you stand that close to me", not "when you stand too close to me") and what how it affects you subjective ("I feel flustered and trapped", not "you weird people out"). This will keep you from placing objective judgments on what he's doing (which would be ethnocentric and assholey) and from trying to back up your feelings by speaking on behalf of the entire culture or Universal Reason or what have you.

So:

Him: blah blah Partridge Family blah
*steps closer*
*you feel he's too close*
You: I really don't mean to be rude, but when you stand that close to me I start to feel claustrophobic and kind of pressured. It's nothing personal, I'm just not used to people standing that closely to me.
Him: Oh, I'm sorry.
*backs up a scootch*

(Please note that this will totally not work on the streets of Chongqing, which your only option is to suck it up. When in Chongqing, jostle with strangers.)

Proxemics is an amazingly rich area of study, and the it's well worth spending some time figuring out what your boundaries are and with who. In one exercise, I was paired with a 6'7" ex-Euro-league basketball player. I had him stop about 4 feet away, which made me realize I don't like having male strangers withing punching distance. Having a man of roughly the same age bracket up in my grill pushes my boundaries, yet I'm perfectly willing to let my partner be however close she pleases to my face. This is something which can change radically with context, too -- being smooshed against someone in a subway car is only vaguely uncomfortable for me, but it would be intolerable in a parking lot.

So starting learning about your proxemic boundaries, start thinking about them as a product of culture and personal experience rather than as an objective limit, and always try to put yourself in someone else's shoes.
posted by Coda at 1:21 AM on December 30, 2006

In case the long rambling post of mine doesn't make sense, here's the Cliff Notes:

Person A: You're standing too close to me.
Person B: No, I'm standing about 18 inches away from you, which is about how far away I stand from anyone I'm not making out with.

Person A: When you stand about 18 inches away from me, I feel claustrophobic.
Person B: Ah, you must have a different interpretation of personal space. Weird! *scootch*
posted by Coda at 1:27 AM on December 30, 2006

Why not bring it up in a discussion of cultural differences?
In that context there is none of the patronizing tone associated with: "Blend in you foreigner" which is probably why you're hesitant to bring it up.
Instead, you can give him room to observe things about your culture as well. You'll learn how to fit in the next time you're invited to a party with all mainland Chinese people, and he'll get the information without the implicit command to back off and pipe down.
posted by sourmike at 5:47 AM on December 30, 2006

If you were in a room of Chinese people, would you want to be told "You need to yell and invade everyone's personal space, because the way you are acting now seems rude to everyone here"? If you were told that, would you be able to follow the advice?
posted by 23skidoo at 6:06 AM on December 30, 2006

23skidoo:
Me? 1) Absofuckingluely, if the person who told me was credible and, upon looking around it seemed plausible. And 2), I'd do my best. Have in similar situations. (ie: being told the culturally sensitive thing to do was something my mom would slap me for.) Occasionally commended by those who notice. Sometimes knowing someone is making an effort can make up for a lot of flaws.
posted by Ookseer at 6:22 AM on December 30, 2006

Thanks for some thought-provoking answers so far. The way I phrased the question understated that I need to be able to deal with natives with bad social skills as well, who I imagine will be less receptive to redirection. Would you still give the same advice in these situations?

lilithim: Is this a conscience question?

Well, kinda. But I already know that the right thing to do (in my personal moral system anyway) is probably to make an effort to be nice to other well-meaning people, especially in an environment like a party. I'm more interested in practical ways of getting to comfortably converse with someone who would ordinarily make me uncomfortable.

23skidoo: Yeah, I think I would want to be told that, but it might be awkward with that one person.
posted by rwatson at 6:55 AM on December 30, 2006

I can remember three people from China that I've met in my life. All of them stood WAY TOO CLOSE and talked WAY TOO LOUD.

Just to emphasize what paulsc and coda have said, different cultures have different standards in these matters, and Americans are way towards the "OMG don't get near me!" end of the personal-space paranoia scale, which means we have this kind of problem a lot. The first step is to realize it's not a matter of the other person being wrong/obnoxious, it's just a matter of speaking different body languages; once you assimilate that, it becomes much easier to deal with.

From Barbara Monahan's Dictionary of Russian Gesture:

The two males in the photo are engaged in ordinary conversation. The distance between the speakers is one that most Americans find uncomfortable. A distance of about 6—10 inches is considered normal and natural between two standing men or women.

It is interesting to note that in poor rural areas of the USSR, this distance between speakers is considerably narrower. Some Soviet informants incline to the theory that urbanization has led to something approaching the feeling of alienation so prevalent in the West and that the lack of privacy in large Soviet cities accounts in part for the greater distance between speakers there.

(The book was published before the fall of the USSR, obviously.)
posted by languagehat at 7:20 AM on December 30, 2006

Part of the fun of life is mixing with people who are different, so please don't just retreat to the safe and familiar. The opportunity to spend time with someone fresh from China is a valuable one, even if it involves a little discomfort. And he may well have been pretty uncomfortable too.

Engaging strange strangers in talking about what is different is usually interesting, and could be a lead in to saying that some of their behaviour is unusual around where you are -- but don't sweat it too much, you don't _have_ to correct their behaviour yourself.

It is nice that you care.
posted by Idcoytco at 8:03 AM on December 30, 2006

The way I phrased the question understated that I need to be able to deal with natives with bad social skills as well, who I imagine will be less receptive to redirection. Would you still give the same advice in these situations?

Sometimes I'll ask if it's a "family" quirk. Only example I can think of is when someone has to touch me while we're talking. I'll ask if they grew up in a very touchy family, and I'd contrast it and say my own family is very non-touchy, so this can weird me out. Try to express it is just as an "isn't that odd" type thing, and that both families are equally right.

Or if I'm in a much less polite mood, I'll switch it around, and start getting closer and louder than he finds comfortable.
posted by RobotHero at 10:43 AM on December 30, 2006

Just as a caveat, I've lived in China for more than a decade, in rural and metropolitan areas, and the only places I can recall there being personal space issues was in the ruck queuing for train tickets back in the day (it's mostly more civilised now). People are a bit noisier in restaurants than they might be at home, but I also don't find a cultural predilection for shouting at you in one-on-one conversation.
This may well be a personal issue this man has.
posted by Abiezer at 5:26 PM on December 30, 2006