Whose Cats Are These Anyways?
December 6, 2006 3:39 PM Subscribe
Who should keep the cats?
My ex-girlfriend and I broke up three years ago.
In addition to two closets worth of her stuff, she left behind three cats. The three cats had lived with us for seven years. Before that, they had lived with her for two years. The cats were a gift to her from her mother - who has since died.
During the time the cats lived with us (and in the three years since) I paid for all vet bills, paid for the food and litter, and did all the cat-related dirty work (litter box detail and vomit disposal). Since she's moved out, I've let her visit the cats when she wants. She has never moved the cats in with her because she has never lived in a cat friendly building since.
As you might imagine, I like the cats very much. I've been an excellent pet owner. I took over all the care duties when my ex was still living with me because she would forget to do it. For example, if I didn't clean the litter box, they would end up pissing all over her clothes before she'd clean it.
Anyhow, I finally asked her to move the rest of her stuff out of the apartment because, well, she doesn't live there and doesn't pay for the space and because I want to use the space. I don't think that is unreasonable. I also want my key back because I don't want her just coming and going whenever she wants anymore. I also don't think that is unreasonable.
She announced to me that she was going to move the cats out, too. She will move them to her new boyfriend's apartment where cats are not allowed sooner than leave them at my apartment and not be able to get in whenever she wants.
These are older cats, one of which has a health problem, and I just don't feel this is in their best interest. However, they are her cats in the sense that they were a gift from her late mother. However, I've been their primary caregiver these last ten or so years.
So, in essence, whose cats are these? What do you think I should do?
I'm in much too emotional a state about this to think rationally about it. I mean, the sick cat has been my constant companion for the last three years. Your advice would be much appreciated.
My ex-girlfriend and I broke up three years ago.
In addition to two closets worth of her stuff, she left behind three cats. The three cats had lived with us for seven years. Before that, they had lived with her for two years. The cats were a gift to her from her mother - who has since died.
During the time the cats lived with us (and in the three years since) I paid for all vet bills, paid for the food and litter, and did all the cat-related dirty work (litter box detail and vomit disposal). Since she's moved out, I've let her visit the cats when she wants. She has never moved the cats in with her because she has never lived in a cat friendly building since.
As you might imagine, I like the cats very much. I've been an excellent pet owner. I took over all the care duties when my ex was still living with me because she would forget to do it. For example, if I didn't clean the litter box, they would end up pissing all over her clothes before she'd clean it.
Anyhow, I finally asked her to move the rest of her stuff out of the apartment because, well, she doesn't live there and doesn't pay for the space and because I want to use the space. I don't think that is unreasonable. I also want my key back because I don't want her just coming and going whenever she wants anymore. I also don't think that is unreasonable.
She announced to me that she was going to move the cats out, too. She will move them to her new boyfriend's apartment where cats are not allowed sooner than leave them at my apartment and not be able to get in whenever she wants.
These are older cats, one of which has a health problem, and I just don't feel this is in their best interest. However, they are her cats in the sense that they were a gift from her late mother. However, I've been their primary caregiver these last ten or so years.
So, in essence, whose cats are these? What do you think I should do?
I'm in much too emotional a state about this to think rationally about it. I mean, the sick cat has been my constant companion for the last three years. Your advice would be much appreciated.
Of course you should keep the cats. However, she isn't seeing it that way.
When I was a paralegal, we handled a case where the parties in the divorce were squabbling over ownership of the dog. They spent $10,000 fighting over that dog and in the end neither party was able to take the dog because their living arrangements would not allow it.
I only mention that because this could get way out of control. Have you told ex-girly friend your thoughts? How often does she see the cats? Can you change the locks? Ack - that might get ugly.
Technically, they are her cats, even though you were nice enough to care for them. Did you pay the vet bills because she asked you to? Did you clean up their messes because she asked you to or because you felt you had to because she wasn't cleaning up? She could claim she never asked you to do those things. Perhaps she likes cat piss on her clothes.
I have added nothing to a solution to your dilemma, but I do wish you best of luck in gaining custody of your friends.
posted by Sassyfras at 3:57 PM on December 6, 2006
When I was a paralegal, we handled a case where the parties in the divorce were squabbling over ownership of the dog. They spent $10,000 fighting over that dog and in the end neither party was able to take the dog because their living arrangements would not allow it.
I only mention that because this could get way out of control. Have you told ex-girly friend your thoughts? How often does she see the cats? Can you change the locks? Ack - that might get ugly.
Technically, they are her cats, even though you were nice enough to care for them. Did you pay the vet bills because she asked you to? Did you clean up their messes because she asked you to or because you felt you had to because she wasn't cleaning up? She could claim she never asked you to do those things. Perhaps she likes cat piss on her clothes.
I have added nothing to a solution to your dilemma, but I do wish you best of luck in gaining custody of your friends.
posted by Sassyfras at 3:57 PM on December 6, 2006
They are yours. You've had exclusive care and control of them for three years. I have no idea about the legalities, but do you think she would go that far?
She's being completely unreasonable and selfish, and you should put your foot down about giving her the cats. They and you deserve better.
posted by Mavri at 3:58 PM on December 6, 2006
She's being completely unreasonable and selfish, and you should put your foot down about giving her the cats. They and you deserve better.
posted by Mavri at 3:58 PM on December 6, 2006
They're yours. They used to be hers, but she was forced to abandon them when you broke up, you took over total responsibility for their daily care/feeding/housing/health care and kindly let her visit. Three years without contributing to the daily care and medical bills pretty much relinquishes her rights as "owner" to the pets.
First, change the locks. That solves her from coming in and just taking the cats. Do it today if you can. There's really no reason for her to be able to get into your apartment whenever she wants -- cat visitation or not. You're not running a free animal shelter and a public storage facility.
The other thing you might want to consider is having the vet you've been going to put an ID chip in the cats and register them to you, right away. Also, if your town has a rabies program for felines, make sure they are registered in your name. These two things, along with copies of vet records/credit card recipes and canceled checks to the vet, should be enough to establish ownership.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to get mean about it, or sever all ties with her, but it wouldn't hurt to protect the cats interest (and yours). If she ever took them, you could call the cops, basically.
Once you do that, you can let her know that your intention was not to make it contentious but you just needed the extra space in your apartment.
posted by jerseygirl at 4:06 PM on December 6, 2006
First, change the locks. That solves her from coming in and just taking the cats. Do it today if you can. There's really no reason for her to be able to get into your apartment whenever she wants -- cat visitation or not. You're not running a free animal shelter and a public storage facility.
The other thing you might want to consider is having the vet you've been going to put an ID chip in the cats and register them to you, right away. Also, if your town has a rabies program for felines, make sure they are registered in your name. These two things, along with copies of vet records/credit card recipes and canceled checks to the vet, should be enough to establish ownership.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to get mean about it, or sever all ties with her, but it wouldn't hurt to protect the cats interest (and yours). If she ever took them, you could call the cops, basically.
Once you do that, you can let her know that your intention was not to make it contentious but you just needed the extra space in your apartment.
posted by jerseygirl at 4:06 PM on December 6, 2006
You could offer her the key back and maybe she'd let you keep the cats. Sounds like you upped the ante with asking her to move her stuff out etc. and she's retaliating with the only leverage she has. If your goal is "justice," then be prepared for a lot of acrimony. If your goal is to keep the cats around for a little longer, then give her back the key and let her keep her full "visitation rights."
posted by footnote at 4:09 PM on December 6, 2006
posted by footnote at 4:09 PM on December 6, 2006
Sometimes in life you've just got to put your foot down. I think this is probably one of those times.
They are your cats! Even if we forget about the 7 years you were together, you've now cared for them for 3 years after your g/f left. While technically her mother gave them to her, I think that if she really wanted them, she could have found a apartment in the last 3 years that let her have them. She's just taking them now out of spite.
I'd say "Sorry honey, I don't want to give them back. I care for them and I don't think it would be a good idea to move a sick cat to another new home (especially one where she'd have to 'sneak' it around)". Then, give her stuff back and get your key. If she won't give you the key, change the locks.
Ultimately, I suspect this will cause some bad blood between the two of you. But, realistically, it appears that you are over seeing her and dealing with her any way (moving her stuff out, getting your key back) and the cats are just going to be the catalyst that you always remember (but weren't really the cause!).
posted by ranglin at 4:11 PM on December 6, 2006
They are your cats! Even if we forget about the 7 years you were together, you've now cared for them for 3 years after your g/f left. While technically her mother gave them to her, I think that if she really wanted them, she could have found a apartment in the last 3 years that let her have them. She's just taking them now out of spite.
I'd say "Sorry honey, I don't want to give them back. I care for them and I don't think it would be a good idea to move a sick cat to another new home (especially one where she'd have to 'sneak' it around)". Then, give her stuff back and get your key. If she won't give you the key, change the locks.
Ultimately, I suspect this will cause some bad blood between the two of you. But, realistically, it appears that you are over seeing her and dealing with her any way (moving her stuff out, getting your key back) and the cats are just going to be the catalyst that you always remember (but weren't really the cause!).
posted by ranglin at 4:11 PM on December 6, 2006
She's had three years to find a cat-friendly place to live; if the cats were that important to her, she would've found somewhere to live with them before now.
My mom died; I have her two cats. If I'd been in your ex's situation, I might've left them with you for a couple-three months while I found a cat-ok place, but three years is pushing it. She's taken advantage of you - and you've let her - by leaving her stuff in storage with you. BUt cats are not "stuff", and if her solution is to move a sick, elderly cat into a less stable situation, then you have to find some way to work it out
Is there a mutual friend that you'd both trust to act as a mediator? Your town/city might have a similar, low-cost or free service, if you don't want to burden a friend with this. Also, what footnote said.
posted by rtha at 4:15 PM on December 6, 2006
My mom died; I have her two cats. If I'd been in your ex's situation, I might've left them with you for a couple-three months while I found a cat-ok place, but three years is pushing it. She's taken advantage of you - and you've let her - by leaving her stuff in storage with you. BUt cats are not "stuff", and if her solution is to move a sick, elderly cat into a less stable situation, then you have to find some way to work it out
Is there a mutual friend that you'd both trust to act as a mediator? Your town/city might have a similar, low-cost or free service, if you don't want to burden a friend with this. Also, what footnote said.
posted by rtha at 4:15 PM on December 6, 2006
Your ex girlfriend owns the cats. The cats are much better off with you. She only wants them to punish you. And even move them into an apartment where pets are not allowed. A great lady. If it gets even more ugly let her have the cats. You will face a nightmare if she takes you to court. Change the locks. Let her take her clothes as she has no right at all to use your space. I would say that you should stand-up for yourself. You are very kind but she is taking advantage of you. She definitely is not thinking of the welfare of the cats.
posted by JayRwv at 4:16 PM on December 6, 2006
posted by JayRwv at 4:16 PM on December 6, 2006
As a cat owner, I would never move into a building where I couldn't bring my cats. You'd think that over the course of three years she'd be able to find a cat-friendly building. It sounds like she's just upset that you're making her move her stuff and give back her key. You should keep them.
posted by christinetheslp at 4:17 PM on December 6, 2006
posted by christinetheslp at 4:17 PM on December 6, 2006
I think they are morally yours, but she has some rights. Change the locks because she's not going to give up the key and you need privacy and boundaries. Make arrangements for her to retrieve her stuff. Offer to set up a schedule for her to visit the cats.
Is money tight for you? If not, the vet and food costs are not the issue.
If you have her email address, send her info by email. Otherwise, write a letter. Be very polite, and limit your correspondence to only what is necessary, plus courtesies. Recognize that she has an emotional attachment to the cats, but has not made any effort to have a home available for them.
She's unlikely to actually get legal on you but you don't want to rile her up. And the cats are a slender connection to her Mom, and to you. It's time to break the connection to you.
My ex- used the darkroom in my house for years after we split, but often behaved badly to me, and never paid the amount we agreed on for costs. I later found out he hung out at my house with our son quite a bit while I was at work and it creeped me out. Boundaries are good, and the person who doesn't respect them may be playing power games. Don't play.
posted by theora55 at 4:24 PM on December 6, 2006
Is money tight for you? If not, the vet and food costs are not the issue.
If you have her email address, send her info by email. Otherwise, write a letter. Be very polite, and limit your correspondence to only what is necessary, plus courtesies. Recognize that she has an emotional attachment to the cats, but has not made any effort to have a home available for them.
She's unlikely to actually get legal on you but you don't want to rile her up. And the cats are a slender connection to her Mom, and to you. It's time to break the connection to you.
My ex- used the darkroom in my house for years after we split, but often behaved badly to me, and never paid the amount we agreed on for costs. I later found out he hung out at my house with our son quite a bit while I was at work and it creeped me out. Boundaries are good, and the person who doesn't respect them may be playing power games. Don't play.
posted by theora55 at 4:24 PM on December 6, 2006
I can't believe she still has a key to your apartment. Her stuff doesn't belong in your place. Have you not dated anyone in there intervening three years who asked whose stuff it was and who keeps letting herself into your apartment?
The cats are yours now. You will probably end whatever relationship you have with your ex by keeping them, but frankly, I don't see that as a problem.
posted by mzurer at 4:27 PM on December 6, 2006
The cats are yours now. You will probably end whatever relationship you have with your ex by keeping them, but frankly, I don't see that as a problem.
posted by mzurer at 4:27 PM on December 6, 2006
Maybe you can adopt some kittens from a shelter and give them to her? Explain that there is no way you can give the old ones up because you have grown so close to them the past couple years, but that these kittens were about to be put to sleep (fib.) and they need her love.
[Sorry if that's a terrible idea...]
posted by infinityjinx at 4:29 PM on December 6, 2006
[Sorry if that's a terrible idea...]
posted by infinityjinx at 4:29 PM on December 6, 2006
Morally speaking, absolutely the cats are yours. She didn't care for them when you were together, and she didn't bother to take them with her when you split. Forget that she hasn't lived in a cat-friendly building. If she had any real sense of ownership for the cats, she would have found one and lived there.
Hopefully it won't escalate to going to court, but I suppose if it did I (though IANAL) could see some arguments for claiming that they legally belong to you, such as having paid all their bills, cared for them, and the fact that she has let you keep them and is not paying you for taking care of them for her.
I wouldn't go changing the locks yet. Do try to reason with her and get her to give up the cats to you. If that doesn't work, then change your locks and all that.
posted by gauchodaspampas at 4:32 PM on December 6, 2006
Hopefully it won't escalate to going to court, but I suppose if it did I (though IANAL) could see some arguments for claiming that they legally belong to you, such as having paid all their bills, cared for them, and the fact that she has let you keep them and is not paying you for taking care of them for her.
I wouldn't go changing the locks yet. Do try to reason with her and get her to give up the cats to you. If that doesn't work, then change your locks and all that.
posted by gauchodaspampas at 4:32 PM on December 6, 2006
I suppose if you want to be a nice guy about it, if you are able to convince her to let you keep the cats once and for all, you could still let her visit the cats when it's convenient for the both of you. I recognize that she does have some emotional attachment to the cats, but its unfair of her to want to keep them.
posted by gauchodaspampas at 4:36 PM on December 6, 2006
posted by gauchodaspampas at 4:36 PM on December 6, 2006
Although they are yours now (as everyone says), maybe you could just give it to her. If she is as incompetant at taking care of them as you say and she lives in a place that doesn't allow animals, I would think you would get them back soon?
I don't want it to seem like I'm jeopardizing the lives of the cats, but I think it's a possible solution.
posted by carpyful at 4:38 PM on December 6, 2006
I don't want it to seem like I'm jeopardizing the lives of the cats, but I think it's a possible solution.
posted by carpyful at 4:38 PM on December 6, 2006
Don't give them to her and then let her know you will notify her landlord that she has three pets - rock and a hard place.
posted by heartquake at 4:50 PM on December 6, 2006
posted by heartquake at 4:50 PM on December 6, 2006
I think you should put blinders on and look at this from the cats' points of view, which -- given that they're older -- would probably be, "we're adjusted and content in this environment -- leave us here."
Moving an older cat to a new home can be tramatic. They're animals of routine, and highly territorial. Substitute one territory for another, and they can become listless, depressed, and experience dramatic changes in their eating habits. I know this from experience.
Please. Convince her that keeping them is the right decision for their health and psychology.
posted by Gordion Knott at 4:54 PM on December 6, 2006
Moving an older cat to a new home can be tramatic. They're animals of routine, and highly territorial. Substitute one territory for another, and they can become listless, depressed, and experience dramatic changes in their eating habits. I know this from experience.
Please. Convince her that keeping them is the right decision for their health and psychology.
posted by Gordion Knott at 4:54 PM on December 6, 2006
If you want to be a bastard about it, let her take them, then anonymously tip off the manager of her new boyfriend's apartments that he has pets he's not allowed to have. You'll get them back.
I certainly don't advocate being a bastard, but if you wanted to, that's how I'd do it.
If you don't want to be quite so much a bastard, you could just tell her you'll gladly let her have the cats as soon as she's living in a place that allows pets. Act as though it is utterly impossible for her to take them now -- "I mean, where are you going to put them?" -- and refuse to entertain the possibility that she'd do something against the lease. "I know you're not like that." That's pretty passive-aggressive, but it might work.
posted by kindall at 4:54 PM on December 6, 2006
I certainly don't advocate being a bastard, but if you wanted to, that's how I'd do it.
If you don't want to be quite so much a bastard, you could just tell her you'll gladly let her have the cats as soon as she's living in a place that allows pets. Act as though it is utterly impossible for her to take them now -- "I mean, where are you going to put them?" -- and refuse to entertain the possibility that she'd do something against the lease. "I know you're not like that." That's pretty passive-aggressive, but it might work.
posted by kindall at 4:54 PM on December 6, 2006
They're definitely your cats. She wants them out of spite.
It is definitely crazy your ex of three years still has stuff in your apartment, as well as a key. 'Bout time you put your foot down! Put your foot down about the cats too. Tell her you'll give them back as soon as she lives somewhere where she can legally keep them and pays you back for three years of food, cat litter, and vet bills.
posted by Anonymous at 5:11 PM on December 6, 2006
It is definitely crazy your ex of three years still has stuff in your apartment, as well as a key. 'Bout time you put your foot down! Put your foot down about the cats too. Tell her you'll give them back as soon as she lives somewhere where she can legally keep them and pays you back for three years of food, cat litter, and vet bills.
posted by Anonymous at 5:11 PM on December 6, 2006
Also, I strongly advocate against letting her have them with the assumption her carelessness/landlord issues will get them back. More likely, it will result in a trip to Animal Rescue and euthanasia, or best case scenario some very unhappy cats.
posted by Anonymous at 5:12 PM on December 6, 2006
posted by Anonymous at 5:12 PM on December 6, 2006
If I were you, I would change your locks before she takes the cats while you're out. They are your cats now - it is ridiculous to think she has any claim to them if you have paid for their food, litter, and vet bills for the past 3 years (let alone the time you were together), and she hasn't moved to a pet-friendly building and attempted before now to get them back.
Set up a time for her to come by and pick up her junk. Work out a visitation schedule. But your apartment is just that - YOUR apartment. She has no right to come and go as she pleases.
If this escalates in any way, please contact an attorney. I see that you live in Hawaii - a quick google found this attorney that specializes in animal law, including custody cases just like this.
posted by gatorae at 5:16 PM on December 6, 2006
Set up a time for her to come by and pick up her junk. Work out a visitation schedule. But your apartment is just that - YOUR apartment. She has no right to come and go as she pleases.
If this escalates in any way, please contact an attorney. I see that you live in Hawaii - a quick google found this attorney that specializes in animal law, including custody cases just like this.
posted by gatorae at 5:16 PM on December 6, 2006
You could offer her the key back and maybe she'd let you keep the cats
Yeah, and he could offer every cent he makes for the next five years and maybe she'd let him keep the cats. Jesus. This woman has no right to the cats or the keys (I can't believe you've let her have the keys to your place all this time), she's clearly doing it to get back at you, and you should change the locks forthwith (and put her stuff out in the hall, letting her know when she can pick it up). Do not listen to those who are suggesting you "just give them to her" and you'll get them back; as schroedinger says, that's a recipe for disaster.
posted by languagehat at 5:22 PM on December 6, 2006
Yeah, and he could offer every cent he makes for the next five years and maybe she'd let him keep the cats. Jesus. This woman has no right to the cats or the keys (I can't believe you've let her have the keys to your place all this time), she's clearly doing it to get back at you, and you should change the locks forthwith (and put her stuff out in the hall, letting her know when she can pick it up). Do not listen to those who are suggesting you "just give them to her" and you'll get them back; as schroedinger says, that's a recipe for disaster.
posted by languagehat at 5:22 PM on December 6, 2006
To reiterate, definitely change the locks first. Forget her giving up the key, don't give her a choice in the matter or the opportunity to make a duplicate. You also want some concrete establishment of ownership on the cats. Microchipping would do that. If she took off the with the cats to her apartment all the police/animal control would have to do to establish they were yours is scan them. It would work nationwide through animal control or a vet, and you could report the animals stolen through the microchip program. Its really reasonably priced.
She can visit the cats when you say it's okay, make a mutually convenient appointment and you'd be happy to visit the cats with her. The reality of it is, she wants to maintain the emotional ties to her mother via the cats but she wants zero responsibility for them. If she threatens to take the cats, tell her you'll make a call to the police first reporting stolen microchipped animals registered to your name and her new landlord second. She can play by the rules and visit your cats or she can never see them again.
Do not relinquish the cats to her under any circumstances. If she hasn't had financial conscience enough to participate in their ongoing care, she's not going to take care of them by getting them needed medical treatment if you let her have them. And certainly, out of spite (and spite crops up in situations like these for sure), she may even dump them at a shelter, if caught by her landlord, just so you don't get them back.
posted by jerseygirl at 6:37 PM on December 6, 2006
She can visit the cats when you say it's okay, make a mutually convenient appointment and you'd be happy to visit the cats with her. The reality of it is, she wants to maintain the emotional ties to her mother via the cats but she wants zero responsibility for them. If she threatens to take the cats, tell her you'll make a call to the police first reporting stolen microchipped animals registered to your name and her new landlord second. She can play by the rules and visit your cats or she can never see them again.
Do not relinquish the cats to her under any circumstances. If she hasn't had financial conscience enough to participate in their ongoing care, she's not going to take care of them by getting them needed medical treatment if you let her have them. And certainly, out of spite (and spite crops up in situations like these for sure), she may even dump them at a shelter, if caught by her landlord, just so you don't get them back.
posted by jerseygirl at 6:37 PM on December 6, 2006
Add me to the list of incredulous people who cannot imagine letting an ex havea key for five minutes, let alone three years.
They're your animals. Change the locks, give her stuff back, and point out if she was so in love with the cats she's had three years to find a place that will take them.
I imagine New Boyfriend will support you in this, unless he's a rabid animal lover.
posted by maxwelton at 6:38 PM on December 6, 2006
They're your animals. Change the locks, give her stuff back, and point out if she was so in love with the cats she's had three years to find a place that will take them.
I imagine New Boyfriend will support you in this, unless he's a rabid animal lover.
posted by maxwelton at 6:38 PM on December 6, 2006
It sure sounds like she's being petty. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, these cats belong with you. She's had years to find a way to make the move happen and hasn't done it. Maybe it would have been a tremendous sacrifice somehow, but that doesn't change the fact that they've been your daily companions for three years (and some time before that when you cohabitated with her) so asking you to surrender them so they can go live with a stranger is just nonsense.
That said, I will be the voice of bummer and pessimism here:
First, change the locks. That solves her from coming in and just taking the cats. Do it today if you can.
The problem is, her stuff is there - the whole reason you're in this discussion. She could make a somewhat plausible claim that she's a tenant and make a law enforcement claim for access, depending on exactly what this stuff is. Some boxes in a corner, probably not. Closets full of clothing? More problematic. It flies in the face of reason but the law is set up to be on the side of people who might be denied access to their living quarters - it's why you find so many horror stories about landlords and nightmare tenants.
Personally I'd do it anyway, but be prepared - she's willing to be spiteful when it comes to the lives of living creatures she theoretically cares for, maybe she'll be spiteful and go to your landlord too, or the cops. You'll improve your position somewhat if you pre-box all that crap up and there's no sign she lives there. Plus it'll be easier to just hand it to her and tell her to hit the bricks.
posted by phearlez at 6:58 PM on December 6, 2006
That said, I will be the voice of bummer and pessimism here:
First, change the locks. That solves her from coming in and just taking the cats. Do it today if you can.
The problem is, her stuff is there - the whole reason you're in this discussion. She could make a somewhat plausible claim that she's a tenant and make a law enforcement claim for access, depending on exactly what this stuff is. Some boxes in a corner, probably not. Closets full of clothing? More problematic. It flies in the face of reason but the law is set up to be on the side of people who might be denied access to their living quarters - it's why you find so many horror stories about landlords and nightmare tenants.
Personally I'd do it anyway, but be prepared - she's willing to be spiteful when it comes to the lives of living creatures she theoretically cares for, maybe she'll be spiteful and go to your landlord too, or the cops. You'll improve your position somewhat if you pre-box all that crap up and there's no sign she lives there. Plus it'll be easier to just hand it to her and tell her to hit the bricks.
posted by phearlez at 6:58 PM on December 6, 2006
Here's a great plan (similar to one I've used before): 1. change your locks. This will be the best 30 dollars you ever spend. 2. Call her and tell her that in 24 hours all her stuff will be out in the street, and if she doesn't come get it, someone else will. Give her a specific time it will be on your front porch. (you can check with whatever state your in, but some states have laws saying that if an item has been in someone else's possession for more than X amount of months, the item's original owner forfeits the right to that item.) 3. Enjoy your cats. You've got to have some proverbial balls about this. This is a great opportunity for you to get your life back and gain some confidence.
posted by bash at 7:45 PM on December 6, 2006
posted by bash at 7:45 PM on December 6, 2006
Perhaps you could ask her for a key to her boyfriend's apartment so you could visit these cats on demand, since you're obviously very attached to them?
I mean, that's a ridiculous solution, right? Maybe forcing her to look at it that way would help her understand how ridiculous the current scenario is from your perspective. Then you just need to make her realize it's best for the cats not to be moved somewhere they're not even permitted to be, and not accustomed to.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:59 PM on December 6, 2006 [1 favorite]
I mean, that's a ridiculous solution, right? Maybe forcing her to look at it that way would help her understand how ridiculous the current scenario is from your perspective. Then you just need to make her realize it's best for the cats not to be moved somewhere they're not even permitted to be, and not accustomed to.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:59 PM on December 6, 2006 [1 favorite]
seconding bash's post. have no mercy.
posted by Señor Pantalones at 8:25 PM on December 6, 2006
posted by Señor Pantalones at 8:25 PM on December 6, 2006
Here is the section of Hawaii State Law on a landlord's responsibility for property left behind by a tenant. While not your specific situation, it seems relevant. State law says the former tenant has 15 days to claim their property before it can be sold, donated to charity, or disposed of. Dude, it's been 3 years. The cats are yours.
posted by peppermint22 at 9:54 PM on December 6, 2006
posted by peppermint22 at 9:54 PM on December 6, 2006
Oof, this was a tough post to read. So many painful details, won't bore you, BUT I gave what really felt like MY kitty to the ex. Okay, one little detail, my cat didn't really like her. Um, it was just one of those things. Cats get attached to someone. I happened to be me. Maybe because I fed her and took care of her and cleaned her box and brushed her. It was a pretty bitter battle, at a painful time, and she sorta broke me down and i just wanted her to leave me alone.
Worst mistake ever. It may sound extreme, but a year and a half later, i'm still not letting myself off the hook for it.
Keeps da kitties.
posted by metasav at 10:59 PM on December 6, 2006
Worst mistake ever. It may sound extreme, but a year and a half later, i'm still not letting myself off the hook for it.
Keeps da kitties.
posted by metasav at 10:59 PM on December 6, 2006
Joey, dude ... do not under any circumstances give those cats to that woman. Do as others have suggested: change the locks, tell her when her stuff will be waiting outside, and then prepare for her to have a fit about it. The micro-chipping is a good idea too, just in case she gets crazy and does something sneaky (and/or illegal). I know you love those cats, and you have taken care of them all this time. She still doesn't have anywhere they can go, and either no one will take care of them if you let them go, or her boyfriend will end up in the same position as you, and he may not care as much as you have. If she wants to get the courts involved, let her. I'm reasonably certain your case would be solid.
Seriously, do not relinquish the cats. You know I know, the cats will not benefit in any way by leaving your care, and neither will you. Those cats are yours. End of story.
posted by Orb at 11:30 PM on December 6, 2006
Seriously, do not relinquish the cats. You know I know, the cats will not benefit in any way by leaving your care, and neither will you. Those cats are yours. End of story.
posted by Orb at 11:30 PM on December 6, 2006
You feed them, they own you. Change the locks, chip the cats, leave her stuff outside, and consider having several people around when she collects it.
In fact, you might want to consider moving her stuff into a self-storage unit, pay the minimum rental period, and send her the key or access card in the post. She's been using your apartment as a combination storage unit and petting zoo for just a little too long.
posted by holgate at 12:34 AM on December 7, 2006
In fact, you might want to consider moving her stuff into a self-storage unit, pay the minimum rental period, and send her the key or access card in the post. She's been using your apartment as a combination storage unit and petting zoo for just a little too long.
posted by holgate at 12:34 AM on December 7, 2006
Sweet mother of crap. Even if I *did* give my ex visitation rights to a shared pet, it would be on MY schedule, not whenever the hell she felt like it. Change your locks, now, because even if she gives you a key back, you can almost guarantee that she's going to make a copy in order to try to steal the cats from you. Or she might just try to steal them now, without giving you the key back.
From a legal standpoint, can she even prove that her mother gave her the cats? Can she prove that she had the cats before meeting you? Even if she can, I think there's a pretty solid case towards you being the legal owner now. She left the cats with you for 3 *years*, showing no intentions of wanting them back and being perfectly content to let you pay all the bills.
I'm in a (not really) similar situation right now... my best friend is taking care of my dog while I'm living in Ireland, until I get back next summer. I've given him a fair amount of money for vet bills and food bills because I intend to get my pooch back when I move back. As others have said, if she actually considered herself the owner of the cats, she would have: a) paid the cats' bills; b) made arrangements to retrieve the cats shortly after moving out, not *3 years later*, when her unlimited visitation rights were being cut off.
posted by antifuse at 1:58 AM on December 7, 2006
From a legal standpoint, can she even prove that her mother gave her the cats? Can she prove that she had the cats before meeting you? Even if she can, I think there's a pretty solid case towards you being the legal owner now. She left the cats with you for 3 *years*, showing no intentions of wanting them back and being perfectly content to let you pay all the bills.
I'm in a (not really) similar situation right now... my best friend is taking care of my dog while I'm living in Ireland, until I get back next summer. I've given him a fair amount of money for vet bills and food bills because I intend to get my pooch back when I move back. As others have said, if she actually considered herself the owner of the cats, she would have: a) paid the cats' bills; b) made arrangements to retrieve the cats shortly after moving out, not *3 years later*, when her unlimited visitation rights were being cut off.
posted by antifuse at 1:58 AM on December 7, 2006
In Ontario there are pet abandonment laws where after a fairly short period of time the original owner of the pet loses all rights. I think it's 6 weeks. You should check with your SPCA or Humane Society, they'll be able to tell you if you have those laws in your town.
Those are definitely your cats & I agree with everyone who's telling you to change the locks asap. You can pack up her other stuff and drop it at her place, or some other arrangement that keeps her away from your place & your furry friends.
posted by zarah at 3:24 AM on December 7, 2006
Those are definitely your cats & I agree with everyone who's telling you to change the locks asap. You can pack up her other stuff and drop it at her place, or some other arrangement that keeps her away from your place & your furry friends.
posted by zarah at 3:24 AM on December 7, 2006
A word for moderation: the poster is certainly within his rights to put his foot down adamantly, and it certainly is odd that he's let his ex use his place for so long. But reading between the lines of his post, it seems like his ex has been allowed to visit the cats over the past three years -- she didn't really abandon them, per se. At the same time, it seems clear that the ex is a mean, vindictive person. Sometimes, when normal people have to deal with crazy people like her, you have to exercise a little more caution than you feel like justice demands. It's all about strategy. If the poster changes the locks and announces the cats are his, then he's just inviting this crazy chick to escalate and start legal proceedings. That not be the wisest way to go about keeping the cats.
Poster, you're the only one who really knows how nuts this girl is. Proceed accordingly.
posted by footnote at 5:10 AM on December 7, 2006
Poster, you're the only one who really knows how nuts this girl is. Proceed accordingly.
posted by footnote at 5:10 AM on December 7, 2006
Footnote, I totally agree.
My heart bleeds for Joey and these cats. But they are not his cats. This is not a clear-cut case of abandonment, as she has had contact and keys and other stuff there for years. This girl has been really irresponsible and frankly has a lot of gall to ask for them back-- but they really, really are hers.
Everyone has pointed out the weirdness of giving an ex such access to your life for so long after the relationship was over. Isn't it true that holding onto her stuff and caring for her pets has simply been a way to keep her in your life, however trivially? The longer you keep the cats and the more you care for them, the longer you have kept her. It sounds like you have recently grown strong enough to really put your foot down and stand up for yourself. But you can't have your cake and eat it too-- and you can't have sever your ties to her and still keep the cats. If emotional transference to them has taken place that seems to transcend the way you acquired them, that is your issue to deal with and not hers. Relinquish the emotional hostages, you will be better for it in the long run. I am a cat owner and it pains me to write that, but there ya go.
Everyone has been really hard on this woman, and while I won't defend her, this sounds like a classic co-dependency with problems on both sides. She has had no reason to move her cats over the last three years, because they have been a doorway for her to go in and out of your life whenever she wanted. I'm sure it has been easy for her to consider them better off while they were with you-- but she has never given up her claim on them, nor on you. Her decision to take them is an entirely predictable reaction to your rejection of this codependency. And it's not fair for her to have them, and not fair to them. But the reality of the situation is that losing her for keeps means losing the cats for keeps, and as a sadder-but-wiser adult you're going to have to face that-- or prepare yourself for some true ugliness in the near future.
posted by hermitosis at 7:03 AM on December 7, 2006
My heart bleeds for Joey and these cats. But they are not his cats. This is not a clear-cut case of abandonment, as she has had contact and keys and other stuff there for years. This girl has been really irresponsible and frankly has a lot of gall to ask for them back-- but they really, really are hers.
Everyone has pointed out the weirdness of giving an ex such access to your life for so long after the relationship was over. Isn't it true that holding onto her stuff and caring for her pets has simply been a way to keep her in your life, however trivially? The longer you keep the cats and the more you care for them, the longer you have kept her. It sounds like you have recently grown strong enough to really put your foot down and stand up for yourself. But you can't have your cake and eat it too-- and you can't have sever your ties to her and still keep the cats. If emotional transference to them has taken place that seems to transcend the way you acquired them, that is your issue to deal with and not hers. Relinquish the emotional hostages, you will be better for it in the long run. I am a cat owner and it pains me to write that, but there ya go.
Everyone has been really hard on this woman, and while I won't defend her, this sounds like a classic co-dependency with problems on both sides. She has had no reason to move her cats over the last three years, because they have been a doorway for her to go in and out of your life whenever she wanted. I'm sure it has been easy for her to consider them better off while they were with you-- but she has never given up her claim on them, nor on you. Her decision to take them is an entirely predictable reaction to your rejection of this codependency. And it's not fair for her to have them, and not fair to them. But the reality of the situation is that losing her for keeps means losing the cats for keeps, and as a sadder-but-wiser adult you're going to have to face that-- or prepare yourself for some true ugliness in the near future.
posted by hermitosis at 7:03 AM on December 7, 2006
Wow, I totally agree with hermitosis.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:05 AM on December 7, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:05 AM on December 7, 2006 [1 favorite]
I vehemently disagree with the idiots who suggest buying replacement cats or giving the cats back and then reporting her. That is tantamount to treating live animals as disposable objects. I know, OP, that you wouldn't do that.
I have to agree with some previously made points - chip the cats, if possible, in your name. Gather all your veterinary paperwork (you do save that, don't you?) that shows that you've been caring for these animals for the past three years. And yes, change your locks.
Don't put her stuff out on the street. Make an appointment for her to retrieve it, but do not relinquish the cats. They are your babies now. She has had more than enough time to find a space to move them to if she really wanted to. Moving the cats now would be cruel and traumatic.
Good luck. You'll need it.
posted by josingsinthehall at 7:22 AM on December 7, 2006
I have to agree with some previously made points - chip the cats, if possible, in your name. Gather all your veterinary paperwork (you do save that, don't you?) that shows that you've been caring for these animals for the past three years. And yes, change your locks.
Don't put her stuff out on the street. Make an appointment for her to retrieve it, but do not relinquish the cats. They are your babies now. She has had more than enough time to find a space to move them to if she really wanted to. Moving the cats now would be cruel and traumatic.
Good luck. You'll need it.
posted by josingsinthehall at 7:22 AM on December 7, 2006
A classic custody case. You have to decide.
If you need those cats
If you don't need those cats
If you need those cats
They're your cats unless she proves otherwise. They live with you, not with her. She left them behind. If you let them out, they would show up at your door for dinner. You sing to them. You provide the stable home that cats, especially old and sick cats, need to have, while she can only offer an illegal and perhaps temporary home at her current boyfriend's place. If cats are property, they are your property.OR...
Would she actually take you to court over cats? Ask a lawyer for advice concerning her chances of winning. And is she loony? Dangerous? How potentially dangerous is the new boyfriend? If she likes knives or the new boyfriend is an unstable brawler, look into how to get a restraining order -- so you can get one quickly and easily if you need it.
Change all the locks. Make sure all doors and windows are secure. Take care of any security weaknesses she might know about -- for instance, make sure she can't convince a landlord or neighbor or relative or some other keyholder that she still belongs in the place. Install an alarm.
Then put all her shit in sturdy boxes and mail it to her (fully insured, in case she claims it was broken or lost).
If you don't need those cats
Decide that you really don't need the cats as much as you need peace. If she can be trusted not to let harm come to them, let her have them and be absolutely done with her and, unfortunately, with the cats. While you're at it, find everything else that reminds you of her and throw it away.posted by pracowity at 7:42 AM on December 7, 2006
Then get a couple of kittens.
It sounds like you and your ex live relatively near one another.
I suggest that you tell her that before the cats transfer into her care, that you and she visit the cats' veterinarian together. Set a date for the vet visit for the three of you; the cats don't have to come, this is more of an informational thing. Before the appointment, have a talk with the vet about all the particulars of the situation; make sure he/she knows that the ex wants to move the cats where they aren't technically allowed, but that in a way, they are kind-of her cats. Ask the vet to explain to your ex, in practical terms, all the care instructions for the cats as well as the rights her boyfriend's landlord has if the cats are discovered (eviction, etc.).
Your job at this meeting is to listen and only speak if someone asks you a question. Hopefully, this meeting will impress on your ex the seriousness of this undertaking. If she still wants the cats, hopefully she will have conducted herself in a way that reassures you the cats will be well cared-for.
Also, since you have been the cats' only companion for three years, explain to her that you require a key to her apartment so you can visit the cats the same as she was able to.
posted by Sprout the Vulgarian at 7:50 AM on December 7, 2006
I suggest that you tell her that before the cats transfer into her care, that you and she visit the cats' veterinarian together. Set a date for the vet visit for the three of you; the cats don't have to come, this is more of an informational thing. Before the appointment, have a talk with the vet about all the particulars of the situation; make sure he/she knows that the ex wants to move the cats where they aren't technically allowed, but that in a way, they are kind-of her cats. Ask the vet to explain to your ex, in practical terms, all the care instructions for the cats as well as the rights her boyfriend's landlord has if the cats are discovered (eviction, etc.).
Your job at this meeting is to listen and only speak if someone asks you a question. Hopefully, this meeting will impress on your ex the seriousness of this undertaking. If she still wants the cats, hopefully she will have conducted herself in a way that reassures you the cats will be well cared-for.
Also, since you have been the cats' only companion for three years, explain to her that you require a key to her apartment so you can visit the cats the same as she was able to.
posted by Sprout the Vulgarian at 7:50 AM on December 7, 2006
I'm with some of the later commenters (footnote, hermitosis, pracowity). Technically, legally, ethically, financially, the cats are yours, clearly. But I think you have to ask yourself if you value THESE cats more than you do peace and sanity (as pracowity said). Do I love my cats? Yes. Would I go through a legal custody battle over them? No. Would I expose myself to all manner of crazy-ex-plus-new-boyfriend shenanigans over them? Probably not (depends on level of crazy).
The ex does have SOME level of claim to them, and if she really wants them, I'd probably give in.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:13 AM on December 7, 2006
The ex does have SOME level of claim to them, and if she really wants them, I'd probably give in.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:13 AM on December 7, 2006
This girl has been really irresponsible and frankly has a lot of gall to ask for them back-- but they really, really are hers.
I would agree with this if we were talking about a TV or a painting, but these are 10+ year old animals. They've been in this location for half a decade and they're in their declining years when they're less robust and tolerant of change. Relocating them from their home because of someone else's whim into a much less stable situation shouldn't be a cavalier decision.
I agree with above posters about thinking long about the difficulties of the possible conflict here, but a simple shrug and declaration of ownership just because she cares and visits sporadically is not a reasonable recognition of OP's emotional attachment or the best interests of the cats.
posted by phearlez at 10:02 AM on December 7, 2006
I would agree with this if we were talking about a TV or a painting, but these are 10+ year old animals. They've been in this location for half a decade and they're in their declining years when they're less robust and tolerant of change. Relocating them from their home because of someone else's whim into a much less stable situation shouldn't be a cavalier decision.
I agree with above posters about thinking long about the difficulties of the possible conflict here, but a simple shrug and declaration of ownership just because she cares and visits sporadically is not a reasonable recognition of OP's emotional attachment or the best interests of the cats.
posted by phearlez at 10:02 AM on December 7, 2006
Response by poster: First of all, thank you to everyone for your responses. There was a lot of stuff I needed to hear in this from everybody. Here is what happened.
I called her a few moments ago and we had a very level headed and rationale discussion about this whole situation.
We agreed that it was in the best interest of the cats for them to stay in my apartment for all of the health related issues mentioned. When she has moved to a cat friendly apartment, we agreed to reopen this discussion.
Furthermore, she recognizes that the real issue is her stuff being in my apartment and her still having a key to the apartment. She had moved about a third of the stuff out as of this writing and is coming back tomorrow with her boyfriend for me. Her boyfriend was really key in all of this - he asked her how she would feel if his ex-girlfriend was still coming over to his apartment whenever she wanted. That was sort of a lightbulb moment for her.
I apologized for not being more aggresive about making her move her stuff out sooner. I told her that I recognized that part of the problem is that - whether it was an effort to be nice or actual codependency - I created part of this problem by letting her keep her stuff here for so long. For her part, she apologized that she hasn't gotten on moving it out sooner.
We will work out some sort of cat visitation schedule for her that will not require her to have key access to the apartment.
Finally, she apologized for being vindictive. She says she was hurt by my asking for her to move the stuff out and lashed out. She said she was being selfish and not thinking of what was best for the cats.
Anyhow, she scores points as a human being and the problem is resolved.
Thank you all again for your advice. It was really key to my being able to have a rationale conversation with her today.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:15 PM on December 7, 2006
I called her a few moments ago and we had a very level headed and rationale discussion about this whole situation.
We agreed that it was in the best interest of the cats for them to stay in my apartment for all of the health related issues mentioned. When she has moved to a cat friendly apartment, we agreed to reopen this discussion.
Furthermore, she recognizes that the real issue is her stuff being in my apartment and her still having a key to the apartment. She had moved about a third of the stuff out as of this writing and is coming back tomorrow with her boyfriend for me. Her boyfriend was really key in all of this - he asked her how she would feel if his ex-girlfriend was still coming over to his apartment whenever she wanted. That was sort of a lightbulb moment for her.
I apologized for not being more aggresive about making her move her stuff out sooner. I told her that I recognized that part of the problem is that - whether it was an effort to be nice or actual codependency - I created part of this problem by letting her keep her stuff here for so long. For her part, she apologized that she hasn't gotten on moving it out sooner.
We will work out some sort of cat visitation schedule for her that will not require her to have key access to the apartment.
Finally, she apologized for being vindictive. She says she was hurt by my asking for her to move the stuff out and lashed out. She said she was being selfish and not thinking of what was best for the cats.
Anyhow, she scores points as a human being and the problem is resolved.
Thank you all again for your advice. It was really key to my being able to have a rationale conversation with her today.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:15 PM on December 7, 2006
Glad to hear things worked out well.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:32 PM on December 7, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:32 PM on December 7, 2006 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: That would be a rational conversation, not a rationale conversation. I realize that is just one of many spelling issues.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:44 PM on December 7, 2006
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:44 PM on December 7, 2006
Just to be a big pessimist: once her stuff is out you still need to change those locks. View it as an emotional tie-cutting rather than a cautious necessity if you like, but after 3 years of a key floating around out there under the control of a person who had no financial, security, or privacy interest in keeping access limited... you should re-secure your life.
posted by phearlez at 2:10 PM on December 7, 2006
posted by phearlez at 2:10 PM on December 7, 2006
That's great—you've restored, to some extent, my withered faith in human nature. But I agree with phearlez: change the locks anyway. And I hope we've all learned some lessons from this.
posted by languagehat at 2:22 PM on December 7, 2006
posted by languagehat at 2:22 PM on December 7, 2006
I don't disagree with languagehat and phearlez about changing the locks anyway, but wait a few weeks. If she's been careless with your key in the past, it's not going to make that much difference for the next few weeks, and it'll seem a whole lot less mean if you don't get her key back and then immediately change the locks. She's already proven to take things badly, why give her something else to take?
posted by jacquilynne at 3:08 PM on December 7, 2006
posted by jacquilynne at 3:08 PM on December 7, 2006
Wow! Excellent! I'm glad that this all got sorted out rationally. It so rarely happens.
posted by antifuse at 12:44 AM on December 8, 2006
posted by antifuse at 12:44 AM on December 8, 2006
Hi all, hopefully mine turns out well too. Do you all have advice? I dated this girl for like 4 years, and within about 7 months into the relationship we got a chocolate labrador, Shelby. I paid for the dog, picked the dog up, and paid for all of the dog's bills. The twist to this at the time is that I was just laid off and I had some pension and savings and 401k and unemployment checks coming in. She helped supplement my bills but she would write checks to them directly, not give me money in which turn I would use on the dog bills. The dog has been registered in my name this whole time up until this point, microchip in my name, etc. Now a bit ago we were having problems, and she had a rare opportunity to get some experience with a job position in another state. I agreed she could take the dog for company and protection. She came back after a year and never really moved back in, but gave the dog to me since she has no where to house it. That's now been a year too. She's staying with her mom/brother, whatever, or so she said. I have found out recently per her Myspace site that she's living with a guy and her Myspace title is even "future Mrs. (his last name here)" so I figure we're getting more and more distant and she's been lying. I have brought it up about only seeing her every 2 or 3 weeks and that even though I do I realize she's going through some medical issues and family death issues, that after a whole year now I'm wondering if she has other plans and it's not fair to me. She swears "I dont' have anybody else, how would I have time with my current medical situations, job, and worrying about loved ones that have passed"? She has used my other car this whole time, and has been telling me she stays 2 miles from work. The math added up to 150 miles per month.....I looked over the last 6 months from the odometer and she's put on 1500 a month for 7 months!! She's obviously going somewhere all the time, if she was so 'sick' and 'in bed' all the time it wouldn't have that many miles on it! I'm thinking at this time to tell her I know she has somebody, that she has been lying, and that she only comes and picks the dog up every couple months for a couple of days, so how could she care about it that much but lately she's been keeping the dog longer and longer each time. I'm thinking of pulling the car, keys back, have her get her stuff, and saying the dog is mine since I have another labrador that needs her while I'm at work all day. She never has the means to have the dog in a secure environment like my house, which I have been able to house the dog in over this 4 year period. She's just as much moved out in my mind so she should have mentioned taking the dog the whole time but I know I provide a better environment. There was another time where we got into a disagreement, and I said I didn't want to talk about it and that she should leave. She wouldn't, so I threated to call the cops if she didn't. She still stood there so as I picked up the phone she finally left, but the call had been made and they came out and told her to leave so I have that on record. I've contacted the state animal registration and let them know to put a flag in their system to only let myself under my signature, my name, my bank account to renew the license, and have the microchip through the vet the same way. Any ideas? I don't want her to up and take the dog, (I'll hafta change locks, etc).
posted by Shelb at 1:20 AM on March 30, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Shelb at 1:20 AM on March 30, 2007 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by matildaben at 3:53 PM on December 6, 2006