Don't call again

December 1, 2006 7:38 AM

How do I make phone scam company stop harassing us?

Back in the summer a new employee fell for a phone scam. Brief info: somebody called asking to confirm what model of printer we use. No mention of placing orders. Shortly after a box arrived with unrequested paper and printer ribbons and an invoice for over $200 (real value would be less than $50). After several phone calls to what turns out to be a fake company we realised we'd been scammed.

We're in Ontario, so called the RCMP Phonebusters hotline. They told us to send a letter stating our reasons for not accepting the products and giving them 30 days to collect the product or we would discard it. We did this. All was quiet for most of the fall, apart from the occasional copy of the invoice with increasing threats to involve their legal department.

The last 2 weeks they've called 1-2 times each day, sometimes threatening, other times trying to be reasonable. Per Phonebusters advice I just state that we will not pay and hang up.

How can I make them go away and stop calling us?

Phonebusters says they'll give up eventually (and I'm quite amazed personally at how much effort they're putting into this scam, but I'm not about to give in and pay the thing). They also suggest telling the scammers that we'll take them to small claims court for harrassment and time wasted. I haven't done this yet. Any other ideas?

posted by valleys to work & money (26 comments total)

Do you know if they always call from the same number? Can your phone company block that number?

You could also be more devious and record their calls then play them back for them the next time they call, or otherwise use sarcasm or levity to throw them off guard a bit.
posted by Burhanistan at 7:44 AM on December 1, 2006

This scam has been brought up before- it's not that uncommon.

Don't you have Caller ID? And why haven't you contacted the police?
posted by mkultra at 8:06 AM on December 1, 2006 [1 favorite]

mkultra, the "P" in RCMP stands for "police."
posted by Floydd at 8:10 AM on December 1, 2006

For non-Canadians: The RCMP are the police.
posted by mbrubeck at 8:10 AM on December 1, 2006

No - we don't have caller ID (small non-profit, cheap everything including basic phones and phone service).

However I have done the occasional *69 and the numbers they call from vary so paying Bell $5/month for call blocking would probably only be a temporary fix as they'd just call from a different number. (And besides my personal experience with Bell's call blocking is that - for technical reasons, they claim - they can only block about a third of numbers you might actually want to block so there's no guarantee that it would work anyway.)
posted by valleys at 8:17 AM on December 1, 2006

How about telling them that you've reported this scam to the RCMP?
posted by antifuse at 8:20 AM on December 1, 2006

antifuse - they just respond that "the RCMP has no authority in private business matters". I laugh at them and hang up.
posted by valleys at 8:23 AM on December 1, 2006

I think if I were as frustrated as you seem to be, I'd answer their call and say nothing but obscenities until they hang up. What are they gonna do? Call the RCMP (that "has no authority in private business matters") and say that they are being harrassed by someone they are harrassing?
posted by ilsa at 8:54 AM on December 1, 2006

"Hang on a minute." Then put the handset down and ignore it until you hear a dial tone out of it.

Keep doing that every time they call.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 8:59 AM on December 1, 2006 [1 favorite]

Is it a major hassle for you to do the paperwork to initiate a small clams case against them? I've had this problem in the US and I found that once I actually filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and Federal Trade Commisssion, the calls stopped.

In this case, simply filing the paperwork might be enough to convince them that you know your rights and are never going to pay.
posted by stefanie at 9:03 AM on December 1, 2006

To complain about unsolicited goods, contact your provincial or territorial consumer affairs office.
posted by jellicle at 9:21 AM on December 1, 2006

Ask them for an address and then bill them for your time and "space rental." This is what we did to get the folks who sent us stamp printers to stop calling. They threatened to take us to court and we told them to go ahead and file the papers.
posted by klangklangston at 9:38 AM on December 1, 2006

SCDB - I think I'm going to start doing that, because it amuses me that they're incurring all these phone charges with no hope of ever getting the money. ilsa - swearing at them would just raise my stress level and I'm trying to avoid that. I prefer the silent treatment!

jellicle - thanks for that link. I'll send them the same file I sent to Phonebusters.

klangklangston - interesting idea and similar to Phonebusters' suggestion that we tell them we'll take them to court.

Thanks all. More ideas welcome.
posted by valleys at 9:43 AM on December 1, 2006

Can you legally record the phone calls in Canada? if you can, I would start immediately.
posted by drstein at 10:36 AM on December 1, 2006

I wouldn't bother telling them you're going to take them to court. They hear it over and over again and know quite well that only a tiny percentage means it. Their business model resolves around the fact that the time it takes them to harass a person is notably smaller than the amount of time it takes that one person to make them stop.

Den Beste has one of the best ideas in that it consumes their time without consuming yours. However I think I'd say "Hold on, let me put [Fictional Name] on the phone - s/he's the person who would be responsible for cutting the check for that kind of thing." Then set the phone down and let them burn at least a few seconds waiting for the pickup that will never happen.

If you don't want to/can't consume the phone time that way just say "we are never going to pay you" and hang up. Never diverge from that script. When I was in sales the one lesson we were told before all others is that someone who is continuing to have a dialog with you is someone who has objections that need to be overcome, not someone who has refused to buy. After all, if they absolutely weren't going to buy, why would they still be talking to you?

Stop talking.
posted by phearlez at 11:09 AM on December 1, 2006

I would so buy an airhorn. Are there laws in Canada about deafening phone scammers? If not, I'd be keeping them on their toes. At least it'll relieve your frustration :)
posted by Moondoggie at 12:47 PM on December 1, 2006

Send the products back. Keep a record of the UPS or FedEx shipping info and proof of delivery. Don't mark it a return (so they don't refuse it) - maybe even mark it to the attention of someone you've talked to at the company.

Any time they call, just say random words in response to anything they say until they hang up. I remember hearing this working for telemarketers before the days of do-not-call lists. Your side of the next conversation could go like this: cabbage...matches...ice...coal...mango...bunny...ribbon...etc.

Or you could just ask them if their mother's know what they're doing for a living. My manager used that one on the same type of copier toner people.
posted by youngergirl44 at 12:49 PM on December 1, 2006

Bah - mothers, not mother's. I know better, I promise.
posted by youngergirl44 at 12:51 PM on December 1, 2006

I'd drop the dime to some websites, too, so that future people may not be scammed. The Consumerist has helped people with this before.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 12:55 PM on December 1, 2006

youngergirl44 - we sent a letter (from the Phonebusters website and based on advice from a friendly lawyer) giving them 30 days to pick up the products or tell us how to return them. The letter was signed for but they did not respond, so we tossed them out a couple of months ago. Much as random words would be fun I'm thinking the leaving- the-phone-on-the-desk approach would be easier and less stressful.

Mr. Gunn - thanks for the suggestion, I'll do that when I have time.
posted by valleys at 1:09 PM on December 1, 2006

You're engaged in a game with them, "game" used in the sense that a mathematician or economist uses the term.

Their strategy in the game is to keep hassling you so that you'll eventually decide to pay them off to make them leave you alone. They're trying to set up a situation where you'll make the rational decision that the expense of continuing to deal with them costs you more than simply paying their bill.

But doing that also costs them. Any approach to dealing with them that involves you trading your time for their time on a minute-for-minute basis, however, is a losing strategy for you because their business model is based on investing their time in making hassling calls like this, whereas it's keeping you from doing things you need to get done.

So you need a strategy which wastes their time without wasting yours. That's why the tactic I suggested is better than "random words" or the other approaches described here. Yes, leaving them hanging (say, on hold forever) also is amusing, but the point of it is that it costs them more than it costs you.

For you to win the game, you need to convince them that continuing to engage in the game will, in the long run, cost them more than any anticipated revenue from you will make up. Then it becomes a rational decision for them to give up and write you off, and cease hassling you.

Each move in the game by both sides is a calculated decision, a wager. Time is invested by both sides (and time is money). Each does so in anticipation that the investment will pay off for them. You can only win when your opponent in this game decides that each further move, each further incremental investment, is pointless because there's no chance of winning and getting paid off.

Leaving them hanging on hold is the best way to do that.

They may respond thusly: each time you put them on hold they will hang up and call you again. If so, just keep putting them on hold. It's still a loss for them; it takes them more time to hang up and redial you then it costs for you to put them on hold.

What you have to convince them of is that you're not going to give in. Talking to them and sounding determined will not do that because they know that each time they're costing you a lot of time (and money). If they become convinced that you've figured out how to avoid losing time and money in the game, then they will give up.

But it may take some time to convince them of that. So you have to be patient.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 2:04 PM on December 1, 2006 [1 favorite]

Seriously, the mounties handle this in Canada? Huh.

SCDB brings up very good points, let me add another- YOU ARE IN CONTROL, legally and financially. Scammers like these guys rely on tricking you into GIVING UP control by engaging them.

Don't enter into any conversations with them, period. All they're going to do is keep attempting to bully you, so why bother? Remember- YOU HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN from talking to them.
posted by mkultra at 4:13 PM on December 1, 2006

Just to get really nerdy: this is a negative-sum game. The longer the game goes on, the more everyone involved in it loses.

But each incremental move in the game by your opponent represents a small additional investment in hopes of redeeming prior losses. It's a case of "good money after bad" for them, but they will only do that as long as they think they still have a chance of winning and convincing you to pay them off. If they decide that won't happen, then that small incremental investment merely increases their overall loss in the game.

There are only two ways the game can end, and in both of them one side gives up and concedes to the other. You can end it by paying them. They can end it by giving up on you. If you refuse to pay (and I think that's the correct decision) then the only way out of the game for you is to convince them that they won't ever win, because you won't pay them.

As long as they think they are costing you significant time, money, and hassle with each significant move they make, they won't give up. So as MKultra says, don't ever talk to them again. No matter what you say, it will encourage them to keep the game going. The way for you to win is for them to become convinced that they no longer represent an intolerable burden on you. Then they no longer have a chance of winning, and continuing the game for them simply increases their losses.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 6:30 PM on December 1, 2006

Some of the tricks that my GF's family used to use for annoying marketers which you might be able to employ include:

1) Turn a radio/TV or some noisy device on and keep asking them to repeat their spiel because you can't hear them.

2) Pass the call to everyone in the office with each person telling them they have the wrong person and they will pass them onto the correct one.

3) As mentioned hold for annoyingly long periods of time.

4) Tell them that the person they need to speak to isn't available and ask for their contact details including mobile/cell phone.

5) Using your best automated phone voice, tell them that they need to go through a series of key presses to get to the right department and then hang up on them after about 10 different options.

As has been mentioned above, you need to make them realise that no matter how much time they waste they aren't going to beat you.
posted by mule at 4:37 AM on December 2, 2006

they just respond that "the RCMP has no authority in private business matters". I laugh at them and hang up.

Really? Awesome. My response to that would be "Ok then, how about you give me your address and I'll have them come over so you can let them know." :)

If you get bored of just leaving them on hold, I would totally start doing Arnie Sound Board calls with them. "I'm a cop you idiot!" and "Who is your daddy and what does he do?" is pretty tired in prank calls, but they're calling YOU to get this kind of abuse. I would find that quite satisfying... at least for a little while. Then I'd tape the calls and put them up on the internet, and make money off the google ads generated after it got Farked or boingboing'd :)
posted by antifuse at 3:27 AM on December 4, 2006

Follow up, in case anybody reads this in the future and is in a similar situation...

The calls kept coming for a short time after posting this question. I kept hanging up. They'd call back within minutes and try to tell me it's rude to hang up, but I hung up again the moment they said who it was.

The calls stopped about 10 days - 2 weeks after this. Then a short time after that, I read online that the RCMP had busted a large fraud outfit (40ish people) in Montreal, which is where our scam company was based. They were mainly targetting seniors in the US, but the reports also mentioned small businesses being 'sold' the supplies we were sent, as well as first aid kits. I'm assuming that the people arrested were the ones calling me. That makes me happy. One report: canada.com

Lessons learned ...
- instruct your staff to be careful about phone calls received. Be suspicious of unsolicited calls about any aspect of your business. Refer them to whoever normally does purchasing etc who will know what business relationships exist.
- Check all deliveries carefully. If we (actually the same person who took the original phone call) hadn't signed for the package this whole thing might not have happened.
- If you do get sucked into a scam like this, document everything. Every phone call, letter, everything. Inform your local police or fraud squad. In Canada, Phonebusters is awesome.
- We spent way too much time up front trying to return the products, reason with them etc. Don't do this. Write the letter saying you do not accept delivery. Give them 30 days to pick up the items or you will discard them. Send it registered, so they have to sign for it. Do not enter into any other communication. Hang up the phone whenever they call, or mess with their heads in any other way that gives you pleasure.

Scam companies target small businesses in many ways. We've had several phone calls regarding phony business directories. Also one call from somebody that wanted to 'confirm our listing in the phone book'. If I hadn't been through this earlier scam, I would have assumed it was Bell and probably ended up in a similar situation. As it was, a red flag went up, I asked for full details of who they were and what they were calling about and when it became apparent that it was another scam (or maybe the same people the got us the first time, as it was before the December arrests) I just stated that we did not have a business relationship with them (as they implied) and that we would not enter into a business relationship, then hung up.
posted by valleys at 1:06 PM on January 3, 2007