Advice for new web designer(?) webmonkey(?)
November 20, 2006 8:33 PM Subscribe
The unanswerable(?) questions about rates. RE: Web design, development, photography and the works. There is, of course:
And so, I've finally begun turning my hobby of tinkering with the internet into a cash flow. I have my first client's website all but hosted and now I'm being asked for a schedule of fees that can be handed out, by said client, to several new prospects.
I have no idea where to begin. I've tentatively set my base hourly rate, but that's as far as I can get because I haven't a clue as to how long each particular operation is going to take. I'm not even sure what to list (on the web site end of this, e.g. home page, additional pages)
For this last one; I did the photography, design, some writing, a bit of flash (most of which was scrapped anyway) and some fairly hefty e-mail forms with a touch of php. Should I be charging different rates for each?
I think the main problem I'm having is, while this last project turned out rather well, that I'm terrible at this whole art/design thing and so charging regular rates isn't really an option until I improve at it. So, in lieu of asking what rates are charged for this type of work, how do I find out how long each operation should take (we're talking about the basics here)? For example, mechanics have this type of guide for automotive repairs listed in (OK,I forget the name, it's a cd set or shop manual and dealers use one made by the mfr).
So, how the heck do I come up with quotes and pricing for additional items?
Any other advice is appreciated, I'm rather new to the business end of these things. (I do realize that much of this will be highly subjective)
And so, I've finally begun turning my hobby of tinkering with the internet into a cash flow. I have my first client's website all but hosted and now I'm being asked for a schedule of fees that can be handed out, by said client, to several new prospects.
I have no idea where to begin. I've tentatively set my base hourly rate, but that's as far as I can get because I haven't a clue as to how long each particular operation is going to take. I'm not even sure what to list (on the web site end of this, e.g. home page, additional pages)
For this last one; I did the photography, design, some writing, a bit of flash (most of which was scrapped anyway) and some fairly hefty e-mail forms with a touch of php. Should I be charging different rates for each?
I think the main problem I'm having is, while this last project turned out rather well, that I'm terrible at this whole art/design thing and so charging regular rates isn't really an option until I improve at it. So, in lieu of asking what rates are charged for this type of work, how do I find out how long each operation should take (we're talking about the basics here)? For example, mechanics have this type of guide for automotive repairs listed in (OK,I forget the name, it's a cd set or shop manual and dealers use one made by the mfr).
So, how the heck do I come up with quotes and pricing for additional items?
Any other advice is appreciated, I'm rather new to the business end of these things. (I do realize that much of this will be highly subjective)
Must you come up with one fixed price bid? See if you can simply quote for each project. Once you have a good handle on time estimates, you could entertain flat rates.
The key to quoting is to be very specific about the project scope and deliverables. That way, if you're asked to do something outside the scope, you can ask for more money. But do ask for more before you deliver. Also, break things down into milestones and give yourself an escape clause in the contract, so that you don't have to take a bath on the entire project.
How did you establish your hourly rate? If you click on the rates tag or search for consulting or consultant on AskMefi, you will find lots of posts related to this. My profile also has a link to an article on setting consulting fees (self-link).
posted by acoutu at 10:23 PM on November 20, 2006
The key to quoting is to be very specific about the project scope and deliverables. That way, if you're asked to do something outside the scope, you can ask for more money. But do ask for more before you deliver. Also, break things down into milestones and give yourself an escape clause in the contract, so that you don't have to take a bath on the entire project.
How did you establish your hourly rate? If you click on the rates tag or search for consulting or consultant on AskMefi, you will find lots of posts related to this. My profile also has a link to an article on setting consulting fees (self-link).
posted by acoutu at 10:23 PM on November 20, 2006
Response by poster: I actually guesstimated. Well, not entirely. There was a post somewhere that describes setting a rate , using a formula similar to what's on your blog. I used it, then took off just under half due to my inexperience and lack of a portfolio (there's just one entry in it). The reason I need an hourly rate is that I'm wary of being pestered to death on changes and little extras that aren't part of the usual fare without some recourse for payment. Essentially: things I can't forecast as being part of a particular project that will need to have some sort of standard rate I can point out and bill for. Perhaps including this in a contract (though I would much rather work without one). (It's thirty five $, for now).
Perhaps I'm going about this all wrong. Thing is, I need to have a generic quote for a site, say 15 pages for X dollars and then be able to add things like photography (if they're not doing it themselves) flash widgets, ect. It's mostly because these clients are all affiliated through the same main HQ corp. and that's what they're asking for, which is fine. The problem comes in when the individual admins begin to deviate from what is essentially the standard site I'm offering and it starts taking more work.
Pardon me if this is confusing, I'm rather confused myself.
posted by IronLizard at 12:18 AM on November 21, 2006
Perhaps I'm going about this all wrong. Thing is, I need to have a generic quote for a site, say 15 pages for X dollars and then be able to add things like photography (if they're not doing it themselves) flash widgets, ect. It's mostly because these clients are all affiliated through the same main HQ corp. and that's what they're asking for, which is fine. The problem comes in when the individual admins begin to deviate from what is essentially the standard site I'm offering and it starts taking more work.
Pardon me if this is confusing, I'm rather confused myself.
posted by IronLizard at 12:18 AM on November 21, 2006
I'm in exactly this industry, but run a 50-man company. My advice would be to differentiate yourself from what any other bedroom coder does (X-page website for $Y!) and offer a bespoke service. Value your time, and let your fees reflect that. The pressure is then to provide demonstrable value for money to the client.
I believe the danger in what you're suggesting is that you will essentially be offering a bespoke price anyway - flat rate plus extras. This will deviate from the fees you advertise (it doesn't matter how prominently you display the rates for extra features, clients will only ever remember the X-page website for $Y and then feel as though they've been stung with 'hidden' costs.
What you must do is refrain from providing any pricing, even as guidance, until you have a detailed handle on what exactly is required. This is because you will tell your client contact "Similar sites cost $X, but yours will be different because you want A, B and C". They'll tell their boss the site will cost about $X. When your invoice arrives at $Y, suddenly the relationship gets a bit frosty, and it is ALL about the relationship.
Get the facts, then provide an estimate. Revise the estimate as more information / requirements come to light and provide a quote with the contract.
Also, be sure to accurately measure your time for your projects so you will know in future what amounts of time to estimate.
In terms of rate setting, remember that you need a salary to live on - typically your overall business costs (including salary) will be three times that amount. Then remember you only have about 150 days per year to bill that amount (365 days per year, less weekends, holidays, sickness, training, selling time, admin time etc). If you are only utilised at a typical 70%, you then have only 105 days to bill to clients to cover your business costs.
So, 105 days * 8 hours * $35 per hour = $29,400. Is that enough? I would suggest your hourly rate needs to be more than double that.
posted by mooders at 12:38 AM on November 21, 2006
I believe the danger in what you're suggesting is that you will essentially be offering a bespoke price anyway - flat rate plus extras. This will deviate from the fees you advertise (it doesn't matter how prominently you display the rates for extra features, clients will only ever remember the X-page website for $Y and then feel as though they've been stung with 'hidden' costs.
What you must do is refrain from providing any pricing, even as guidance, until you have a detailed handle on what exactly is required. This is because you will tell your client contact "Similar sites cost $X, but yours will be different because you want A, B and C". They'll tell their boss the site will cost about $X. When your invoice arrives at $Y, suddenly the relationship gets a bit frosty, and it is ALL about the relationship.
Get the facts, then provide an estimate. Revise the estimate as more information / requirements come to light and provide a quote with the contract.
Also, be sure to accurately measure your time for your projects so you will know in future what amounts of time to estimate.
In terms of rate setting, remember that you need a salary to live on - typically your overall business costs (including salary) will be three times that amount. Then remember you only have about 150 days per year to bill that amount (365 days per year, less weekends, holidays, sickness, training, selling time, admin time etc). If you are only utilised at a typical 70%, you then have only 105 days to bill to clients to cover your business costs.
So, 105 days * 8 hours * $35 per hour = $29,400. Is that enough? I would suggest your hourly rate needs to be more than double that.
posted by mooders at 12:38 AM on November 21, 2006
I'm in Canada, where price fixing is illegal but defined differently than in the US. However, I suggest we stick to the processes for setting prices, as opposed to recommending a course of action for a specific industry or arriving at a price.
If you're using a salary to help derive your rate, you shouldn't need to discount. The salary should have already reflected your inexperience.
posted by acoutu at 8:39 AM on November 21, 2006
If you're using a salary to help derive your rate, you shouldn't need to discount. The salary should have already reflected your inexperience.
posted by acoutu at 8:39 AM on November 21, 2006
Response by poster: Beware pricefixing.
That's a disturbing link. It also explains much, thank you.
posted by IronLizard at 10:26 AM on November 21, 2006
That's a disturbing link. It also explains much, thank you.
posted by IronLizard at 10:26 AM on November 21, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
I just recently dealt with a Flash design company and he had many different rates - depending on the task/activity required; programming, animation, layout, interactivity, etc.
However, he was sub-contracting out most of those items - so his rates were dependent on others.
Honestly - the thing is to be reasonably flexible without taking a bath while you are starting out, then once you have the portfolio of client references - boom, your rate structure can be more rigid.
posted by jkaczor at 9:08 PM on November 20, 2006