Help me cut through the hype on proteins
November 17, 2006 7:54 AM Subscribe
Is it possible to gain substantial muscle mass while weightlifting on a vegan diet?
I'm not a meat eater. Don't like the taste, don't like the texture. Same goes for eggs and most milk products. I throw a little fish in the mix occasionally, but it's usually vegan, vegan all the way down.
I can't help thinking that a daily dose of protein powder would build additional mass, largely because of the hype on websites.
Has anybody upped their protein substantially -- via powders, meat or fish -- and seen a measurable gain in muscle mass that can be correlated with it?
Conversely, can vegans who mix'n'match nuts and whole grains to obtain complete proteins gain the same mass, in the long run, as their carnivorous bretheren, assuming they're dedicated to protein-watching?
I'm not a meat eater. Don't like the taste, don't like the texture. Same goes for eggs and most milk products. I throw a little fish in the mix occasionally, but it's usually vegan, vegan all the way down.
I can't help thinking that a daily dose of protein powder would build additional mass, largely because of the hype on websites.
Has anybody upped their protein substantially -- via powders, meat or fish -- and seen a measurable gain in muscle mass that can be correlated with it?
Conversely, can vegans who mix'n'match nuts and whole grains to obtain complete proteins gain the same mass, in the long run, as their carnivorous bretheren, assuming they're dedicated to protein-watching?
teishu beat me to google i see...
there are quite a few vegan bodybuilders who write extensively about nutrition and weightlifting. my brother is decidedly not vegan, but he still follows alot of their suggestions.
robert cheeke is probably the biggest name in vegan bodybuilding.
posted by kendrak at 8:07 AM on November 17, 2006
there are quite a few vegan bodybuilders who write extensively about nutrition and weightlifting. my brother is decidedly not vegan, but he still follows alot of their suggestions.
robert cheeke is probably the biggest name in vegan bodybuilding.
posted by kendrak at 8:07 AM on November 17, 2006
My husband is vegan and very much into weight-lifting, though not quite to the degree where he'd be considered a body-builder. Still, he is able to put on significant muscle mass and is in much better shape than his friends (we're in our twenties).
As with any regimen, it's all about discipline. He likes soy protein powders and has a shake or two a day, depending on how much protein he gets from his other meals. (The nutrition counter at fitday helps a lot there.) He has also used creatine with good results, but it's my understanding that it can only be used intermittently, and he's not entirely sure it was the creatine itself and not the extra discipline and workouts he imposed on himself while he was using it that gave him the results.
My impression of the whole thing is that while animal proteins may be more "efficient" for putting on muscle mass, it's mostly sticking to a training regimen and watching your overall nutrition -- including lots of lean protein, no matter what type -- that are going to make the big differences.
posted by AV at 9:27 AM on November 17, 2006
As with any regimen, it's all about discipline. He likes soy protein powders and has a shake or two a day, depending on how much protein he gets from his other meals. (The nutrition counter at fitday helps a lot there.) He has also used creatine with good results, but it's my understanding that it can only be used intermittently, and he's not entirely sure it was the creatine itself and not the extra discipline and workouts he imposed on himself while he was using it that gave him the results.
My impression of the whole thing is that while animal proteins may be more "efficient" for putting on muscle mass, it's mostly sticking to a training regimen and watching your overall nutrition -- including lots of lean protein, no matter what type -- that are going to make the big differences.
posted by AV at 9:27 AM on November 17, 2006
The key is just getting enough complete protiens. Beyond the amount your body can use, the rest is just extra calories as far as it's concerned. So getting too little will certainly stunt muscle growth, getting more than enough won't increase it.
The protein powders are complete proteins as far as I know, and as a vegan, I'm sure you know all about that. I've seen talk about 50g being at the high end of necessary (if I remember the number correctly). This (fairly junky) website recommends up to 63g of protein.
If you up that by a bit, to account for actively using the protein for muscle mass, you'll be good without overdoing it.
Note: I am not a nutritionist, but I've done research into this area (to the extent of googling, and talking with a nutritionist)
posted by cschneid at 9:33 AM on November 17, 2006
The protein powders are complete proteins as far as I know, and as a vegan, I'm sure you know all about that. I've seen talk about 50g being at the high end of necessary (if I remember the number correctly). This (fairly junky) website recommends up to 63g of protein.
If you up that by a bit, to account for actively using the protein for muscle mass, you'll be good without overdoing it.
Note: I am not a nutritionist, but I've done research into this area (to the extent of googling, and talking with a nutritionist)
posted by cschneid at 9:33 AM on November 17, 2006
and it's not so much the daily amount, but the timing and the composition. A protein shake after a workout is far better than a protein shake in between meals. Of course, the guys at t-nation find soy protein to be inferior to whey.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 9:37 AM on November 17, 2006
posted by Mr. Gunn at 9:37 AM on November 17, 2006
veganfitness is a very friendly forum with vegan bodybuilders and other active vegans. The vegan protein powder of choice there seems to be pea protein.
By mix 'n matching nuts and grains you are not getting much protein. Do eat beans every day (soy counts as beans as well) and make sure to eat lots of greens.
posted by davar at 11:05 AM on November 17, 2006
By mix 'n matching nuts and grains you are not getting much protein. Do eat beans every day (soy counts as beans as well) and make sure to eat lots of greens.
posted by davar at 11:05 AM on November 17, 2006
I was vegan/vegetarian for several years (8?) and worked out during that time -- when I added meat to my diet (and dramatically upped my protein intake via animal protein) I had substanstial muscle mass gains and was able to more quickly increase the amount of weight i was lifting, compared to the time when I was vegetarian.
Whether or not this was due to a change in workout habits, eating habits, bias confirmation, or something else is hard to tell, because I've never kept really good records. But my anecdotal experience says that it's *easier* to get the kind of protein you need to build mass when you're using animal products -- however, as you see above, i'm sure you'll find many people (experts included) think you can make similar gains without animal products -- you just might have to plan your diet more carefully.
i'm not a nutrionist by any means, but I'd go protein powder over the nuts, because you'll be able to consume more protein in one sitting with less fat content. Nuts are a pretty awesome snack though.
posted by fishfucker at 11:07 AM on November 17, 2006
Whether or not this was due to a change in workout habits, eating habits, bias confirmation, or something else is hard to tell, because I've never kept really good records. But my anecdotal experience says that it's *easier* to get the kind of protein you need to build mass when you're using animal products -- however, as you see above, i'm sure you'll find many people (experts included) think you can make similar gains without animal products -- you just might have to plan your diet more carefully.
i'm not a nutrionist by any means, but I'd go protein powder over the nuts, because you'll be able to consume more protein in one sitting with less fat content. Nuts are a pretty awesome snack though.
posted by fishfucker at 11:07 AM on November 17, 2006
also learn about the joys of seitan.
posted by fishfucker at 11:07 AM on November 17, 2006
posted by fishfucker at 11:07 AM on November 17, 2006
I haven't checked the links others have posted but you can find protein powders made from hemp in most natural food stores. I can't vouch for how well it will put on muscle mass (from my understanding hemp is between whey [most available protein] and soy [least of the three] as bio-available protein in powder form).
posted by iurodivii at 11:38 AM on November 17, 2006
posted by iurodivii at 11:38 AM on November 17, 2006
I'm going to go out on a limb and be the naysayer. Can you have positive results at a gym without meat? Sure.
Can you have substantial gain in muscle mass without meat? I doubt it. (My substantial and your's might vary).
Even looking at that veganbodybuilders site. There's going to be a couple of freaks that can do it. But some are probably sauced.
posted by bitdamaged at 11:57 AM on November 17, 2006
Can you have substantial gain in muscle mass without meat? I doubt it. (My substantial and your's might vary).
Even looking at that veganbodybuilders site. There's going to be a couple of freaks that can do it. But some are probably sauced.
posted by bitdamaged at 11:57 AM on November 17, 2006
You should check out a personal trainer named Mike Mahler. He is a vegan, and is a pretty big, built dude, and conveniently-he's written on veganism/vegetarianism and being an athlete. The articles are found on his 'articles' page, near the bottom.
posted by HighTechUnderpants at 1:19 PM on November 17, 2006
posted by HighTechUnderpants at 1:19 PM on November 17, 2006
you just might have to plan your diet more carefully.
This is true, reading the original question. Grains and nuts really are not going to cut it. But I would like to emphasize that this careful planning is a stage. After a while, you will get used to it. I now eat a diet that is radically different from the diet of everybody I know, but I do not feel I have to carefully plan anything. Do not be afraid that you will have to plan your meals with a calculator for the rest of your life.
I do not recommend overdoing soy, but unless you have a specific reason why you cannot eat soy, I do recommend adding tempeh to your diet. It is a great way to eat soy in whole form. And find ways to eat beans. An interesting idea I recently heard was to add white beans to fruit smoothies.
Also: realize that the total protein content of the day is important. If you eat lots of sugary products or extracted oils, which have no protein at all, you will have to eat more concentrated proteins to make up for that. In other words: if your goal is to eat 20% protein, you can eat 50% of foods with 0% protein and 50% foods with 40% protein, or you can eat 100% of foods with 20% protein (I hope that wasn't too confusing). You should watch your whole diet, not just add a protein source to an unhealthy diet. If your goal is to maximize protein intake, it makes sense to minimize sugar and oil intake.
posted by davar at 3:51 PM on November 17, 2006
This is true, reading the original question. Grains and nuts really are not going to cut it. But I would like to emphasize that this careful planning is a stage. After a while, you will get used to it. I now eat a diet that is radically different from the diet of everybody I know, but I do not feel I have to carefully plan anything. Do not be afraid that you will have to plan your meals with a calculator for the rest of your life.
I do not recommend overdoing soy, but unless you have a specific reason why you cannot eat soy, I do recommend adding tempeh to your diet. It is a great way to eat soy in whole form. And find ways to eat beans. An interesting idea I recently heard was to add white beans to fruit smoothies.
Also: realize that the total protein content of the day is important. If you eat lots of sugary products or extracted oils, which have no protein at all, you will have to eat more concentrated proteins to make up for that. In other words: if your goal is to eat 20% protein, you can eat 50% of foods with 0% protein and 50% foods with 40% protein, or you can eat 100% of foods with 20% protein (I hope that wasn't too confusing). You should watch your whole diet, not just add a protein source to an unhealthy diet. If your goal is to maximize protein intake, it makes sense to minimize sugar and oil intake.
posted by davar at 3:51 PM on November 17, 2006
I don't understand why, if you don't have an ethical reason for being vegan (which it doesn't sound like you do), you wouldn't just use whey protein powder. In my experience it is no more or less gross than soy protein powder, and soy has the questionable effects of the plant estrogens to be considered.
You do need more than the 50/63g/day mentioned about, though, if you're looking to gain/maintain muscle.
posted by ch1x0r at 4:55 PM on November 17, 2006
You do need more than the 50/63g/day mentioned about, though, if you're looking to gain/maintain muscle.
posted by ch1x0r at 4:55 PM on November 17, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
veganbodybuilding.com
little article with sample meal plans here
there are a good number of vegan bodybuilders. you just need to come at it with the right info if you want to be serious about it.
(disclaimer: both sites were fast googles, i've read a lot of articles about vegan fitness, but google was a lot faster and i can't vouch for the 100% greatness of either site)
posted by teishu at 8:01 AM on November 17, 2006