Is the idea of an afterlife universal?
November 14, 2006 12:20 AM Subscribe
Is there now, or has there ever been, a culture that did not include the concept of an afterlife?
Over a discussion of Mary Roach's book 'Spook' one member of my book club asserted that there has never been a culture that didn't include the concept of an afterlife. I find this really hard to believe, but my google skills have failed me.
Has there ever been a culture with or without other religious beliefs that did not involve an afterlife? I wouldn't consider Marxist Russia an example because it was government enforced rather than the will of the people. I'm looking for something more concrete than "Athiests".
Over a discussion of Mary Roach's book 'Spook' one member of my book club asserted that there has never been a culture that didn't include the concept of an afterlife. I find this really hard to believe, but my google skills have failed me.
Has there ever been a culture with or without other religious beliefs that did not involve an afterlife? I wouldn't consider Marxist Russia an example because it was government enforced rather than the will of the people. I'm looking for something more concrete than "Athiests".
Do you mean "afterlife" in the sense of "something, really, anything, happening to the 'soul' (or whatever you want to call it) post-mortem" (accounting, then, for reincarnation and/or nirvana and/or whatever)? Or do you mean afterlife in the (relatively narrow) sense of "heaven/hell/elysium/valhallah"?
If you mean it in the first sense, I can't answer the question except to say that I can't think of a single one.
If you mean it in the second, I'd say, duh, Buddhism.
posted by maxreax at 12:37 AM on November 14, 2006
If you mean it in the first sense, I can't answer the question except to say that I can't think of a single one.
If you mean it in the second, I'd say, duh, Buddhism.
posted by maxreax at 12:37 AM on November 14, 2006
Epicurianists
Some Jews
Some Unitarians
Taoists believe that death is the end of being and the begining of non-being.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:47 AM on November 14, 2006
Some Jews
Some Unitarians
Taoists believe that death is the end of being and the begining of non-being.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:47 AM on November 14, 2006
Jehovah's Witnesses kinda.
"Death is a state of non-existence" for all but 144,000 out of how many people who have ever walked or will walk this planet.
I don't know how accurate that whole article is (I never do when it comes to wikipedia) but one of my friends who is a JW has mentioned that belief in passing, before.
posted by moonshine at 12:49 AM on November 14, 2006
"Death is a state of non-existence" for all but 144,000 out of how many people who have ever walked or will walk this planet.
I don't know how accurate that whole article is (I never do when it comes to wikipedia) but one of my friends who is a JW has mentioned that belief in passing, before.
posted by moonshine at 12:49 AM on November 14, 2006
sort of an aside: Jehovah's Witnesses definitely believe in an afterlife, they just think they'll be living on earth after their resurrection for eternity. They think the 144,000 will be the ones to go to heaven to establish a heavenly kingdom with Jesus.
posted by lynda at 3:41 AM on November 14, 2006
posted by lynda at 3:41 AM on November 14, 2006
The great and powerful Wikipedia has led me to the ancient Hebrew concept of Sheol. I wouldn't call that much of an afterlife.
posted by muddgirl at 5:38 AM on November 14, 2006
posted by muddgirl at 5:38 AM on November 14, 2006
It seems like, with your provisons that we need a better answer than "athiests" or "Marxists", you are basically asking for a traditional / historical culture and want to rule out the many instances of cultures that have moved beyond religion in recent / modern times.
I've spent a few moments hunting around just now, and statistics like those on this page suggest that there are a number of important cultures in existence today that do not believe in an afterlife - notably modern-day Denmark, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia. In a larger sense I would say that much of Scandanavia, many parts of post-communist Europe, and some parts of western Europe are moving in this direction.
But again, my apologies, as this seems like it is not the answer you are looking for.
posted by Brave New Meatbomb at 6:59 AM on November 14, 2006
I've spent a few moments hunting around just now, and statistics like those on this page suggest that there are a number of important cultures in existence today that do not believe in an afterlife - notably modern-day Denmark, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia. In a larger sense I would say that much of Scandanavia, many parts of post-communist Europe, and some parts of western Europe are moving in this direction.
But again, my apologies, as this seems like it is not the answer you are looking for.
posted by Brave New Meatbomb at 6:59 AM on November 14, 2006
Yeah, Jews. They don't really believe in an afterlife, or at least their opinions are very very mixed (throughout the different streams and throughout history).
"Ha olam Ha'ba" (translates as "The world to come") is not a real thing that Jews think that the Jewish souls will live in. It's more of a "at the end of the rainbow" kind of thing -- infinitely far off. There are some prayers that say things like "[God]... gives the dead everlasting life," but this too is not considered to be *real* everlasting life, but instead something softer, like, "will be remembered by everyone". Note: I'm not a religious Jew, so the answers I've gotten from rabbis have been only on the reconstructionist-conservative-liberal side. But I am pretty sure that religious Jews also don't have a concept of heaven or a spiritual afterlfe.
posted by zpousman at 7:02 AM on November 14, 2006
"Ha olam Ha'ba" (translates as "The world to come") is not a real thing that Jews think that the Jewish souls will live in. It's more of a "at the end of the rainbow" kind of thing -- infinitely far off. There are some prayers that say things like "[God]... gives the dead everlasting life," but this too is not considered to be *real* everlasting life, but instead something softer, like, "will be remembered by everyone". Note: I'm not a religious Jew, so the answers I've gotten from rabbis have been only on the reconstructionist-conservative-liberal side. But I am pretty sure that religious Jews also don't have a concept of heaven or a spiritual afterlfe.
posted by zpousman at 7:02 AM on November 14, 2006
Existentialism had it's own cultural movement in the 50s and 60s, and it was (in part) predicated on the idea that belief in an afterlife was destructive and limiting to self-betterment.
posted by cowbellemoo at 7:20 AM on November 14, 2006
posted by cowbellemoo at 7:20 AM on November 14, 2006
A culture that didn't have some beliefs in an afterlife? Probably not going to find one. Cultures can consist of many religions, some of which do not believe in an afterlife.
posted by deep_sea_diving_suit at 7:42 AM on November 14, 2006
posted by deep_sea_diving_suit at 7:42 AM on November 14, 2006
atheist
posted by ludwig_van at 9:17 AM on November 14, 2006
posted by ludwig_van at 9:17 AM on November 14, 2006
To my knowledge (and per my current Hinduism professor), the Aryans (or rather the Proto Indo-Europeans, to avoid using an outdated title) did not maintain any belief in an "afterlife" before invading India. Prior to their invasion of that region, they were a nomadic people. Their value system was primarily hedonistic (drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die yada yada yada), as their future was uncertain, and they lived day-by-day.
However, this changed dramatically with various shifts made in their politico-socio-economic order. After they invading the Indus Valley region, settling down, and establishing themselves as agriculturists, a governing body was needed. The establishment of this centralized power had a profound impact on their outlook on life, which moved from optimistic to pessimistic. This shift possibly results of:
• Previously acquainted with a nomadic life, these people, having now settled down, were no longer able to move away from things they didn’t like.
• With power now centralized, Kings hired soldiers to collect money from the people to set up states. Here, power/gov’t has become more and more remote from the common people (whereas they once had immediate access to the heads of the community while living together in a nomadic fashion). Despair arises.
As a result of their dissatisfaction with their current mode of life, they adopted the belief of reincarnation, and in the possibility of breaking the chain of samsara in order to achieve moksha (ideas which are indigenous to SE Asia). It is also thought that this newly held belief in an afterlife was picked up circa 1000 BCE, after these Proto Indo-Europeans came into contact with the Austro-Asiatic peoples of what is now Northern India.
On another (side)note, though I thoroughly enjoyed reading Mary Roach's Stiff, I am pretty disappointed in Spook (despite it being very humorously written). I suppose a lot of talking about the afterlife must be rumination, by virtue of the nature of the concept, but I still feel as though she didn't research her topic deeply enough. (However, in order to prevent any snark: no, I don't think she should have died in order to gain a good grasp on the afterlife.)
Just sayin'.
posted by numinous at 10:04 AM on November 14, 2006
However, this changed dramatically with various shifts made in their politico-socio-economic order. After they invading the Indus Valley region, settling down, and establishing themselves as agriculturists, a governing body was needed. The establishment of this centralized power had a profound impact on their outlook on life, which moved from optimistic to pessimistic. This shift possibly results of:
• Previously acquainted with a nomadic life, these people, having now settled down, were no longer able to move away from things they didn’t like.
• With power now centralized, Kings hired soldiers to collect money from the people to set up states. Here, power/gov’t has become more and more remote from the common people (whereas they once had immediate access to the heads of the community while living together in a nomadic fashion). Despair arises.
As a result of their dissatisfaction with their current mode of life, they adopted the belief of reincarnation, and in the possibility of breaking the chain of samsara in order to achieve moksha (ideas which are indigenous to SE Asia). It is also thought that this newly held belief in an afterlife was picked up circa 1000 BCE, after these Proto Indo-Europeans came into contact with the Austro-Asiatic peoples of what is now Northern India.
On another (side)note, though I thoroughly enjoyed reading Mary Roach's Stiff, I am pretty disappointed in Spook (despite it being very humorously written). I suppose a lot of talking about the afterlife must be rumination, by virtue of the nature of the concept, but I still feel as though she didn't research her topic deeply enough. (However, in order to prevent any snark: no, I don't think she should have died in order to gain a good grasp on the afterlife.)
Just sayin'.
posted by numinous at 10:04 AM on November 14, 2006
The question of "What happens to us after we die?" is a fundamentally unanswerable one, and one that has been ubiquitous throughout history. You can argue that some people have essentially recognized that they're cubing the square with pencil and compass, and dodged it. There are (or were) Christian sects that believed that the Kingdom of God was going to be one created on earth, and that the goal was to work toward making that possible, but once people were dead they were dead. (This crops up in Hobbes' Leviathan).
But looking at it from a political view gives us the likely answer that it is unlikely that any tribe or contiguous ancient culture ever existed without at least some positing a view of the afterlife, because a view of the afterlife is one of the most powerful motivators ever, even allowing people to be ordered to a violent death.
There were certainly ancient Greeks who believed that once you were dead, that was it, kaput. But they're not representative of the greater culture, who still dug Homer.
posted by klangklangston at 10:07 AM on November 14, 2006
But looking at it from a political view gives us the likely answer that it is unlikely that any tribe or contiguous ancient culture ever existed without at least some positing a view of the afterlife, because a view of the afterlife is one of the most powerful motivators ever, even allowing people to be ordered to a violent death.
There were certainly ancient Greeks who believed that once you were dead, that was it, kaput. But they're not representative of the greater culture, who still dug Homer.
posted by klangklangston at 10:07 AM on November 14, 2006
Response by poster: Thank you all for your varied takes on my question. I apologize for being somewhat vague. That was the first meeting he's attended, so I am unfamiliar with him and his beliefs. I appreciate that people have given me many different approaches.
numinous: Agreed, after loving 'Stiff' I was disappointed with 'Spook'.
posted by obol at 12:52 PM on November 14, 2006
numinous: Agreed, after loving 'Stiff' I was disappointed with 'Spook'.
posted by obol at 12:52 PM on November 14, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by pompomtom at 12:32 AM on November 14, 2006 [1 favorite]