EPL < Bundesliga < Serie A < SuperLiga < MLS?

November 12, 2006 3:48 PM

How do the world's professional soccer leagues rank, generally, and where does MLS stand?

I've been unable to find a ranking of leagues, or even a discussion, via the Google except a few highly opinionated and unsubstantiated discussion board threads.

Is MLS thought to rank alongside, say, Turkey's league? Israel's?

Are any attempts at comparison futile?

posted by ibmcginty to sports, hobbies, & recreation (20 comments total)

I don't think any serious comparison has been made. It may be that FIFA has some kind of a comparison system, on which they base their world-cup seedings, but that would relate only to national strength, not league strength - a league will contain many foreign players. I don't think attempts at comparison would be futile; I suppose a system could be devised. It's a job for someone.
posted by londongeezer at 4:17 PM on November 12, 2006

I would consider MLS alongside the Championship in England - even favorably. As a matter of fact, I would match DC United against, say, Sheffield Utd or Watford and find them equals.

As far as the Turkish league goes, there is no team in MLS that compares to Galatasaray or Fenerbache, but from top to bottom MLS definately can compete at or above the Turkish league level.

EPL > La Liga > Serie A > Bundesliga > MLS as far as your analogy goes, but MLS > Turkish League, Belgian League, Norwegian League, Denmark League, etc.
posted by Keane at 4:18 PM on November 12, 2006

A poll on the strongest leagues in the world, 2005. I don't think there is an official ranking but you can take a look at the FIFA country ranking as a judge.

The MLS is nowhere near the English Championship in terms of quality or revenue. It depends on your criteria but IIRC the Championship is the 10th richest league in the world, and the only non top flight league to feature in the top 10 rich list.

Players struggle in the Scottish league and leave to play in the MLS and are paid a kings ransom, which kind of sums it up. There are probably less than a handful of players in the MLS who could make it at a top European side.
posted by fire&wings at 4:59 PM on November 12, 2006

Here's my basic breakdown, contingent on breakdown of talent as well as strategy utilized:

1. La Liga- I think they hold the largest amount of talent and the best "teams" in the world, in terms of depth
2. EPL- A close second, but they really dipped from a 4 team elite (Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal, Liverpool) to a 3 team (with the exclusion of Liverpool which seems to be self-imploding)
3. Series A- Italy's league is chock-full of talent, but an ethics scandal and a mass exportation has led the league to a situation of turmoil. Many of their teams play with a lacking sense of quality football and more flair/verve.
4. Bundesliga- Lots of foreign nationals, excellent physicality but somewhat dull pace. Still, the league lacks the extra level of talent, so you see a lot of "solid" players shine here and a lot of extraordinary players leaving...
5. Brazil- Excellent amount of talented players, but they often lack solid direction and most of their most venerable talent eventually ends up in Europe
6. France- A few quality teams (PSV, Bordeaux) but a real lack of depth.
7. Portugal/Eastern Europe/Argentina/MLS- I think the MLS plays with the right mindset (discipline and strategy) but lacks the level of talent to execute anything spectacular. Portugal has a few decent teams as does E. EU. Argentina doesn't hold its national talent but Boca and River Plate are always solid teams...

Champions Leage/Gold Cup/ Copa America etc are always great gauges for league strength. Hopefully in a few years, we'll see MLS getting into the Champions league/Gold Cup mix (HOPEFULLY) and they can begin to really climb up the ladder. However, it will be tough for the league to hold its own talent instead of letting it flee to other markets unless the US market makes a conscious effort to support the league...
posted by stratastar at 5:20 PM on November 12, 2006

I've generally heard it compared to the Championship, although the salaries are really low compared to the Championship. League minimum in the MLS is $25K; I believe it's about twice that in the Championship (though obviously in sterling, not in dollars).

There are probably less than a handful of players in the MLS who could make it at a top European side.

I'm not sure about that. The Premiership has a number of Americans, and nearly all of them started in the MLS. The Bundesliga has quite a few as well.

This year the MLS All-Star Team beat a somewhat depleted Chelsea in a friendly. That would suggest that there are 11 players in the MLS that can play with a world-class club, even if Joe Cole was on the sidelines early.
posted by dw at 5:26 PM on November 12, 2006

And I think, too, that the MLS serves to feed the national team first, European clubs second. They play a lot of young (for the US) players (early 20s) and not a lot of foreign imports.

The new "Beckham exception" will likely change that, though it might also destroy the league. Signing all those big over-the-hill stars to huge contracts doomed the NASL.
posted by dw at 5:32 PM on November 12, 2006

This year the MLS All-Star Team beat a somewhat depleted Chelsea in a friendly. That would suggest that there are 11 players in the MLS that can play with a world-class club, even if Joe Cole was on the sidelines early.

This is not a valid interpretation of talent levels. Although I don't think you're attempting to make the stretch of saying Chelsea were bested by greater talent, I'll try and elaborate on the situation:

MLS has a nice array of talented players, undoubtedly. It's best player are probably Landon Donovan, Eddie Johnson, Christian Gomez, Taylor Twellman, Brian Ching etc...

Very few of these players play at a level that would be symptomatic of a top-teir European club team. I don't doubt their abilities, but when you play in a league of mediocrity, you really don't grow. This is why the best talent from all across the world always makes the move to Europe (e.g. the plethora of Brazillians, Argentines, African internationals who all play for Europe).

Take Donovan's case for example. Unequivocally the best player in the league, made a move to the Bundesliga and somewhat flopped. Many questioned his mental toughness not necessarily his talent. He decided to return to LA to "be with his family" rather than paving the way for future American athletes to play on the world's stage.

Look at the European interest in these players as well. McBride plays for a teir-2 level team in the EPL, Reyna has been an integral midfielder in Bayern for quite some time, but there isn't much beyond that. Chelsea has made an offer for Adu simply because his percieved upside for his young age, but most of these MLS players are not getting big tender offers from big money...

Given the US' poor performance in the last world cup, the MLS hit a bit of a roadbump, but if it can continue to cultivate some top-level athletes in American schools (instead of loosing them to bigger market sports such as Football and Basketball), it can continue to feed itself (because we do have a pool of talent within the population). If it does that and the American public takes interest, we can continue to grow our talent vertically.

But for now, the best MLS teams are on par with delegation teams in any of the big leagues. That doesn't mean they cant squeak a win out against a big boy once in a while, it just means they cant compete over an aggergate season...
posted by stratastar at 5:40 PM on November 12, 2006

The MLS is nowhere near the English Championship in terms of quality or revenue. It depends on your criteria but IIRC the Championship is the 10th richest league in the world, and the only non top flight league to feature in the top 10 rich list.

I wouldn't take revenue vs. expendetures into consideration, since a good number of Championship sides are in severe financial distress (How many are in imminent danger? I know Sheffield Wednesday is, Leeds used to be). As far as attendance goes, MLS is within 2,000 of the average attendance of the Championship - amazing, really, in a country where soccer is the sixth sport basically versus a league that boasts the Saints, LUFC and other very well supported sides. As far as quality, that's all opinions, and I would beg to differ. Give me a Real Salt Lake and Jeff Cunningham against a Southend United any day of the week.

Players struggle in the Scottish league and leave to play in the MLS and are paid a kings ransom, which kind of sums it up. There are probably less than a handful of players in the MLS who could make it at a top European side.

Are we comparing quality or the stupidity and/or naiveté of certain MLS GMs? With your SPL comparison you may be referring to Peter Canero of the NYRB - you're right, he was paid a Kings Ransom, but also couldn't even remotely compete in the RESERVE DIVISION, let alone MLS.

As a counterpoint, allow me to bring up the likes of Simon Elliott - a bit player in MLS who battled for a place in the side of the worst squad in MLS, who stepped into a place at one of the middle third EPL sides and garnered rave reviews until his injury last season. There is talent to be found everywhere.
posted by Keane at 5:57 PM on November 12, 2006

I'm not sure about that. The Premiership has a number of Americans, and nearly all of them started in the MLS. The Bundesliga has quite a few as well.

True, but I can't think of any Americans shining at the top level. America is probably on a level with Bulgaria, Denmark, Poland and the like when it comes to players in the big leagues. There are maybe 2 or 3 spread between the lower clubs and sometimes one that might feature in a top side. But never a player of outstanding quality.
posted by fire&wings at 5:58 PM on November 12, 2006

True, but I can't think of any Americans shining at the top level. America is probably on a level with Bulgaria, Denmark, Poland and the like when it comes to players in the big leagues. There are maybe 2 or 3 spread between the lower clubs and sometimes one that might feature in a top side. But never a player of outstanding quality.

I'm sorry, but if you don't think that Brad Friedel is among the top keepers in the EPL you are off your rocker. I won't even get into Kasey Keller being about the sole reason for 'gladbach's success over the last two seasons.

Jay Demerit was MVP of Watford's playoff against Leeds, Brian McBride was MVP of Fulham last season, Tim Howard was EPL keeper of the year 2 seasons ago and along with Andy Johnson is the reason that Everton has returned to prominence, Reading's record-setting year last season was driven by Hahnemann and Convey, Reyna is captain at Man City, Rossi is starting to come up big at Newcastle... the list goes on and on and on....
posted by Keane at 6:11 PM on November 12, 2006

This is not a valid interpretation of talent levels.

Then how about this:
If you took the 22 best players in the MLS, made them one team, and dropped them in the English leagues, they would settle in as a mid-table team in the Premiership.

Take Donovan's case for example. Unequivocally the best player in the league, made a move to the Bundesliga and somewhat flopped. Many questioned his mental toughness not necessarily his talent. He decided to return to LA to "be with his family" rather than paving the way for future American athletes to play on the world's stage.

But Donovan is a flake, and everyone knows that. He didn't flop because he couldn't play, he flopped because he wouldn't play. Meanwhile, a gaggle of other Americans have made an impact in England, France, the Netherlands, and Germany. Keane has a pretty good rundown of who is playing where right now (though he left out Beasley on loan at City, though he's currently injured). Donovan's lack of impact four years ago is now pretty much irrelevant.

Look at the European interest in these players as well. McBride plays for a teir-2 level team in the EPL, Reyna has been an integral midfielder in Bayern for quite some time, but there isn't much beyond that.

Hahnemann? Convey? Howard? And even though he's 175 years old now, Kasey Keller is still starting in the Bundesliga after his years bouncing around the Premiership.

Chelsea has made an offer for Adu simply because his percieved upside for his young age, but most of these MLS players are not getting big tender offers from big money...

I think there are a number of reasons for this -- the best American sports talent going to baseball/basketball/football, the MLS attitude towards transfers (give us money but we want to be picky about where a player goes), and a general disdain for American soccer.

But there just aren't that many spots open on the top ten teams in the world, either. And honestly, we only have one player right now who looks to be competing for one of those positions -- Adu. But we have plenty of American players swimming in the EPL. Not a top-flight nation, but definitely producing players for Europe.
posted by dw at 7:39 PM on November 12, 2006

the best American sports talent going to baseball/basketball/football

Along those lines, I heard the Kobe Bryant grew up playing the game in his youth in Italy...could you imagine what someone with his size and athleticness could have brought to the pitch?
posted by mmascolino at 8:19 PM on November 12, 2006

There is an official ranking of European leagues, which is used to determine how many clubs from each country qualify for the European Champions League. It's based on previous performance in the CL. Wikipedia has an explanation and a copy of the ranking. It shows Spain, Italy, England, France and Germany to be the top European leagues. I think most fans would agree on those leagues, if not the exact order.

I'm inclined to think that the MLS would not bear comparison with any of these leagues, but that's difficult to argue because I haven't seen many MLS games. It's based more on looking at which countries are successful internationally, and in which leagues their players play.

Jay Demerit was MVP of Watford's playoff against Leeds, Brian McBride was MVP of Fulham last season, Tim Howard was EPL keeper of the year 2 seasons ago and along with Andy Johnson is the reason that Everton has returned to prominence, Reading's record-setting year last season was driven by Hahnemann and Convey, Reyna is captain at Man City, Rossi is starting to come up big at Newcastle... the list goes on and on and on....

These examples really prove the point that there aren't many quality American players in the Premiership.

Rossi? Firstly, he's Italian, secondly he's barely played for Newcastle in the Premiership (2 starts, 4 late appearances as a sub, no goals).
McBride? Best player at Fulham? The expression 'damned with faint praise' comes to mind here. The same goes for Demerit and the Reading players - having a great season in the Championship is not really a major achievement.
Howard's having a good season, though he's too error-prone, and Friedal's a good goalkeeper, maybe one of the five best in the Premiership (Lehman, Given, Van der Sar, Cech are all better).

There are only two American players on the books of the teams that finished 1-6 in last season's Premiership, and that includes Howard, who would be 3rd or 4th choice keeper at Man Utd and will be released on a free transfer at the end of this season.
posted by Infinite Jest at 1:57 AM on November 13, 2006

It's just one data point, but there is a good analysis of the MLS all stars win over Chelsea here. There is a good bit in there about the significance of the win for the MLS. Relevant quote from Jimmy Conrad:

"More than anything, it's about winning over the American fan who's a World Cup fan. I think games like this show that the perceived gap between MLS — or American soccer — and European soccer is closing. We have players who can compete."

I've been a US Soccer fan and an MLS fan for a long time. One thing that I have noticed is that there is ALWAYS an excuse for any American soccer success against their perceived betters in the soccer world. In this case, the excuse is that Chelsea were tired and unfit. Boo hoo I say. They were outplayed and they lost. Plain and simple.
posted by Otis at 7:17 AM on November 13, 2006

Rossi? Firstly, he's Italian, secondly he's barely played for Newcastle in the Premiership (2 starts, 4 late appearances as a sub, no goals). McBride? Best player at Fulham? The expression 'damned with faint praise' comes to mind here. The same goes for Demerit and the Reading players - having a great season in the Championship is not really a major achievement. Howard's having a good season, though he's too error-prone, and Friedal's a good goalkeeper, maybe one of the five best in the Premiership (Lehman, Given, Van der Sar, Cech are all better).

Rossi is from Italy? So that's what we're calling New Jersey now? And as far as McBride being the best player at Fulham, he's not, but he was the MVP of a midtable side that is currently 3 points out of a European spot. And since people are talking about the Championship being worlds better than MLS, I would venture to say that Marcus and Bobby's performance in Reading's record breaking season last year (as well as getting their promoted squad to within a point of the top half in the EPL) is certainly worth mentioning.

And I would take Friedel over all listed except for Cech (and Cudicini), but that's just personal preference. The insinuation that Shay Given is better is really over the top though - however, arguments can certainly be made for the rest.

There are only two American players on the books of the teams that finished 1-6 in last season's Premiership, and that includes Howard, who would be 3rd or 4th choice keeper at Man Utd and will be released on a free transfer at the end of this season.

Actim rates him 4th best keeper in the premiership at this point, you honestly think that Sir Alex would let him go for free?
posted by Keane at 7:20 AM on November 13, 2006

I can't speak for how good the MLS is as a league but I can speak for the quality of the players. When we start talking about ex-MLS players the premiership team that has to be mentioned is Fulham. Which is fine by me as I'm a die-hard Fulham fan. Brian McBride has been excellent (every time he comes on the pitch Fulham fans sing the 'Brian McBride' song so he's a true Fulham hero) and Carlos Bocanegra has been great and is becoming a very useful utility player. Simon Elliot was ok, but he got injured. There will be more and more MLS players coming to the premiership especially for the smaller teams (thanks Keane for pointing out Fulham's current position in the premiership!) for the following reasons: they're cheap, they're good, they're professional (those four years of college make a difference!) and they're keen. So I would say that there is a big pool of talent in the MLS. Who knows what'll happen to that and to the MLS as a whole when (and I think it is a case of 'when') Beckham goes to LA...
posted by ob at 8:34 AM on November 13, 2006

OK, just to clarify, Guiseppe Rossi is from NJ but is an Italian international. I had to go to both the Newcastle and the Man U websites to check on that (I feel the need to clean my browser). I could have just looked here.
posted by ob at 8:40 AM on November 13, 2006

mmascolino: BIll Simmons, american sports pundit, wrote about this a while ago--he predicted Shawn Marion would be the best Keeper ever, Iverson an amazing striker... damn. the article is 'insider.'

I'd venture that any athletically gifted person could be good at any sport, given enough practice, but the analogue between basketball and soccer(football) are closest--Steve Nash has changed the game by thinking of passing and player movement in basketball like soccer.

back to the topic at hand, I'd say the easiest gauge of a league's 'strength' would be financial indicators--presence of a salary cap, average salary, average team budget, etc. of course, this doesn't say much about whether these expensive teams will play well, or beat cheaper teams game to game, but it is an indicator of general support, market size inter alia.

The MLS, in my humble opinion, won't be much of a league until there's more diversity in franchise ownership, less league supervision in trades and salary control, and a playoff system that either makes sense, or doesn't exist. my $.02
posted by markovitch at 8:52 AM on November 13, 2006

Thanks, folks, for a terrific discussion and a few great links in response to my question. Every answer could be marked as best, except for the few little asides which have all been worthwhile too.

It sounds from the discussion here like, if there's a consensus, the MLS is in the second tier, per stratastar's first comment and general discussion. Of course we could argue forever about how it ranks vs. any given individual league. Fire&wings's link doesn't list the US in the top 25, but it's not obvious to me that Peru, Paraguay, and Bulgaria have better leagues than MLS; plus that list includes "Schweiz," which we all know isn't even a place.

Here's a recent discussion of Americans in the EPL.

I'll have to Google around for info on MLS's financial situation. I'm dimly aware that there's a lot of collusion and that the league office has an awful lot of say in where people go. The MLS cup was aired yesterday afternoon opposite American football. Usually you'd expect to see infomercials or a made-for-TV movie from 20 years ago opposite football; I don't see how MLS can be pulling in that much TV money.
posted by ibmcginty at 10:44 AM on November 13, 2006

Hi Keane:

Rossi: born in New Jersey, Italian citizen, refused offers to consider playing for the USA, because he wants to play for Italy. Played his entire career in Italy or England. I don't think the USA can claim him.
Friedal: I agree he's good, but no way is he better than Van der Sar.
Howard: also good (though not great). I am convinced that Ferguson will let him go on a free. Why? The same thing happened with Barthez, Bosnich and (God help us) Taibi. All signed to be the first choice keeper. All fell out of favour. All let go on a free. It's not so much a judgment on his ability, more on SAF's approach. (Though if Howard was really so good, SAF would bring him back to United, and he won't - Ben Foster is going to come back when Van der Sar retires). As a United fan, I'd rather we got some money for him, but I truly think he will go on a free.
Championship: point taken. Personally, I'd put the MLS above the Championship, so we agree there.

Otis: I'm sorry, but the result of a pre-season friendly is really irrelevant. Pre-season games are little more than extended training matches, they are not played at full pace or intensity.
posted by Infinite Jest at 2:06 PM on November 13, 2006