How is a reasonable person supposed to deal with the Italian Consulate?

November 1, 2006 8:02 AM

How is a reasonable person supposed to deal with the Italian Consulate?

My (US Citizen) girlfriend is doing a one-year graduate program in Italy. She needs to get a student visa to study there (in fact, the school seems to require them). [snipping out months of complications with the Consulate here]. So she went to the Italian Consulate last week to get her Visa with all of her other stuff in order ('other stuff' literally involving wax stamps and seals) and they told her it was no problem, except she didn't have proof with her that she was a New York Resident. Ah, one tiny detail. So she dutifully goes back with a gas bill or something and now they tell her that there is absolutely no way they can issue this visa because her undergrad experience is not appropriate. Wtf? Then they said, "If it was a four-year program, sure, but a one-year program, no." (Bear in mind this whole conversation is actually being conducted in Spanish, the only language both parties are strong in). Then they said, "Maybe at one of the other US cities' Italian Consulates, but not this one. We'd never let that fly in the Consolato Generale di New York City!"

Now, I have a couple questions:

• This just doesn't make any sense at all. Could it possibly be the case that if she had taken different undergrad courses they'd have stapled the requisite baroque slip of paper to her passport? If she was in San Francisco? This is absurd.


• Is this this guy's way of demanding a bribe or something and we are just thick? Seriously, should she be passing $100 bills through that dumb slot with her passport?


• Is there anyway to make these people get their heads out of their asses and issue the damn visa, save violence?

posted by jeb to travel & transportation (25 comments total)

My dealings with the US Consulate were always fairly similar, just the details of the "proof" required at any one time differ. Similarly my better half's dealings with the Irish Consulate. That's the way these scumbagse are, regardless of nationality.

As an EU citizen I've never dealt with the Italian consulate in particular, but our approach was always to be dogged and keep going back with more/different pieces of paper. Maybe he's right, maybe going to a different consulate will work?
posted by jamesonandwater at 8:35 AM on November 1, 2006

Jesus, didn't you learn anything from The Trial? The more she struggles to get her visa, the closer she comes to death.

But seriously, this makes no sense. If you go back on another day, there is a chance you'll get a different person helping you (and thus different requirements). That's all I've got.
posted by beerbajay at 8:35 AM on November 1, 2006

1) Call the school. Is it an American program? Is it an Italian program that has ties to an American university?

Every foreigner that goes to Italy is required to get a Schengen visa and then register at the Questura (local police station) of the place where you are staying. (That comes later.)
From my previous and current experiences with the consulate di Los Angeles, having everything in the precise exact order that they want is crucial. (See if you might just be able to start over, this time with a letter from the school saying she's already been accepted and is qualified to enter Italy as a student. )

Failing that, IANAL but you might talk to one that deals with the Italian consulate often enough to make it worth your while. I would start by chatting with a large university's department of Italian language or Italian Studies, depending on what they call it.
posted by lilithim at 8:36 AM on November 1, 2006

I've heard similar stories of NYC consulates being more difficult than those in other cities, and speaking less English as well! Guess they think we can handle it here.

I think the next step is back with the school that has accepted her for this graduate program with her (questionable?) undergraduate experience. They need to write a fancy letter for the consulate attesting to her qualifications, which you'll present on your next visit. You need to keep coming up with reasons to go in, new documentation to present, and eventually they'll probably give in. Consulates like making people do busy work and grovel, generally.
posted by Doctor Barnett at 8:37 AM on November 1, 2006

Last time I checked, they won't do anything by mail, so trying a different consulate may be right out.
posted by lilithim at 8:37 AM on November 1, 2006

Immigration-related agencies are often absurd, and local consulates and embassies often have substantial discretion to set their own affairs and their own standards of evidence. This is also true, to a lesser extent, of individual immigration and diplomatic officers.

It is very common for a practice that is accepted at one embassy or consulate to be forbidden at another of the same nation's consulates, or for one to habitually require more substantial evidence than another for the same visa, or for one individual office to be stricter or just plain nastier than another.

Most consulates and embassies also do not give the slightest fuck what the foreigners who come to them with petitions think about them or the way they run their operation. If you think it's absurd, tough shit -- they don't work for you, they work for the Republic of Italy.

Your girlfriend should contact the program she's supposed to be entering and see what they suggest.

She should also expect a nontrivial probability that she will be unable to take this course in Italy, and start making backup plans.

It would be unlikely that she would be able to use a different consulate unless she has some credible claim of residence in an area served by a different one.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:40 AM on November 1, 2006

I have not been in your specific situation, but I have been in a lot of situations involving intercultural stubbornness. Here's my suggestion:

Your girlfriend needs to go back, this time taking someone with her who was born in Italy. The two Italians need to look each other in the eye and converse in their native language. The bullshit factor will decrease by orders of magnitude.
posted by bingo at 8:40 AM on November 1, 2006

or for one individual office to be stricter or just plain nastier than another

officer not office
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:41 AM on November 1, 2006

As far as I know, this is not limited to the diplomatic service. I remember an article in the newspaper a few years ago about the difficulty of reforms in the "most Byzantine public service in Europe"*

If the various former Soviet consulates I've visited are anything to go by, you could try again with a different person, or just go elsewhere. These people are accountable to almost nobody, least of all foreign citizens, and practices do vary from consulate to consulate.

_{*possibly not a real quote}
posted by claudius at 8:44 AM on November 1, 2006

dude, the US are just as asinine. when I went to the US embassy in berlin to get my first visa back in '98, two guys in flatjackets pointed shotguns at me. this in a country where there are pretty much no guns. it took them eight weeks to get a stamp with my picture into it and try to talk to anyone ... they won't even pick up the phone.

apply for a o-1 visa here and your paperwork, which costs around 5,000 bucks to prepare, go to some anonymous person in kentucky. you can't talk to them at all. even if you pay another $1,000 for 'premium processing,' not knowing whether you have met the burdon of proof makes it the most awful week you will ever live through - I was not allowed to work, not allowed to leave the country, not allowed to do anything (and back then I didn't have the funds to keep myself occupied, I couldn't even pay to get my car reparied after that experience). they did approve me in the end though acronyms like INS or BCIS make me want to hurt a bunny.

foreigners are being treated like crap everywhere but japan, it seems. the italians are no different.
posted by krautland at 8:44 AM on November 1, 2006

Welcome to the world of Italian red tape. My advice in general is:

1. attempt to find a native Italian speaker to come along to the embassy with your girlfriend.


2. Said native speaker should ask for a written list of currently required documents and photocopies. If there's not a pre-printed list, have the worker drone with whom you are speaking to write it down. The honey before vinegar approach is reccomended, but should vinegar be neccessary, your native Italian speaker will most likely be more effective at applying said vinegar.


3. Ask if this set of required docs will be changing any time soon. Note that you probably won't get an answer or the worker drone won't know/couldn't care less, but you want this documented as well.


4. Document with whom you have just spoken. First name, last name, date.


5. Gather docs


6. Return to embassy with native speaker. Present your docs as such: "I wish to apply for a student visa. Here are Docs X,Y, and Z per the requirements given to me and [NATIVE SPEAKER] on [DATE] by [WORKER DRONE]."


7. Find out the requirements have changed. Return to step 2

Basically, an Italian national will help cut through some of the bullshit, and documenting who you spoke with and what they said can help. Be prepared for a long line of tape though.
posted by romakimmy at 8:53 AM on November 1, 2006 [1 favorite]

Hey-- just to be clear, I'm sure the US consulate is just as bad. In fact, someone from her program told her theres a sort of Consulatory Asshat Arms Race going on between the US and Italian, and that the US decided to make life hell for Italian students studying in the US, so this is all basically retaliation for that. To wit, at one point in this process, she had to get a notarized letter from something at the Governor of Maine's office. Anyway, I put the Italian thing in case there some italo-specific strategies to employ.
posted by jeb at 9:01 AM on November 1, 2006

This totally happened to people I know heading to Fabrica dealing with the exact same consulate in NYC. If I remember correctly the South African and Canadian ended up getting their visas in their countries when they went back for vacations, the American was lucky enough to also have a Thai passport and so flew all the way to Southeast Asia (a thousand dollar plane ticket!) to get a visa there.

Yes, it's absurd, but if it means anything the US embassy is equally absurd in other countries. Just keep going back with more paper, maybe try and deal with other people there. Get a letter from the school attesting that her previous body of work and experience is both excellent and totally appropriate for their program; rejection on that regard seems like it was someone's personal whim—completely par for the course when dealing with consulates . If you can manage it, have someone at the school call or write the consulate directly to help expedite the process; whether that means lodging a complaint, sweet-talking or just plain calling in a favor, I can't really say.
posted by lia at 9:07 AM on November 1, 2006

Or what other have said. I should really start using preview.

I also forgot:

- Take many, many deep breaths. ITR (Italian Red Tape) is an exercise in maintaining your zen-like calm. Become frustrated with the worker drones and you will be more likely to have your chain yanked/application shoved to the bottom of the pile.

- Don't even think about muttering anything about 'bribes' within earshot of the drone. Leave it to your native speaking buddy to suss out if this is actually the case, with the subtlety and aplomb that only natives can call to hand. Blustering on about bribes will A) insult the honest worker drone: see above chain yanking or B) result in an inflated price for the foreign asshole. Option A is more likely.

On preview: An apostille notarises the notary. It says "This notary is legit." They're common in my experience of docs and IRT.
posted by romakimmy at 9:13 AM on November 1, 2006

In my experience in Italy, Italians love red tape more than an American could ever believe. Having to visit offices over and over, with new forms notarized and filled out in triplicate, is really par for the course. Don't assume they're singling her out, don't assume you need to start stonewalling or bribing. Just keep bringing in more paperwork. And more paperwork. And more paperwork. Any piece of paper she has that looks official and is even marginally related to the process, she should bring in. The more paperwork you have, and the more signatures and seals and emblems on that paperwork, the more official you will look and, in my experience, the more likely they will be to help.
posted by occhiblu at 10:13 AM on November 1, 2006

I second what occhiblu said. Preemptively flood them with papers until they can ask no more.

And though this is not the answer to your question, but be rest assured that US consulate has its own equally assinine anal-retentive methods in foreign countries. And we are not talking student visas with no reference/bkground (terrorist!) or some random dad wanting to visit his son in US (terrorist!).. We are talking ten+ year experience tech workers working for world-famous bluechip US-based tech companies having multiple visa stamps all over their passports from assload of countries, including those whose flags and currencies you've never bothered to look up in Wikipedia. We are talking this guy wanting a 15-day visit visas. And if that tape doesn't make your blood go red, to bring in an extra dose of rage against the man/system, imagine the person already having visited US multiple times, for different periods in past several years. This is not some hypothetical person but a close friend of mine. And we are talking Indian. Not some citizen belonging to "rogue states" falling under "axis of evil".
And let me tell you, the harrasment there is not just for paperwork. Paperwork sure. But it's some more levels beyond that. in case of my friend, they went on to question his family details, what his brother is studying and why his brother didn't study engineering like him and opted for Arts. They go on to question the details of the specific technical business proposal or the customer-engagement he's going in for, even though they understand jackshit about technology. Once just to 'test' them, he even totally bullshitted his way out by talking some gibberish on Lisp/Haskel, though he knows nothing more than the name of these programming langs and his real reason for travelling was way different and cleraly spelled out in the visa application. Over a period of years this friend has devised his own method of "working" up the visa officer, and his favorite embassy locations(Delhi/Calcutta).

From my mutiple experience I can attest to it, though thankfully my experience has been much better relatively. Personally I've seen people entering visa office already wearing company badges around their necks (ofcourse along with a tie and some cases a blazer in blistering 40 deg C/104 F), to 'prove' their formal company credentials. It is that bad and ridiculous.

And it's not just because of 9/11. Some of that anality in US embassy has been present ever since, though I must admit 9/11 changed everything and took it up to a whole new level of assholism.

So this is just to let you know that it's not just the Italians, but embassy red tape in general. Maybe all embassies act the same way more or less just because they feel that they have the _power_ with no one to answer to. They are not responsible to jackshits like you and me. Better abuse that power than let it go waste.
posted by forwebsites at 11:26 AM on November 1, 2006

Considering that most foreign students in most countries pay a premium to attend the college may be more than willing to help. Plus, they may have a Graduate Students Body that may help or offer advise.
posted by zaphod at 12:08 PM on November 1, 2006

krautland,
I think you have the wrong about foreigners in Japan. The experience you linked to is typical of Western foreigners in Japan (kind of), but ask a Korean or Chinese about their treatment by the Japanese and you will get a much different answer.

My Japanese teacher in High School said that while she was teaching in the JET programme in Japan, an american friend of hers had someone mail him marijuana. He was put into prison in a cell with yakuza members and still hadn't seen a lawyer 2 years later (when she told me the story).
posted by matkline at 1:50 PM on November 1, 2006

Thanks so much everyone for your help. I started going through to mark best answers but they were all awesome, even the ones that were basically just commiserating, so please consider yourselves all best-answered.
posted by jeb at 3:12 PM on November 1, 2006

I pretty much got this trying to get into university in France — the consulate was demanding I produce a certificate that did not in fact exist — and what broke through for me was knowing someone who knew the vice-president of the university in question. A word was said (or a fax appeared) in the appropriate quarter and the obstacles instantly melted. Can you get someone at the Italian institution to manage something similar? I'm sorry to say it, but this has everything to do with power and status and getting some of that on your side.
posted by Wolof at 3:31 PM on November 1, 2006

If she was in San Francisco? This is absurd.

yeah, the NYC consulate is notoriously bad. most NYC consulates, regardless of nationality, tend to be worse than the same nation's other US consulates, I don't know why, but it's true


She should also expect a nontrivial probability that she will be unable to take this course in Italy, and start making backup plans.

sadly, yes. it's good advice. try to ask her school to pressure the consulate -- not that they care a lot, but it's better than nothing.

if bad shit goes down, try to figure out if the school will accept her even without a visa. she can enter legally as a tourist (90 days), stay the extra nine months (no trips back), exit as an illegal and deal with the consequuences later (difficulty to re-enter the country for a while, ask an immigration lawyer)



Welcome to the world of Italian red tape.

yeah, the guineas are bad like that, aren't we? try to talk to some non-USian who had to deal with US immigration authorities/consulates instead. dealing with US authorities, there's no red tape whatsoever, everybody's kind, helpful, understanding, always ready to bend the rules just a little in the name of common sense. really.
posted by matteo at 3:48 PM on November 1, 2006

What you said makes perfect sense, and I'm also supporting the claims that the NYC Italian Consulate is extremely horrid. I've dealt with them in the past, and it became an exhausting process. They basically invent their own rules that don't apply to any other Italian Consulate in the USA. They are very discriminate with handing-out visas, while other Consulates around the USA (and the rest of the world) just don't care.

Your options?

Make back-up plans because they basically already told your GF that they are not going to grant her a visa. Try again, but be prepared for a definite "no"

She can go 'illegally' if the school doesn't care about a visa, and just overstay her 3-month visit. LOADS of people do this (Americans, too) but i'm not necessarily advocating.

Also tell her: if she does get her visa, or does decide to go to Italy regardless and stay illegally, she still will need to take care of some forms here. Dealing with her 'permesso di soggiorno' at the local questura will make her experience with the NYC Consulate look like a birthday party. So if the NYC Consulate's bureaucracy gets you down, you might want to reconsider the decision.

Btw: that 'bribing' comment you made was really off-base. and so offensively unnecessary.
posted by naxosaxur at 5:27 PM on November 1, 2006

Be greatful he's not telling her to sit on his lap while he does paperwork. This happened to a girlfriend of a Friend of mine while she was applying to the Italian consolate in LA.

Now, (if worst comes to worst) is it possible for her to go without a visa? Meaning, act as if she is a tourist, leave the country on a weekend trip once a month or so, and thus be within the guidelines? I know many, many people who have gotten through Study Abroad sessions in various countries with this technique.
posted by piratebowling at 6:44 PM on November 1, 2006

Now, (if worst comes to worst) is it possible for her to go without a visa? Meaning, act as if she is a tourist, leave the country on a weekend trip once a month or so, and thus be within the guidelines?

piratebowling, i'm sorry, but isn't this totally erroneous information? If she goes to Italy without a Visa, and then leaves Italy anytime after three months (90 days is the official, invisible "tourist visa"), she will be barred from re-entering Italy for the minimum of another three months (and will also have to deal with some serious penalties). Because last I checked, that's immigration law, so I have no idea what "friends" led you to believe that their method worked.
posted by naxosaxur at 6:47 AM on November 2, 2006

That's what I did when I lived in Italy for a little more than a year, in 1998-1999. It's possible the laws have changed since then, and it's quite possible that it wasn't close to legal when I did it, but it certainly has been done in the past. Not only were there no penalties, there was no one checking passports at the border; there was no record of my leaving or re-entering the country during that year.
posted by occhiblu at 8:29 AM on November 2, 2006