What to do when you can't stand a friend's spouse.
October 29, 2006 9:55 AM Subscribe
I have a long time friend (25+ years) who has a spouse I absolutely cannot stand. The spouse is a bore to end all bores. The problem is, since marrying the person (10 years ago), I have not once seen the person without the spouse. I dislike the spouse so much that I now avoid the friend. Advice?
I know it seems childish and I should just put up with the chosen spouse, but the person is mind-numbingly stupid/ignorant/obnoxious/verbose. Two weeks ago I was at an event with these people and we were sitting at a table with a half dozen other people, all of whom I wanted to speak with (renowned authors/thinkers and visiting professors from Princeton & Rutgers). Three hours later I hadn't spoken to any of these people because I was seated next to the spouse. This has happened over a dozen times at such events in the past few years. Even when the spouse is not seated next to me, they come to find me. I can't avoid the person, much as I try.
I now want to say, "Look, I'm not going to attend any future events that this person is at as it's all very frustrating", but at the same time, I would like to spend time with my friend. Also, all but 2 of my friend's other friends have already bailed because of the spouse.
I've emailed with my friend before to say, though not in these exact words, "I don't understand what you're doing with this person" but the response is just "I know no one else likes my mate but... it's love."
Though I love that my friend's found someone, at the same time they used to be an outgoing, smart, artistic, creative person. Now? Because everyone hates the spouse and they're inseperable, the friend is a depressed, introverted, and practically friendless individual who seems to be relying on their "rock" as they've but the friend doesn't want to accept that the "rock" is the reason everyone's hiding!
Ugh. I have no idea what to do or say or how to say it.
I know it seems childish and I should just put up with the chosen spouse, but the person is mind-numbingly stupid/ignorant/obnoxious/verbose. Two weeks ago I was at an event with these people and we were sitting at a table with a half dozen other people, all of whom I wanted to speak with (renowned authors/thinkers and visiting professors from Princeton & Rutgers). Three hours later I hadn't spoken to any of these people because I was seated next to the spouse. This has happened over a dozen times at such events in the past few years. Even when the spouse is not seated next to me, they come to find me. I can't avoid the person, much as I try.
I now want to say, "Look, I'm not going to attend any future events that this person is at as it's all very frustrating", but at the same time, I would like to spend time with my friend. Also, all but 2 of my friend's other friends have already bailed because of the spouse.
I've emailed with my friend before to say, though not in these exact words, "I don't understand what you're doing with this person" but the response is just "I know no one else likes my mate but... it's love."
Though I love that my friend's found someone, at the same time they used to be an outgoing, smart, artistic, creative person. Now? Because everyone hates the spouse and they're inseperable, the friend is a depressed, introverted, and practically friendless individual who seems to be relying on their "rock" as they've but the friend doesn't want to accept that the "rock" is the reason everyone's hiding!
Ugh. I have no idea what to do or say or how to say it.
Response by poster: Unfortunately, the friend lives a fair distance away (hours), so it's an ordeal to get together, and always on the friend's part as I don't drive. I once asked the friend to dinner as one-on-one (under the pretense of getting advice on a project I was working on) but when they arrived, spouse was with them! Even though spouse had no knowledge (being the existence) of the project.
I seriously am starting to think the spouse will not let the friend leave he house alone but have no idea how to ask that without insulting the friend or the spouse.
posted by Manhasset at 10:04 AM on October 29, 2006
I seriously am starting to think the spouse will not let the friend leave he house alone but have no idea how to ask that without insulting the friend or the spouse.
posted by Manhasset at 10:04 AM on October 29, 2006
Can you suggest to your friend that you have a "girl's night/guy's night/just us night" (make it clear that this is not to alienate or exclude the spouse, just an opportunity to spend some time together as the old friends you are)? I'd have a problem with a friend who was joined at the hip to their spouse even if I DID like the spouse. You could try to have a heart to heart, but odds are that your friend isn't going to hear what you're saying as anything other than yet another attack on their mate. You have to accept that your friend loves their spouse, it's not your relationship, you don't have a say in it, and persisting in trying to tell them that they're wrong about loving this person is doomed. I would try to arrange a "just us" night on a regular basis, and avoid discussing the spouse in anything other than respectful, but detached ways.
If your friend simply won't go anywhere or do anything without their spouse then I suggest you either do your best to maintain the friendship as-is or just stop trying and put your efforts elsewhere. You can't change it if your friend has decided they're surgically grafted to their mate. You have my sympathies, I've been in almost this exact situation and lost a long-term friend over it, but sometimes it's just a situation that has no easy resolution, people make the choices they make.
posted by biscotti at 10:07 AM on October 29, 2006
If your friend simply won't go anywhere or do anything without their spouse then I suggest you either do your best to maintain the friendship as-is or just stop trying and put your efforts elsewhere. You can't change it if your friend has decided they're surgically grafted to their mate. You have my sympathies, I've been in almost this exact situation and lost a long-term friend over it, but sometimes it's just a situation that has no easy resolution, people make the choices they make.
posted by biscotti at 10:07 AM on October 29, 2006
I feel your pain. I tried, "Gosh, I feel like we haven't had any 'just us' time forever. Like back in the old days?" That seemed to work. I think I threw in some nice comments about the husband while still emphasizing that I wanted girl time.
posted by ruff at 10:14 AM on October 29, 2006
posted by ruff at 10:14 AM on October 29, 2006
My strategy is to bring a date myself, someone designated to "take the bullet" for me. As it turns out, my usual date gets a kick out of engaging with the spousal bore/boor in my group, so as long as I bring him, the annoying fellow is taken care of.
Alternatively: invite her to go shopping and to lunch with you. Maybe there's an outfit you need to find for a particular occasion? Particularly if you can take public transport to a shopping area closer to her home base. Maybe she dislikes driving alone and that's why partly why she brings the spouse?
One last possibilitity is that maybe she resists being alone with friends now because she doesn't want to have to defend her life choices. If you can get her alone, make it really painless and non-confrontational the whole time for awhile, so she knows there's nothing to be afraid of.
posted by xo at 10:26 AM on October 29, 2006
Alternatively: invite her to go shopping and to lunch with you. Maybe there's an outfit you need to find for a particular occasion? Particularly if you can take public transport to a shopping area closer to her home base. Maybe she dislikes driving alone and that's why partly why she brings the spouse?
One last possibilitity is that maybe she resists being alone with friends now because she doesn't want to have to defend her life choices. If you can get her alone, make it really painless and non-confrontational the whole time for awhile, so she knows there's nothing to be afraid of.
posted by xo at 10:26 AM on October 29, 2006
Best answer: This may be an unpopular answer, but I think you need to learn to put up with the spouse or lose the friend.
Granted, not everyone is like me, but if I'm even remotely typical -- and if you and I were friends -- you'd have to deal with the fact that my wife is "part of me." She and I don't do everything together, but she is a very important part of my life. I don't think I could be friends with someone who (obviously) didn't like her or didn't want to include her. It's not that I think someone who likes me SHOULD like my wife. It's just that my wife and I are so wrapped up in each other's lives, it wouldn't be practical for me to carry on a friendship that didn't involve her.
Given that I feel this way, I approach other people this way. If a friend of mine gets in a relationship, I figure I have to accept and embrace his/her S.O. or reject the whole friendship. In may experience, getting in-between spouses or ignoring someone's S.O. just leads to pain for all involved.
Here's how I think of it: what would you do if your friend suddenly became a racist? The spouse is like this -- an ugly wart that has grown on your friend's personality. But the wart is part of the friend.
Certainly, I don't think it's your job to help your friend see that she's made a bad choice. That way also lies trouble. You have to respect that she's an adult and must make her own bed and lie in it.
Luckily for me, this is not the case, but if everyone hated my wife and being with her lost me all my friends, I would still stay with her, and I wouldn't appreciate you trying to talk me out of it.
posted by grumblebee at 10:31 AM on October 29, 2006
Granted, not everyone is like me, but if I'm even remotely typical -- and if you and I were friends -- you'd have to deal with the fact that my wife is "part of me." She and I don't do everything together, but she is a very important part of my life. I don't think I could be friends with someone who (obviously) didn't like her or didn't want to include her. It's not that I think someone who likes me SHOULD like my wife. It's just that my wife and I are so wrapped up in each other's lives, it wouldn't be practical for me to carry on a friendship that didn't involve her.
Given that I feel this way, I approach other people this way. If a friend of mine gets in a relationship, I figure I have to accept and embrace his/her S.O. or reject the whole friendship. In may experience, getting in-between spouses or ignoring someone's S.O. just leads to pain for all involved.
Here's how I think of it: what would you do if your friend suddenly became a racist? The spouse is like this -- an ugly wart that has grown on your friend's personality. But the wart is part of the friend.
Certainly, I don't think it's your job to help your friend see that she's made a bad choice. That way also lies trouble. You have to respect that she's an adult and must make her own bed and lie in it.
Luckily for me, this is not the case, but if everyone hated my wife and being with her lost me all my friends, I would still stay with her, and I wouldn't appreciate you trying to talk me out of it.
posted by grumblebee at 10:31 AM on October 29, 2006
I guess, to put a slightly -- not much, but SLIGHTLY -- more positive (or at least pragmatic) spin on things, I would tell my friend, "I love you, but I can't stand being around your spouse. I know it's not fair to make you choose between your spouse and me, but I can't be around him/her. I'm not suggesting you leave him/her, but if you ever do, I'll be there for you. Until then, I'm going to butt out."
posted by grumblebee at 10:34 AM on October 29, 2006
posted by grumblebee at 10:34 AM on October 29, 2006
Response by poster: I'm not going to be able to get the person alone. I'm convinced of that.
What I guess I'm asking is how to do this via email. And by this, I mean this:
make it really painless and non-confrontational
How? I have no idea how to do this. The last time I tried it was brushed aside with "Oh, I know I'm the only one who likes my mate." At the same time, I have never expressed my feelings about the mate in a "you're ruining your life" sort of way because I don't believe it's my place to make that judgement (even though every other person I know agrees with me).
On preview, grumblebee, that's exactly what I feel--word for word I agree with what you're saying and I guess I'm asking because I'm hoping that either
a) someone's been in a similar situation and found a way out or
b) someone's been the friend and had someone like me come to them and speak their mind about the situation and I want to know how they did it and what the result was.
posted by Manhasset at 10:40 AM on October 29, 2006
What I guess I'm asking is how to do this via email. And by this, I mean this:
make it really painless and non-confrontational
How? I have no idea how to do this. The last time I tried it was brushed aside with "Oh, I know I'm the only one who likes my mate." At the same time, I have never expressed my feelings about the mate in a "you're ruining your life" sort of way because I don't believe it's my place to make that judgement (even though every other person I know agrees with me).
On preview, grumblebee, that's exactly what I feel--word for word I agree with what you're saying and I guess I'm asking because I'm hoping that either
a) someone's been in a similar situation and found a way out or
b) someone's been the friend and had someone like me come to them and speak their mind about the situation and I want to know how they did it and what the result was.
posted by Manhasset at 10:40 AM on October 29, 2006
Well, if your friend knows that no one likes this woman, just tell him that you don't like he and you want to spend time with him without her. He already knows you don't like her. See if he'll do it.
posted by delmoi at 10:48 AM on October 29, 2006
posted by delmoi at 10:48 AM on October 29, 2006
Best answer: Some - or, actually, most - of my friends detested by old boyfriend. I know that's not the same as a spouse because the relationship isn't as serious, but maybe you can still take inspiration from what they did. They just sat me down one-by-one and said, "I don't him, I think he's bad for you and I think you deserve better. You obviously see something I don't because you love him, but I just can't spend time with him." They still listened to my relationship gripes and we still did things together, but I respected their decision not to socalize with my boyfriend because they took responsibility for how they felt and also admitted that there was another side to the boyfriend that they just didn't see.
For what it's worth, the relationship eventually crumbled, and my friends were there for me. Now I'm married to a great guy that my friends like. So there's still hope.
posted by christinetheslp at 10:55 AM on October 29, 2006 [1 favorite]
For what it's worth, the relationship eventually crumbled, and my friends were there for me. Now I'm married to a great guy that my friends like. So there's still hope.
posted by christinetheslp at 10:55 AM on October 29, 2006 [1 favorite]
Even after reading the clarification, I think I'm still confused as to what the question is. Are you asking - "How do I use email to tell my friend that I think his/her spouse is ruining his/her life without being confrontational and without causing any pain?"
posted by The Gooch at 11:04 AM on October 29, 2006
posted by The Gooch at 11:04 AM on October 29, 2006
Response by poster: The Gooch, I don't think pain is avoidable in this situation. I'm not naive enough to think that everything is going to go smooth sailing, but yes, I'm asking how I can brooch the subject in a way that leads to discussion of the topic rather than dismissal of it.
Also, christineheslp's answer is also the kind of response I was hoping for. Reassurance that it's possible to do this in a way that is respectful and polite--unfortunately I'm a very confrontational/emotional person and I find it difficult to talk/write about things that disturb me--more so, I believe, than the average person.
Though I don't imagine it's easy for anyone to discuss such a thing with their friend, I am hoping that the objectivity and experience of MeFiosas will aid in the brooching of the topic with my friend.
posted by Manhasset at 11:21 AM on October 29, 2006
Also, christineheslp's answer is also the kind of response I was hoping for. Reassurance that it's possible to do this in a way that is respectful and polite--unfortunately I'm a very confrontational/emotional person and I find it difficult to talk/write about things that disturb me--more so, I believe, than the average person.
Though I don't imagine it's easy for anyone to discuss such a thing with their friend, I am hoping that the objectivity and experience of MeFiosas will aid in the brooching of the topic with my friend.
posted by Manhasset at 11:21 AM on October 29, 2006
Response by poster: Ugh. Broach. Broach. Sorry. I'm finding this thing so nervewracking I can't think straight.
posted by Manhasset at 11:26 AM on October 29, 2006
posted by Manhasset at 11:26 AM on October 29, 2006
Manhasset, thank you for the further clarification. The red flag I see here is that your friend has already let it be known that he/she is aware that "I know I'm the only one who likes my mate."
The question you have to ask yourself is "What information am I going to present to my friend that he/she doesn't already know?". As has already been established, you friend is not blind to the fact that nobody within your social circle is fond of the spouse. Being realistic, chances are your friend is also aware of anything else you plan on telling him or her - everything from the deterioation of his/her's social life to the fact that the spouse appears surgically attached to your friend's hip. I'm not totally sure what you'd like the end result of this gentle confrontation to be, but if you are hoping that you can help your friend to "See the Light" so to speak, I'm worried that you will be disappointed.
posted by The Gooch at 11:37 AM on October 29, 2006
The question you have to ask yourself is "What information am I going to present to my friend that he/she doesn't already know?". As has already been established, you friend is not blind to the fact that nobody within your social circle is fond of the spouse. Being realistic, chances are your friend is also aware of anything else you plan on telling him or her - everything from the deterioation of his/her's social life to the fact that the spouse appears surgically attached to your friend's hip. I'm not totally sure what you'd like the end result of this gentle confrontation to be, but if you are hoping that you can help your friend to "See the Light" so to speak, I'm worried that you will be disappointed.
posted by The Gooch at 11:37 AM on October 29, 2006
The responses aren't what you're hoping for because most readers understand that you shouldn't brooch the subject. Your asking the community HOW you should do something inadvisable in lieu of a course of action which would spare a lot of frustration (i.e. keeping quiet.) No good will come from venting to your pal, only his hurt feelings and the thought that getting things off your chest wasn't worth all the drama.
Besides, I bet your friend really wants wife to be there when he socializes with a larger group. He may even be pressuring her to come along, considering his unwillingness to spend time with you alone.
posted by dendrite at 11:37 AM on October 29, 2006
Besides, I bet your friend really wants wife to be there when he socializes with a larger group. He may even be pressuring her to come along, considering his unwillingness to spend time with you alone.
posted by dendrite at 11:37 AM on October 29, 2006
there's a difference between disliking the spouse and thinking the spouse is bad for/to your friend. i've definitely spoken up when i thought there was some real or potential damage to my friend, but in the case where you think the spouse is perfectly kind & loving to your friend but just kind of unpleasant generally, you just have to suck it up. your friend probably already knows how you feel and doesn't want to hear it.
this is your opportunity to be the bigger, loving, more generous person in the equation. that's sort of your only option.
posted by judith at 11:46 AM on October 29, 2006
this is your opportunity to be the bigger, loving, more generous person in the equation. that's sort of your only option.
posted by judith at 11:46 AM on October 29, 2006
Best answer: Keep it short and honest. You say to your friend, "I love you but, like seemingly everyone except you, I can't stand [spouse]. Yes, that's a horrible thing to say, but it's true. You wouldn't want me to lie to you. So please understand that everything is finished between me and the conjoined twins that you and [spouse] have become, but only because I can't take [him/her] any longer. I am always hopeful of seeing you if you can get out of the house without [spouse]. Let me know if you would like to get together somewhere. I miss you."
posted by pracowity at 11:55 AM on October 29, 2006
posted by pracowity at 11:55 AM on October 29, 2006
Response by poster: Dendrite, I never said the responses weren't what I was looking for. I don't even think I suggested that. Saying christinetheslp's answer is what I was hoping for does not mean the other answers are usless or unappreciated, just that I hoped I'd see an answer from someone who at one time had been in the friend's situation.
Besides, I bet your friend really wants wife to be there when he socializes with a larger group.
Well, unfortunately, if I don't speak to my friend and, instead, stop going to group gatherings and am asked why and answer truthfully, my friend will no longer be invited to the gatherings at all. That's part of the problem. My friend now has exactly three friends and pretty much the only time any of us sees the others (because we are so scattered) is when we all attend. The two other friends feel exactly the way I do. My only other option is to keep attending and suffer, but after 10 years, I've frankly had enough of it.
On preview, thanks pracowity, that expresses my feelings exactly and is much more diplomatic than I could have done myself.
posted by Manhasset at 12:00 PM on October 29, 2006
Besides, I bet your friend really wants wife to be there when he socializes with a larger group.
Well, unfortunately, if I don't speak to my friend and, instead, stop going to group gatherings and am asked why and answer truthfully, my friend will no longer be invited to the gatherings at all. That's part of the problem. My friend now has exactly three friends and pretty much the only time any of us sees the others (because we are so scattered) is when we all attend. The two other friends feel exactly the way I do. My only other option is to keep attending and suffer, but after 10 years, I've frankly had enough of it.
On preview, thanks pracowity, that expresses my feelings exactly and is much more diplomatic than I could have done myself.
posted by Manhasset at 12:00 PM on October 29, 2006
Best answer: Manhasset, is it possible that a solution — or at least an approach — goes through (ruh-roh!) the spouse? One thing I'm not sure of from the foregoing is exactly who's responsible for the conjoined thing. We're all ready to jump all over the spouse for ruining a beautiful friendship and changing your pal for the worse. But exactly which one is insisting they do everything as a pair? That could be key.
It's quite possible that the spouse is such a lonely, insecure person that s/he needs to be along for the party every time. Is it also possible that s/he actually likes you, and doesn't get that she's harming your old relationship? As much as you dislike being near, maybe your best bet is to try to get the spouse to understand that it's not healthy for the partner to lose all old ties, and have to do all socializing as a twosome. Try framing this as concern for your old friend, and not as an attack on the new couple. The spouse might be so surprised to be addressed directly that s/he might actually listen.
posted by rob511 at 12:20 PM on October 29, 2006
It's quite possible that the spouse is such a lonely, insecure person that s/he needs to be along for the party every time. Is it also possible that s/he actually likes you, and doesn't get that she's harming your old relationship? As much as you dislike being near, maybe your best bet is to try to get the spouse to understand that it's not healthy for the partner to lose all old ties, and have to do all socializing as a twosome. Try framing this as concern for your old friend, and not as an attack on the new couple. The spouse might be so surprised to be addressed directly that s/he might actually listen.
posted by rob511 at 12:20 PM on October 29, 2006
pracowity has it exactly right. I went through a similar situation with someone who was my closest friend for over 15 years. Once the Wife From Hell™ came into the picture, that was it. I had to cut the situation loose, and even though it was painful, it was the only way.
posted by dbiedny at 12:51 PM on October 29, 2006
posted by dbiedny at 12:51 PM on October 29, 2006
No matter what kind of heinous freak someone's spouse or significant other is, to attack him or her is to attack your friend. I certainly understand your predicament, but I promise you that any negative things you say will hurt rather than help the relationships of all involved. Try to do the girl's/boy's night tihng if you can, but you may just have to suck it up, feign explosive diarrhea, run, and excuse yourself to talk to the Princeton and Rutgers people.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 1:13 PM on October 29, 2006
posted by Optimus Chyme at 1:13 PM on October 29, 2006
For the record, if any of my friends made the statement to me regarding my wife that pracowity suggests you make to your friend, I would be incredibly insulted and have little desire to ever see that friend again. I couldn't even imagine maintaining a friendship with someone who was so brazenly insulting towards my wife. If you just want to get your feelings off your chest and then be done with the friendship, saying what pracowity suggested may be the release you've been looking for. Hhowever, if you actually have any interest in keeping this friendship active, I have a hard time believing that the comment will be taken in a positive way (even if it's all true).
posted by The Gooch at 1:30 PM on October 29, 2006
posted by The Gooch at 1:30 PM on October 29, 2006
I think maybe you're approaching this problem the wrong way. Don't approach it as if the annoying spouse is the problem, but approach it as if the specific objectionable conduct of the annoying spouse is the problem.
(I'm assuming your friend is female, and the annoying spouse is male, just for ease of reference.)
For example: after your dinner with the intellectual luminaries from Princeton and Rutgers, you could have taken your friend aside and said, "Listen, I love your husband to death, but he was so overbearing and domineering that he kept me from talking to the luminaries I wanted to mingle with at the dinner party. Is there any way you could encourage him, at future events, to let me mingle with other people, instead of latching onto me the whole night?"
I think treating the annoying spouse as the problem --- and letting your friend know that you despise the annoying spouse --- will be the kiss of death for the friendship. But if you can couch it in terms of "I love your spouse, but his behavior is getting in the way of me enjoying events with the two of you," then you have phrased it in such a way that your friend's feelings are more likely to be spared.
posted by jayder at 2:42 PM on October 29, 2006
(I'm assuming your friend is female, and the annoying spouse is male, just for ease of reference.)
For example: after your dinner with the intellectual luminaries from Princeton and Rutgers, you could have taken your friend aside and said, "Listen, I love your husband to death, but he was so overbearing and domineering that he kept me from talking to the luminaries I wanted to mingle with at the dinner party. Is there any way you could encourage him, at future events, to let me mingle with other people, instead of latching onto me the whole night?"
I think treating the annoying spouse as the problem --- and letting your friend know that you despise the annoying spouse --- will be the kiss of death for the friendship. But if you can couch it in terms of "I love your spouse, but his behavior is getting in the way of me enjoying events with the two of you," then you have phrased it in such a way that your friend's feelings are more likely to be spared.
posted by jayder at 2:42 PM on October 29, 2006
I like christinetheslp's suggestion, too, but I think it's important to make such overtures in a behavior-focused way, not a person-focused way.
"I don't like him," is very likely to be offensive.
"I can really see why you love him, but this thing he does irritates the shit out of me," goes down much more palatably. You can even make kind of a joke about it: "Damn, I so wanted to slap him that night; because of his self-important blabbering I didn't get to speak to the Princeton and Rutgers people!" If your friend has a healthy sense of humor, she may even be sympathetic.
posted by jayder at 2:50 PM on October 29, 2006
"I don't like him," is very likely to be offensive.
"I can really see why you love him, but this thing he does irritates the shit out of me," goes down much more palatably. You can even make kind of a joke about it: "Damn, I so wanted to slap him that night; because of his self-important blabbering I didn't get to speak to the Princeton and Rutgers people!" If your friend has a healthy sense of humor, she may even be sympathetic.
posted by jayder at 2:50 PM on October 29, 2006
Manhasset, it sounds like you're in a situation with many possible rational approaches, but no solution. Your heart must balance your head here. I happen to agree with what pracowcity and other have suggested: put it straight to your friend about how you are feeling, and then leave it up to him/her to decide how to react. That's the best you can do, and as The Gooch points out, there could be consequences that will hurt you and/or your friend. But you make it plain that you've had enough of the status quo, and so you must act. That's honorable, no matter what the outcome.
In the realm of personal experience, I offer something similar to that of christinetheslp's: in the long ago, far far away past I had a significant relationship with someone deeply disliked by the majority of my friends. At the time, I was confused and dismayed, and yes, a bit indignant (how could they not support me in my choice of who to be with??). I did not cut ties with these honest people, although I did spend less time with them during the relationship. As it turned out for me, their honesty helped me, when I was ready, to end a relationship that was bad for me. Now, your friend may really be in a loving supportive relationship (for who are we to say?), but if, as you suspect, s/he is suffering because of this bad partnership, then your honesty may provide a touchstone and a buoy for the friend at some point. Maybe this is a case where the risk of losing the friendship is worth it.
posted by butternut at 3:04 PM on October 29, 2006
In the realm of personal experience, I offer something similar to that of christinetheslp's: in the long ago, far far away past I had a significant relationship with someone deeply disliked by the majority of my friends. At the time, I was confused and dismayed, and yes, a bit indignant (how could they not support me in my choice of who to be with??). I did not cut ties with these honest people, although I did spend less time with them during the relationship. As it turned out for me, their honesty helped me, when I was ready, to end a relationship that was bad for me. Now, your friend may really be in a loving supportive relationship (for who are we to say?), but if, as you suspect, s/he is suffering because of this bad partnership, then your honesty may provide a touchstone and a buoy for the friend at some point. Maybe this is a case where the risk of losing the friendship is worth it.
posted by butternut at 3:04 PM on October 29, 2006
approach it as if the specific objectionable conduct of the annoying spouse is the problem.
I wouldn't even bring the spouse into it. The goal is to spend time with the friend without the spouse, rather than approaching it from the standpoint of what's wrong with the spouse, I'd approach it from the standpoint of what's wrong with being joined at the hip and/or unable to see friends without the spouse. I wouldn't address it as a "here's why I hate your beloved', but rather a "do you think we could spend some time together, just you and I?". I wouldn't even bring the spouse into it other than to make it clear that you want to spend time with the friend alone/sans spouse.
posted by biscotti at 3:05 PM on October 29, 2006
I wouldn't even bring the spouse into it. The goal is to spend time with the friend without the spouse, rather than approaching it from the standpoint of what's wrong with the spouse, I'd approach it from the standpoint of what's wrong with being joined at the hip and/or unable to see friends without the spouse. I wouldn't address it as a "here's why I hate your beloved', but rather a "do you think we could spend some time together, just you and I?". I wouldn't even bring the spouse into it other than to make it clear that you want to spend time with the friend alone/sans spouse.
posted by biscotti at 3:05 PM on October 29, 2006
make it really painless and non-confrontational
That's called avoidance. Personally, as a male INFP who hates confrontation, this is probably how I would handle it. Just don't call the friend anymore. Don't answer the phone when they call. Don't answer emails. If you do still want to communicate with them, keep it strictly to email where you know it's a one-on-one scenario (unless spouse is there hovering over her writing emails - then use her work email address to make that less likely).
I suspect the friend is dragging the spouse along in some cases not due to coercion from the spouse, but pity from the friend for the spouse. She obviously finds something intriguing about the person that no one else does, which is fine. But she clearly thinks he needs more socializing, or maybe she thinks if YOU spend more time with him that you'll start to like him. Yeah, you know, fat chance to that and all, unless he clearly and obviously does make some indication that there's more to him than meets the eye (like transforming into a robot).
I've had friends in relationships with people I really don't like, and they became inseparable for a while, and, well, I flat out told the person "I want to hang out with you but not them. They're not invited. I'd rather not hang out at all if they come with you. Sorry." My friend was nice enough to be very understanding and say "Ok." to it, but if your friend ask "Why?" just say "No reason. I don't like the guy. Liking and disliking people isn't a rational proposition anyway. You either like someone or you don't. And I don't like him."
posted by smallerdemon at 3:34 PM on October 29, 2006 [1 favorite]
That's called avoidance. Personally, as a male INFP who hates confrontation, this is probably how I would handle it. Just don't call the friend anymore. Don't answer the phone when they call. Don't answer emails. If you do still want to communicate with them, keep it strictly to email where you know it's a one-on-one scenario (unless spouse is there hovering over her writing emails - then use her work email address to make that less likely).
I suspect the friend is dragging the spouse along in some cases not due to coercion from the spouse, but pity from the friend for the spouse. She obviously finds something intriguing about the person that no one else does, which is fine. But she clearly thinks he needs more socializing, or maybe she thinks if YOU spend more time with him that you'll start to like him. Yeah, you know, fat chance to that and all, unless he clearly and obviously does make some indication that there's more to him than meets the eye (like transforming into a robot).
I've had friends in relationships with people I really don't like, and they became inseparable for a while, and, well, I flat out told the person "I want to hang out with you but not them. They're not invited. I'd rather not hang out at all if they come with you. Sorry." My friend was nice enough to be very understanding and say "Ok." to it, but if your friend ask "Why?" just say "No reason. I don't like the guy. Liking and disliking people isn't a rational proposition anyway. You either like someone or you don't. And I don't like him."
posted by smallerdemon at 3:34 PM on October 29, 2006 [1 favorite]
Now that you have these observations and some sound and pithy advice, email your friend this thread (right back here). That's the "Dear Abby" method. Although your examples may be a bit too specific to fly under the radar, it might open up some dialog , assuming your "friend" is receptive to a "solution" that includes YOU .
posted by Agamenticus at 6:20 PM on October 29, 2006
posted by Agamenticus at 6:20 PM on October 29, 2006
This situation is really sad. It seems to me like your friend is hanging onto you for dear life since you're obviously one of the few friends she has left that's been able to tolerate the spouse this long. I don't know how close you and your friend are, but if I were in your situation, it would take a helluva lot more than an annoying spouse to separate me from a friendship that's lasted 25 years.
posted by LuckySeven~ at 8:01 PM on October 29, 2006
posted by LuckySeven~ at 8:01 PM on October 29, 2006
I have a similar issue - my best friend's boyfriend of two years now is completely heinous and only near-human and I can't tolerate him. Basically, I took my "one shot" about 18 months ago and told her that he had bad mojo and that I thought she deserved someone better. Apparently it didn't make any difference because she's still seeing him. I only take comfort in the fact that it's apparently statistically true that if you don't get engaged by about 18 months it's curtains for the relationship, no matter how long they are in coming.
In order to deal with this person, I've done a couple of things. First of all, I've made it clear that I'm not able to be nice to this person for an extended period. This is more to save her than me - I really really suck at pretending to like people as it is, and doing it for work drains those resources. Not "I hate him and I won't be nice to him," but, "You know I have a hard time hiding my feelings, and I don't want to be put in the position of being rude." Secondly, I just blank his very existence. I just don't express an opinion or acknowledge his existence any more than is required. If you can get her alone from time to time, then maybe just avoiding discussion of The Spouse is the way to go. If she mentions him, just let it pass and change the subject. Don't dwell, but don't react. I find a non-comment like, "Uh-huh," followed by anything else at all really works.
posted by Medieval Maven at 8:10 PM on October 29, 2006
In order to deal with this person, I've done a couple of things. First of all, I've made it clear that I'm not able to be nice to this person for an extended period. This is more to save her than me - I really really suck at pretending to like people as it is, and doing it for work drains those resources. Not "I hate him and I won't be nice to him," but, "You know I have a hard time hiding my feelings, and I don't want to be put in the position of being rude." Secondly, I just blank his very existence. I just don't express an opinion or acknowledge his existence any more than is required. If you can get her alone from time to time, then maybe just avoiding discussion of The Spouse is the way to go. If she mentions him, just let it pass and change the subject. Don't dwell, but don't react. I find a non-comment like, "Uh-huh," followed by anything else at all really works.
posted by Medieval Maven at 8:10 PM on October 29, 2006
I think it's worth noting that virtually all of the examples given thus far of this type of controntation working out for the best have been exclusively confrontations about boy/girlfriend relationships. Unless I've misread the thread, I have yet to see an example where someone was either on the giving or receiving end of this scenario in a marriage relationship. I don't think that is a coincidence.
There is a world of difference, I think, between telling someone that you have some concerns about the person he or she has been dating for (some not all that long period of time) vs. telling someone that same thing about the person they has officially, legally committed to spending the rest of his or her life with.
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, just want to point out that the same advice that worked for someone when they didn't like the guy their best friend had been dating for six months (or, alternatively, the example that worked for the person who was dating someone for a few months that none of their friends liked) isn't necessarily applicable in a long-term marriage relationship.
posted by The Gooch at 5:47 AM on October 30, 2006
There is a world of difference, I think, between telling someone that you have some concerns about the person he or she has been dating for (some not all that long period of time) vs. telling someone that same thing about the person they has officially, legally committed to spending the rest of his or her life with.
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, just want to point out that the same advice that worked for someone when they didn't like the guy their best friend had been dating for six months (or, alternatively, the example that worked for the person who was dating someone for a few months that none of their friends liked) isn't necessarily applicable in a long-term marriage relationship.
posted by The Gooch at 5:47 AM on October 30, 2006
No matter what kind of heinous freak someone's spouse or significant other is, to attack him or her is to attack your friend.
Exactly. There is really no point to this conversation you want to have, other than to get your feelings off your chest. If that's what's important to you, go for it, but it may well mean the end of your friendship. I'd go with biscotti's advice:
I wouldn't even bring the spouse into it other than to make it clear that you want to spend time with the friend alone/sans spouse.
And if the friend won't do that, you'll just have to wait for the end of the friend's marriage and/or the demise of all concerned. There is no "good solution." (By the way, why the hell are you being so coy about the genders? It makes things harder on those of us trying to discuss it without any benefit I can see. Do you really think if you say "he" and "she" your friends who see this thread will slap their foreheads and say "Oh, you're talking about Fred and Ethel!" whereas if you leave it ambiguous they won't have a clue?)
The "ruh-roh" disease.
posted by languagehat at 5:54 AM on October 30, 2006
Exactly. There is really no point to this conversation you want to have, other than to get your feelings off your chest. If that's what's important to you, go for it, but it may well mean the end of your friendship. I'd go with biscotti's advice:
I wouldn't even bring the spouse into it other than to make it clear that you want to spend time with the friend alone/sans spouse.
And if the friend won't do that, you'll just have to wait for the end of the friend's marriage and/or the demise of all concerned. There is no "good solution." (By the way, why the hell are you being so coy about the genders? It makes things harder on those of us trying to discuss it without any benefit I can see. Do you really think if you say "he" and "she" your friends who see this thread will slap their foreheads and say "Oh, you're talking about Fred and Ethel!" whereas if you leave it ambiguous they won't have a clue?)
The "ruh-roh" disease.
posted by languagehat at 5:54 AM on October 30, 2006
Blame it on early-morning posting: "controntation" = confrontation, "they has" = "he or she has"
posted by The Gooch at 9:00 AM on October 30, 2006
posted by The Gooch at 9:00 AM on October 30, 2006
No matter what kind of heinous freak someone's spouse or significant other is, to attack him or her is to attack your friend.
Sure it is, but it can be the start of some much-needed relationship chemotherapy -- keeping in mind that chemotherapy collaterally damages the whole body in order to target the cancer, but once the cancer is gone, the body can regain full health. Being honest with my best friend about her estranged (and now soon to be ex-) husband came far later into things than it should have. Because he was, in fact, a heinous freak, I distanced myself from her, and therefore I was unaware of just how heinous and freaky he was, to the point of abusive.
Had I, and others who are now coming out of the woodwork (sister, other close friends, grandmother) said from the start that we disliked him and enumerated why, we may have saved my friend from a decade of strife and pain, trapped in a marriage that was a sham from the start and absolute hell by the end. At the very least, we may have planted a seed in her mind that there would be support for her if she had made the decision to leave him sooner than she ultimately did -- she's said as much. That was hard to swallow.
If this spouse, let's say it's Fred, is as toxic as he seems, to the point where everyone is doing their damndest to stay away from both Fred and Ethel, then Ethel is suffering from Fred's social disease and needs treatment. The fact that she may cling to Fred is of no consequence -- consider it like the person who has crippling social anxiety: the disease keeps them from seeking treatment but it also makes them feel safe so they cling to it and design a life that allows them to limit the interactions that they are unable to face, with an ever more elaborate set of schemes and plans for everything from paying the bills to getting food to having the furnace repaired. Meanwhile, they miss the events of life, they never see the sunshine, and when they become critically ill and need medical care that can't come to them, it's exponentially more traumatic.
Will Ethel be hurt and insulted when someone she cares about says "I can't see you anymore if Fred is around, I just cannot deal with him anymore, and won't." Of course she will. But the reality of that situation is already manifestinig itself in the avoidance. Telling her the facts and getting things out in the open is just tearing off the bandage of secrecy that's been allowing the wound to fester.
posted by Dreama at 9:20 AM on October 30, 2006
Sure it is, but it can be the start of some much-needed relationship chemotherapy -- keeping in mind that chemotherapy collaterally damages the whole body in order to target the cancer, but once the cancer is gone, the body can regain full health. Being honest with my best friend about her estranged (and now soon to be ex-) husband came far later into things than it should have. Because he was, in fact, a heinous freak, I distanced myself from her, and therefore I was unaware of just how heinous and freaky he was, to the point of abusive.
Had I, and others who are now coming out of the woodwork (sister, other close friends, grandmother) said from the start that we disliked him and enumerated why, we may have saved my friend from a decade of strife and pain, trapped in a marriage that was a sham from the start and absolute hell by the end. At the very least, we may have planted a seed in her mind that there would be support for her if she had made the decision to leave him sooner than she ultimately did -- she's said as much. That was hard to swallow.
If this spouse, let's say it's Fred, is as toxic as he seems, to the point where everyone is doing their damndest to stay away from both Fred and Ethel, then Ethel is suffering from Fred's social disease and needs treatment. The fact that she may cling to Fred is of no consequence -- consider it like the person who has crippling social anxiety: the disease keeps them from seeking treatment but it also makes them feel safe so they cling to it and design a life that allows them to limit the interactions that they are unable to face, with an ever more elaborate set of schemes and plans for everything from paying the bills to getting food to having the furnace repaired. Meanwhile, they miss the events of life, they never see the sunshine, and when they become critically ill and need medical care that can't come to them, it's exponentially more traumatic.
Will Ethel be hurt and insulted when someone she cares about says "I can't see you anymore if Fred is around, I just cannot deal with him anymore, and won't." Of course she will. But the reality of that situation is already manifestinig itself in the avoidance. Telling her the facts and getting things out in the open is just tearing off the bandage of secrecy that's been allowing the wound to fester.
posted by Dreama at 9:20 AM on October 30, 2006
Two weeks ago I was at an event with these people and we were sitting at a table with a half dozen other people, all of whom I wanted to speak with (renowned authors/thinkers and visiting professors from Princeton & Rutgers). Three hours later I hadn't spoken to any of these people because I was seated next to the spouse. This has happened over a dozen times at such events in the past few years. Even when the spouse is not seated next to me, they come to find me. I can't avoid the person, much as I try.
You have two problems.
One, this person either likes you in complete disproportion to how much you like them or recognizes your distaste and is trying - however incompetently - to overcome that. Some people see a brick wall and assume that if running into it head-first has failed to knock it down the last 1,000 times then that just means they need to keep trying.
Two, you need to stop being a fucking doormat.
I drop the f-bomb on you because you need to stop seeing this as an issue with how little you like your friends spouse and instead as an issue with your ability to handle needy/controlling people who monopolize your time. The friend thing may be the ongoing issue but by your own indication you let someone prevent you from getting what you wanted out of an event - possibly one that had professional implications for you. That could just as easily have been an awkward undergrad or socially awkward professor who was monopolizing your time rather than a friend's spouse.
If you couldn't disengage this person when your professional life was on the line it's little surprise you're not coping well with hir casually either. Before you give up on your friend entirely, why not look into one of the bazillion books out there on Amazon on dealing with difficult people? It's a valuable professional skill anyway and there's little advantage in hurrying up the confrontation with your friend.
I'd also say that if the "bore" is that interested in conversing with you that they'd monopolize your time that you have an advantage in trying to work something out - clearly they're willing to put the time into this association. That's a motivated person in some way.
posted by phearlez at 9:21 AM on October 30, 2006
You have two problems.
One, this person either likes you in complete disproportion to how much you like them or recognizes your distaste and is trying - however incompetently - to overcome that. Some people see a brick wall and assume that if running into it head-first has failed to knock it down the last 1,000 times then that just means they need to keep trying.
Two, you need to stop being a fucking doormat.
I drop the f-bomb on you because you need to stop seeing this as an issue with how little you like your friends spouse and instead as an issue with your ability to handle needy/controlling people who monopolize your time. The friend thing may be the ongoing issue but by your own indication you let someone prevent you from getting what you wanted out of an event - possibly one that had professional implications for you. That could just as easily have been an awkward undergrad or socially awkward professor who was monopolizing your time rather than a friend's spouse.
If you couldn't disengage this person when your professional life was on the line it's little surprise you're not coping well with hir casually either. Before you give up on your friend entirely, why not look into one of the bazillion books out there on Amazon on dealing with difficult people? It's a valuable professional skill anyway and there's little advantage in hurrying up the confrontation with your friend.
I'd also say that if the "bore" is that interested in conversing with you that they'd monopolize your time that you have an advantage in trying to work something out - clearly they're willing to put the time into this association. That's a motivated person in some way.
posted by phearlez at 9:21 AM on October 30, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by juliarothbort at 10:00 AM on October 29, 2006