Comments on: Testy Copyeditors (yes, one word)

Question: Testy Copyeditors (yes, one word)

vers — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 16:41:03 -0800

Very straightforward: would a testy copyeditor say "take out our grammar frustrations" or "take out our grammatical frustrations" and why?

By: brina

brina — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 16:47:56 -0800

A copy editor would be more likely to say "grammatical frustrations" than "grammar frustrations."

"Grammatical" is an adjective, and in this particular form it would be an adjective modifying "frustrations"; grammar is a noun and would generally be inappropriate.

But neither of those phrases sound nice to my ear. I personally wouldn't use either.

By: stupidsexyFlanders

stupidsexyFlanders — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 16:52:36 -0800

I use the transitive property of English to figure out stuff like this: just drop in other words doing the same job into the sentence and see what sounds right:

take out his "sexual frustrations" or "sex frustrations"?

He had "political aspirations" or "politics aspirations"?

Based on the above, your answer is "grammatical aspirations." Sorry I can't give you a real rationale.

By: Civil_Disobedient

Civil_Disobedient — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 16:54:46 -0800

The latter, because it's the adjective form for the word (as brina said).

By: Steven C. Den Beste

Steven C. Den Beste — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:05:42 -0800

I think both are correct constructions and they have different meanings.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:16:26 -0800

What SCDB said. They are different, but "grammatical frustrations" doesn't have any obvious real-world use—it would mean 'frustrations that obey the rules of grammar,' which doesn't make much sense. What is meant is 'frustrations having to do with grammar,' for which English, with its wonderful flexibility, allows us to use a noun as a modifier and say "grammar frustrations." If you don't believe you can use a noun as a modifier, I guess you never say "snow day" or "raincoat."

By: AmbroseChapel

AmbroseChapel — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:18:10 -0800

The first one means "take out our frustrations with grammar" and the second one might mean that, but might also mean "take out those of our frustrations which are grammatical [as opposed to ungrammatical]".

Neither of them sounds very real-world. Copyeditors have frustrations with other people's writing, not with grammar.

By: brina

brina — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:31:43 -0800

They are different, but "grammatical frustrations" doesn't have any obvious real-world use—it would mean 'frustrations that obey the rules of grammar,' which doesn't make much sense.

languagehat: I was going to write about this in my original comment, but decided against it because I figured common usage wouldn't be an issue.

"Grammatical" can mean either concerning grammar or obeying the rules of grammar. In this case, it would be the former.

Additionally, using nouns as modifiers may be completely fine, but many copy editors will take you to task for it. Because they're anal. I mean ... meticulous.

By: brina

brina — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:33:29 -0800

Ugh. And in my first post I meant to say "But neither of those phrases sounds nice to my ear."

By: smorange

smorange — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:37:33 -0800

If you don't believe you can use a noun as a modifier, I guess you never say "snow day" or "raincoat."

Or, for that matter, "languagehat?" (LH's answer is of course correct).

By: languagehat

languagehat — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 18:07:19 -0800

using nouns as modifiers may be completely fine, but many copy editors will take you to task for it.

Any copy editor who did is an idiot and should be fired for not understanding the basics of the English language.

"Grammatical" can mean either concerning grammar or obeying the rules of grammar.

Even accepting the possible ambiguity for the sake of argument, why not use the unambiguous construction?

By: Neiltupper

Neiltupper — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 21:50:29 -0800

Analogies are useful tools. Would a copy editor say "take out our punctuation frustrations"? I think so. And the meaning (as in the original) would be quite clear.

By: kindall

kindall — Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:22:39 -0800

As a matter of style, since either has the intended meaning, I'd say "grammar frustrations" because it's shorter and therefore punchier.

By: taz

taz — Sun, 22 Oct 2006 01:00:59 -0800

I think they would really say "take out our frustrations with grammar" but between the two, I don't think "grammar frustrations" is the best choice, in the same way "take out our law frustrations" wouldn't be a good choice.

"Grammatical" means "relating to grammar" as well as "conforming to the rules of grammar" and legal means "relating to law" as well as "conforming to the law". It seems obvious that you would say "legal frustrations" over "law frustrations" and by the same token, "grammatical frustrations" over "grammar frustrations".

But of course if you are speaking as a judge, or an editor, who is commenting on the whole system, "frustrations with the law" and "frustrations with grammar" are much clearer.

By: vers

vers — Sun, 22 Oct 2006 04:57:20 -0800

Thank you all - I know there's not much real world usage for this phrase, though it did hit my desk in an actual message. I'll work around this construction in the future when I have "frustrations with grammar"!

By: Kirth Gerson

Kirth Gerson — Sun, 22 Oct 2006 06:02:23 -0800

Why not ask the Testy Copy Editors themselves?

By: wryly

wryly — Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:42:48 -0800

Vers, you said it best. The truly testy copy editor would recast the sentence rather than choose between two iffy phrases.

By: caitlinb

caitlinb — Sun, 22 Oct 2006 13:03:03 -0800

I'm a testy copyeditor, and I too would rephrase.