Must I "diss" grace as an atheist?

October 20, 2006 12:58 PM

What's the polite thing for an atheist to do during grace at the dinner table to which s/he was invited?

Recently, I found myself in a series of uncomfortable situations where I was a guest at the dinner table of very devout religious-folk who would take 4-5 minutes to say grace. As a guest, I didn't want to offend by refusing to take part or standing out in any way. At the same time, I wasn't going to pretend to be praying, either.

When I searched, I found this and this, but neither really answered my question. This comment makes it clear what I should do (if I understand the comment correctly), but I was a bit surprised by it, as I had imagined that the offense would come from the other direction, as I mentioned above.

What I ended up doing was simply folding my hands together in a somewhat casual way, then staring intently at my dish with a slightly bowed head, but this felt extremely silly.

To provide some background info: no, the family didn't know I was atheist, nor did I realize how devout they were. Yes, it was the family of a close friend, and while I knew he was religious, again, I didn't realize to what extent. And plus, my question is more general, as in "What is the proper thing to do in such a situation?"

posted by war wrath of wraith to society & culture (47 comments total)

My response (which happens waaaaaaaaaay often here in the southern US) is to simply be quiet while they do their thing. I'll look around and listen, and not do/say anything. So no, I don't "fake it" but I also don't sigh heavily and murmer "Dawkins would be so pissed at this" either.
posted by griffey at 1:03 PM on October 20, 2006

Sit quietly with your hands folded in your lap. You can look around if you want, if it's not overtly distracting. If asked to say grace, decline politely without making a big fuss over it. It would be very rude for one of the family to call you on it.
posted by muddgirl at 1:03 PM on October 20, 2006

In the same sorts of situations, I just sit quietly during the prayer or grace, but I don't participate.

This comment makes it clear what I should do (if I understand the comment correctly)

I don't think you do understand it correctly. The comment is in reference to an atheist leading a prayer - that's a bit different.
posted by amro at 1:06 PM on October 20, 2006

I think you did the right thing. Just be quiet, and let them do their thing. (This comment brought to you by a "non-theist".)
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 1:08 PM on October 20, 2006

Just stare at the table. I mean, you'll essentially be in a situation where no one else is going to be interacting with each other for a while, and you don't want to be rude by making a scene or doing anything that is clearly not praying(dancing, whistling, table percussion, etc.), so pretty much it's just non-participation and inactivity for you. Sit and stare at the table and think about whatever for a few minutes.
posted by ElfWord at 1:09 PM on October 20, 2006

I use the time to compile my mental shopping list or think of what I'll be doing after the dinner. There's no reason to interrupt what they're doing if it brings them comfort.
posted by nadawi at 1:09 PM on October 20, 2006

For what it's worth I think you did the right thing. Were they to ask you what you pray for, I would suggest being honest and admitting that you aren't praying at all, but just observing a moment of silence while they prayed. But there is no need to bring up your lack of faith and make an issue of it. You aren't being a hypocrite or tacitly approving their behavior, you are merely allowing them to express their faith without disturbing them.

Imagine that you were religious but followed a different faith. Would you make a big deal out of your differences and insist on saying your own prayer after they said theres? Probably not. This is no different. You do your thing (sit quietly, sing a song to yourself, make a mental to-do list, whatever) and they'll do theirs. And we'll all get by in a nice, polite society.
posted by oddman at 1:10 PM on October 20, 2006 [1 favorite]

How about think about spending the time to sit quietly and think about what you're thankful for? You don't have to be thanking Anybody or Anyone in particular to be appreciative for warmth/good food/good friends.
posted by one_bean at 1:17 PM on October 20, 2006

I also find myself in the same sort of position from time to time. I send my child to a private pre-shcool, and there is prayer at the Christmas program, etc. I just look down or in front of me, and politely sit still during prayer. Sometimes I close my eyes to think of other things, sometimes not. There is no need for comment or explanation. You did the right thing.
posted by LoriFLA at 1:18 PM on October 20, 2006

As an ex-Catholic, I put my hands on my lap, bow my head and think about whatever I feel like. I think your behavior was perfectly reasonable. As a guest, your obligation is to avoid causing your hosts any embarassment without compromising your beliefs.
posted by justkevin at 1:18 PM on October 20, 2006

I don't think you do understand it correctly. The comment is in reference to an atheist leading a prayer - that's a bit different.

Actually I did catch that; I guess I read too much into the comment to think that perhaps this person would also be offended by a "mole" mock-praying, as it were.

What actually caught me off-guard were the children, who started gigglling when they saw me with my eyes open, and even started saying "Mom! He's not praying... " sort of comments, though they were promptly ignored.
posted by war wrath of wraith at 1:18 PM on October 20, 2006

I can't answer what you should do, but personally, I just keep quiet, head un-bowed, eyes open, observing.
posted by GeekAnimator at 1:21 PM on October 20, 2006

What if someone you respected, and who usually spoke meaningfully, said something you found to be meaningless? Would you stand up and call them out on it? Or would you remain quiet and let it pass?

There's no right answer - what you do in that situation has to do with your personality - but I'd suggest that the polite thing to do would be remain quiet and let it pass.
posted by ikkyu2 at 1:22 PM on October 20, 2006

I would just try to mimick what the others were doing physically -- so, close your eyes if they all have their eyes closed, and bow your head -- and, as someone said "Observe a moment of silence."

Which was code in my public middle school for the principal-led moment of prayer every morning, anyway, so I doubt it'll draw any attention or anger.
posted by occhiblu at 1:24 PM on October 20, 2006

You did the right thing (by bowing your head and being quiet). The other adults did the right thing (by ignoring the kids). The kids were the only ones who weren't doing the right thing (by not praying AND rudely giggling at guests), and one hopes that they were set straight by their elders once the guests had gone. The kids don't know their manners (yet), you do.
posted by dness2 at 1:26 PM on October 20, 2006 [1 favorite]

Use the moment to consider just how fortunate you are today to have food to eat, clothes to wear, and friends who invite you to share with them. Respect your hosts' desire to thank their deity of choice for providence. If asked, be honest about your own beliefs but polite about theirs. If it makes you excessively uncomfortable, excuse yourself for a few moments and be prepared to explain later, as some might find it rude.

Breaking out the NYT crossword is discouraged.
posted by leapfrog at 1:29 PM on October 20, 2006 [1 favorite]

I choose not to bow my head during my moment of silence, as I view that as an outward symbol of participation. The added bonus is that the only people who know you aren't bowing your head are other people who aren't, so it's like a secret atheist handshake.


Now what's really awkward are those families that hold hands during grace, because then I feel like I'm somehow breaking the circuit.
posted by RobotHero at 1:30 PM on October 20, 2006

The holding of the hands can be awkward. My grandparents say an extended prayer before dinner. I accept the hands of those on either side and stare at my plate thinking of other things. When the prayer is done the hands are released and while everyone else crosses themselves I put my hands in my lap. I don't mind holding their hands as they are my family. I suppose I wouldn't mind holding the hands of a family I was eating with that was not mine as well.
posted by Constant Reader at 1:43 PM on October 20, 2006

I agree that you did the right thing. I usually bow my head a bit & look at my plate or my hands. My parents like to do the hand-holding thing. I participate because I view it as a "family moment" & it means a lot to my parents. I think it's a little bit rude to do that when there are dinner guests who don't expect it, but if you're really close with your hosts, you could just view it as a bonding "we consider you part of the family" moment. It's definitely a little harder to decide appropriate action in that situation.

As for the kids giggling when they saw your eyes open, doesn't that mean that they were peeking too?
posted by good for you! at 1:54 PM on October 20, 2006

I guess I read too much into the comment to think that perhaps this person would also be offended by a "mole" mock-praying, as it were.

They'd most likely be pretty pleased they could get someone un-saved on the right track. It's not like you were secretly praising Satan.
posted by Gamblor at 2:00 PM on October 20, 2006

Get a jump on the others and start spooning the food onto your plate, or if you've already been served, dig in.

Ok, not really. There's nothing wrong with just sitting there quietly letting them do their thing.
posted by Durin's Bane at 2:05 PM on October 20, 2006

The kids were the only ones who weren't doing the right thing (by not praying AND rudely giggling at guests), and one hopes that they were set straight by their elders once the guests had gone. The kids don't know their manners (yet), you do.

As for the kids giggling when they saw your eyes open, doesn't that mean that they were peeking too?

I should probably have mentioned that they were very young kids (4-5 yo).

Thanks everyone for your quick responses! I'll quietly thank Metafilter the next time I find myself in the same situation.
posted by war wrath of wraith at 2:12 PM on October 20, 2006

"It's not like you were secretly praising Satan."

Because of course praising Satan without telling everybody would be rude.

I wonder how many folks who've read my comments here would picture me taking an opportunity to denounce their superstition at them? Or maybe quote from Monty Python:

Chaplain: O Lord…
Congregation: O Lord…
Chaplain: … ooh, You are so big…
Congregation: … ooh, You are so big…
Chaplain: … so absolutely huge.
Congregation: … so absolutely huge.
Chaplain: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.
Congregation: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.
Chaplain: Forgive us, O Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying, and…
Congregation: … and barefaced flattery.
Chaplain: But You're so strong and, well, just so… super.
Congregation: Fantastic!
Chaplain: Amen.
Congregation: Amen.
posted by davy at 2:16 PM on October 20, 2006

I agree with everyone else, you did the right thing. And yes, it feels awkward, but here's the secret: it feels awkward even if you believe in that shit. I know, because I used to, and it did even then.

Now what's really awkward are those families that hold hands during grace

I'll bet! I'm glad I've never had to deal with that. Feh.
posted by languagehat at 2:16 PM on October 20, 2006 [1 favorite]

At the same time, I wasn't going to pretend to be praying, either.

The only way to pretend to pray is to place your hands together, flat palm to flat palm, and cross your thumbs. At the end, actually say "Amen."

Anything short of that (especially folding your hands and looking down) is not a fake prayer. Shoot, I do that much when I accidentally get caught looking at a pretty girl on the bus.
posted by 23skidoo at 2:25 PM on October 20, 2006

it's grace, not a shotgun baptism. maybe it seems like you're being asked to say the pledge of allegiance to jesus, but saying grace is basically a family moment, not a high religious ceremony -- and as such, you're not really being asked to participate in anything that should make you feel uncomfortable as an athiest.

just bow your head and go along to get along.
posted by sonofslim at 2:27 PM on October 20, 2006 [2 favorites]

In my family, the old folks always say grace, and everyone else mostly sits silently. However, if it goes on longer than a minute or so, the prayer is considered to be grandstanding or "making like a pharisee" and it's then appropriate to sigh, briefly drum your fingers on the table, or clear your throat.

We used to get asked occasionally to say grace, but it became kinda a joke. One of us would say "Lordblessthisfoodamen", and the other people would effusively praise the prayer for doing such a good job. If you took more than 5 seconds, you'd be teased about how devout you had become. The old folks eventually quit asking us.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 2:40 PM on October 20, 2006 [1 favorite]

OP: you did the right thing. Doing what you can to participate physically short of compromising your religious beliefs is the proper thing to do.

The last two girlfriends I've taken home have both been non-theists and took completely different routes. GF-A thought the holding hands part was too connected to the religious aspect of it, so she insisted on standing in the circle around the table (we stand behind our chairs) but not holding my hand (or my sister's). She was doomed from here on out. GF-B (the current one) did the hand holding thing and just gave me a goofy "here we go" type of look when the prayer got started. Even though she was the only one who did not say "amen" and one of the few who did not "cross" herself, participating to the extent she did went a long way, especially with my parents who knew she wouldn't be participating, spiritually.

So do what you can. My family just wants to see how people will fit into our little traditions/rituals. If sig. others stick out during these things, the symbolism of this can impact their opinions (negatively) in other situations. Maybe it isn't fair (it isn't), but it's my family.
posted by littlelebowskiurbanachiever at 2:48 PM on October 20, 2006

The view that I take is that, even as an athiest, you are probably thanking someone for the food and watching your back, even if it was your host. You don't have to say it out loud, but you can use the time they use to thank their god to silently thank them for their friendship.

As an athiest, how do you feel about a "piggy back" prayer? What I mean is, your friend is a believer. You are not. However, would it be against your beliefs to ask whoever he is asking to watch out for him? Kind of like shining the flashlight under the bed for your kids or pretending that you shooed away the monsters when they aren't really there.

If nothing else, you don't have to pray, but you could use that time to think about what your friend means to you and what you mean to them. Meditate briefly rather than pray. Some of my deepest thoughts have come in those moments.
posted by slavlin at 2:50 PM on October 20, 2006

As a gracious guest, it behooves you to respect the family's traditions*. Silent non-participation and non-disruption is the right action.

Of course, when you entertain them, they are the guests and shouldn't say a word when you don't say grace before eating. Ironically, if they are boorish enough to say something at that time, it would again fall to you as a gracious host to make them comfortable.

For me, though, that would be ample reason to never have them back.

*Within reasonable limits, of course.
posted by Crosius at 2:50 PM on October 20, 2006

I choose not to bow my head during my moment of silence, as I view that as an outward symbol of participation.

As do I. I think that it is incumbent upon the host to advise guests that they say grace at the table, in order to give me the opportunity to decline to participate. That is, to go home, after thanking your host for the invitation and apologizing for the necessity of your absence.

If they do not provide you with this courtesy, I certainly wouldn't start eating until they're done with their prayer, nor would I interrupt the proceedings by talking or sighing or getting up from the table.

But I don't think it is your responsibility to be observant in any way, including bowing your head.
posted by solid-one-love at 3:02 PM on October 20, 2006

I work at a non-profit youth center where for some reasons the kids insist on praying before we eat our communal dinners. I usually use this a 20 second head start to load my plate up before the hungry little theists take all the food.

When they complain, I just shrug it off as the "atheist's advantage".

funny side story, once on a cross country flight one of the youth I work with and get along with very well, refused to sit by me on the plane just in case god would chose that moment to strike me down. I didnt bother to point out to here that any act of god likely to affect my well being on that plane ride, would be bad news for everyone on the flight no matter where they were sitting.
posted by jlowen at 3:04 PM on October 20, 2006 [2 favorites]

Why must you encourage these people? There were probably children present, for the love of pete. Undoubtedly, they could use a role model who isn't a wack job. Just start eating. You could probably be ready for seconds by the time they're done with a 4-5 minute prayer. How to be polite? Chew with your mouth closed.
posted by found missing at 3:06 PM on October 20, 2006

I had a similar experience when I attended my cousin's wedding 25 years ago. I was an atheist, it was a Mennonite church, and my red pony tail was down to my belt by then.

Everyone was polite; I got a few strange looks, but I was wearing a suit and didn't make a scene, and no one seemed too scandalized by it. I have no doubt that I was the subject of considerable gossip later, but no one gave me any trouble at the time.

During the actual ceremony there were a couple of prayers, and I bowed my head and waited for them to end.

There's no reason to wear atheism on your sleeve in those kinds of situations, and no reason to make a scene. Just wait and be quiet. Anything else would be rude.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 3:06 PM on October 20, 2006

I honestly don't understand the idea of deliberately ignoring the desires of other people to pray in their own way. Pausing long enough for some people to pray is not something which imposes undue hardship on someone who does not wish to pray, unless you are actually in physical pain from starvation.

In a forced sharing, such as school or the workplace, I think it is out of line. In a situation where anyone could choose to not participate, then I think the considerate thing to do is to allow people to be theirselves. Do whatever suits you and is least intrusive or offensive to your sensibilities.
posted by slavlin at 3:17 PM on October 20, 2006

Prayer, if it's being done properly, is simply a ritual encouraging quiet contemplation. When done at appropriate times, such as right before eating, it's calming and beneficial. Theists actually get less benefit from the practice than atheists, because the worldview their contemplation is grounded in is delusional.

If you want to benefit at least as much from the grace as your hosts, spend the time it takes for your host to say grace in quiet contemplation of all the things that had to happen in order to make your meal possible.
posted by flabdablet at 3:50 PM on October 20, 2006

Be a good guest and avoid seeming a hypocrite: Quietly excuse yourself and get a jump on the dishes.
posted by rob511 at 3:59 PM on October 20, 2006

My family is pretty religious. I'm not, nor is my girlfriend. I just kinda space out when they do the prayer thing. My girlfriend reports that she thinks about the kinkiest sex she can imagine. It's a silent "fuck you" to having to wait even longer before eating.
posted by notsnot at 4:05 PM on October 20, 2006 [1 favorite]

Mr. Gunn : One of us would say "Lordblessthisfoodamen", and the other people would effusively praise the prayer for doing such a good job. If you took more than 5 seconds, you'd be teased about how devout you had become.

Growing up I attended a Catholic school. As a matter of course we were expected to say grace. We got really good at it:

BlessusOhLordfortheseThygiftswhichweareabouttorecievefroThybountythroughChristourLordamen.

Curious to see if I 'still had it' I just timed myself: 2.25 seconds. Booya!
posted by quin at 4:24 PM on October 20, 2006

I just bow my head and silently wait for the grace to finish. It's not like Charles Darwin is going to be terribly offended if I do that, and it doesn't mean I'm pledging allegiance to my friends' invisible cloud being. To me it seems simply a matter of respecting my hosts' hospitality for sharing their food and table with me. And yes, there were kids involved here too, but they didn't seem to notice or care.

Thinking that silently acquiescing in the face of someone else's ritual somehow "taints" your atheism seems to me to reflect exactly the kind of mystical thinking that we purport to reject. The atheist ethical code is supposed to come from basic respect for other humans and other beings, and sometimes shutting up when there's nothing to be gained by making a fuss is an important part of that respect.
posted by matildaben at 5:01 PM on October 20, 2006 [2 favorites]

What maltidaben said.

I just sit and bow my head without participating in the speech. I also do the sit-and-stand hokey pokey on those rare occasions I attend church services, but don't participate in the doxology, lord's prayer, or recitation of any creed.

My belief is that religion is not just about gods, but about community and culture. When I'm a guest in another culture, I feel obligated not to give unnecessary offense.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 5:46 PM on October 20, 2006

FWIW, I am a Christian, and the Pledge of Allegiance bothers me much in the same way communal prayer bothers athiests. I can respect the whole "unity/pride for the homeland" thing, but there is just something about pledging allegiance to a flag that really bothers me, as if God has any favorite nation (and I am guessing that if God does, it probably isn't America).

So what do I do? I stand there with my hand over my heart but do not say the words. I don't make a scene, but I am prepared (in a kind and polite way) to explain myself if asked.

The strangest times for me are when it is Scout Sunday in my church, which is the one and only time we say the pledge. I stand there, and I probably am the only one not saying the pledge.

And I am the pastor.

Being willing to stand outside the majority over a matter of conscience is one of the things that makes America good. Being willing and able to do so in a way that is full of grace, understanding, tolerance, and kindness is what makes all of us great.
posted by 4ster at 5:49 PM on October 20, 2006 [3 favorites]

I agree that you did the right thing (awkward as it feels at the time), and it's pretty much what I do in those situations. Whoever's house it is gets the say in how things go I reckon, I'll be nice while you say grace at your house and you don't get to say grace when you're at mine.

I don't necessarily agree with the 'be thankful' advice. But then I'm not only an atheist, but generally ungrateful too. Instead I quietly think about sex while they're saying whatever it is they say. This way we all eat happy.
posted by shelleycat at 7:04 PM on October 20, 2006

One awesome part of atheism is that you don't go to atheist-hell just for minimally playing along. So, minimally play along! What do you have to lose?

You might even hear something interesting and thought-provoking about what those other people believe.
posted by mendel at 7:54 PM on October 20, 2006 [3 favorites]

I'm (nominally) Catholic, so take with a grain of salt, but if I were an atheist I'd just do what everyone else does. 'When in Rome,' you know. As far as holding hands, I don't see the big deal. God or no God, holding hands is still a tradition that doesn't strike me as being obnoxiously religious. As far as I know there's no law saying that atheists have to be assholes.

One awesome part of atheism is that you don't go to atheist-hell just for minimally playing along.

I love that.
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 8:40 PM on October 20, 2006

Just bow your head a little. That's all I ever do.

quin: That reminds me of when I was growing up, playing soccer for a Catholic girls' team. This was our pregame pep talk:

hailmaryfullofgracethelordiswiththeeblessedartthouamongstwomen
blessedartthefruitofthywombjesusholymarymotherofgod
prayforussinnersnowatthehourofourdeathamen.

Who's gonna win? WE ARE!
posted by limeonaire at 11:46 PM on October 20, 2006

Be respectful. Don't take offense. I think it's important that believers respect those who don't, and that those who don't respect those who do. None of us has any certain answers -- that's part of being human. Too many problems are caused because people don't have respect for those that disagree with them, and take offense to easily when none is meant.

Speaking as a Christian, I honestly don't care whether you're an atheist or not. I'm not going to think more or less of you because of your beliefs. If you come to my house and don't want to say grace, that's cool (but please hold hands in the circle, because the human connection is really important to us). If you invite me over, I'll either give a silent thanks before eating or might just skip it...God isn't going to strike me down for not thanking him for every morsel of food I eat.

Whenever I'm asked to say grace (and I think it's very impolite for guests to be asked to say grace!), I'm invariably tempted to say a very to-the-point grace I learned in college:

Good drink, good meat, good God let's eat!
posted by lhauser at 9:48 AM on October 21, 2006