Industrial Chemical Usage: 101
October 7, 2006 1:02 PM Subscribe
Help me learn everything(!) about sulfuric and nitric acid: production, purity and distribution
I'm charged with learning all I can about sulfuric acid and nitric acid for a startup I am being drawn into.
I need to know:
-Who produces it
-Who buys it
-Where it is produced
-What purities they use for what purposes
-Who to talk with about purchasing it from us(initially small quantities)
-Handling and distribution info
-Are there "Alternative" uses forming or on the horizon?
Textbook and/or journal recomendations would be highly useful as well. Perhaps also university departments that work closely with this subject. maybe a footrub and some grapes, too?
With these(especially sulfuric acid) being so widely used, I'm getting way too much chaff/old-info/highschool-info with my searches. The vetting process for the sources is also something I'm finding tedious, especially not being familiar with the industry. I've found a fair bit, but I need to be comprehensive and ask any of you familiar with this topic to fill in the areas I have inevitably missed. After this round of web crawling I will head over to the library and go through the ref area for the info I won't find on the web.
I'm charged with learning all I can about sulfuric acid and nitric acid for a startup I am being drawn into.
I need to know:
-Who produces it
-Who buys it
-Where it is produced
-What purities they use for what purposes
-Who to talk with about purchasing it from us(initially small quantities)
-Handling and distribution info
-Are there "Alternative" uses forming or on the horizon?
Textbook and/or journal recomendations would be highly useful as well. Perhaps also university departments that work closely with this subject. maybe a footrub and some grapes, too?
With these(especially sulfuric acid) being so widely used, I'm getting way too much chaff/old-info/highschool-info with my searches. The vetting process for the sources is also something I'm finding tedious, especially not being familiar with the industry. I've found a fair bit, but I need to be comprehensive and ask any of you familiar with this topic to fill in the areas I have inevitably missed. After this round of web crawling I will head over to the library and go through the ref area for the info I won't find on the web.
Response by poster: Thanks galimatias, I appreciate you erring on the side of safety. Rest assured this is all on the up and up and I will have nothing to do with actually handling any of these. The lead man is a chemical engineer, though not intimately familiar with these issues. My role will be one of information and compliance.
The acids will be a product of a process for cleaning SOx and NOx from combustion emissions, primarily coal plant emissions. The company, though on the back burner for a few years, has patents, a previous cooperative agreement with the DOE and involvement with numerous organizations such as Bechtel, Arizona Public Service and Parsons E&C. We are attempting to revive the company in light of current regulatory states, deregulation and the general interest in clean(er) energy.
I thank you for your offer of offline asistance and will mail you shortly. I hope that didn't scare everyone else off with your(understandable) caution. More brains means less chance of me creating a giant, unmanageable toxic spill(kidding, of course).
posted by a_green_man at 2:35 PM on October 7, 2006
The acids will be a product of a process for cleaning SOx and NOx from combustion emissions, primarily coal plant emissions. The company, though on the back burner for a few years, has patents, a previous cooperative agreement with the DOE and involvement with numerous organizations such as Bechtel, Arizona Public Service and Parsons E&C. We are attempting to revive the company in light of current regulatory states, deregulation and the general interest in clean(er) energy.
I thank you for your offer of offline asistance and will mail you shortly. I hope that didn't scare everyone else off with your(understandable) caution. More brains means less chance of me creating a giant, unmanageable toxic spill(kidding, of course).
posted by a_green_man at 2:35 PM on October 7, 2006
a_green_man:
As galimathas very politely pointed out, anyone asking for information about dangerous chemicals and/or precursors to illegal substances is going to get very guarded answers from anyone who actually knows enough to answer your questions.
I can make one suggestion, though. You should be be able to get answers to most of the questions above by contacting one of the major supply companies. They will probably thouroughly screen you for "need to know" and provide you with definitive answers. They may even be able to get you in contact with competent professionals to help you with your project.
When you contact them, it woud be best to avoid jokes about toxic spills :o
posted by SteveTheRed at 4:06 PM on October 7, 2006
As galimathas very politely pointed out, anyone asking for information about dangerous chemicals and/or precursors to illegal substances is going to get very guarded answers from anyone who actually knows enough to answer your questions.
I can make one suggestion, though. You should be be able to get answers to most of the questions above by contacting one of the major supply companies. They will probably thouroughly screen you for "need to know" and provide you with definitive answers. They may even be able to get you in contact with competent professionals to help you with your project.
When you contact them, it woud be best to avoid jokes about toxic spills :o
posted by SteveTheRed at 4:06 PM on October 7, 2006
Best answer: This page answers many of your questions. It is a list of chemicals; the three you're interested in are sulfuric acid (virgin), sulfuric acid (smelter), and nitric acid.
posted by ikkyu2 at 4:13 PM on October 7, 2006
posted by ikkyu2 at 4:13 PM on October 7, 2006
Best answer: The journal for the production numbers and usage distribution is the Chemical and Engineering News. They publish usage trends for many industrial chemicals. Sulphuric acid usage volumes are also tracked as an economic indicator by some financial types.
Both chemicals are used for many, many thousands (if not millions) of processes. Getting an exhaustive list will take you a lifetime. You need to narrow your field of interest a bit more than that. Your question is like asking "what's plastic used for?"
For purchasing, contact Sigma-Aldrich or Fisher Scientific, as you appear to be US-based. As galimatias implies, they won't ship to you unless you can prove to them that you are legitimate. These chemicals also have several uses which the authorities take a lot of interest in.
For safety, you need to look up your state and federal regs requirements. They are quite strict for chemical handling and you will open yourselves to some severe legal-lawsuittery if you don't excercise some dilligence. Look for someone who will offer a WHMIS (Workplace Hazardous Materials Information System) and chemical safety course to your techs. For handling acids you will also need some infrastructure: acid cabinets, bottle transporters, PPE, fume hoods, reagent and waste storage. Finally you will need a site safety plan (see the EPA website AND talk to your local fire department) if you want to use or store a significant amount on your worksite.
That's not everything you'll need (disposal?), but it will get you started.
posted by bonehead at 9:45 PM on October 7, 2006
Both chemicals are used for many, many thousands (if not millions) of processes. Getting an exhaustive list will take you a lifetime. You need to narrow your field of interest a bit more than that. Your question is like asking "what's plastic used for?"
For purchasing, contact Sigma-Aldrich or Fisher Scientific, as you appear to be US-based. As galimatias implies, they won't ship to you unless you can prove to them that you are legitimate. These chemicals also have several uses which the authorities take a lot of interest in.
For safety, you need to look up your state and federal regs requirements. They are quite strict for chemical handling and you will open yourselves to some severe legal-lawsuittery if you don't excercise some dilligence. Look for someone who will offer a WHMIS (Workplace Hazardous Materials Information System) and chemical safety course to your techs. For handling acids you will also need some infrastructure: acid cabinets, bottle transporters, PPE, fume hoods, reagent and waste storage. Finally you will need a site safety plan (see the EPA website AND talk to your local fire department) if you want to use or store a significant amount on your worksite.
That's not everything you'll need (disposal?), but it will get you started.
posted by bonehead at 9:45 PM on October 7, 2006
Best answer: Oh yeah also, the first place to look for anything chemical: The
Kirk-Othmer Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology, published by Wiley. There's a cut-down version on line (somewhere---I've got the link at work and can't seem to find it right now), but the paper version is much more complete.
posted by bonehead at 10:22 PM on October 7, 2006
Kirk-Othmer Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology, published by Wiley. There's a cut-down version on line (somewhere---I've got the link at work and can't seem to find it right now), but the paper version is much more complete.
posted by bonehead at 10:22 PM on October 7, 2006
These chemicals are extremely widely used. Asking for market information about them should raise no suspicions. Try here.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 10:56 PM on October 7, 2006
posted by Mr. Gunn at 10:56 PM on October 7, 2006
Response by poster: SteveTheRed: I understand your point and it's well taken. Stating "everything" and being relatively vague can hurt my research. I really need to work on my phrasing. Thanks for the heads up. I admit that I also need to discard those kinds of jokes before they hit the page or my lips.
ikkyu2: Thanks for that link. Very concise even if a little out of date.
bonehead: That's great, the jounal is helpful and I would have never found that encyclopedia on my own. As far as handling, etc, we won't actually be touching any of these ourselves, but I definately need to thoroughly understand the process and playing field.
Mr. Gunn: That link looks great. I'll dive into it later. And you hit it on the head, I'm mainly looking for the "W" questions. Nothing about the nefarious uses(jebus! do I even want to know?).
While I have some of you here, can you recommend any quality blogs, RSS feeds, etc dealing with energy in general, perhaps even with an emphasis on coal(a few I've seen linked to for coal were dead)? How about any subscription databases I should know about that would have otherwise unfindable papers/articles?
Thank you all for this, keep it coming if you think of anything else, though I'm definately grateful for what you've already provided.
posted by a_green_man at 11:39 PM on October 7, 2006
ikkyu2: Thanks for that link. Very concise even if a little out of date.
bonehead: That's great, the jounal is helpful and I would have never found that encyclopedia on my own. As far as handling, etc, we won't actually be touching any of these ourselves, but I definately need to thoroughly understand the process and playing field.
Mr. Gunn: That link looks great. I'll dive into it later. And you hit it on the head, I'm mainly looking for the "W" questions. Nothing about the nefarious uses(jebus! do I even want to know?).
While I have some of you here, can you recommend any quality blogs, RSS feeds, etc dealing with energy in general, perhaps even with an emphasis on coal(a few I've seen linked to for coal were dead)? How about any subscription databases I should know about that would have otherwise unfindable papers/articles?
Thank you all for this, keep it coming if you think of anything else, though I'm definately grateful for what you've already provided.
posted by a_green_man at 11:39 PM on October 7, 2006
Nothing about the nefarious uses(jebus! do I even want to know?).
Both your drug enforcement and counter-terror people keep close watches on sulphuric and nitric acid use, fyi.
posted by bonehead at 7:48 AM on October 8, 2006
Both your drug enforcement and counter-terror people keep close watches on sulphuric and nitric acid use, fyi.
posted by bonehead at 7:48 AM on October 8, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
For general information on handling, emergency response, and hazards, see the MSDS (Materials Safety Data Sheets). These are free and widely available through government sources and commercial manufactures. Every commercial chemical is required to have a comprehensive MSDS, so they are quite easy to come by.
Sulfuric acid and nitric acid in industrial quantities and concentrations are best left to seasoned experts because of the physical and environmental dangers they pose. I hope that you are working with more experienced engineers during this startup, because (no offense) it sounds like you are quite inexperienced. If this is the case and you are trying to learn the basics as you begin your career, I'd be happy to provide you some good answers and resources via e-mail (in my profile). It's always nice to bring in new people to the profession!
I'm going to refrain from posting too much information on the chemicals where all can read them . . .
posted by galimatias at 1:33 PM on October 7, 2006