Comments on: What creates the best appearance?

Question: What creates the best appearance?

zardoz — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 19:09:59 -0800

When applying for a job from, say, a newspaper or internet classified ad, should I send my resume with references, or should I wait until I'm asked for references? I'm thinking the former is better, though it can possibly hint at a bit of desperation to get the job. Also, should I write a cover letter as a separate Word doc, or just write it in the body of the email itself?

By: troybob

troybob — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 19:22:57 -0800

personally, i wouldn't give references with the resume submission...resumes these days are being harvested for all kinds of info, and i wouldn't be comfortable throwing out any but my own...

'references available on request' is pretty standard, and i can't imagine an employer would mark you down for it...

...also, if they contact you for references, at least you know you're being considered...

..i'm not sure of the standard for email submission...i've known people who will include it as text-only in the body of the email and also will attach it as an .rtf document...

By: awegz

awegz — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 19:25:13 -0800

I don't typically include references unless the ad asks for them. If they ask for references up front, your resume will probably get tossed if the they aren't included.

By: dgeiser13

dgeiser13 — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 20:05:35 -0800

If they ask for references I include them. If they don't ask for them then I don't include them.

In addition I always write my cover letter in the body of the e-mail and I attach my resume as a Microsoft Word document (unless they ask for it in a different format).

By: JohnnyGunn

JohnnyGunn — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 20:08:07 -0800

I write a shorter cover letter in my email and then a more detailed cover as a seperate file attachment in addition to the resume.

I send them out as pdf files too so that I am not as concerned about them either getting edited , changed or incorrectly formatted.

By: awegz

awegz — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 20:09:30 -0800

I second PDFing your resume, if possible. I received a resume from a candidate as a Word document, and when I turned track changes on I could see everything she had done to her resume before turning it in.

By: bevedog

bevedog — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 20:12:16 -0800

It has been a long time since I did any hiring (and that was for $5/hr jobs at a bookstore), so I'll bow to anyone with greater authority who may comment after me. But I'd say:

1. Send 'em what they ask for. If the ad isn't clear, I'd go with troybob's "available upon request."

2. I would absolutely write a cover letter separate from the email. Chances are that they will be printing out your application materials, and they might not think to print out the email. Even if they do print it out, the email may look a little cheesy next to another applicant's well-designed cover letter.

Good luck!

By: bda1972

bda1972 — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 20:22:11 -0800

Never send references with your resume. It does look desperate. It's like asking a girl for her phone number and then immediately asking her out. You have to wait until she says she's interested first. There's a certain order to things. Plus, it's just not the way things are done. You only want to stand out in a good way. Everything I've ever read says not to include "references available upon request" on your resume because it's assumed.

As for the cover letter; I would think you could go either way. I would probably include it as an attachment if I was applying through email. However, most HR folk will print your email and put in your file in place of a cover letter.

You also mentioned sending your cover letter as a Word document. That's a bad idea IMHO. For one thing, you're assuming the employer has Microsoft Office. Secondly, formatting can get screwed up between different versions of Word. And I certainly wouldn't feel confident if they opened my Word document in a suite like Open Office. I've seen plenty of resumes (and reports, quotes, ect.) that looked like crap on my PC. I convert everything to PDF before sending it to anyone. That's the only guarantee it will arrive looking like your original document and almost everyone (in business at least) will have the free Acrobat Reader. Here's a free online PDF converter if you don't have the full version of Acrobat: PDFOnline If you must send it as a Word doc, I believe you can lock it with the redaction add-in for Word available on Microsoft's site.

By: orthogonality

orthogonality — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 20:45:32 -0800

I've been looking for a new job lately (email in profile!), dealing mostly with recruiters. Admittedly, hat's somewhat different than where you're applying directly for a particular position you're sure you want.

My policy is to only give out references after the recruiter has proposed a specific position, I've agreed to interview for it, and the recruiter is ready to actually submit my name.

I get a lot of calls/emails form recruiters. Some of them are just trying to build their own "stable" of resumes; some are talking about specific positions, but ones I don't want. Many of them want references "up front".

But that could hurt me: my references (so I'm told) talk me up very highly, and I don't want to inconvenience them -- and piss them off -- by causing them to get lots and lots of calls, especially if it's for a job I'll never actually end up interviewing for.

As I explain to the recruiters, my references aren't going to be nearly as ecstatic about me if I'm the reason they're getting interrupted by strangers five times a day. By showing I value the time my references spend talking me up, and that I won't waste their time, I get better references.

By: ChasFile

ChasFile — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 21:23:19 -0800

Many larger corporations won't let their recruiters even open attachments, as the danger posed by viruses is just too high, especially in the case of Word .docs and macros. Even at those places that have the freedom to open attachments, I've found that .doc == ameteur is a pretty pervasive prejudice. It's the digital equivalent of printing out your resume on crappy, lightweight copy paper with a giant Xerox watermark right in the middle. It just screams "I don't care enough to take the time to make sure my resume looks it best, and if that's the kind of attitude I have to my own personal work product, just imagine the kind I'll put out for you!"

The best I've option I've found is to make a text-only version of your resume to simply paste into the body of your email, because you absolutely GARAUNTEE that everyone will get it, and there many job websites out there that will only take your resume and that way you can use the same one all over. Second best bet is to post a version online, bonus points if its at your personal website, which allows them to poke around and learn more.

By: scheptech

scheptech — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 21:48:23 -0800

You mention specifically internet or newspaper ads. You shouldn't give out your references' personal contact information until you know more about who you're dealing with, so no, I wouldn't offer references until after a first interview.

By: apple scruff

apple scruff — Tue, 03 Oct 2006 21:54:33 -0800

Don't supply references until you're asked. Don't even bother taking up space on your resume by saying "references available on request"...no kidding! It's totally superfluous; obviously if they ask for references you're going to supply them. Don't waste words on anything but necessities.

By: cornflake

cornflake — Wed, 04 Oct 2006 01:05:01 -0800

Bearing in mind that I do this for a living:

Covering letter should always always always be in the body of the email.

I would include (ie, scan and attach) references if they were exceptionally good, and specifically relevant to the job you were applying for. Even then, only one. Two at the most.

Don't forget to follow up with a phone call a few days later to 'make sure the Resume was received'. People hire people, not emails.

By: aubilenon

aubilenon — Wed, 04 Oct 2006 01:18:30 -0800

I've seen plenty of places require .doc files; usually these are recruiters who want to edit out your personal contact info so that their customers aren't tempted to do an end run around them.

By: syzygy

syzygy — Wed, 04 Oct 2006 02:00:41 -0800

Here's how I do it:

* No references included
* Short introductory cover letter in email body (where I found the position advertised, short explanation of why I think I'm the right person for the job)
* More detailed, formal, position-specific cover letter as Word or PDF attachment

That's worked extremely well for me in the past -- it's never taken more than four weeks for me to go from beginning a job search to accepting the best of several positions offerred to me.

I suggest that you think about it like this: The mail body should be used primarily to address the first person who sees your submission - motivate them to look at the rest of your materials. The attached cover letter is aimed at the decision-makers who may never see your initial email. They may only see your submission as a hardcopy. The formal, attached coverletter is for those people.

Aside: I worked as a recruiter 8 years ago, before I moved into IT. I handled thousands of resumes and cover letters in that capacity. My personal resume submission style grew out of that experience - seeing what worked and what didn't.

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Wed, 04 Oct 2006 07:17:46 -0800

I have both plain text and pdf version of my resume available. I prefer PDF but have the text version on tap if the job requires it or the application is through a web form. Even if a position asks for a .doc I just send them a word rtf converted copy of my plain text version. To create PDFs I use the utility PDF Creator. It installs a system printer that generates PDFs from any program that can print.

I've always attached cover and resume separately. If I'm emailing the information the email is sent plain text with attachments and the body of the email is brief stating the position I'm applying for (including reference to the posting if there is one) and details on how to contact me (voice and email) if the attachments don't come through.

By: DenOfSizer

DenOfSizer — Wed, 04 Oct 2006 08:56:27 -0800

I'd make the cover letter in the email identical to the PDF version you send. Agreed re not sending out refs unless asked - you want to minimize the fuss your refs will have to go thru, and you only want them to take serious inquiries only.

By: dgeiser13

dgeiser13 — Wed, 04 Oct 2006 10:02:36 -0800

> Don't even bother taking up space on your resume by saying "references available on request"...no kidding!

I did this as well. I don't even mention "references available on request" on my resume anymore. It saved me a few lines and kept my resume down to 2 pages.