My short, solidly-built FTM friend needs office attire!
September 21, 2006 9:42 PM Subscribe
I've just been asked to help a friend shop for a business wardrobe, but it's going to be a bit tricky.
My pal, a recent college grad, just quit a miserable job and is about to start looking for clerical temp gigs. For the past few years, nearly 100% of his clothing has come from Army Surplus stores, but BTUs and tank boots will not cut it in an office environment. He meeds to buy some decent threads, and has come to me for help with the shopping. Eek!
I am quite good at buying clothes for myself, but I have no idea where to start with him. Here are the issues, as I see them:
(1) He is transgendered (FTM), but he has had zero surgery and no hormones. Also, he doesn't like to bind his chest because it's unconfortable. This, coupled with the fact that he is fairly short (5'3"-ish) means that people tend to read him as a soft butch instead of as a guy. I would therefore like to find professional-looking clothes and shoes that signal maleness as clearly as possible. Any suggestions for brands, etc? The shopping will probably occur in Seattle, so mad bonus points for recommendations of local menswear stores.
(2) He is short, and rather solid. (I wouldn't say fat.) What features should I look for in pants? Obviously, we'll be avoiding the bejeezus out of pleats, but what else should I be watching out for? (Wider legs or narrower legs? What manner of pocket placement? What kind of fabric? Etc?) I have very, very little experience with buying mens' pants, so even basic, general guidance re: this would be helpful.
(3) His shoe size is 5 1/2. This is problematic. The majority of mens' shoes simply don't run this small. I imagine we'll probably end up using zappos.com, but what should we look for? Does anyone have suggestions re: brands and styles of businesslike, men's shoes that don't look like something a 50-year-old would wear?
Thanks, all!
My pal, a recent college grad, just quit a miserable job and is about to start looking for clerical temp gigs. For the past few years, nearly 100% of his clothing has come from Army Surplus stores, but BTUs and tank boots will not cut it in an office environment. He meeds to buy some decent threads, and has come to me for help with the shopping. Eek!
I am quite good at buying clothes for myself, but I have no idea where to start with him. Here are the issues, as I see them:
(1) He is transgendered (FTM), but he has had zero surgery and no hormones. Also, he doesn't like to bind his chest because it's unconfortable. This, coupled with the fact that he is fairly short (5'3"-ish) means that people tend to read him as a soft butch instead of as a guy. I would therefore like to find professional-looking clothes and shoes that signal maleness as clearly as possible. Any suggestions for brands, etc? The shopping will probably occur in Seattle, so mad bonus points for recommendations of local menswear stores.
(2) He is short, and rather solid. (I wouldn't say fat.) What features should I look for in pants? Obviously, we'll be avoiding the bejeezus out of pleats, but what else should I be watching out for? (Wider legs or narrower legs? What manner of pocket placement? What kind of fabric? Etc?) I have very, very little experience with buying mens' pants, so even basic, general guidance re: this would be helpful.
(3) His shoe size is 5 1/2. This is problematic. The majority of mens' shoes simply don't run this small. I imagine we'll probably end up using zappos.com, but what should we look for? Does anyone have suggestions re: brands and styles of businesslike, men's shoes that don't look like something a 50-year-old would wear?
Thanks, all!
There are probably more good designed-for-women-but-unisex-enough-for-FTMs shoes here, though obviously not all of them will work.
Here's one, and here's another.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 10:05 PM on September 21, 2006
Here's one, and here's another.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 10:05 PM on September 21, 2006
What about shoes in boys' sizes?
Of course, you can go try stuff on and see how it actually looks. This would work better than casual advice from AskMe. I don't know Seattle at all, and scarcely know the States in this regard, but is corporate casual perhaps going to be in greater demand? Loose polo shirts may be a decent way of hiding buldges where they shouldn't be.
posted by Goofyy at 11:14 PM on September 21, 2006
Of course, you can go try stuff on and see how it actually looks. This would work better than casual advice from AskMe. I don't know Seattle at all, and scarcely know the States in this regard, but is corporate casual perhaps going to be in greater demand? Loose polo shirts may be a decent way of hiding buldges where they shouldn't be.
posted by Goofyy at 11:14 PM on September 21, 2006
Go to Nordstrom's. Their salespeople are on commission, so the service is great and they will work with you to make it work. They may have a "personal shopper" service which is even better -- you stay in a private fitting room, a salesperson runs around the store and brings suitable things to you. This might be extra good in your friend's case if he wants extra privacy for the fitting room experience. (I.e., you could have frank discussions about binding etc without feeling like all the guys in the larger fitting room are listening in.) Their clothing tends to be on the expensive, classic, conservative side, which is probably a good bet if your friend wants to read clearly as male. They have a good selection and they have in-house shoe shop. (I'm not affiliated with them, but I find them to be a great one-stop-shop for professional clothing, and the salespeople can be incredibly helpful if you're inexperienced in buying professional clothing.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 11:44 PM on September 21, 2006
posted by LobsterMitten at 11:44 PM on September 21, 2006
Trousers with wide, straight legs work well on men with solid builds. They are also helpful if your friend happens to have more hip than the average man. He should wear darker colored shirts if he is concerned about the transparency of lighter colored shirts.
On shoes, is it possible to find boys' dress shoes that fit his feet? I've seen preteen boys wear some pretty classy looking loafers to events like weddings, and that type of shoe will work in an office environment.
The downtown Nordstrom's on 5th might be a good place to check for clothes. They have personal shoppers there who can help your friend figure out what cuts will work with his body. Their services are free and your friend can buy as much or as little as he wants. It will feel like a very foreign scene to someone who swears by army surplus clothing but your friend can get a good start on his wardrobe in an afternoon this way. Once he has a good idea what sort of clothes he is looking for, he can also check Nordstrom Rack on 2nd as there are often some great bargains there.
posted by rhiannon at 11:48 PM on September 21, 2006
On shoes, is it possible to find boys' dress shoes that fit his feet? I've seen preteen boys wear some pretty classy looking loafers to events like weddings, and that type of shoe will work in an office environment.
The downtown Nordstrom's on 5th might be a good place to check for clothes. They have personal shoppers there who can help your friend figure out what cuts will work with his body. Their services are free and your friend can buy as much or as little as he wants. It will feel like a very foreign scene to someone who swears by army surplus clothing but your friend can get a good start on his wardrobe in an afternoon this way. Once he has a good idea what sort of clothes he is looking for, he can also check Nordstrom Rack on 2nd as there are often some great bargains there.
posted by rhiannon at 11:48 PM on September 21, 2006
Go to Nordstrom's. Their salespeople are on commission, so the service is great and they will work with you to make it work
I went to Nordstrom in downtown Seattle recently, and the salespeople were not very helpful. I'm female, and was shopping for a men's dress shirt and the salesguy was very embarrassed, obviously so. This isn't exactly typical though, but if your friend is hard to fit in menswear (and I'm just talking sizing issues here) they may not know how to work with the situation. That was part of my problem. Do ask a salesperson in Nordstrom or another large department store to measure (neck, arms, etc.) to find out how close you can get to a good fit in a dress shirt.
Try boys' shoes for feet though.
By the way, even if he doesn't like to bind, make sure he wears a men's t-shirt or tank top underneath the shirt. It will help somewhat, and give a cleaner line without actually binding.
posted by digitalis at 12:52 AM on September 22, 2006
I went to Nordstrom in downtown Seattle recently, and the salespeople were not very helpful. I'm female, and was shopping for a men's dress shirt and the salesguy was very embarrassed, obviously so. This isn't exactly typical though, but if your friend is hard to fit in menswear (and I'm just talking sizing issues here) they may not know how to work with the situation. That was part of my problem. Do ask a salesperson in Nordstrom or another large department store to measure (neck, arms, etc.) to find out how close you can get to a good fit in a dress shirt.
Try boys' shoes for feet though.
By the way, even if he doesn't like to bind, make sure he wears a men's t-shirt or tank top underneath the shirt. It will help somewhat, and give a cleaner line without actually binding.
posted by digitalis at 12:52 AM on September 22, 2006
Best answer: Passing is, IMHO, the combination of lots of little things that we don't think we notice but we do.
When one person sees another, the first thing (before race, height, good looks, kicks, whatever) they notice is sex. That's why it's so disconcerting to not be able to figure it out.
It's pretty easy to get to the questionable point with just wearing clothes made for the sex you ID as.
What I call "straight man clothes" would probably work best for your solidly built friend. Brands like Chaps and Tommy Hilfiger and Ralph Lauren Polo. They are boxy and run big (instead of small). Brands like Eighty-Eight and Kenneth Cole and Bruno and Ben Sherman (these lists are obviously not inclusive) are what I call "gay boy clothes" and they are tighter fitting and often riskier with pattern and fabric choices.
Both types of clothes will result in presenting male because our eyes and brains have figured out that x times out of 10 (x depends on where you live) those clothes mean male. But there are things beyond clothes that he can do to pass better.
After assessing clothes, people look at the chest... o O (Is that a boy or girl? Well, are there boobies?). As silly as it is (cause we all know there are man boobies out there), it's what we do. Binding will help. There are some great articles on binding (I know you said he doesn't want to, but I'm throwing the links out for anyone else interested) here and here (this site seems to be down right now, but I don't think it's permanent).
If the chest is flat (cause we all know that there are girls that play for the A team), we look at the head. We look for our clues in the haircut style, facial hair, and sideburns to help us out. Make sure your pal has his hair cut in a masculine style. I would also recommend that he shave (even if there's nothing to shave, real men do not have peach fuzz). And sideburns help a lot too (just make sure they are cut straight, as opposed to diagonally which is so totally girly omg). Again with the "this is so silly" commentary cause we all know that bearded ladies and boys with ponytails are out there.
After the boobie check and the hair check, I suppose a) we just decide he's a short stocky pretty-boy male; b) we become more open minded; or c) our brains explode.
Also, with the shoes, clothes, haircut, underwear, whatever... make sure it's not made for a woman. There is magic that occurs on a butch/FTM body when clothes actually designed for their bio shape are worn. It can be an insta-lady identifier for folks on the street and will work against his efforts to pass.
Disclaimer: This advice comes to you from your garden variety butchie dyke who feels very comfy as a gal, but dern it if I can't go into a public restroom w/o troubles or pay for my groceries w/o being called sir.
posted by 10ch at 7:34 AM on September 22, 2006 [2 favorites]
When one person sees another, the first thing (before race, height, good looks, kicks, whatever) they notice is sex. That's why it's so disconcerting to not be able to figure it out.
It's pretty easy to get to the questionable point with just wearing clothes made for the sex you ID as.
What I call "straight man clothes" would probably work best for your solidly built friend. Brands like Chaps and Tommy Hilfiger and Ralph Lauren Polo. They are boxy and run big (instead of small). Brands like Eighty-Eight and Kenneth Cole and Bruno and Ben Sherman (these lists are obviously not inclusive) are what I call "gay boy clothes" and they are tighter fitting and often riskier with pattern and fabric choices.
Both types of clothes will result in presenting male because our eyes and brains have figured out that x times out of 10 (x depends on where you live) those clothes mean male. But there are things beyond clothes that he can do to pass better.
After assessing clothes, people look at the chest... o O (Is that a boy or girl? Well, are there boobies?). As silly as it is (cause we all know there are man boobies out there), it's what we do. Binding will help. There are some great articles on binding (I know you said he doesn't want to, but I'm throwing the links out for anyone else interested) here and here (this site seems to be down right now, but I don't think it's permanent).
If the chest is flat (cause we all know that there are girls that play for the A team), we look at the head. We look for our clues in the haircut style, facial hair, and sideburns to help us out. Make sure your pal has his hair cut in a masculine style. I would also recommend that he shave (even if there's nothing to shave, real men do not have peach fuzz). And sideburns help a lot too (just make sure they are cut straight, as opposed to diagonally which is so totally girly omg). Again with the "this is so silly" commentary cause we all know that bearded ladies and boys with ponytails are out there.
After the boobie check and the hair check, I suppose a) we just decide he's a short stocky pretty-boy male; b) we become more open minded; or c) our brains explode.
Also, with the shoes, clothes, haircut, underwear, whatever... make sure it's not made for a woman. There is magic that occurs on a butch/FTM body when clothes actually designed for their bio shape are worn. It can be an insta-lady identifier for folks on the street and will work against his efforts to pass.
Disclaimer: This advice comes to you from your garden variety butchie dyke who feels very comfy as a gal, but dern it if I can't go into a public restroom w/o troubles or pay for my groceries w/o being called sir.
posted by 10ch at 7:34 AM on September 22, 2006 [2 favorites]
I wear a women's 5-1/2 shoe and have had remarkable success with children's shoes in the recent past. This problem should be fairly easy for you to solve. You might also want to get some cushioned/gel insoles, though, as it seems that many children's shoes don't have very cushiony soles.
You can measure the foot and find your size using a sizing chart like the one on Land's End's weg site.
posted by amtho at 7:55 AM on September 22, 2006
You can measure the foot and find your size using a sizing chart like the one on Land's End's weg site.
posted by amtho at 7:55 AM on September 22, 2006
web site, not weg site. Penance = the actual link: children's shoe sizing chart
posted by amtho at 7:59 AM on September 22, 2006
posted by amtho at 7:59 AM on September 22, 2006
Best answer: if he doesn't bind his chest, try to work solid, substantial (i.e. tweed) vests into his wardrobe, which will nicely flatten the appearance of teh tettas. he can wear them easily over mens' oxfords (shirts).
and i also recommend that he wears ties definitely, as they send the clear message of 'i am a man'.
another thing he might want to experiment with is to work nice fedoras and 'man-style' hats into his wardrobe. mens' hats you cannot mistake for anything else. another benefit to wearing hats is that it will most certainly add some much-needed height to his small frame.
>>What I call "straight man clothes" would probably work best for your solidly built friend. Brands like Chaps and Tommy Hilfiger and Ralph Lauren Polo. They are boxy and run big (instead of small).
My god, i SO don't recommend that. DO NOT try to disguise the womanly curves with large/baggy clothes, as it will just add to that ambiguity, and a sense that something is 'off'. Therefore, I strongly recommend instead of shopping in the mens department (where even xsmall will be too large), find young adult, teen, and boys sections of department stores. you need to go towards tailored, NOT boxy and big. trust me on this. and, an added benefit is that he will also save big $$$ that way. If you really are a RL fan, browse the RL line for teens.
I also recommend NOT caving for the 'stuff-made-for-a-woman' that can pass for manly stuff, like many people recommended with womens' shoes at the top of this discussion. this guy is fighting hard enough to assert his gender the way he wants, so i think it's a mistake to leave anything to doubt in his mind about what other people might think about his style and clothing.
posted by naxosaxur at 9:23 AM on September 22, 2006
and i also recommend that he wears ties definitely, as they send the clear message of 'i am a man'.
another thing he might want to experiment with is to work nice fedoras and 'man-style' hats into his wardrobe. mens' hats you cannot mistake for anything else. another benefit to wearing hats is that it will most certainly add some much-needed height to his small frame.
>>What I call "straight man clothes" would probably work best for your solidly built friend. Brands like Chaps and Tommy Hilfiger and Ralph Lauren Polo. They are boxy and run big (instead of small).
My god, i SO don't recommend that. DO NOT try to disguise the womanly curves with large/baggy clothes, as it will just add to that ambiguity, and a sense that something is 'off'. Therefore, I strongly recommend instead of shopping in the mens department (where even xsmall will be too large), find young adult, teen, and boys sections of department stores. you need to go towards tailored, NOT boxy and big. trust me on this. and, an added benefit is that he will also save big $$$ that way. If you really are a RL fan, browse the RL line for teens.
I also recommend NOT caving for the 'stuff-made-for-a-woman' that can pass for manly stuff, like many people recommended with womens' shoes at the top of this discussion. this guy is fighting hard enough to assert his gender the way he wants, so i think it's a mistake to leave anything to doubt in his mind about what other people might think about his style and clothing.
posted by naxosaxur at 9:23 AM on September 22, 2006
If you're at all concerned about Nordstrom's salespeople not being helpful, you can call ahead to the men's department and say that you want to set up an appointment with their most experienced representative. Your friend can explain that he is hard to fit and looking for a first professional wardrobe, and wants some experienced help. (Alternatively, the personal shoppers are mostly women, in my experience, which I guess might help? Again I think you can call ahead and ask for someone experienced with fitting men's clothes.) They also should have an in-house tailor; getting his clothes tailored will make him look more in-proportion and more professional, and it will definitely be worth the money.
Your friend should not wear a fedora, or anything else that the normal office-dwelling man doesn't wear. That will scream "I am in drag" or "I am a very stylish butch woman". (So: opaque white or blue button-up shirts. Possibly a conservative blue vertical stripe would be ok on the shirt. Completely dull ties, for starters; would a President wear it to give a TV speech? Ok then. Navy or dark gray pants. Nothing very stylish, but all of it properly tailored. You could even get some pleat-front Dockers khakis to complete the illusion of fashion-clueless middle-of-the-road dude.)
A final thought on shoes: he can try the kids' shoes. But if they give him foot pain, he should try to find shoes that are made for his kind of feet -- maybe adult female foot bone structure is importantly different from children's foot bone structures. Your friend should not fool around with shoes that might permanently injure his feet. (I'm not saying kids' shoes will; I'm just saying that he should be paying attention to how his feet respond to avoid possible bad effects.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:07 AM on September 22, 2006
Your friend should not wear a fedora, or anything else that the normal office-dwelling man doesn't wear. That will scream "I am in drag" or "I am a very stylish butch woman". (So: opaque white or blue button-up shirts. Possibly a conservative blue vertical stripe would be ok on the shirt. Completely dull ties, for starters; would a President wear it to give a TV speech? Ok then. Navy or dark gray pants. Nothing very stylish, but all of it properly tailored. You could even get some pleat-front Dockers khakis to complete the illusion of fashion-clueless middle-of-the-road dude.)
A final thought on shoes: he can try the kids' shoes. But if they give him foot pain, he should try to find shoes that are made for his kind of feet -- maybe adult female foot bone structure is importantly different from children's foot bone structures. Your friend should not fool around with shoes that might permanently injure his feet. (I'm not saying kids' shoes will; I'm just saying that he should be paying attention to how his feet respond to avoid possible bad effects.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:07 AM on September 22, 2006
Response by poster:
Wow, guys! Thanks! I feel like I've got a much better handle on this now! (But by all means keep it coming.)
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 10:20 AM on September 22, 2006
Wow, guys! Thanks! I feel like I've got a much better handle on this now! (But by all means keep it coming.)
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 10:20 AM on September 22, 2006
On the shoe tip, maybe Hush Puppies: unisex, comfy, lighter'n air.
posted by Scram at 2:36 PM on September 22, 2006
posted by Scram at 2:36 PM on September 22, 2006
There are sports bras that sort of flatten the chest, but also make breasts look less like two separate bumps. We victims call the effect "uniboob." Some of these bras are made in breathable fabrics and are stretchy enough to work out in, so they're not uncomfortable. Look for "firm support" or bras for "very active" sports. Hint: If breasts are big, lie down to put on a front-fastening sports bra.
Pads like Dr. Scholl's can make loose shoes fit more snugly.
A sport coat can really add to the maleness factor. Shoulder pads can very easily be added if the person's shoulders don't fill up the space inside the jacket. Jackets don't have to look formal.
posted by wryly at 2:37 PM on September 22, 2006
Pads like Dr. Scholl's can make loose shoes fit more snugly.
A sport coat can really add to the maleness factor. Shoulder pads can very easily be added if the person's shoulders don't fill up the space inside the jacket. Jackets don't have to look formal.
posted by wryly at 2:37 PM on September 22, 2006
Ok, I love Nordstroms as much as the next 4'11" woman. But I got something different out of that post. I noticed the "not currently employed" and "temping" and "just out of college" and most importantly "Army Surplus." These little details lead me to believe your friend does not necessarily have the cash for a Nordstroms bonanza.
This being the case, check out the mens department at Target. They have recently started carrying suits and other men's businesswear (at least they have at the Alderwood store. YMMV, but you're Seattle area, right?). Yes of course you will probably have to get the pants hemmed a little shorter, but you can outfit him in an entire suit for under $100.
Furthermore, Mervyns is having a sale on men's pants that lasts through Saturday. Big selection of stuff for $20.
And one more thing! Do not forget Men's Warehouse, or that Lands End hems to order. I don't know what I would do without Lands End. I have no idea if they still do that "virtual model" thing on their site (I think you have to set up an account), but if they do you can plug in your friend's measurements, and see a) what they recommend he wear and b) pretty much how it will look on him.
posted by ilsa at 3:12 PM on September 22, 2006
This being the case, check out the mens department at Target. They have recently started carrying suits and other men's businesswear (at least they have at the Alderwood store. YMMV, but you're Seattle area, right?). Yes of course you will probably have to get the pants hemmed a little shorter, but you can outfit him in an entire suit for under $100.
Furthermore, Mervyns is having a sale on men's pants that lasts through Saturday. Big selection of stuff for $20.
And one more thing! Do not forget Men's Warehouse, or that Lands End hems to order. I don't know what I would do without Lands End. I have no idea if they still do that "virtual model" thing on their site (I think you have to set up an account), but if they do you can plug in your friend's measurements, and see a) what they recommend he wear and b) pretty much how it will look on him.
posted by ilsa at 3:12 PM on September 22, 2006
It's been said before, but if he doesn't want to bind, sports bras are a good option. Title Nine, which you can google, do the 'Frog Bra, which works up to about a C cup, as it's pretty much made of lycra. If he has a larger chest, you can search for online stores who stock vests for biomen with gynecomastia (big male breasts), which should compress the chest, without being as restricting as a binder. There are good binders out there as well, which arn't of the bandage variety, but they're kinda expensive, and I can only say they're good relying off other people's opinions. So...yeah. ^^
As for shoes, teenage boys' ranges and custom ranges should stock the shoes. If in doubt for office wear, I'd say lace up Oxfords, with a capped toe. Black ones. They work with the vast majority of formalwear, and they're only really worn by men. If you get a men's shoe, they'll fit a man's size, so like it has been said before, insoles are a good addition to the waldrobe. But get men's shoes, because women's shoes look skinnier on purpose.
I'd agree also in getting a tailored, but not too tight fit. If he still looks feminine, try not to go with white shirts by themselves; try wearing a vest or loose knitwear over the top to disguise the chest. Try different fits of trousers, but wearing them on the hips and choosing the pair that doesn't go "I have girl hips" is a good idea; choose something which doesn't make the hips look like the widest part of the leg. Pockets ought to be normal and central on the back if possible, but I don't think it matters. I dunno!
If tailored items are too expensive, buying a longer pair of trousers and having them taken up will do, whether you take them to a tailor's or to a mother. Fitted items are best for smart clothing, though. You ought to look for a white shirt, a pale blue and a white with blue stripe for basics. Two or three ties, solid colours or dark stripes, a black pair of trousers and a jacket will start off the waldrobe, and shouldn't be too expensive. More stuff can always be added later.
And..yeah. Peach fuzz needs to come off, if there's any. Because you might as well wear a plunge bra while you're at it.
posted by nemi at 9:13 AM on August 26, 2007
As for shoes, teenage boys' ranges and custom ranges should stock the shoes. If in doubt for office wear, I'd say lace up Oxfords, with a capped toe. Black ones. They work with the vast majority of formalwear, and they're only really worn by men. If you get a men's shoe, they'll fit a man's size, so like it has been said before, insoles are a good addition to the waldrobe. But get men's shoes, because women's shoes look skinnier on purpose.
I'd agree also in getting a tailored, but not too tight fit. If he still looks feminine, try not to go with white shirts by themselves; try wearing a vest or loose knitwear over the top to disguise the chest. Try different fits of trousers, but wearing them on the hips and choosing the pair that doesn't go "I have girl hips" is a good idea; choose something which doesn't make the hips look like the widest part of the leg. Pockets ought to be normal and central on the back if possible, but I don't think it matters. I dunno!
If tailored items are too expensive, buying a longer pair of trousers and having them taken up will do, whether you take them to a tailor's or to a mother. Fitted items are best for smart clothing, though. You ought to look for a white shirt, a pale blue and a white with blue stripe for basics. Two or three ties, solid colours or dark stripes, a black pair of trousers and a jacket will start off the waldrobe, and shouldn't be too expensive. More stuff can always be added later.
And..yeah. Peach fuzz needs to come off, if there's any. Because you might as well wear a plunge bra while you're at it.
posted by nemi at 9:13 AM on August 26, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
I am completely in love with these Franco Sarto shoes, which are designed for women but should look pretty unisex, especially with slacks. They're so comfortable, and they have a little bit of a heel which should help with the short-ness.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 10:02 PM on September 21, 2006