Til Death Do Us Part..maybe...

September 16, 2006 3:25 PM

Why are people today so lacking in morals?

I have a good friend at work who I think a lot of. Last week I overheard her (we sit pretty close and she talks fairly loudly so I hear more usually than I want to) talking to her mother about lying to her husband about her whereabouts on a Friday night. Later she told me the story, she is going out with friends her hubby doesn't like and she plans to tell him she's at her mother's.

Since this has happened I hear her on the phone all the time with these girl friends obviously that her husband doesn't like, laughing about how she was 'good' for a while, but now she just feels like being 'bad.'

I feel different towards her. I thought I knew her fairly well. Now I have trouble even meeting eyes with her. I know her husband. He's an alright guy. Am I being too judgmental? Should I just ignore it all? Is this kind of deception (white lies?) truly that common between spouses?

posted by CwgrlUp to society & culture (44 comments total)

People lie to each other all the time, especially in relationships. it gives me the willies, too, and I know I would think less o a person after the sequence of events you describe. This sounds like something you can't "do something" about, but I wouldn't ignore it, either, in the sense that this information tells you something important about her. (In case you were contemplating forming a closer friendship with her outside work, for example.)

By the way, her mom is willing to cover for her, so that should give you a sense of how ingrained her willingness to do this kind of thing is.
posted by caitlinb at 3:37 PM on September 16, 2006

Also, I can't type.
posted by caitlinb at 3:38 PM on September 16, 2006

It's important that we overgeneralize grossly and assume that one person's actions are indicative of "people today so lacking in morals."

Confirmation bias much?
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:38 PM on September 16, 2006

you and her husband need to lighten up. if she feels the need to lie to him because he deems certain of her friends unworthy or unnecessary to hang out with (is she his wife or his daughter) -- then, good riddance

you on the other hand, if youre questioning the morals of the human race because you overheard somebody lying...

shit, just dont look outside.
posted by Satapher at 3:40 PM on September 16, 2006

What makes you think people lied less 25, 50, 100, or 5000 years ago?
posted by b1tr0t at 3:46 PM on September 16, 2006 [2 favorites has favorites]

No, people are not any more lacking in morals today than they were yesterday.

Yes, you are being too judgemental. Does this person's activities affect your day to day life? If not, why worry about what they're doing? If so, ask them to stop.

Are you sure you are just upset because you are hearing about activities you don't agree with, or are you upset that your good friend is behaving in a way that is contrary to your perception of her? Is this in some way excluding you from her life? Is it possible that you are jealous because you've never had the opportunity to be 'bad' too? Basically where I'm going here is, are you sure this isn't more about you?

Because if not, the simple solution is just to ask her not to speak so loud that you can overhear her. Problem solved.
posted by quin at 3:49 PM on September 16, 2006

Well hang on a minute. Shouldn't you be looking over in the husband's direction with this judgemental attitude? What kind of man in this day and age, makes it necessary for his wife to lie about who she spends time with?
posted by saturnine at 3:55 PM on September 16, 2006

plus, what if this girl thinks that having TWO!! margaritas is being "bad" -- are you sure you aren't projecting daytime TV into boring ordinary life?

i say youre being an old maid -- throw the first stone if you can, otherwise, make your boss happy and get back to work :)
posted by Satapher at 3:55 PM on September 16, 2006

I'd argue that while the level of societal / community responsibility (I guess you could call it 'morality', if you had to) has totally collapsed in the last 50 years, the level of personal morality is mostly unchanged.
posted by wackybrit at 3:59 PM on September 16, 2006

man it's too bad the main title 'til death do us part... maybe' doesn't show up until you click the link, because I'll bet there will be some snipes about 'chatfilter' etcetera.

that said, I get where you're going. you're now having a tough time respecting your friend because you guys don't seem to have similar ethical standards.

I would (gently) confront her with the fact that you a) really like her as a friend and b) are having a difficult time maintaining respect for her owing to the fact that she's being evasive and dishonest with her husband. Now, I'm not trying to be snarky but her relationship really isn't any of your damn business (sorry, but it just isn't) but if you carefully couch it in terms of how overhearing these conversations in the workplace environment causes you stress and makes you uncomfortable, maybe she'll get the hint. If she's truly a close friend, she may even appreciate the perspective. Seriously some folks are just oblivious about this stuff, and she may just be doing it as a shallow, attention-grab a'la 'oh tee-hee, look at how BAD I am' without really meaning to act on it in any serious fashion.

mismatched moral / ethical / personal accountability standards is a pretty common dilemma I face, and only you can be the judge of whether this is a deal-breaker on the friendship, or just an annoying habit of your friend's.

For me getting older has helped - I'm no longer quite so idealistic, which helps. Not in the sense of being 'jaded' because I honestly do still think people are capble of being basically good, or at least not a total pain in the ass. But my experience helps me be a little more realistic in my expectations of people. If a friend does something disappointing, I take a step back, consider how good a friend is this in "x" other ways then figure out if I can deal with their personal failings and foibles (cos let's face it we all have them), or if it's something common and annoying enough that I can't handle it.

Things I've learned in the twentyish years I've been living out on my own: Nobody's perfect. Life isn't fair. No one was put here on earth to live up to YOUR standards, only theirs. Now, I'm not saying you should lower your standards, but once you get a grasp on those concepts, things do get a whole lot less stressful.

The answer to your header question is that quite a few (but definitely not all... just the really obvious and egregious examples, who I think are actually in the minority) of younger folks today are lacking in morals because it's simply not taught. Kids these days are taught that they all have 'special little snowflake' status. They're taught to expect a lot, and that if they screw up, someone will come to their rescue, and they'll never have to take the blame. Manners, morals, ethics, grace under pressure and personal responsibility have gotten buried in a flood of distractions, instant gratification and (I have to stop myself from doing this too, so I'm not exempt) that overwhelming feeling that's constantly marketed at us from the media that we're all ENTITLED to a pony... a huge-ass vehicle... a five thousand square foot house with six bathrooms... a 'get out of jail free' pass for every fuckup we make, bla bla bla.

sorry this was long. I hope it helped.
posted by lonefrontranger at 4:01 PM on September 16, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

and on review, what quin said.
posted by lonefrontranger at 4:05 PM on September 16, 2006

People lie, just as they have always done. This is still wrong, just as it has always been.

Weep ye mortals, for here is thy doom.
posted by blue_beetle at 4:08 PM on September 16, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

I'm of the opinion that people in the "good ole days" were considerably more rotten, not less. Child labor, coal mines, Triangle Shirtwaist Fire, wife-beheading kings, "indulgences" from the Church, institutionalized wife-beating, madhouses, twelve year olds getting married, slaughtering other desert tribes because someone said God promised them that land, parents mutilating children to make them more pathetic beggars, dueling, corporate monopoly, etc.

That having been said, being unable to meet the person in the eyes, while a reaction, is a gross overreaction to a woman just trying to maintain her friendships despite what sounds like an overly-controlling husband.

I'm quite sure that if all of your personal activities were to come to light, there would be a few people willing to boo-hoo you. Spouses lie to each other all the time, sometimes merely by omission.
posted by adipocere at 4:15 PM on September 16, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

I am not at all sure how the husband has had become the villan for for some posters--"overly-controlling", "judgemental attitude". There is nothing in the post to indicate that either is the case, simply "her husband does not like her friends". I was not aware that one spouse can not express an opinion about the other's friends--that does not in anyway say the other spouse can not say, "i understand you do not like them but I am going to be with them tonight". If he becomes abusive etc. that still does not suggest that lying is the appropriate solution. I am hard pressed to imagine very many cases where lying about ones behavior to a spouse does anything but erode trust and the self respect of the prevaricator. BTW, we are not talking about lies of omission but rather active engagemnent. Cowardice is cowardice whether from a man or woman and is not an excuse for lying.
posted by rmhsinc at 4:31 PM on September 16, 2006

We can't assume he's an over-controlling husband. We don't know if he forbid her outright from seeing these friends or if she's just lying to avoid bringing it up.

It might be a bit rash to jump to conclusions about it, because you don't know how much of a betrayal of confidence it is. Maybe if a week later the husband talks to her mother and finds out what happened he'll bring it up with his wife and they'll laugh about how she tried to be so sneaky and got caught out, and it won't be anything huge at all. Or maybe it will be something devastating, maybe this is, to him, a big breach in trust. You can't know for sure.
posted by twirlypen at 4:32 PM on September 16, 2006

People (you and me included) are imperfect. The only advice I have is, be sure you're not jettisoning a friendship just because you found out that your friend isn't perfect -- if you keep that up, you won't have many friends left in the end! You have to decide which imperfections you can live with in your friends and which make you want to not be friends with them anymore. Lying to a spouse is bad, but there are some cases where it's ok and some where it's not ok. (And all of them are time-honored traditions, nto newfound inventions.) I have no idea which case this is; here are some possibilities and you can judge for yourself what the right reaction is in each.

- It could be that your co-worker is a deeply amoral person, baldly lying about dirty deeds to her husband; that she is doing something that eventually will break up her marriage; that she is betraying her totally innocent husband. It could be that she is a small-minded, immature, self-absorbed person, unable to control her partying (or whatever); that she will do whatever is most convenient for her at the moment regardless of commitments she has made in the past. If I found that a friend was this kind of person, I wouldn't carry on being (close) friends with them.

- It could be that she and her husband have a basically good marriage, and they are honest with each other for the most part. Maybe he only sort of dislikes the friends, but still wants to see her friends, and is talking in exaggerated terms about how dishonest and bad she is being (for a fun feeling of soap opera, or just as a joke, or because her standards for what's "bad" are tame).

- Maybe they haven't been together very long, and are still working through the terms of their marriage -- maybe this is an act of defiance or small-potatoes betrayal that's partly meant to bring the issue (of these specific friends, or of her autonomy or their joint social calendar more generally) to a head with him.

- Maybe they've been married a long time and have tacitly accepted that they will have some secrets from each other. Most marriages are this way, I think, and in many cases this is a good thing. It can be suffocating to have to share absolutely everything, and submit your every action to your partner's approval. (Incidentally, I suspect that partners in modern marriage have fewer secrets from each other than partners in years past, not more.)

- Maybe the friends really are a horrible influence on her, leading her into harm's way.

- Maybe they are totally benign and the husband, who superficially seems like a good guy, is cruelly cutting her off from them for some reason. It could be that he really is much too controlling, and that if you knew all the facts you would see why she wants to get out.


Only you know which of these is the more likely scenario, based on what else you know of her behavior. And in any case, it's up to you to decide for yourself whether to stay friends with her, how close to stay, and how well or badly to think of her.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:44 PM on September 16, 2006

Why are people today so interested in other people's business?

If everyone was totally honest with one another, would we even have a society? I don't think so. White lies and lies of omission are usually harmless and are usually just intended to make things easier for all involved.

Also, I think your perception of greater morality in the past might be at least partially due to the fact that people were more likely/able to cover something up in the "old days." Compare Clinton's sex life with JFK's, for example.

This woman is likely trying to spare her husband some mild consternation over who he thinks should and shouldn't be her friends. Or he might be more controlling than you think. Who knows? I happen to have a relationship where even these mild deceptions aren't necessary, but I doubt I would blame someone for them.

My point is that you're thinking about someone else's peccadilloes for no reason that I can see. Don't worry about it.
posted by lackutrol at 4:45 PM on September 16, 2006

I feel you on this. I know plenty of married couples that have had and are having affairs, lying, actively seeking other sexual partners. I scares me.

But, like most people have stated here, so what? It has happened, is going to happening, and is happening as I type this. The hard part is not judging the mistakes that people make. We judge. It is what we do to make decisions.

But don't give up all your friends because of their mistakes. You will end up without any friends to speak of.
posted by YoBananaBoy at 4:54 PM on September 16, 2006

Why are people today so lacking in morals?

The questions presumes they are. It can easily be demonstrated they aren't. People are as moral, amoral, and immoral as they've always been. People are people. Read history, read a few great novels, watch your family and friends, human nature hasn't changed a whit as far back as we can tell.

Am I being too judgmental?

For some, any judgmental is too judgmental. Up to you and what you think judgmental means. Does it mean you love someone and it hurts or does it mean you now have licence to hate? Depends what you mean.

Should I just ignore it all?

You can't ignore reality and remain well from a mental health perspective. Again depends though, if by ignore you mean give her the benefit of the doubt then sure, go ahead and ignore.

Is this kind of deception (white lies?) truly that common between spouses?

Unanswerable without knowing what she means by 'bad'. As asked already, is bad staying out an hour later than she said she'd be, or is 'bad' screwing around, gambling away the familys grocery money etc? To make an attempt though: it's very common for married people to have separate interests but perhaps less common and cause for concern if they're spending a lot of time in social activities they'd consider spoiled by their spouses presence. Caution though, this wouldn't indicate who's 'right' or 'wrong', just that maybe they're different and / or there might be something not so good with the marriage.
posted by scheptech at 4:55 PM on September 16, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

I would find this behaviour distasteful. I stopped seeing a friend because she was telling her husband she was with me when she was really bonking her sister's husband.

This is really several questions.
Are people immoral? Yeah, a hell a lot of them.
Were they always? I dunno about always, but I think probably yes. I think you need to have time to consider your ethics, instead of convenience.
Should you do anything? Probably not. It might be immoral, but it's not illegal and it's not life endangering.

I would tend to avoid this person, but be polite and courteous to them.
posted by b33j at 4:58 PM on September 16, 2006

When I hear someone say someone else is lacking morals I immediately correct them - don't you mean they are lacking YOUR morals? Live your damn life they way you see fit and keep your nose out of everyone else's life. Only God can point the finger...
posted by any major dude at 5:20 PM on September 16, 2006

I'd never call something like this a white lie. If all you heard is true, and no more, it's not the end of the world or anything, but it's not a white lie. A white lie is "Well, I can't tell you've gained weight" or "No, really, this fruit salad is perfectly good."

I think you're getting a lot of flak because the outside part of your question was phrased in a way that made it look religious. If you'd framed it in terms of ethics, I think you might have gotten more helpful answers. And if your example had been different, obviously people wouldn't have been all "OMG how dare the husband have an opinion about her friends."

A few years ago, I had an experience that affected me similarly. I had a wonderful high-school math teacher -- brilliant, dedicated to improving the quality of the department, completely devoted to his students, entirely opposed to our cheating in any way. One day he comes into class and we notice that his TI-83 has a snazzy blue cover. It's the same old black calculator; he just has a cover that goes with one of these. So we ask him where he got it, and he says, "I called Texas Instruments and said I bought a blue one in a store, but once I got home I saw the cover was broken. So they just took my information -- they didn't even ask for the serial number -- and they sent me this cover! You guys should do it too!" My opinion of a person had never changed so quickly. I still realize he's wonderful on many counts, but I'd never expected he'd do anything that dishonest.

I do think that ethics (or individual morals, or whatever) are currently at a fairly low point. I don't think it's an extremely dramatic change or a permanent change; I think it fluctuates just like it has throughout human history. So if you go back, on one hand you have Honest Abe walking miles to give back a nickel of change, and George "I cannot tell a lie" Washington, but on the other hand, you have Yankee peddlers and nutmeggers.

I think ethics are generally low today partly because honor isn't valued very highly. Honor makes people do very stupid things, definitely, but it can also uphold the quality of one's ethics. I don't know if it's worthwhile to be so invested in personal or family honor, though, because while it can keep you on the "straight and narrow" to uphold the family name or your reputation, it also leads to duels, honor killings, and so on.
posted by booksandlibretti at 5:30 PM on September 16, 2006

...And of course, "Honest Abe returns that nickel" and "I cannot tell a lie" were both apocryphal stories made up after their deaths in order to make them seem larger than life anyway.

That, and Lincoln allegedly detested being called "Honest Abe."
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:08 PM on September 16, 2006

I've heard people talking about being "good" and "bad" in regard to food sometimes. Some people take a real guilty pleasure in eating delicious, unhealthy food and talk about it like it's completely scandalous.
posted by leapingsheep at 6:10 PM on September 16, 2006

Well, b&l, I can only speak for myself, but my perception of the question had nothing to do with it being religious or otherwise. My reaction was more along the lines of "who does this person think she is, posting to a website about some behavior of a co-worker that is no business of hers?"

You can set yourself up in life to be surprised by evil and capriciousness and a lack of care or to be surprised and delighted by the wonderful things people do for one another sometimes. I'm doing the latter. And, b&l, your definition of "that dishonest" seems a little off to me--so he took a few cents off a big corporation--so what? Sure, it's a bit unethical, but who cares? If you put a quarter in your candy machine and got an extra gumball for your $0.25, would you mail it back to the manfacturer? Some perspective, please.
posted by lackutrol at 6:17 PM on September 16, 2006

I think ethics are generally low today partly because honor isn't valued very highly.

The perception of lower ethical standards at least is driven by a couple of things.
a) there's little people won't talk about these days, on TV, on the net, in person - there are a lot fewer public conversational taboos, this is all a result of not wanting to 'sweep problems under the carpet' but now we have the opposite result, everyone wallowing in every variety of er, stuff there is - my grandmother would simply not have believed a presidential candidate like a Mr Dole would go on TV to talk about erections or lack thereof in exchange for money... or I guess really for any reason
b) somehow the culture has become just extremely me-oriented, partly a result of us all being raised and educated by the marketing machines of the worlds corporations, it's all about me me me - as in the recent H3 ad where a woman suffers a very minor social slight and feels compelled to 'get her girl on' by buying a giant gas-guzzling road-dominator to deflect further social slights
posted by scheptech at 6:22 PM on September 16, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

Yeah, DoctorFedora, and the nutmeggers thing may be apocryphal too. I'm just pointing out that we may think of the past as perfect, but obviously there are also not-so-great elements to stories of the past.

Lackutrol, your gumball analogy is a bad one. It's more like buying a gumball, eating it, and then going to tell the storekeeper that the machine never gave you a gumball in the first place so you'd like a refund, please. There's a difference between benefiting from another's mistake and conning someone else for your own benefit.
posted by booksandlibretti at 6:33 PM on September 16, 2006

Setting all this talk of morals and ethics aside, I don't understand why you think this is your business? It has nothing to do with you, it's about your friend and her husband's relationship, not you. Besides, what do you really know about your friend's relationship with her husband? Maybe there's something going on there that necessitates her lies. You have no idea.

You ask why people are so lacking in morals nowadays? I ask why people are so judgmental nowadays.
posted by echo0720 at 6:37 PM on September 16, 2006

You're right - I can't assume that the husband isn't overly-controlling. Of course, I cannot assume that the original poster isn't simply hallucinating having friends, etc. The "can't assume" game isn't particularly useful.

If she feels the need to lie to her husband about what is a typically innocuous activity, going out with friends, then, yeah, his feelings are probably more than simple disapproval. Might not be. Expectation value says that it's worth a shot, though.
posted by adipocere at 6:51 PM on September 16, 2006

you mean people were better in days gone by?

you might wish to reconsider your judgement of your friend if you are the one listening in on her private conversation. moral people don't do that.
posted by krautland at 6:55 PM on September 16, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

Did you bother to ask your friend why she felt compelled to lie to her husband about spending time with her friends? You seem to be missing the big picture here; the lie is a symptom of the problem, which is that her husband apparently has such a problem with your friend's friends that she feels the need to lie about it when spending time with them. That doesn't sound like a healthy relationship to me...controlling who a spouse associates with is a sign of an abusive relationship. Not something an "alright guy" would do.

It's a lot easier to be speculative and judgmental than to make an honest effort to understand what's actually going on. PS: the latter is much more "moral" than the former.
posted by apple scruff at 7:20 PM on September 16, 2006

Today?
posted by delmoi at 7:36 PM on September 16, 2006

A more accurate (And less troll-ish) title: "Why is one person that I know lying to her husband? And should I get involved?"

Has nothing to do with "people" or "these days". Or hell, even morals.

Answer: If they're your friend, talk to them about it.

If you don't know the person well enough to talk frankly about their marriage, then you need to 100% forget about it. Shit or get off the pot as my dad would say. It's none of your business.

Honestly it sounds to me like the "friend" is just trying to impress her other friends by showing that she's not under her husbands control. As a man I constantly hear men saying things like "The wife doesn't want me playing poker, but she thinks I'm working late" when it's all bullshit. The wife knows he's playing poker and probably doesn't care. It just makes him look like he's got an upper hand over the ball and chain. And a good excuse to leave early when he's loosing.
posted by Ookseer at 8:31 PM on September 16, 2006

Today, I had a friend give me a long moralizing lecture when I mentioned I was interested in attending a party full of champagne and strippers. I was only interested in drinking some good booze, dancing, cheering, and having a good time.

This would cost a good buck yes, but it wouldn't hurt me financially and I am 31 years old, and single. For reasons I don't really understand, I have never had stable or sucessful relationships. I've never cheated on a girlfriend, and if I get the chance to settle down and have a family I will do so with all the loyalty and honour I can generate.

I really didn't appreciate this lecture. I spent over a year of my life teaching poor people to use computers while I slept on a foam mattresss in an office with no glass in the windows. I am a good boy, but I am allowed fun and even though my social life is not successful I am allowed a little bit of mild escapism, fun and beauty in my life.

I am offended someone wanted to deny me that and expects me to be a monk.
posted by Deep Dish at 11:08 PM on September 16, 2006

okay a couple more things: and speaking for myself along with everyone else, gee, we're all inferring an awful lot about a bunch of anonymous electrons here.

one, I think the REAL title the poster used (that goes in the "title' bar on posting, and that NO ONE ever sees unless you remember to look at the upper r/h corner once you're inside the post), is quite different from the 'header question' - it's a damn shame that's the link header you see as the 'headline' on the front page, it is... at least in this case. I highly doubt the OP intended it to be an incendiary statement, as it seems to have become. To me it sounds more like a simple wail of frustration.

second, substitute the word ETHICS for MORALS. I'm going to assume there's a bit of war on semantics here -- but the way the question was framed, it seems more of an ethical disconnect than a moral one (not to put words in the OPs mouth or anything). And a lot of folks really jumped on the ZOMG!!!11 YOUR HUSBAND HE'S A CONTROL FREAK!!! or ZOMG!!!1 YOU'RE SO JUDGEMENTAL!!! (um, Pot? meet Kettle, nice of youall to drop by...) bandwagon, and might could be taking that a tetch far.

third, I think (reading the question and inferences as well as I might) that the main issue buried in here is the OP is being made uncomfortable at work by overhearing loud conversations about somewhat work-inappropriate topics. Now. REGARDLESS of whether the OP's friend is talking about 'this one time? at band camp?, or telling fibs to her husband, or shoplifting dildos, or, hell I dunno, having wild orgiastic chimpanzee sex with the entire Dallas Cowboys offensive line, these kinds of things are really not comfortable discussions to have to overhear in an open office environment. Been there, done that, had to have the writhingly uncomfortable discussions with the instigator and ultimately HR about it.

fourth (and again I'm speculating wildly here but I think I'm in good company cos it seems to be an AskMeFi tradition) - the OP sounds rather young. This might indeed be their first experience with feeling this sort of (mild, yes, but it still stings a bit) betrayal by someone they trusted as a close friend, especially if they're new to a work environment. I know at my first 'real grownup' office job, I felt pretty darned shocked and betrayed to discover people I looked up to as mentors, managers, bosses, etc... standing around the water cooler eagerly talking smack like a bunch of sixth graders. These days? not so much.

To the OP: I still say its okay to say something to your friend about how uncomfortable having to overhear this stuff makes you. HOWEVER: her relationship with her husband? Still none of your damn business. Please, spare yourself some angst. Your ethical standards? They're high. That's great, seriously, and don't stop doing that. But for your own sanity, don't get so caught up in these high standards that you hold everyone else you know to some arbitrary pinnacle of conduct that only you can quantify. No one needs, or really wants to be put up on a pedestal, cos it's drafty up there and pigeons will shit on your head. Understand that your friends (and parents, and lovers, and colleagues, and roommates and next door neighbours) are all people. And people... ALL of us, make dumb mistakes. All the time. We lie to our spouses, surf Mefi all day at work instead of finalising contracts, bounce checques, fuck up our credit, drive drunk, cheat on tax returns, etc. etc. etc. Does this make us bad people? well (some of) that depends on how we react if and when we're caught out or called on it.

Life is often messy. Generally I prefer it that way.
posted by lonefrontranger at 1:04 AM on September 17, 2006

The ridiculous thing is that the original anonymous poster has almost certainly done something that an onlooker would find equally 'immoral' (since no-one's perfect all the time). "Judge not", and all that.
posted by reklaw at 5:59 AM on September 17, 2006

Um, not anonymous... oops. Still applies, though.
posted by reklaw at 5:59 AM on September 17, 2006

I agree. The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:57 AM on September 17, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

I would (gently) confront her with the fact that you a) really like her as a friend and b) are having a difficult time maintaining respect for her owing to the fact that she's being evasive and dishonest with her husband.

No, no, no. This is none of your business. You are being too judgmental, and you're rushing to conclusions. You don't know the background. How do you know he's really an alright guy anyway? And even if she is lying to her husband to go out with her friends, that's a private marital problem and it doesn't mean she's cheating on him. You confronting her - gently or not - will just make you look like an ass.

Now, if she asks your opinion about the subject, there's nothing wrong with saying you wouldn't do the same, and explaining why.
posted by Amizu at 11:08 AM on September 17, 2006

Get over it. People lie to their spouses b/c they are annoying about stupid stuff. I also don't think you have much basis for making the generalization that people have no morals from your limited evidence.
posted by matkline at 1:56 PM on September 17, 2006

People never really know what is going on in other people's relationships. If this friend of yours is feeling the need to sneak around behind her husband's back, something is out of whack - and it's an even chance the problem lies with him rather than her. You don't know. You can't know, unless you live with them.

Re being "bad," I often say this about eating "forbidden" foods or having more than one drink or failing to clean up the kitchen. Some people toss the term around quite carelessly. I wouldn't read too much into it.

I agree that a totally forthright person would not lie to their husband about their whereabouts (excepting cases of abuse, where deception becomes a necessary survival skill). Keep it in the back of your mind as a data point and if she shows other signs of being untrustworthy, then just don't trust her. But it's none of your business otherwise.
posted by joannemerriam at 2:49 PM on September 17, 2006

Why are people today so lacking in morals?

They have cameras?

(sorry, but it had to be done.)
posted by Vervain at 5:37 PM on September 17, 2006

Let's see if I can shed some light on some things. It isn't my business, correct. But as I stated in my question, she talks loudly, she sits close to me and hell, I can hear her even with my radio on. What I don't hear that way, she comes over and TELLS me in casual chatting. And to top it off, she wanted me to cover for her the other day and I got left holding the bag when hubby called and wanted to know why she wasn't back from lunch when she was supposed to be.

Nope, not that young (26). And only naive if you think it's naive to expect wives not to straight up lie about their whereabouts to their husbands.

The couple has been married 7 yrs I believe. These friends of the wife, as she told it to me, are excessive drinkers and will screw anything that moves. Hubby doesn't want her with them because of those things.

Shouldn't have thrown the word morals in there. That obviously bunches some peoples' panties. My mistake. My question wasn't worded well. I was simply curious how many people thought this was a common practice to lie to your spouse in this manner. "What they don't know won't hurt them" kind of thing.
posted by CwgrlUp at 6:08 PM on September 17, 2006

Geez.

So there's this person. She's loud about her personal life at the office, she asks you to lie for her and all of her favorite friends are alcoholic sluts.

Wow.

And this is a friend?

I repeat my previous advice: If she is actually a friend, talk to her about it. (And drop her as a friend. Asking someone to lie for you is a real shitty way to treat anyone.)

Otherwise forget about it. And maybe talk with HR in your office about the woman with the loud mouth sharing her personal life with everyone.

(And yeah, 26 is pretty young.)
posted by Ookseer at 7:51 PM on September 17, 2006