First programming job

September 6, 2006 9:36 AM

I'm a competent self-taught programmer with zero commercial experience and no relevant qualifications. How do I go about getting my first job?

The problem is that everything I've worked on so far I've done by myself. I've done some fairly elaborate things (have a look at Projects), but it doesn't seem like employers care. All the jobs I've applied for have rejected me for lack of experience. They seem to care a lot less about my degree (Media Technology) not being Computer Science, though obviously it doesn't help. It also doesn't help they have no non-programming jobs to put on my CV/resume.

So what do I do? I'd like to sell myself to employers as a useful junior programmer who can get things done, since I'm not really in any position to sell myself as an expert-who-you-must-hire. But the people hiring junior programmers are only interested in recent graduates with internships, and the people handing out internships are only interested in current CompSci students. Am I screwed?

I'd probably be looking for PHP/MySQL/JavaScript/Web 2.0 work (though not web design). I can also write desktop applications for Macs (which no one is hiring for). I know zero Microsoft technologies. This in London, UK.

(btw The answer I'm expecting is "Find a non-profit that wants a website designed". That doesn't sound to me like something employers will care about much, especially if I want to do actual programming. Am I wrong?)

posted by cillit bang to work & money (17 comments total)

I suggest getting involved with open source projects. It might not get you a job, but having them on your resume will look good.
posted by cmonkey at 9:51 AM on September 6, 2006

1) Put up a website with a "portfolio", even if you don't like doing web design. If you have a good designer friend who can do the artsy part for you all the better.

2) Does locale matter? Is this a full time thing or not? If it's full time and you're willing to relocate, just check out all the usual suspects (monster, jobs.mefi etc)..

You're not screwed, but you're going to need to apply to and get ignored and/or rejected by a lot of places until you find a place willing (read: "desperate enough") to hire someone with no proven experienec as of yet.

Everyone gets a first job somehow... usually it takes persistence and a willingness to take crappy pay, etc for the first job.

Also, make sure your resume and cover letters are good - plenty of advice can be found via google on that.
posted by twiggy at 9:52 AM on September 6, 2006

I suggest getting involved with open source projects. It might not get you a job, but having them on your resume will look good.
posted by cmonkey at 11:51 AM CST on September 6 [+fave] [!]

I kind of disagree with this. It won't look bad, mind you, but your average employer won't even know/care what open source is ... even a lot of web development firms. It has the potential to look good, but the investment vs. reward ratio seems too high considering that at this time, your free time should probably be spent job hunting rather than working for free.

I'm all for open source and I'd suggest you get involved at some point -- I'm just saying I don't think that's where your time is best spent while you're trying to find a job and pay the rent.
posted by twiggy at 9:55 AM on September 6, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

Put up a website with a "portfolio", even if you don't like doing web design

This is my website. Is this what you were thinking of?

You're not screwed, but you're going to need to apply to and get ignored and/or rejected by a lot of places until you find a place willing (read: "desperate enough") to hire someone with no proven experienec as of yet.

That's what I hoped. Any thoughts on where to find such people?
posted by cillit bang at 10:07 AM on September 6, 2006

Find a small company that's willing to take a risk on you. Don't apply for big companies with a formal process; look for ads on Craigslist. (But don't take any hokey jobs where they can't provide proof that they can pay.) I hired several programmers that didn't have any experience when I owned my own company. Some of them didn't pan out. Some of them really got the job done, and done well.

The big thing, if you get an interview, is to *know your shit*. If you're confident, know the area of expertise that you'll be required to have, and you know how to solve problems, you'll get jobs. I would test programmers that had no practical experience by having them sit down at a computer and solving a problem that I could solve in three lines of code while I watched via VNC. If they were setting up an object or function structure, I knew they weren't for me. If they jumped right on over to php.net and figured out the pre-made functions they needed, and solved the problem quickly, I hired them.

I posted my job in newspapers, on craigslist, and by sending emails out to my local networks -- sports league, a group of friends that drank beer together, and a local web marketing group that met twice a month. Craigslist by far had the best rate of return for me.
posted by SpecialK at 10:41 AM on September 6, 2006

By the way I hope you're not linking on your resume to a Broken Webapp
posted by bitdamaged at 10:41 AM on September 6, 2006

I'm a self-taught programmer, but prior to that I had 20+ years work experience in another field.

I launched myself by setting up as a small business and doing all the web work i could find. This was in 1996, so the landscape's a bit different now. The first year was lean, but I got by. I eventually started getting longer-term programming contracts, which finally led to fulltime gigs with good companies.

Consider taking some short programming courses that quickly lead to some sort of certificate. Example - some sort of night-school course that leads to a "web developer" certificate after 6 months. Maybe become an "Apple Certified developer", if there is such a thing. Any sort of certification would give you a toe-hold.

If you're young and have few expenses, consider an internship with a larger shop. you'll get tons of real experience, and if you have eny potential whatsoever, the company will usually shortlist you for the next opening. if nothing else you'll get resume-filler and a good reference.

I have a friend who got involved with a big open-source project, that has a corporate partner (eg partners like IBM, Sun). this involvement led to a well-paying fulltime gig.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:47 AM on September 6, 2006

By the way I hope you're not linking on your resume to a Broken Webapp

Bugger. The app is running but Squid is caching the error page from when I rebooted the server this afternoon. I need to tweak my cache commands.
posted by cillit bang at 10:53 AM on September 6, 2006

Emphasize your transferable skills - ability to be organized, communications, etc.

Seconded from above: small company; coursework and certificates on resume.
posted by matildaben at 11:49 AM on September 6, 2006

Sad to say, but sorry, you're screwed. With your CV, you've got little to no chance of getting a gig. It's cruel, but it's true.

Your first problem is your lack of one of the two things that every employer will be looking for: a decent degree, or years of relevant experience.

Your second problem is your skillset. PHP/MySql/JavaSscript is what your average developer is supposed to know (or be able to pick up) aside from their core skills. Those core skills should include an industry standard language such as C++/Java/C#, alongside database experience specifically applicable to Oracle/SQLServer/Sybase.

In addition to all this, you have to realise that, should your CV be massaged to the point that you get an interview, you'll still be going head-to-head with people with many years in the industry. Both the interviewers and the other people that they've interviewed will be able to smell bullshit from a mile away.

As far as open source contributions go, forget it. The only thing that counts is commercial experience. If somebody didn't think that you were worth paying for it, it's not worth mentioning.

Sorry to be so negative, but you've got a right to know what you're up against.
posted by veedubya at 2:14 PM on September 6, 2006

So what do you recommend veedubya?
posted by cillit bang at 2:51 PM on September 6, 2006

I'm also a self-taught programmer, and beyond not having a relevant degree, I'm not even a high school graduate. I've never had a problem finding a job.

I caught a break early on, and it was because of experience with open source software. I'm not sure why you're getting such pessimistic responses about this. As someone who has hired and interviewed a lot of programmers, this is definitely something I look for. Education isn't that important to me, and I've yet to run into a hiring manager who feels it is for this line of work.

Experience is important, though. Not really because it's there on paper like a degree, but because it gives you perspective and wisdom that people can pick up on in an interview. Get your first job and really learn from it. The workplace is your college. Learn something new or learn to do something better every day.

As for how to land that first job, you might consider entering the world of system administration first. That's where I started. I had worked with linux and apache, and had learned how to set up and troubleshoot them enough to be a competent unix admin.

Degrees never, ever come up in hiring sysadmins that I've ever heard. The bar for entry is much lower, and you have a great opportunity to pick up programming skills.

A good sysadmin spends 80-100% of every day automating things. This means programming. It'll be shell scripting at first, but it's a short hop to perl and suddenly you're a real programmer. 2-4 years of this, and you can consider hopping the fence over into being a "real" programmer.

A former sysadmin actually has a leg up on people with fancy degrees in finding a programming job, provided that they spent time automating and putting systems together. They've managed production systems, so they've seen code fail dozens of ways, and generally have a better understanding of the flaws in production code than the people who built it.

Sysadmin or major contributor to an open source project. I think either puts you in a good position with your background.
posted by hutta at 3:23 PM on September 6, 2006

No, you're not screwed. It'll be harder for you than a compsci grad but you'll find something. Remember that a first gig is just a foot on the ladder: it's always easier to get another job once you're already in one.

I always look for practical experience over qualifications. If I were you I'd create a site which talks a recruiter through 3 of your best projects in detail - emphasise your work in planning, design & build, obstacles overcome, time taken etc. If they're commercial projects so much the better but even self-directed stuff is useful evidence of your abilities.

I'd probably avoid working on open-source stuff - it would give me a warm glow to see it on a CV and it's evidence that you can work with a team (albeit one you've never met IRL) but I wouldn't treat it with any huge degree of importance. At this stage, I think your time is better spent applying for jobs. Or learning a new language. You know my feelings on java though...
posted by blag at 3:38 PM on September 6, 2006

I dunno. I guess that what you need is a friend in the industry that can 'big you up'. Somebody that can say, "He might not have the experience, but he can do the job." If that friend has the respect of the people that he works with, you've got an in.

Unfortunately, I can't do this for you, because I work in a different position than what you'd be looking for. I, basically, do the back-end development for city firms.

Alternatively, you need to get yourself some commercial experience in Java or C#. I just don't know how you'd do that.

In all honesty, I know this sounds shitty, but here's my suggestion: Lie like fuck on your CV. If you genuinely believe that you can do the job, then pad your CV, and read up on every book and internet site that you can find that has any relevance to the job that you're going for.

Also check out this: ContractorUK. Go there, put in 'php', and 'mysql', and have a look at the results. Seems to me like I was a little harsh, and that maybe you'd be good to go for the jobs listed there. Tailor your CV and send it to the agents listing the top five jobs. Do this every day.

As far as dealing with agencies go: know your CV, and when they ask you if you know XYZ say 'yes'.
posted by veedubya at 3:44 PM on September 6, 2006

Sod it, I'll take a gamble.

I've got a couple of smallish (but paid) PHP projects which I need building within the next month or so. It'll be proper, serious work with briefs and deadlines. If you're interested we'll go for a beer and discuss. Email profile etc.
posted by blag at 3:48 PM on September 6, 2006

I didn't finish high school, have no relevant qualifications, and have been (more or less) happily working in IT for about a decade in various capacities from web developer/programmer to sysadmin to 'network engineer' for a large web hosting company.

In my experience, experience is immensely more important than any bit of paper, although the more clueless your potential employer, the less true this is. If they don't have the knowledge to confidently judge your skills by talking to you and evaluating your previous work then you are SOL. On the other hand, in these cases one qualification is probably pretty much as good as another, for the same reasons.

So my tips would be:
- Yes, your portfolio is very important even if it is not comprised of commercial work, but particularly so if you are able to clearly articulate exactly what you achieved and how you did it.
- Yes, contributions to well known Open Source projects relevant in your field will be well received by a clueful employer. In your case these are probably things like the Apache project, Mambo or other OSS CMS's, PHP, CPAN, etc.
- If you can get in on the ground floor of any up and coming technology where there's potential demand but not too many people specialising yet, then formal experience is much less important to your employers.

For example, I got my start from being introduced to Linux when it was still version 1.something, and not long after that to Apache and eventually to an early incarnation of PHP. By the time those technologies were maturing and being taken up by employers I already had more experience with them than most other people in my local market, so my lack of qualifications and commercial experience (and the fact that at that stage I couldn't program my way out of a wet paper bag) didn't matter much.
posted by imbecile at 4:10 PM on September 6, 2006

What your post sounds like is that you're trying to get a job by going down the route that people with relevant qualifications and experience go, which makes me think you're going about it the wrong way.

In your position, because you don't have those facets to bring to the table, you have to sell yourself to employers. And the big question is, how are you selling yourself to employers? Because you literally have to go out and sell yourself - not wait for something to be advertised and then get shot down in the competition: taking that path is a bit like turning up at Stamford Bridge and asking if anyone needs a football supporter. I'm sure there are *plenty* of people in London looking for someone with your skills - you just have to go out and find them. This may sound a bit cliched, but you kinda have to imagine yourself as a door-to-door salesman: how many sales are you going to make waiting for someone to advertise that they need your product (you), compared to how many are you going to make if you go door-to-door offering people your product, and all the wonderful things that come along with it? Sure, this sounds much more work than browsing job sites and filling in application forms, but only the top percentile are going to get jobs with the minimum of effort.

I have a biology degree and worked for the police in the forensic science labs which I hated. I had done some HTML in an evening class and wanted to work in TV, so I spent ages writing a kick-ass cover letter emphasizing my transferable skills, put every London post production company in the Yellow Pages into a mail merge, and sent out 100 CVs with my reasonably generic cover letter (actually I was poor, so I hand delivered them all). Out if it I got about 10 responses, 3 interviews, 2 offers, 1 job - not a great ratio, but 1 is all you need. And in industries like post production, nobody knows anything about programming so they're not going to give you hard time, as long as you're adaptable and can show that you can do what they need.

Also, I took this approach because quite frankly waiting for jobs to be advertised, filling in forms and sending them off and then waiting for responses just took far too much time.

So widen your scope a little, play the numbers game, sell yourself well, and know that there's a hell of a lot of us out there in jobs that we never imagined doing. Good luck!
posted by forallmankind at 2:53 AM on September 7, 2006