strength for now...um....

September 3, 2006 9:05 PM

As a 22 year old, concerned, liberal citizen, should I join the military? (more inside)

Like the pundits say, we're over there now and we have to clean up our mess. I could keep bitching about the shit job the violent yeahdudes are doing over there, or I could anti up and do what I can over there. I'll stay informed, keep to my principles, and try to act as agent of the America I know and love.

Meanwhile, I get college tuition, training, and get to travel and take part of an important part of history.

Am i just being dumb?

posted by es_de_bah to society & culture (60 comments total)

There are plenty of liberals in the military. I suggest you drop the attitude that your fellow men are "violent yeahdudes", whatever that means, but if it seems like a good idea to you in general, it probably is.
posted by evariste at 9:09 PM on September 3, 2006

Make sure you understand the basic logic of war:
Old men save face by putting young men in harms way. Young men save themselves and their buddies by killing other young men.
posted by Good Brain at 9:10 PM on September 3, 2006

Don't do it. Its a horrible situation the current administration has gotten us in, and it is costing the lives of of thousands of American men and women your age. (Not to mention hundreds of thousands of Middle Eastern lives of all ages.) You could quite easily die, or quite easily be maimed for life. And you can't keep to your principles if they conflict with your orders - Army brainwashing, aka basic training, is designed to make sure of that.

Do you have any relatives who were in the Vietnam war? My uncle was, and while he is whole in body, it fucked up his mind permanently. He still has nightmares about it 30 years later. And his sacrifice, and the sacrifice of all the young men who died there or came back half-insane, was meaningless. If I could go back in time and talk him out of going, I would.

Gulf War II = Vietnam III.

Again, don't do it.
posted by Cranialtorque at 9:14 PM on September 3, 2006

I offer this perspective as a Canadian and New Zealander.

Your sense of duty and willingness to make right is laudable. Unfortunately, I do not feel this is a problem you can solve by stepping into it. Armies make war. If you wish to make peace, I suggest you look into medical, diplomatic, or religious service.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 9:17 PM on September 3, 2006 [3 favorites]

I would only join the military if I was 100% sure that was my calling. You're not deciding which laptop to purchase. This is a major life decision.

Since you're asking a website full of strangers I would definitely say NO. Stay home and read metafilter.
posted by justgary at 9:18 PM on September 3, 2006

I don't think that you should. I have a friend that's a captain in the Army, and he spent a lot of time in Iraq. The tales that he tells are unbelievable. There's definitely not room for an idealistic mentality - your labor is a commodity, nothing more - and it comes at great personal risk.
posted by Ostara at 9:20 PM on September 3, 2006

when the american military is used as a genuine army of national self-defence, then joining it is something you can take pride and self-satisfaction from

right now, thanks to our actions in other countries, you would be volunteering to be a pawn in someone else's game ... a game that has nothing to do with national self-defence ... and you are not going to make things better by joining

the america you know and love has been perverted
posted by pyramid termite at 9:22 PM on September 3, 2006 [2 favorites]

i think you are just being dumb. the current administration looks at the young as expenable. don't do it.
posted by brandz at 9:29 PM on September 3, 2006

expendable, that is.
posted by brandz at 9:30 PM on September 3, 2006 [1 favorite]

If you want to join then my only advice for you is to join as an officer. You'll be put into a position of leadership right from the start, and it won't be long after that where you'll be in a position of influence. If you do become an officer, you will have no choice but to lead by example. Officers are also provided with a better mechanism for providing suggestions to those above them, for taking initiative and for making decisions on their own. Just remember to trust what your sergeants tell you when it comes to the moral and welfare of your troops, they've been doing this for a lot longer than you have.

On the other hand, if you enter as a private then you won't make a difference, besides maybe providing comfort to like minded soldiers (you _will_ be in the minority, but you'll find more sympathisers than you expect). However, In groups we shrink, and when you're surrounded by those with a lower education and lacking natural leadership abilities (the two opposites of officers) you can expect to be bullied, and have no say on the outcome of most situations.

Trust me on this.
posted by furtive at 9:30 PM on September 3, 2006

If you enlist as a regular Army grunt, no one will give a damn about your principles, and your combat actions (if any) will be directed by orders and rules of engagement, which you generally have zero discrimination about obeying. You will not be in the Army to do social work, but to cause people to do the will of the U.S. Army, often at the point of a gun, despite what you personally may or may not think about the U.S. Army or its will at that moment. You may or may not be stationed in Iraq, depending on your MOS and unit assignments. If stationed in Iraq or another "combat zone," you may or may not be in a position to engage the enemy directly (it taking about 2 people in logistics and support to keep 1 American soldier comfortably supplied in theatre in the current, heavily outsourced Iraq conflict).

If you want to help people, seek to do so through an appropriate NGO. If you want to earn college tuition, there are thousands of companies with far more liberal tuition reimbursement programs than are offered by the U.S. armed services, and you'll do much better getting a job with nearly any of them.
posted by paulsc at 9:36 PM on September 3, 2006

No. Why risk throwing your life away to be in a position without any authority to help make things right? Yes, there are a few numbskulls over there that make our country look bad -- but I don't really believe that they're the majority of servicepeople.

The biggest problem is the Bush administration's policies, and you're not going to fix that by volunteering to get your head blown off while helping enforce them -- even if you do so honorably.
posted by jzb at 9:37 PM on September 3, 2006

You're not just being dumb. It's understandable that you'd want to do your part to help resolve the situation, however even that goal would probably be better served some other way. In other words, what Bora Horza Gobuchul said.
posted by benign at 9:37 PM on September 3, 2006

"Somewhere a true believer is planning to kill you. He is trained with minimum food or water, in austere conditions, day and night. The only clean thing on him is his weapon. He doesn't worry about what workout to do. His rucksack weighs what it weighs, and he runs until the enemy stops chasing him. The true believer doesn't care how hard it is; he knows he either wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 700 hours; he is home. He knows only the cause."

That is your enemy. If you are prepared to fight and you are a believer, you should join up. If you cannot relate to the enemy's principle of fighting to the death for your cause, stay home.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:38 PM on September 3, 2006 [4 favorites]

I could anti up and do what I can over there. I'll stay informed, keep to my principles, and try to act as agent of the America I know and love.

Dude, you will do what you're told or you will end up in a court martial. Or worse. Your capacity for doing even a small amount of good as part of the US military in Iraq is very, very small. Probably smaller than the capacity you have for doing good by voting, lobbying and persuading others to adopt different policies than the one your government now has.

Meanwhile, I get college tuition, training, and get to travel and take part of an important part of history.

You omitted the significant risks to your life and health and the likelihood (see above) that you will be forced to participate in actions that you find morally repugnant.

Am i just being dumb?

Yes. Touchingly stupid, but stupid.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:40 PM on September 3, 2006 [1 favorite]

I agree with much of the advice here. On the other hand there are tangible benefits that many would find appealing (if you survive the war), those which you mention - money, tuition, training, etc.
Any chance you could join as some kind of support staff rather than as a private-front-line-pawn? Why not join the intelligence forces? You might make more of a difference there; learn a few languages, maybe become a translator, or researcher. Thats training too, and its an important part of the war effort, obviously. You might be able to make bigger contributions there rather than on the front lines. Different people have different aptitudes, obviously. And you could still die, of course.

As for liberals not being in the military, I think its true that there arent that many; but then one could well wonder if that isnt all the more reason to join?

My practical mindset says: on the one hand you know this is a pawn's game -- on the other hand you want to help and you'd appreciate the benefits and learning. In that case it seems to me you should be able to find a position that fits those needs: something in research, translation, or other kinds of support over there. You'd be close enough to danger even with that, I'm sure.
posted by jak68 at 9:43 PM on September 3, 2006

Join the Reserve or National Guard first. If you like it you can always go active duty.

If you hate it, then you are just stuck doing you 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks a year.

Yes, it is possible that you might get deployed, but it is a lot easier to be excused from deployment when you are a Reservist.

P.S. Join the Airforce!
posted by Beaufort at 9:47 PM on September 3, 2006

Both the original poster and some commenters seem to have some misapprehension that there is a problem with the lack of liberals in the US military. I put it to you that in the US as in my country the military takes its orders from the civilian government, and that therefore changing the character of your goverment is the most worthwhile way to focus your efforts. Being a "liberal" soldier means nothing when you are given "conservative" orders. (Scare quotes because I can't reconcile myself to US usage of these terms).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 9:48 PM on September 3, 2006

Well, I notice you say Military and not just Army...good start. I was a 22 year old liberal democrat when I joined the Navy and I loved it. There are plenty of intelligent people in the service and you ill find friends with similar interests. In fact, I bet we talked LESS politics when I was in than my friends and I do in school (culinary management school, $38,000 paid in full by the VA btw)

What are your interests? The Army offers some computer stuff, but you'll be doing it on the front lines most times. The Marine Corps is almost all front line and in the corps, no matter what you THINK your job is, they can always put a rifle in your hands and send you out as infantry.

This leaves the Air Force and the Navy. I absolutely loved being in the Navy and if you are at all interested in working on the Nukes, go Navy...the Air Force has the Community College of the Air Force and everything you do in the AF gets college credit, with the other services you have to find a school that will accept the courses and turn them into credits.

So, yes, its completley possible for a liberal demo to have a great time in the service, I got to live in Hawaii and Japan, I got to go on board an Aircraft Carrier for a week to elp train pilots, I even got a catapult shot off te boat at the end of the week and afer getting hurt, I now have a tax free check for the rest of my life along with the educational and medical benefits (I really don't suggest this final course of action, retiring at 42 and going on to a different career is MUCH better)

Feel free to email me if you have any more questions.

regina
posted by legotech at 9:50 PM on September 3, 2006

Join the Air Force and go in a Medical Career field. There tend to be more liberally minded folks in the medical career fields.
posted by bigmusic at 10:15 PM on September 3, 2006

I don't have any direct personal experience to offer, but I was once considering what you're considering. The notion of free money for college was mighty tempting. But I asked around and talked to some friends who had enlisted and served. With one exception, every man told me that when the time came, the money just wasn't there, or was meager.
posted by lekvar at 10:18 PM on September 3, 2006

Like the pundits say, we're over there now and we have to clean up our mess.

This is like trying to tell the elephant to leave their china shop when all it wants to do is clean up the mess it's made. It turns around and knocks things over, then bends over to pick up the pieces of what it just broke and tips over some more, in a never-ending cascade of destruction.

They want us out. Our mere presence, well-intentioned that it may be (or may not be, depending on your political persuasion), is making things worse. If you'd really like to help stabalize the place, stay away from it. Seriously.

You're needed for a much greater calling: this country needs all the patriots it can get.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 10:25 PM on September 3, 2006

Like the pundits say, we're over there now and we have to clean up our mess.

You mean: "We're over there now and you have to clean up our mess."

Where solutions are concerned, consider the wise brevity of Bora Horza Gobuchul.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:33 PM on September 3, 2006

I know this isn't a direct answer, but if your concerns are America's image abroad, traveling, and improving the world, have you considered The Peace Corps as an alternative to joining the military? To me, that seems like a better choice for an idealist looking to do some good.
posted by JMOZ at 10:55 PM on September 3, 2006

The best case scenario here is that you come back in four years with a lot of bad memories of things you wish you hadn't seen and done. The worst case scenario is that you come back a lot sooner than that, severely injured or dead.

As others have asked, what good do you think you can accomplish by joining, either for yourself or other people? You'll have no ability or authority to enact any positive change on the ground, and you'll be forced to submit to whatever orders come from the top or risk jail. The college money and free training are certainly not worth your legs or your life.

There's just no upside here. Only bad things can happen to you if you make this decision.

I hope you don't join.
posted by ThisIsNotASockPuppet at 11:14 PM on September 3, 2006

Join the Coast Guard. Go rescue people for a living.
posted by frogan at 11:35 PM on September 3, 2006 [1 favorite]

Join the military if you want to fight for the security interests of the United States, as interpreted by the United States government. Any other motive, incentive, or contemplated ways and means ought to be secondary.
posted by MattD at 5:30 AM on September 4, 2006

1. If you decide to join the military, then perhaps you should consider going into a medical career field. Even if you have no direct patient-care training, you can still likely become a healthcare administrator (helping to run the medical system).

2. Other options include religious support, cook, etc. These are not direct-combat positions, obviously, and will present *some* risk compared to not joining, but they too are important functions of the military and must be performed.

3. Join the Air Force.
posted by davidmsc at 5:32 AM on September 4, 2006

My brother joined up for very similar reasons. He hated it.

Your capacity for doing even a small amount of good as part of the US military in Iraq is very, very small.

You can delete the "in Iraq" part there and it's still true.
posted by languagehat at 6:22 AM on September 4, 2006

I think most of you are missing the point. The medics aren't the ones doing a shit job and they certainly aren't the "yeahdudes". If he wants to do what he says he wants, the go infantry officer, Then start getting geneva convention all over america's ass.
posted by furtive at 6:24 AM on September 4, 2006

Like the pundits say, we're over there now and we have to clean up our mess

Whether you should join the military depends on your view of the politics here. That is to say, what do you see as the nature of this "mess?" Is the root of the problem that the US installed government doesn't have complete control over the country? If yes, then joining the military and aiding that government in its efforts to take control would be a good way to support the cause. If, on the other hand, you think that the root cause of the problem is that the US is trying to force people at gunpoint to accept a government which they don't want, doesn't represent them, and isn't a democracy, then you should not join the military.
posted by Clay201 at 6:26 AM on September 4, 2006

Ditto the Air Force. Do your research on the web sites; then -tell- the recruiter what he/she has to offer you. Recruiter doesn't want to cooperate? Go the the next dealership down the block/cross town.

You can always go from reserves to active duty; but you can't go from active to reserves, and no matter your political interests or even sexual preference; you will find many people just like you in the 1.5 million personnel melting pot that the military is. Of course; if you want to wave a giant 'I hate such and such policy or so and so politician or I am this way and proud' flag; well duh. Fired from military is not unlike being extreme in many civilian jobs.

On a sick yet positive note; do you read much news about Air Force and Navy personnel getting wounded or killed very often?
posted by buzzman at 6:28 AM on September 4, 2006

as others have said, the military is not a rightwing granite block, the (insert minority here -- liberals/Jews/Wiccans/Trekkies/etc) are indeed a minority but they're there. so it's not like you'll be alone, but you'll certainly be part of a minority -- compare it to moving to, say, Texas, you'll still find liberals

but it all boils down to, are you temperamentally inclined to follow orders? because unless they're illegal (like, "shoot those prisoners in the head", "rape that lady", torture used to be illegal but it's really a grey area now) you'll have to do it, because it'll be your job to do just that

maybe you can find some other non-military, non-combat field to fulfill your aspirations? like (don't laugh) an intelligence job that doesn't require you to sign up, like FBI or CIA?

anyway good luck and my congratulations, I tip my hat to you young man
posted by matteo at 6:46 AM on September 4, 2006

if you're going to serve in the military, you should do so because you have a desire to provide service for your country. you shouldn't join because you want to make things better in iraq, etc. yeah, once you get over there you *may* make a difference, but yo8u shouldn't assume that you will ... or regard that as the *only* reason to join.

regardless, if i was in your situation, i would strongly consider it. becoming an officer would be great, if you pull it off.
posted by lester's sock puppet at 6:46 AM on September 4, 2006

(I mean of course intelligence work as an analyst, not a paramilitary/covert operations job)
posted by matteo at 6:47 AM on September 4, 2006

I joined the Marines in 1991 when I was about your age because I believed that I didn't have the right to have a say in how my country was run if I didn't serve my country first. Perhaps you feel the same way. This is absolutely not true. You gained the right to have a say when you gained the right to vote.

The idea that you would be able to effect positve change in the military is laudable, but totally unrealistic. They say "do", you do, or they make you wish you had. There will be no open dialog about the best way to do things. They own your ass for 4 or 6 years and that's that.

I got kicked out of the Marines during boot camp because I had a terrible asthma attack.

It was the best thing that ever happened to me.
posted by SteveTheRed at 7:10 AM on September 4, 2006

For your first full calendar year in the military, you'll get paid somewhere around US$15,000. That's gross, not net - that's before they take out deductions for taxes, social security, GI bill contributions, uniforms, and so on. When it's all said and done you'll earn about $9,000 in the first year.

Rush Limbaugh, proud war advocate, makes more than $9,000 per hour.

College tuition? Your college will reduce the amount of grant money they give you by the amount of the GI Bill payments. The guy next you with the same financial situation but no GI Bill money will just get a larger grant (=tuition discount) from the college.

You'll be sent to an environment where people are trying to blow your limbs off and leave you a one-legged cripple with shrapnel in your brain for the rest of your life. 20 years from now, Americans will be "Iraq War who?", and you'll still be pushing your wheelchair and trying to remember what month it is through the foggy haze of brain damage.

The people who blew you up in Iraq did it because George Bush wanted to make money for his friends, and therefore occupied their country and blew up their children.

Don't you think there's a reason that all of the young male pro-war conservatives in the U.S. are scared of serving in the military?

You won't be serving any noble, liberal causes; you'll be an agent of evil. The first thing beaten out of you in boot camp will be your noble liberal ideals.

General Smedley Butler was a famous Marine Corps leader in the early years of the 20th century. The largest Marine base in Okinawa is named after him. Here's what he had to say about war. I suggest you read it in full.
posted by jellicle at 7:26 AM on September 4, 2006 [1 favorite]

3 words: Gulf War Syndrome.
posted by kableh at 7:30 AM on September 4, 2006

Consider going to college first and joining the ROTC. You'll get some great leadership training, college money and will be able to start as an officer if you stick with it. Most importantly, you'll be able to get experience with military life while being able to still easily withdraw if you choose. And we'll still be in Iraq when you get out.
posted by gsteff at 7:47 AM on September 4, 2006

I love hearing opinions on being in the military from people that haven't actually been in it.

I'd have to agree that your experience can be VERY different, depending on which service you join. I joined the Navy, and had a positive experience - but I can't say that would be the case if I'd joined the Marines or the Army.

That being said - joining the Navy is not necessarily a fool-proof decision either. As the saying goes, "Choose your rate, choose your fate". In other words, some jobs are better than others.

The Navy probably saved my life. I couldn't get a commision as an officer when I first joined, so I decided to enlist. I became an Air Traffic Controller because the Navy said I could, and found one of the true joys of my professional life. Then I was picked up for Officer Candidate School (yes, I had a degree) and became an aviator. I travelled the world, I lived all over the country - and I matured a LOT. Before the Navy I didn't have much direction in life - and I'd like to think I came out of there a much better person.

It was not all roses and sunshine. It had its good days and PLENTY of bad days. I worked for plenty of assholes - but I also worked for some true leaders. I was given a lot of responsiblility, much more so than anyone else my age outside of the military. Show me a 22 year old out in civilian life who's entrusted to move an $85 million dollar aircraft around a flight deck... I didn't have much say in daily things, but if I had a valid opinion my superiors listened. I knew the deal before I joined, and accepted the notion of being given 'orders'. Another saying in the Navy - "no one is reponsible for your career except you", and my own personal one of "The Navy is what you make of it".

Administrations change, but the military keeps serving. I'm very proud of my service, and thankful to the military for the person it helped me become.

Oh, and as some around here know by now - I joined knowing full well that I was gay. I don't regret it for a minute.
posted by matty at 7:51 AM on September 4, 2006 [1 favorite]

regret what, joining or being in closet?
posted by matteo at 8:01 AM on September 4, 2006

I was in the military, and come from a military family. It is nothing like the people who haven't been in it think. This specifically refers to most of the posters above who lack any personal experience, but pick anecdotally from people who had bad military experiences rather that from the many others who served honorably and went on quietly to other things in life.

If you choose to go in, you will have a more intense experience than probably anything you have experienced. It is not about brainwashing. It is about learning to do more than you thought possible and to work as a team, in part to accomplish things under horrendously difficult conditions, but in larger part to be able to live together away from home and family. You will come out with a different attitude than when you went in - not a change in politics, but a change in how you you perceive yourself and your capabilities, the world and other people. Many things civilians value you might percieve as frivolous. But you will meet many, many other Americans from all walks of life and get to know them really well, much more so than almost anyone not in the military.

All that being said, gsteff's answer is the one I would recommend. I didn't go ROTC, but think it would give you the flavor without the committment, and if you stayed in, you would already have the college part done and paid for. I wouldn't recommend the National Guard, because many units are getting called up to go to Iraq, and if you are going to go, go with the first string.
posted by procrastination at 8:24 AM on September 4, 2006 [1 favorite]

isn't there something else helpful you could do that espouses your ideals?
posted by TheLibrarian at 8:24 AM on September 4, 2006

I have watched some of my friends and relatives go into and come out of the military. Maybe it has helped some people, but it didn't do them any good. I'm not tempermentally inclined, nor physiologically able, to serve, so I cannot speak from personal experience.

What I do know is that when you go in, you follow orders given to you, often by tired, overworked people who don't particularly care what you think. This goes on, far up the line. Aside from not deciding to engage in torture when ordered to, without a lot of decision-making, you aren't much of a moral agent. Robots, made of metal or meat, don't do good or do evil - they do what they're programmed to do.

If you sincerely want to do right by The Situation in Iraq (whatever that might mean to you), you're better off remaining a free moral agent. That way you can puzzle out what you think is wrong, look for some solutions, then attempt to apply them. If you join the military, you aren't going to be making a lot of decisions about policy.
posted by adipocere at 8:35 AM on September 4, 2006

Air Force.

(I live down the road from Ft Bragg....if you do decide to "go green" give me a holler, as you eventually will find your way here.)
posted by konolia at 8:43 AM on September 4, 2006

Matteo - I don't regret joining the Navy, and although I was certainly not 'out' by any means - there were plenty of people who knew I was gay. For me, my desire to serve in the military outweighed any perceived need to let my sexuality define my entire life.

It did weigh in my decision to finally leave the Navy (after 10 years or so), but it was just part of the whole equation. My world is not so 'black and white'.

My advice to the questioner - if you really want to join, then yes - join! But make sure you've educated yourself on all the options and consequences. Are you being dumb? Absolutely not.
posted by matty at 8:46 AM on September 4, 2006

The Montgomery GI Bill -- Plenty of Promises, Little Education Money
posted by Soliloquy at 9:04 AM on September 4, 2006

I did four years in the Coast Guard straight out of high school. I've had a lot of other friends & family in all four of the other branches, and I interacted with the other branches during my service. I'm speaking from a little experience.

You're not being dumb. The people trying to discourage you by saying you're dumb are the idiots here. Nice method of persuasion, guys.

What prevented me from re-enlisting on 9/11 was the thought that, with Bush & Co. in the White House, we were gonna wind up killing all the wrong people for what happened that day. I'm not normally so wise or precognitive, but this has certainly come to pass, hasn't it?

If you join up, whether enlisted or as an officer, your first couple of years will certainly be all about shutting up and following orders--even stupid orders. You can (and are in fact expected to) refuse to follow an illegal order, but this will also land you in a court martial wherein you will likely be punished for your good judgment... unless your refusal was in the heat of combat, wherein you may well get shot by your own guys.

If you want to serve, I do recommend the Coast Guard. Note that during Katrina, the Coast Guard was about the only Federal agency that had its act together; its only limitation was its perpetual underfunding. The Coast Guard offers its people better living conditions (though not as much financial aid), and you will have far less cause to doubt the worth of your activities or your training.

The Coast Guard, however, does indeed have people in the Iraqi theatre. They do indeed get shot at. They swear the same oath as every other service, they are under the same Uniform Code of Military Justice, and they get paid the same shitty salary. There is no reason to feel like you're giving less of yourself if you join the Coast Guard than any other service, because in all of them you risk the same thing: your life, and everything you have.

Remember that in any service, your activity and location are at the mercy of some guy in a headquarters unit who has never met you and has literally thousands of names on a sheet and thousands of jobs for those names to fill. There's NO guarantee that you'll do the job you wanted to do when you signed up. I did, but in hindsight I was astoundingly lucky.

Oh... and because of the GI Bill, I got my undergrad degree done debt-free. I also lived at home & worked through school, and my teaching credential set me on the road to my current ugly debt problem, but that GI Bill did indeed make one hell of a difference.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:25 AM on September 4, 2006

I was in the Army. In hindsight, it wasn't the best place for an anarchist, lesbian vegetarian, but one of the things I learned is that the military is not some right-wing, nutcase monolith. It was worth enlisting to learn that.

If you want to serve, go for it. Going Reserves is good advice (that is what I did), and, as a Michigander, I have nothing but respect and awe for the Coasties. Don't trust recruiters, get it in writing. Talk to more than one.
posted by QIbHom at 9:49 AM on September 4, 2006

Oh, and find out what the MOS really does. I was a 63B, which the Army will tell you is a light wheeled vehicle mechanic. It isn't. It is a glorified Jiffy Lube technician.
posted by QIbHom at 9:55 AM on September 4, 2006

"The Montgomery GI Bill -- Plenty of Promises, Little Education Money"... brought to you by Objector.org Consider the source. HOWEVER - I don't consider anything wrong with objecting.

Since I was enlisted before I became an officer, I contributed to the GI Bill - and I use it!

It's currently paying for my Master's Degree. Entirely.
posted by matty at 10:05 AM on September 4, 2006

If you join you will learn a lot; a lot more than you will outside the service. A lot of what you learn will be about large organizations, the mindset of fellow servicemembers, petty authoritarianism, good leadership. It won't be as much about the people you're fighting or the place you're in. Some of it will probably make you cynical; some of it will be amazing.

What other posters have said bears repeating: if you join the military, you WILL do what your superiors say. That's the whole point of the organization; it's not a democracy, it doesn't matter if you think the orders are short-sighted or cruel or pointless. You must be realistic about that, because how you respond to that fact is what will shape your experience.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:08 AM on September 4, 2006

help the world by increasing the number of people with guns?

you wanna change something, start a community garden.
posted by poweredbybeard at 10:48 AM on September 4, 2006

Don't do it.

Your idea of keeping to your principles and acting in the interest of your country is noble, but naive. Such notions are crushed in the military. When you join such a hierarchical organisation your progression within the structure will depend on the extent to which you internalise the values of your superiors. You will either fail or become a 'violent yeah dude.'

Plus, the rest of the world sees your country's foreign policy as vile rot. Your efforts would be better spent distancing yourself from your government completely, and getting yourself training that allows you to see parts of the world your country hasn't yet fucked up.
posted by verisimilitude at 11:43 AM on September 4, 2006

Please notice that none of the people who are against it claim any personal experience. Those who did it (including the anarchist, lesbian vegetarian - awesome!) are not complaining that they were ordered around like automatons. The military is more mission and goal oriented. For the most part, if you have a better way to get the mission done then you will get support for it, and generally not be ordered to do it a stupid way. The military is very much a meritocracy when it has the time, particularly in the office and NCO corps.

Don't expect to change the world, though. You will likely have a hard time acting the way you think you would like when things get heated. The system gets you to care about and be protective of other soldiers you are with, probably to the extent that your ideals will be suspended if things are rough. So much of our behavior is situational, and you can definitely get into weird situations in the military.

I am really surprised at all the vociferous unfounded responses in this thread. Normally, askMeFi is helpful and based on experience rather than vitriol. One quick story: as part of my service, I was walking though a hospital in Israel in my uniform. An old woman came out of her hospital room, grabbed my arm and tapped on the emblem on my shoulder. She didn't speak any English, but her daughter translated for me to explain that the US Army soldiers who liberated her from the concentration camp wore the same emblem 50 years before, and she had never forgotten it. The military can help as well as hurt. Don't forget it.

One last thing - instead of listing to random people who either have past experience or some obvious agenda, check out the words of soldiers themselves. That might give you a better idea of what it is like today.
posted by procrastination at 2:46 PM on September 4, 2006

I have a friend who joined the military in the 90s for liberal ideals. He eventually went AWOL. Nowadays, if you are deployed and go AWOL or disobey your orders, you are a felon at best and dead at worse. The military is not a democracy. You do what you're told or you're a liability to your entire team.

Join the Peace Corps instead. It meets every single one of your requirements. Furthermore, the AIDs crisis in Africa is much more dire than anything going on in the Middle East right now. And, you can leave when you want to, without worrying about stop-loss preventing you from ever living your life as your own.
posted by Skwirl at 2:57 PM on September 4, 2006

I second for the Peace Corps. They're going to be a little more competitive than the military, but don't let that stop you from applying.
posted by Laugh_track at 3:38 PM on September 4, 2006

I've never served, but my late father, my father-in-law, and my late mother-in-law all did. I have great respect for those who served, and who are serving now. But I think the operant word here is service. You don't have to be in the military to serve.

I had to register for the draft back in 1974, after the draft actually ended (I believe I was in the last lottery, the one that wasn't called up), but I'd long before decided that if I had to join up, it would be the Coast Guard. I never had to, but I still would.

My advice: Do Something. Peace Corps, whatever, just don't join the Army or the Marines. Yeah, they all have risks, and they may be risks you are more than willing to take, but at least you're not virtually guaranteed to be on the front lines...
posted by lhauser at 10:24 PM on September 4, 2006

As a 22 year old, concerned, liberal citizen, should I join the military?

No. If you value the ability to continue taking in atmosphere, oxygenating your blood, and exhaling carbon dioxide, no.
posted by WCityMike at 8:45 AM on September 5, 2006

I'll stay informed, keep to my principles, and try to act as agent of the America I know and love.

This is a commendable attitude, and I respect you for it. However, I do not believe it is compatible with what happens if you sign up for the armed forces. If you sign up for the armed forces, here is what happens:

You obey all orders or you go to the stockade. Where your principles conflict with orders, you obey orders or you go to the stockade.

Going to the stockade means you'll be dishonorably discharged, an ex-con for the rest of your life. It'll make it hard to get a decent job. So it's not really an option that's in line with your goals.

You will also probably be shot at. Intelligent, crafty men and women in their thirties and forties and fifties - people with the wisdom and experience of your parents' generation, but hardened killers - will be devoting their days to creating devious, undetectable booby traps for the purpose of killing and maiming you.

If the tuition benefits, pay, work experience and travel seem like enough to offset these facts for you, I'd say go for it.
posted by ikkyu2 at 4:39 PM on September 5, 2006